Super Rugby 2016 Season

First topic message reminder :

Here's a thread for stray observations on this season's matches.

The Blues just pulled off an exciting 33-31 win over the Highlanders, while the Brumbies are comfortably ahead of the Hurricanes at half time.

Yes, it took France half a century to win their first title. But their inclusion merely expanded the championship within the geographical boundaries of Europe. Ditto the addition of Italy.

They would be the Champions of Arg, Japan, NZ, SA, Aus

Meaning nothing

It's not a SH comp it just so happened to have teams from the 3 most successful countries.


3 countries with a geographical feature in common. Or else SA might well have joined the 5/6 Nations instead. Ditto Argentina. In fact, these options have been discussed, but ultimately dismissed - largely due to the geographical factor. It would actually have been a lot easier just to stick the largely European-based Pumas into the 6 Nations, but World Rugby was insistent that their place was in SANZAR, alongside the other Southern Hemisphere giants. Nobody was silly enough to ask them 'What do you have against Argentina?'

Why does expaning the competition and making it bigger make the comp mean nothing? Why do you only go on hemispheres? Japan is closer to NZ and Aus than Argentina for example? Sure the 6Ns is a compe for the NH in your eyes not just for Europe? Why were you only wanting European sides in that comp? What do you have against Japan?

Good game currently going on between Sunwolves and Cheetahs, both teams willing to play fast open rugby. Cheetahs are surprisingly playing a great brand of rugby.

Sunwolves currently leading 7-6

I was surprised the Canes beat the Blues yesterday. I thought the Blues would be much better this year under Umaga. The Canes still have the nucleus of last year's grand final team, but that epic choke is going to make this a difficult season for them psychologically.

Sounds like bad luck for the Sunwolves today, and perhaps they will be more competitive than I had anticipated. But I understand the crowd was only 8,000 in Singapore's 55K stadium. That's got to be a concern. If they can't do better than that this year, the Sunwolves should just play all their games in Tokyo and try to build up a bit of a fan culture there.

On another note, I was thinking about this today and it seems to me Super Rugby could be just a step away from splitting in two. There could be a Pacific Championship with separate Australian and NZ conferences, with Japan added to the former and perhaps a Pacific Islands team added to the latter. And there could be an Atlantic Championship comprising six SA teams and two Argentina franchises in two groups of four. Note: These would be two entirely separate competitions. If the respective winners wanted to meet in a sort of 'Champions League' finale, that would be fine. But for all intents and purposes we would have two separate tournaments, one to determine the Pacific champions, the other to determine the South Atlantic champions. Who knows, a few more decades down the line it could break up even further, with separate Asian and South American competitions getting underway...

Rowanbi wrote:I was surprised the Canes beat the Blues yesterday. I thought the Blues would be much better this year under Umaga. The Canes still have the nucleus of last year's grand final team, but that epic choke is going to make this a difficult season for them psychologically.

Having their midfield ripped out in the summer is going to hurt them. You can't just replace Nonu and Smith, they are a world cup winning centre partnership. Milner-Skudder not being fully fit won't help them either he's a match winning player when fit and I think he made the telling difference against the Blues even not fully fit.

I don't think I've seen anyone passive egg a team onto failing than you are doing with Sunwolves. Poor attendance today for sure but it was the result of two overlapping deals. Two relatively obscure teams playing against each other in a country with no rugby history was always gonna bomb hard.

Just analysing the facts, is all, Kingraf. I conceded they appear to have been more competitive than I'd anticipated. But that's a woeful crowd, to be fair.

How about this for a revamped 'Super 19'

I think SANZAAR should look at switching the Sunwolves to one of the Australasian conferences. To balance it out, they might call for applications of interest in hosting a 19th Super Rugby franchise. Singapore might well enter the running, though I'd personally like to see a Pacific Island team involved, operating out of Suva. The Hawkes Bay province, currently within the Hurricanes franchise, has also expressed interest in the past.

Atlantic division
South African Conference: Lions, Bulls, Cheetahs, Stormers, Sharks, Kings, Jaguares

Top 4 teams into semi-finals leading to final to determine Atlantic division champion

Pacific division
Australian Conference: NSW, Reds, ACT, Force, Rebels, Sunwolves

New Zealand Conference: Blues, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Crusaders, Highlanders, ?Singapore/Islanders/Hawkes Bay?

