England v Ireland; Six Nations Round 3

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ENGLAND vs  IRELAND

Date: Saturday 27th February 2016
Venue: Twickenham
Kick Off: 16:50 (GMT)
Referee: Romain Poite (FFR)
Asst Refs: Nigel Owens (WRU), Alexandre Ruiz (FFR)
TMO: Shaun Veldsman (SARU)
TV Coverage: Live on ITV, RTE, FR2


Head to Head

Played - 119
Wins - 65/47
Draws - 7
Points - 1443/1037


Current Form

England:
W 40-9 v Italy
W 15-9 v Scotland
W 60-3 v Uruguay

Ireland:
L 9-10 v France
D 16-16 v wales
L 20-43 v Argentina


Recent Meetings

05/09/15 England 21 Ireland 13
01/03015 Ireland 19 England 9
22/02/14 England 13 Ireland 10
10/02/13 Ireland 6 England 12
17/03/12 England 30 Ireland 9



Teams

England


1 Joe Marler (Harlequins, 39 caps)
2 Dylan Hartley (captain, Northampton Saints, 68 caps)
3 Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers, 58 caps)
4 Maro Itoje (Saracens, 1 cap)
5 George Kruis (Saracens, 12 caps)
6 Chris Robshaw (Harlequins, 45 caps)
7 James Haskell (Wasps, 64 caps)
8 Billy Vunipola (vice captain, Saracens, 23 caps)
9 Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers, 54 caps)
10 George Ford (Bath Rugby, 19 caps)
11 Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs, 12 caps)
12 Owen Farrell (vice captain, Saracens, 37 caps)
13 Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby, 18 caps)
14 Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby, 17 caps)
15 Mike Brown (vice captain, Harlequins, 45 caps)
Replacements
16 Jamie George (Saracens, 5 caps)
17 Mako Vunipola (Saracens, 30 caps)
18 Paul Hill (Northampton Saints, 1 cap)
19 Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 44 caps)
20 Jack Clifford (Harlequins, 2 caps)
21 Danny Care (Harlequins, 56 caps)
22 Elliot Daly (Wasps, uncapped)
23 Alex Goode (Saracens, 20 caps)


Ireland


15. Rob Kearney (UCD/Leinster) 68
14. Andrew Trimble (Ballymena/Ulster) 60
13. Robbie Henshaw (Buccaneers/Connacht) 17
12. Stuart McCloskey (Ballynahinch/Ulster)*
11. Keith Earls (Young Munster/Munster) 47
10. Jonathan Sexton (St Mary's College/Leinster) 58
9. Conor Murray (Garryowen/Munster) 44
1. Jack McGrath (St. Mary's College/Leinster) 27
2. Rory Best (Banbridge/Ulster) Captain 91
3. Mike Ross (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
4. Donnacha Ryan (Shannon/Munster) 36
5. Devin Toner (Lansdowne/Leinster) 33
6. CJ Stander (Munster) 2
7. Josh van der Flier (UCD/Leinster)*
8. Jamie Heaslip (Dublin University/Leinster) Vice Captain 82

Replacements
16. Richard Strauss (Old Wesley/Leinster) 14
17. Cian Healy (Clontarf/Leinster) 56
18. Nathan White (Connacht) 10
19. Ultane Dillane (Corinthians/Connacht)*
20. Rhys Ruddock (St Mary's College/Leinster) 7
21. Eoin Reddan (Old Crescent/Leinster) 68
22. Ian Madigan (Blackrock College/Leinster) 27
23. Simon Zebo (Cork Con/Munster) 22

Youngs didn't have a good game, again. His little habit of taking numerous steps or trying a little step before releasing is really easy to read, he does it way too often. Add in his poor distribution and it wasn't a great day at the office. Things picked up with Care on the pitch, he has to start imo.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Youngs didn't have a good game, again. His little habit of taking numerous steps or trying a little step before releasing is really easy to read, he does it way too often. Add in his poor distribution and it wasn't a great day at the office. Things picked up with Care on the pitch, he has to start imo.

He is so frustrating to watch, sometimes he even points which way he is going. Ford has no chance to shine.