Conference Champions determined by standings at the end of the regular season

Top 4 teams into semi-finals leading to final to determine Pacific division champion

Atlantic champion plays Pacific champion in Super Rugby final

Joe Peterson won't want to watch that one back. Misses a sitter right in front of the posts. A draw that should have been a win.

Good game crrently going on between Jaguares and Chiefs. Jaguares are really suited to this style of rugby. Chiefs scrum really struggling so far.

Well, that was some game, put NH rugby into perspective.

VinceWLB wrote:Well, that was some game, put NH rugby into perspective.

Vince did you watch the Crusaders game yesterday, a few on our board did and said our new signing Fonotia was very good in all facets, passing, tackling and taking the ball up, would like to hear other peoples opinion, thanks.

wayne wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Well, that was some game, put NH rugby into perspective.

Vince did you watch the Crusaders game yesterday, a few on our board did and said our new signing Fonotia was very good in all facets, passing, tackling and taking the ball up, would like to hear other peoples opinion, thanks.

I didn't, as i knew the opposition from the Kings would be somewhat limited and i have never particularly been found of the Crusaders' game. Watched a lot of rugby yesterday but that game wasn't one of them. I will have a look when Crusaders face Sharks next weak and it will not be very early in the morning.

VinceWLB wrote:

wayne wrote:

VinceWLB wrote:Well, that was some game, put NH rugby into perspective.

Vince did you watch the Crusaders game yesterday, a few on our board did and said our new signing Fonotia was very good in all facets, passing, tackling and taking the ball up, would like to hear other peoples opinion, thanks.

I didn't, as i knew the opposition from the Kings would be somewhat limited and i have never particularly been found of the Crusaders' game. Watched a lot of rugby yesterday but that game wasn't one of them. I will have a look when Crusaders face Sharks next weak and it will not be very early in the morning.

Thanks anyway Vince, it would have been nice to read an unbiased view, as some of our Forum users can go over the top a little.

Anyone know the attendance at the Sunwolves' game versus the Rebels?

Btw, I googled the home debut attendances for the Force & Rebels and both were around capacity. In the former's case this entailed over 40K at the Subiaco. Interestingly, crowds declined rapidly as the home-teams failed to deliver. The Sunwolves' debut in Tokyo drew a below capacity crowd to a 27K stadium in a metropolis of almost 40 million, while their first game in Singers attracted a mere 8K to a 55K stadium. Will it only get worse if they don't start winning ??

Rowanbi wrote:How about this for a revamped 'Super 19'  

I think SANZAAR should look at switching the Sunwolves to one of the Australasian conferences. To balance it out, they might call for applications of interest in hosting a 19th Super Rugby franchise. Singapore might well enter the running, though I'd personally like to see a Pacific Island team involved, operating out of Suva. The Hawkes Bay province, currently within the Hurricanes franchise, has also expressed interest in the past.

Atlantic division
South African Conference: Lions, Bulls, Cheetahs, Stormers, Sharks, Kings, Jaguares

Top 4 teams into semi-finals leading to final to determine Atlantic division champion

Pacific division
Australian Conference: NSW, Reds, ACT, Force, Rebels, Sunwolves

New Zealand Conference: Blues, Chiefs, Hurricanes, Crusaders, Highlanders, ?Singapore/Islanders/Hawkes Bay?

Conference Champions determined by standings at the end of the regular season

Top 4 teams into semi-finals leading to final to determine Pacific division champion

Atlantic champion plays Pacific champion in Super Rugby final

A few decades down the line we might end up with an Americas division (Argentina and North American teams), SA, Australia & NZ divisions, and an Asian division. Each would play for its own title. Then there would be inter-division playoffs for the Super Rugby title. Would there then be a possibility of entering the European champion into those playoffs, so that the Super Rugby winner would effectively be the World Club Champion?

Just 7500 for today's match in Singers. Sunwolves have had 4 straight games at home, losing all of them, and must now embark on a tough South African tour.

Rowanbi wrote:Just 7500 for today's match in Singers. Sunwolves have had 4 straight games at home, losing all of them, and must now embark on a tough South African tour.

7k is good all things considering. I've been very impressed with the Sunwolves this year, they have really surprised me. They play a great brand of rugby and picked up a couple of really good signings given how short of time they had to recruit players after most of the guys in the Top league declined offers. In a few years time this could really be a team to be feared at home.

Well, 2/4 losses were very close. Let's see how they go now on tour. . .

Rowanbi wrote:Well, 2/4 losses were very close. Let's see how they go now on tour. . .

I honestly expected them to be hammered every round after seeing their squad when it was first announced. They should have beaten the Cheetahs and ran the Bulls damn close. A lot to be encouraged about.

How does everybody feel about the Super Rugby championship this year? So far I have to say my only interest has been in the performances of the expansion teams. Otherwise I'm unable to generate much enthusiasm. Kiwi teams kicking butt as usual, Brumbies & NSW carrying the flag for Aussie while the other 3 sides flounder, and the Saffas looking distinctly second rate. Same old same old in that department.

The Jaguars are 1 - 4 now, after winning their first game. A bit disappointing. They've been competitive in all their games, but now comes a couple of very tough games against the Canes and Saders in NZ, and I'd be surprised if they won either. After that they're off to Tokyo, where they ought to break their losing streak against the hapless Sunwolves.

Rowanbi wrote:The Jaguars are 1 - 4 now, after winning their first game. A bit disappointing. They've been competitive in all their games, but now comes a couple of very tough games against the Canes and Saders in NZ, and I'd be surprised if they won either. After that they're off to Tokyo, where they ought to break their losing streak against the hapless Sunwolves.

They were lucky to win against the Cheetahs too, scoring a few tries against the run of play.

Will be interesting to see who wins later today between the Kings and Sunwolves.

Does anyone know why the sun wolves have split their home games? It doesn't make sense for a Japanese team to play in Singapore, as much as I love that city.

I'm enjoying super rugby this year but the format doesn't make much sense to me. Probably also the least environmentally friendly league in any sport globally!

Bathman_in_London wrote:Does anyone know why the sun wolves have split their home games? It doesn't make sense for a Japanese team to play in Singapore, as much as I love that city.

I'm enjoying super rugby this year but the format doesn't make much sense to me. Probably also the least environmentally friendly league in any sport globally!

But they are ecumenical and pollute across the globe!

Bathman_in_London wrote:Does anyone know why the sun wolves have split their home games? It doesn't make sense for a Japanese team to play in Singapore, as much as I love that city.

To cut down travel requirements for the visiting teams, I belirve. But I agree with you. Doesn't make sense at all, and the crowds in Singers have been relatively modest.

They were lucky to win against the Cheetahs too, scoring a few tries against the run of play.

Will be interesting to see who wins later today between the Kings and Sunwolves.

I think the Jags are a cut above the Sunwolves. They might have been unlucky against the Cheetahs, but they were certainly a little unlucky to lose a couple of their other games. I don't think they'll realize their aim of making the playoffs this year, but they should pick a few more wins before season's send, especially once they get back home.

Kings & Sunwolves are the only teams left without a win, after 4 or 5 rounds. Not sure the Kings will even be around next season, will they, with all the financial probems they're having?

So Kings get their first win and Sunwolves are left rock bottom with 5 straight defeats. Doesn't get any easier either, with a visit to the Stormers next on the agenda...

Bathman_in_London wrote:Does anyone know why the sun wolves have split their home games? It doesn't make sense for a Japanese team to play in Singapore, as much as I love that city.

I'm enjoying super rugby this year but the format doesn't make much sense to me. Probably also the least environmentally friendly league in any sport globally!

The format changes annually and never seems to make much sense. It was at its ridiculous best the season in which teams were awarded four points for having a bye.

Blues 24...Jaguares 16.

New Zealand franchises are becoming increasingly dominant. Hard to see anything but yet another all-Kiwi final this year. The Aussies must be particularly concerned that their traditional flag-bearers are all struggling at the moment.

Sanzar made some deal with Singapore before Japan got a team. Splitting the Sunwolves home games was the middle ground.