For those who think Robshaw is slow, I suggest you watch the game again with your blinkers off. He was regularly the first person in support or the guy leading the chargedown effort. He got back to recover two horrendous passes to no-one and turned one of them into Watson's try. I guess people will see what they want to see, though.

He's not as quick over the ground as some others, but he does have a knack of knowing where to be. It was also noticeable on Saturday that in the defensive system he and Haskell were often first out of the line and creating a dogleg that stopped Ireland getting to their outside backs. Ireland made most of their breaks from turnover ball getting to the wings or Sexton breaking through props near the rucks - whenever the defensive line was set Ireland had real trouble breaking it down.

Clifford's got the same positional sense and more speed - the breakdown penalty he won effectively ensured England would win the game - but is really in competition with Haskell (and in the longer term Underhill). Given Eddie sees Itoje as a lock who can cover 6 when needed, Robshaw's real competition is likely to come from Ewers (when fit) and possibly Hughes (when qualified). I think Ewers has a very good chance to take the shirt long term; not sure if Hughes has the breadth of skills and might be more of a challenger to Billy V.

What PF said.. Robshaw is not the most visible player but he's often the hardest working.

One thing I did think about Billy on Saturday is that he noticeably did less 'other work' outside of the carries on Saturday. I think it was only 3 tackles?

It made sense in the circumstances, that they were keeping him back for the carrying where he was so hard to stop and there was less need for him in defense, but normally there is more to his game.

lostinwales Itoje took up Billy's tackling duties, making more than any other England player. 16 though he missed 3. For a debutant not bad though.

Helps having a lock who plays like an extra flanker.

The Ireland game, although a good win, did highlight some of England’s issues – most of which were there under SL please note EJ. How a team can set up camp within 10m of the opposition try line for pretty much all of a half and yet only come away with 6 points to Ireland’s 3 is both baffling and disappointing. At the very least we need someone reading the game and slotting over DG to keep the scoreboard ticking over. The situation wasn’t helped by BY’s passing – it seems, like his brother, he struggles with the core skills of his position at this level, which is particularly disappointing given he was behind a pack going forward. It’s a bit weird when Robshaw can pass better than our SH. In addition the 2 FHs we have on the pitch at the same time seem to be confusing the game-plan a bit. I get the feeling that Ford is playing 2nd fiddle too much when decisions need to be made. Either make Farrell the FH or find a proper centre (you know Eddie, the type of guy who actually plays there club time).

The discipline problem WILL come back to bite us and will result in losing a tight game – when Hartley says we have a discipline issue you know we have a discipline issue. Whether this is due to low IQ or a desperation to win I don’t know but Haskell and Farrell in particular have to get the balance right here.

The missed tackles in midfield were worrying as in the 2nd half Ireland cut through a few times just too easily. Not sure if this was too lightweight a centre combination or poor communication. If Ire had been more clinical (and Nowell hadn’t been on) we could have maybe shipped 14 points there.

Finally, the IRB have got to find refs who aren’t so easily confused as Poite – he looked out of his depth too often. Wasn’t helped by his TMO tbh.

We give away too many penalties to win a tight games vs Wales I feel.

TightHEAD wrote:We give away too many penalties to win a tight games vs Wales I feel.

We (Wales) gave away a fair few ourselves against France.

Ford will come out his own with manu or slade outside him I think. Eddie is using Farrell to gain more experience, it seems clear ford is his first choice fly half, but in the circumstances of many and slade being out it makes send to use Farrell there (an idea I hated when announced at start of 6 nations)

Thought Ford didn't do much of anything. Was OK with a couple of clearing kicks, managed to drag down a couple of Irish attackers (eventually) and did a passing impersonation of a scrum half in difficult circumstances in the last 10 but didn't do much else. How much that is down to this week's hate figure Ben Youngs (burn him!) I don't know. The write ups about his performance do vary quite a bit.

For me the main problem youngs has, is the same one he's always had. It's more between the ears than technique. He's a thinker and not an instinct player (or his instincts are to take his time!). He just spends too long over the ball deciding what to do. Slow ball, no tempo. Care is a very different beast, but recently looks better as an impact sub than when starting.

I'd start with care every time regardless as watching youngs let the opposition defence get set whilst he ponders what to do frustrates the hell out of me.

Interesting game I thought. England put in some decent passages and really dominated the lineout. The game really suited Vunapola and he was really good as opposed to last year when we moved the England pack around a lot with clever box kicks. Ireland were a little less organised than usual and need to improve on their set plays.

As an Irish fan I'm not too down beat. I don't think we are too far off where we need to be. I was disappointed however, with parts of the game plan. There has been a lot of pressure on Schmidt to attack with ball in hand a lot more from the Irish media. It looked to me like the team is taking their criticisms too seriously as a various stages clever kicks down the line or chips ahead would have been much smarter than running everything.

As for Brown, while he is a hot head and I don't particularly like him much his head kick to Murray had no bearing on the outcome of the game at all and I don't really care if he is cited or not. It was probably unintentional even if reckless so I don't really care either way.

Well done England, comfortably the better side and should have been out of sight by half time.

Vainapolo was unplayable at times and we couldn't deal with him at all - Haskell and Itoje also gave us lots of problems too.

Impressed with the new guys - VDF, McCloskey and Dillane had impressive games and with the U-20's winning it isn't all doom and gloom but to be honest if we managed to win our remaining games we'll be doing well.

Tough 3rd season for Joe, a lot of improving and rebuilding to be done.

I thought Farrell had a decent game, looked to make little half breaks a couple of times on the right wing, and just wasn't able to get away an offload, but still recycled the ball well.

I'd expect him to make both of the kicks he missed, and the pass for the try was well executed but obviously meat and drink for an international fly half/centre

Individually he's doing well, but I'm just not convinced that the 10-12 combo is going as well as it could be.

Eddie has publicly backed Ford, so I'd rather see him go with a real 12 asap, whether its Manu or Slade in the summer, with Farrell pushing hard for the 10 spot off the bench

Ireland are not the same team when O'Brien is missing. They seem to lose some confidence and general belligerence, although the defence did well to be fair. Never rated Heaslip.
Very unusual for Ireland to be missing so many players or having some with injury issues only just behind them. Healy looks a shadow of his best form despite never being a top LH scrummager. Sexton takes a lot on his shoulders and sometimes it comes off but not on Saturday.

Schmidt has some tactical/personnel readjustments to make over the summer or the SA tour could be very difficult to say the least - which as a NH fan I would not want to see.

Toughest thing for Ireland right now must be thinking about the post Sexton era. He was at times very good on Saturday but you can't help but feel he's a bit of a marked man these days and wonder how long he can keep on going.

No citing for Brown 'shocker'

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

It turns out being English isn't actually an offense in the laws of Rugby Union.

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

Huge suprise as he didn't actually do anything wrong....

Barney McGraw you are spot on. These England players are very good but they need to feel a bit more comfortable in their own self and their abilities. A bit less haste will create more speed.

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

Wow this is amazing world news. Rugby player does nothing wrong and doesn't get cited. What is going on?

Didn't help the game that Poite's decision making was a lottery, and that he probably got the decisions wrong in the 3 biggest incidents in the game (and I thought Haskell's card was a bit harsh - biggest problem for me with it was he didn't make much of an effort to wrap his arms on impact):

1 - Hartley's non-try. Stopped short of the line with a tackler holding on to prevent either release or placing the ball over the try line. Subsequently driven over, with the ball coming back under his body and being touched down by Youngs. For me, should have been a penalty to England for the tackler not releasing, but even a 5m scrum would have been an OK decision. What it definitely wasn't was a double movement by Hartley.

2 - Van Der Flier's non try. I think he almost certainly did ground the ball between the defenders, but by the time Poite got there, Daly had got an arm under the ball. TMO decision was right for the question asked, as no video evidence conclusively showed the ball being touched down, but arguable that Poite asked the wrong question.