Yes, the Singapore bid was initially favored, perhaps mainly due to its geographical location just above the equator, so I'm sure some kind of deal would have been struck when the expansion franchise ultimately went to Japan. But the idea was certainly to reduced travel for the South African teams. Anyway, I still think the championship needs to be revamped and streamlined next year, with a single South African conference involving seven teams (including the Jaguares), Japan added to the Australian conference, and a new team - ie Singapore - being added to the NZ conference. With teams playing their conference rivals both home and away, the South African teams would then play only four teams from outside their own conference (obviously two at home & two away). Australian and NZ teams would play six teams from outside their own conference (3 at home & 3 away).

Rowanbi wrote:New Zealand franchises are becoming increasingly dominant. Hard to see anything but yet another all-Kiwi final this year. The Aussies must be particularly concerned that their traditional flag-bearers are all struggling at the moment.

For the second weekend in a row the New Zealand teams have had a 100% success rate.

Even the Blues are winning

& imagine if the Canes ever did manage not to choke at the playoffs stage. A title their way would mean all of New Zealand's franchises would have won it at least once...

Expansion teams struggling more and more as the season progresses. Perhaps that's not surprising, particularly in the case of the Sunwolves with their limited depth, but I've been a little disappointed by the Jaguares. Still, they're on a very tough tour, playing the strongest teams on the competition on their home grounds. Good news is the Jags & the Wolves meet in Tokyo in a couple of weeks - and one of them's got to win (unless it's a draw)

Not going too well for our Sunwolves friends. Ugly, ugly scoreline..

I copped a lot of flak for questioning their inclusion as well...

The only good thing about next week is they're playing at home to the Jags, and if they lose, which I imagine they will, at least the Argies will pick up their fist vistory since round 1. They're on a very tough tour at the moment.

Meanwhile, Kiwis still dominating. Crusaders the Real Madrid of Rugby !!

What does everybody think? Should the Sunwolves stay or should they go?

Brumbies-Waratahs match, on now, is pretty entertaining. Very sloppy by Brumbies, but still entertaining. Brumbies up with less than 10 to go.

Rowanbi wrote:What does everybody think? Should the Sunwolves stay or should they go?

They should stay but they need Japan very best players. Why they didn't get someone like Leitch?

Yesterday was the first really bad result, all the other games they showed a lot of promise until around the hour mark when the subpar fitness of some players told. Be thankful they aren't playing in NZ.

VinceWLB wrote:

Rowanbi wrote:What does everybody think? Should the Sunwolves stay or should they go?

They should stay but they need Japan very best players. Why they didn't get someone like Leitch?.

After the World Cup. Japan's best players became targets for top Super Rugby franchises. Given all the uncertainty over whether the Sunwolves would actually exist, it's not surprising that many of them elected to get experience and money elsewhere.

It makes sense for the Sunwolves to have a good number of national team players but there have to be good incentives for the players. It's striking that most Japanese have joined NZ or Australia teams, which just reinforces the fact that the South African conference does not offer an attractive schedule for them.

I wouldn't be surprised if the Sunwolves transfer to the Australian conference next year, the Jags join NZ and the Saffas goes back to a single conference of 6 teams.

Lions vs Stormers was gripping. In the end ghe right team won.

Interesting that Pro Rugby is going only with geographical names (Sacremento and Denver got off to winning starts yesterday). I think that is really crucial in terms of attracting and maintaining a fan base. Does anyone else think Super Rugby made a big mistake by pandering to the whims of country yokels and dispensing with its geographical team names?

No.

No.

Rowanbi wrote:Interesting that Pro Rugby is going only with geographical names (Sacremento and Denver got off to winning starts yesterday). I think that is really crucial in terms of attracting and maintaining a fan base. Does anyone else think Super Rugby made a big mistake by pandering to the whims of country yokels and dispensing with its geographical team names?

As far as South African teams go, the various teams have such an established regional identity already, that it doesn't matter whether you include the name of the region or not, everyone knows which team is from where...

I'm think about the expanding international market though. What do names like the 'Blues, Reds, Lions and Sharks' mean to potential TV audiences in Japan and Argentina. Even the British seem to think Super Rugby is a joke, and just maybe this is one reason why...

Foreign markets are less inclined to care about where a team is based, favouring how they play and how successful they are surely. Look at Man U, obviously massive the world over, doubt anyone is supporting them because they are from Manchester. Wasps are going through a great up turn at the moment, doubt anyone abroad cares they dropped the London and moved to Coventry.