3 - Incident leading to Care's yellow: Care made the tackle and had no hope of rolling away because Haskell (at least legitimately at first) went for the ball on the floor, trapping Care. Murray held on and Brown (as discussed ad infinitum) tried to fly hack the ball away, catching Murray's face. Poite blew for a penalty to Ireland, so presumably saw an offence either of Care not making an effort to roll away or Haskell playing the ball when off his feet. How it then took 3 reviews and a couple of minutes to arrive at a yellow card for Care is baffling given that DC was not interfering with play. Now a second yellow for Haskell, if he did go off his feet, could have been justified, and I thought Brown was lucky not to at least get binned (regardless of intent). First offence though was Murray not releasing. So, for me the decision should have initially been an England penalty, reversed for Brown's clumsiness (and my issue here is less that he caught Murray than that after the first couple of kicks, he went back for more attempts to kick the ball from Murray's hands). Yellow for MB would not have been unreasonable.

Overall, I think the standards of refereeing have been poor in the games I've seen, with Barnes giving a master-class in pedantry and lack of player sympathy in the France v Wales game.

Only watched the second half, but thought England did pretty well there. Both times they made strong incursions into Irish territory they came away with tries, though I understand the first half was more frustrating in that respect. They were good tries too, simple in a way - draw the defence in with some bruising carrying and exploit the space created out wide - but well executed.

Defence was pretty good too, excellent try-saving tackle by Nowell on Henshaw has barely got a mention, but he got his angles spot on, and Daly and Kruis doing just enough to hold up VdF was an important moment too, particularly when England got the penalty from the next scrum. Some of the line breaks they conceded were a concern though, given how fond Ireland are of the wrap-around with Sexton I'm not entirely sure Mako was the right man to be defending in the centres there.

Still, I get the feeling England are improving game on game, and hopefully will continue to do so.

Ireland for me exhibited some of the similar failures they did in the Welsh game. Created some opportunities, but really struggling to finish things off. It's noticeable they have the worst attack of any team by a fair chunk, albeit they have yet to play the two most porous defences, and that both tries have come from opportunistic snipes by the SH. Maybe guilty of a bit of white-line fever at times? If they can get that sorted a bit, and be a bit more aggressive in defence, I still feel they're not far off, just in a bit of a rebuilding phase, and searching for a style of play at the moment...

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

Huge suprise as he didn't actually do anything wrong....

You lads are hilarious. If one of the Irish lads did that you would be crying over your keyboards as was the case when Cian Healy stamped on Dan Cole for obstructing the ball at a ruck a few seasons back.

We have no way of know if there was intent so it doesn't particularly bother me either way but the inconsistency is really funny. I was watching rugby special last night and I found it really entertaining when Jeremy Guscott sounded like he was about to cry when Wood suggested brown should be cited for being reckless. He really is a whiney fellow isn't he.

" It's noticeable they have the worst attack of any team by a fair chunk"

Completely disagree on that one. It's the finishing off that's missing, not the actual attack play. Also, VdF was not held up, the ball was clearly down, just not seen by the ref or TMO. Time for hawkeye to be used which I am sure would have confirmed the Hartley try as well.

There really isn't that much in it between England, Wales, France and Ireland. The trouble being that we're all equally as dull as dishwater compared to the big SH sides.

GunsGerms wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

Huge suprise as he didn't actually do anything wrong....

You lads are hilarious. If one of the Irish lads did that you would be crying over your keyboards as was the case when Cian Healy stamped on Dan Cole for obstructing the ball at a ruck a few seasons back.

You have a point but I'd still argue that Brown was going for the ball. Healy wasn't. If its the match I am thinking of then for whatever reason Healy lost it big time.

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

Huge suprise as he didn't actually do anything wrong....

You lads are hilarious. If one of the Irish lads did that you would be crying over your keyboards as was the case when Cian Healy stamped on Dan Cole for obstructing the ball at a ruck a few seasons back.

You have a point but I'd still argue that Brown was going for the ball. Healy wasn't. If its the match I am thinking of then for whatever reason Healy lost it big time.

You are right Healy wasn't but that was because Cole was intentionally obstructing the ball with his leg. Healy deserved a card and I think Brown probably deserves to be cited to at the very least explain his reckless actions even if that means letting him off. In the Healy case the reaction from the BBC and the fans was as if someone had died.

Similar thing happened in a Leinster v Munster game a few years when Poc got off for kicking Dave Kearney in the head.

Either way as I said I don't really care because it didn't effect the outcome of the game and Ireland were arguably better when Reddan came on anyway.

dummy_half

I'm with you on Hartley's non-try. There was no second movement from Hartley himself and he looked to be trying to place the ball but couldn't.

On van der Flier's non-try, the issue was the ref not having been in the right place. If he didn't see the grounding himself, he shouldn't be asking "is there any reason I cannot award" because he hasn't seen a try being scored. That question is for when the ball looks to have been grounded and the ref is checking for infringements. "Try yes or no" is asking whether there's enough evidence to conclude a try was scored. While I personally think vdF did ground it, and that the Poite of 2 years ago would have been in the right place to see it, he asked the right question and got the right answer.

On the third one, if the Mirror is right I'm glad Brown hasn't been cited. I only watched the replay in the stadium and haven't reviewed it since, but from what I could see:
1) Brown was engaged in the ruck - i.e. he was bound to an Irish player
2) He stepped into the ruck legally, and kicked at the ball as he is entitled to do
3) The only reason the ball didn't come out is that Murray was - illegally - hanging on to it, and continued to hang onto it after the initial contact
4) At that point, Brown's foot moves backwards and the angle of his boot changes from being flat for kicking the ball to being much more vertical. The stadium replay didn't show what was happening in wider shot, but that's consistent with Brown being shoved back and trying not to make contact with Murray's face.

In fact, it's pretty much the only reason I can think of for his foot moving the way it did. There's no reason move his foot back if he's not being pushed, because it's moving away from the ball, and there's no reason to lift the heel if he's not trying to avoid Murray's head. I think that after the initial kick he may have been more trying to maintain his ground without hitting Murray than trying to kick anything.

Beyond that, Haskell's yellow was understandable but a bit harsh in my opinion - he led with his chest, which probably merits a penalty, but his arms only end up where they do because he's significantly taller than Murray. Care's was just baffling.

There were a number of bad calls made at the scrum - both ways - the most obvious one being when Ross won a penalty having changed his bind twice to go from binding on the body to binding on the hem of the sleeve.

Overall, it was a pretty poor refereeing performance and Poite, who this time last year I would have said was technically the best in the business, has lost the plot in a very big way. That said, his colleagues don't seem to be doing much better. But I don't think the end result was affected in any of the games, so at least there's that.

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

Huge suprise as he didn't actually do anything wrong....

You lads are hilarious. If one of the Irish lads did that you would be crying over your keyboards as was the case when Cian Healy stamped on Dan Cole for obstructing the ball at a ruck a few seasons back.

You have a point but I'd still argue that Brown was going for the ball. Healy wasn't. If its the match I am thinking of then for whatever reason Healy lost it big time.

You are right Healy wasn't but that was because Cole was intentionally obstructing the ball with his leg. Healy deserved a card and I think Brown probably deserves to be cited to at the very least explain his reckless actions even if that means letting him off.

Similar thing happened in a Leinster v Munster game a few years when Poc got off for kicking Dave Kearney in the head.

Either way as I said I don't really care because it didn't effect the outcome of the game and Ireland were arguably better when Reddan came on anyway.

Agree with most of that. I can understand why Brown wasn't cited but I do think its fair to cite when there are question marks over events although it may lead (as with POC) to no action. A citing is not a conviction.

Pete330v2 wrote:" It's noticeable they have the worst attack of any team by a fair chunk"

Completely disagree on that one. It's the finishing off that's missing, not the actual attack play. Also, VdF was not held up, the ball was clearly down, just not seen by the ref or TMO. Time for hawkeye to be used which I am sure would have confirmed the Hartley try as well.

First part. I actually agree with you, by "worst attack" I mean they've scored the fewest points (which they have, by a fair chunk). I thought the rest of my post made it clear that the issue is finishing chances off rather than creating them, sorry for crossed wires.

Disagree re VdF "try", you can't say the ball was "clearly down" when absolutely no camera angle showed it to be so. It may well have been down, but when Poite arrives the ball was held up (you could argue he should have been in a better position initially) so he has no choice but to ask the TMO "try: yes or no?" as indeed he communicates to him. From there, with no angle showing a grounding, the only possible decision is not to give it.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:" It's noticeable they have the worst attack of any team by a fair chunk"

Completely disagree on that one. It's the finishing off that's missing, not the actual attack play. Also, VdF was not held up, the ball was clearly down, just not seen by the ref or TMO. Time for hawkeye to be used which I am sure would have confirmed the Hartley try as well.

First part. I actually agree with you, by "worst attack" I mean they've scored the fewest points (which they have, by a fair chunk). I thought the rest of my post made it clear that the issue is finishing chances off rather than creating them, sorry for crossed wires.

Disagree re VdF "try", you can't say the ball was "clearly down" when absolutely no camera angle showed it to be so. It may well have been down, but when Poite arrives the ball was held up (you could argue he should have been in a better position initially) so he has no choice but to ask the TMO "try: yes or no?" as indeed he communicates to him. From there, with no angle showing a grounding, the only possible decision is not to give it.

Telegraph notes how well Kruis did to both get where he was and, crucially, given what happened, shield the ball and cause doubt. Had VDF been more experienced would he have worked harder to make sure that the ball was in the 'right place' when the ref appeared. Tough call 1v2 though.

So Poite didn't see anything wrong...the video ref didn't see anything wrong....the citing commission didn't see anything wrong.

Is this one put to bed now? There was nothing illegal in what Brown did, it's pretty simple.

Some how I doubt it Sgt-Pooly! - Just a good job it was a player all NH teams/fans like and respect and wasn't Captain Hartley.

TightHEAD wrote:Some how I doubt it Sgt-Pooly! - Just a good job it was a player all NH teams/fans like and respect and wasn't Captain Hartley.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:So Poite didn't see anything wrong...the video ref didn't see anything wrong....the citing commission didn't see anything wrong.

Is this one put to bed now? There was nothing illegal in what Brown did, it's pretty simple.

Perhaps not...but coming from the land that gave us wot football, see....that was an atrociously shameful attempt at finding a ball with a foot. Bobby Charlton will be well displeased with that lad's efforts.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:" It's noticeable they have the worst attack of any team by a fair chunk"

Completely disagree on that one. It's the finishing off that's missing, not the actual attack play. Also, VdF was not held up, the ball was clearly down, just not seen by the ref or TMO. Time for hawkeye to be used which I am sure would have confirmed the Hartley try as well.

First part. I actually agree with you, by "worst attack" I mean they've scored the fewest points (which they have, by a fair chunk). I thought the rest of my post made it clear that the issue is finishing chances off rather than creating them, sorry for crossed wires.

Disagree re VdF "try", you can't say the ball was "clearly down" when absolutely no camera angle showed it to be so. It may well have been down, but when Poite arrives the ball was held up (you could argue he should have been in a better position initially) so he has no choice but to ask the TMO "try: yes or no?" as indeed he communicates to him. From there, with no angle showing a grounding, the only possible decision is not to give it.

It's obvious the ball was grounded. The ref asked the wrong question. I think he bottled it. Not really complaining though as I think Hartley's should also have been given.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

Huge suprise as he didn't actually do anything wrong....

Yes he did. He was reckless. All this proves is that the citing commission/officer is a joke.

I think we need to acknowledge under the current laws he's allowed in there to compete, which we see every game, but unfortunately it's one of those things which happens very occasionally where a boot ctaches someone. I'm all for a discussion on the need to change the rules somehow but aiming anything at Brown is misguided.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I think we need to acknowledge under the current laws he's allowed in there to compete, which we see every game, but unfortunately it's one of those things which happens very occasionally where a boot ctaches someone. I'm all for a discussion on the need to change the rules somehow but aiming anything at Brown is misguided.

The problem with that is that players have been cited, and banned, for much less obviously reckless offences.

Story of Ireland's season so far....shoddy rugby and a lack of citing commission interest in the hits they've been getting. When you is down you is invisible.

"Disagree re VdF "try", you can't say the ball was "clearly down" when absolutely no camera angle showed it to be so"

It doesn't take a rocket scientist to be able to work out from those camera angles that the ball was grounded. VdF was grounding it without obstruction and just because you cannot see the ball touch the whitewash doesn't mean it wasn't down. It means a try cannot be awarded when the question is 'try or no try'. As has been said Hartley's try would also have been given had the ref been on the ball and engaged his brain. It also was clearly down over the whitewash and there was no double movement.
The ref and his little helpers were well below the standards required for our showcase tournament but luckily Poite was utter bilge for both sides and therefore didn't effect the outcome. We have all the technology but there's nothing like a vigilant and decisive official, something we are very short of.

I think what saved Brown is that his such a likeable chap loved by all rugby fans/players and Refs.

I like Brown, good player but don't condone him kicking Murray in the face even if he was going for the ball. We can say that Murray shouldn't have been doing was he was but Brown's action was reckless nonetheless.

I agree if it was an English player who was kicked in the face we would be in uproar.

As for the VDF non try it wasn't a try. Kruis held him up.

At least the ref showed consistency in denying both tries.

I think the biggest sin is when a TMO ignore the rules and gives a try when he shouldn't.....

Barnes is vigilant and decisive, it just makes the game about the refereeing though and horrible to watch.

TightHEAD wrote:I think what saved Brown is that his such a likeable chap loved by all rugby fans/players and Refs.

Brown will be out for revenge now for that comment TightHEAD. Unforgiveable slur on his reputation...I'd be cautious if you ever meet up with him. Lad has a long memory.

Hartley "try" - he is clearly stopped short on the replay. So there is no way for the ball to move forward legally after that as he has had his chance to place the ball and been unable to do so. Correct decision IMO

ON the Brown incident - reckless / dangerous use of the boot in a ruck is a long standing penalty - you can use your feet but you cannot be reckless / dangerous. He was near / made contact with the ball which is why no red card but given he makes contact with a players head no matter what that player is doing a penalty for foul play should have been given IMO - lets see what the citing commissioner says. Its not a deliberate kick to the head so no red card

beshocked wrote:

As for the VDF non try it wasn't a try. Kruis held him up.

.... after he scored the 'try'.  After the 'try'.  The video rooms are full of players 'holding up' after the event.

TJ wrote:Hartley "try" - he is clearly stopped short on the replay.  So there is no way for the ball to move forward legally after that as he has had his chance to place the ball and been unable to do so.  Correct decision IMO

Only if a ruck is formed, no?

SecretFly wrote:

TightHEAD wrote:I think what saved Brown is that his such a likeable chap loved by all rugby fans/players and Refs.

Brown will be out for revenge now for that comment TightHEAD.  Unforgiveable slur on his reputation...I'd be cautious if you ever meet up with him.  Lad has a long memory.

He will be fine as long as he has Warburton to protect him

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

lostinwales wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

munkian wrote:No citing for Brown 'shocker'

Huge suprise as he didn't actually do anything wrong....

You lads are hilarious. If one of the Irish lads did that you would be crying over your keyboards as was the case when Cian Healy stamped on Dan Cole for obstructing the ball at a ruck a few seasons back.

You have a point but I'd still argue that Brown was going for the ball. Healy wasn't. If its the match I am thinking of then for whatever reason Healy lost it big time.

You are right Healy wasn't but that was because Cole was intentionally obstructing the ball with his leg. Healy deserved a card and I think Brown probably deserves to be cited to at the very least explain his reckless actions even if that means letting him off.

Similar thing happened in a Leinster v Munster game a few years when Poc got off for kicking Dave Kearney in the head.

Either way as I said I don't really care because it didn't effect the outcome of the game and Ireland were arguably better when Reddan came on anyway.

Agree with most of that. I can understand why Brown wasn't cited but I do think its fair to cite when there are question marks over events although it may lead (as with POC) to no action. A citing is not a conviction.

Exactly. Also if world rugby want us to believe them when they go on about a "duty of care" towards players then a citing when one guys puts his boot in another guys eye when he is a vulnerable position is the least you would expect in this case.