Eddie Jones - England's New Coach

First topic message reminder :

Kruis and Joseph were both poor in the first half. Kruis's tactics when calling the lineouts were shockingly bad. Hartley got away with two squint throws at the start, but was then pinged for a crooked one and saw one pinched. All four Kruis called to himself. After that the calls got more and more complicated, involving a lit of movement and switching of positions - yet every time he kept calling to himself, thus easy to defend and predict.

I am torn on Joseph. Until he made the interception he had been really poor, but that was fantastic play - as was his finish for the 3rd try. so strangely I woul dnot say he was the best player - but with 3 key moments he was MotM i guess.

Youngs did ok, for me 6/10 - average - though having checked about a Dozen reviews now he got one 6, two 8s (crazy) and the rest 7s. One journo even stated he was clearly Englands best player in the first half. Cannot agree - but a sign that we all see things differently.

Yeah, but to be fair he's finally acknowledged it's just because he considers Itoje and Kruis as the best locks in the country. To be fair I'll much rather take that as his opinion rather than the made up reasons that are swapped around to suit.

Well, the Guardian today has Itoje starting with Launchbury on the bench, Brookes winning the bench slot back from Hill and Goode dropped in favour of Daly and Manu as the outside backs bench.

Youngs starts over Care, apparently, which is pretty much the only decision I'd quibble with. Manu and Goode would expose us to the risk of Manu having to play a long stint; Daly gives an option at 12, 13 and 15 that means Manu can be held in reserve until it's time for Eddieball.

Cockerill was fairly strong in his opinion that Tuilagi wasn't ready for a test match yet, but said he'd support Jones I think. Will be interesting to see what happens if he has to play a long match.

Sgt Pooly carrying off Etzebeth at one point doesn't mean anything. I've seen Chris Ashton smash Burgess backwards once, doesn't make Ashton a more physical rugby player. Would be ludricous to suggest so.

Weight doesn't equal power.

no 7 & 1/2 it's not about better or worse. It's about who I think is most suitable to face Wales at this current time. I think Kruis-Itoje is the best combo for the job.

Made up reasons? I like to deal in evidence as much as possible.

thomh Launchbury wasn't fully fit vs Scotland and was taken off at half time as a result. Of course it should factor in.

He has struggled to string gametime for England together because a lack of fitness. Eddie Jones indeed wanted to pick Launchbury vs Ireland but he could not.

Sorry made up reasons is probably worded clumsily. Reasons which you apply in one instance and then don't apply consistently is what I mean. It doesn't come down to fitness or deserving to keep the shirt after injury cover it's down to you thinking that those 2 together (rather than individually) are best then. I'm get that reasoning, don't agree but get it.

Possibly not but it's an example to why Launchbury is more physical than Itoje....which he is.

Chris Ashton couldn't smash my nan backwards, unless he let her get past and pulled her down by her wig

no 7 & 1/2 deserving? That's subjective just as who the best can be.

Don't apply consistently? I could the same of you.

Talking about continuity but wanting to pick a lock who has struggled to string 3 games together at international level recently.

Kruis-Launchbury is not an established 2nd row partnership, there is no continuity to uphold.

If you would want to pick Launchbury because you think he's better than Itoje then that's your opinion. Hit me with proof that Launchbury is indeed better - like prove the worth Launchbury has shown to England.

I supported Itoje with stats after the Ireland game, can you do the same for Launchbury?

Bambam of course

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uAIfMIARMDc

Okay maybe it's not technically backwards but he smashes Burgess. I am not suggesting Ashton is more physically impressive than Burgess I should add.

Sgt Pooly example of being more physical is weight? Seems like a flawed argument to me.

Proof?

I've just give you an example that you dismissed. It's also an opinion not fact. As much rubbish as you spout on here is only your opinion, not fact.

Launchbury is obviously heavier than Itoje but that doesn't always equate to physicality, in this case though it does.

I don't think you really can pick stats out to prove someones worth to a rugby team to be honest. Stats can start to back specific points but you can focus too much on them. The Hartley giving 2 pens away one, the stat that Itoje made a turnover. They don't tell waht happened fully. Yes I think consistency is important. I'd be looking to get the best team on the pitch as much as possible. If we're talking this specific instance of Itoje vs Launchbury fair enough. Where my point of consistency will come in is where there's a drop in form for a player, someone picking up an injury and we'll soon see whether the consistency of argument comes up. My point of view is that you identify a player then give them a run of games to prove themselves. If you've looking to drop players for form players all the time that's a mistake in my view and will never allow partnerships to develop. Now you've used this form point of view and injury to push Itoje's case, I can't for 1 minute believe that you'll be calling for him to be dropped if he has an ok game and someone else impresses from the bench.

We also go back to arguments of when players should be given a chance in big games. You argued for experience once upon a time now form. It lacks consistency. I think you pretty much agree with me on this point: if the player is good enough he becomes a serious option whether on 1 cap or 100.

Now if Launchbury or Itoje starts or hell both of them, I don't think it will alter the pattern of the upcoming match. I think we could throw a number of locks in there and there wouldn't be a great deal of difference. Lock is an area of strength.

Sgt Pooly he is obviously heavier? Have you weighed both of them? You are saying Launchbury is more physical based on what exactly? There needs to be some evidence. Like - Launchbury makes more metres per carry, knocks people back in the tackle more etc.

no 7 & 1/2 you can't talk about consistency when Launchbury hasn't had much gametime in the 6 nations together due to his lack of fitness. Less than Itoje.

Hartley had a golden opportunity to score a try, he was unfortunate to be pinged for a penalty but he should have gotten over the line in my opinion.

Would have reflected much more positively on his performance and influence if he had a 5 pointer instead of a penalty against him.

Itoje could have been pinged but he wasn't, his turnover stopped a dangerous Irish attack - that was the result. If he gave away a penalty then the spotlight would have been on him but instead it was a positive not a negative.

Luck can have a factor too. Or if you have a reputation it can make things worse. Is it fair? Perhaps not but that's the way it is.

What happens if you give someone a run and they just stay mediocre?

Do you look for something better or stick with what you've got?

It comes down to if you think someone is good enough.

I would say that the backrow battle and Farrell vs Roberts will be more important than the locks but locks can have a lot of influence too.

You've been very critical of pens given away at the breakdown though beshocked. That comes from the players doing things which should result in penalties. It's the fast of thought argument that you've said and I've said about Clifford and Haskell for instance. Players making the correct decisions. The Itoje outcome was a turnover but he put himself in a position where it should have been a penalty against him.

Consistency is something I feel makes a team stronger thats true. I think that the run of mediocrity depends on if you have a the group of players vying for the position.

no 7 & 1/2 you are tallking about a hypothetical penalty that was a turnover for England. You are talking about what you think should have happened - not what happened.

It could have gone against Itoje but it didn't.

If Haskell and Farrell got turnovers instead of giving away penalties the criticism would be less.

If Haskell's YC had resulted in a loss then I would be discussing the card more but fortunately it didn't.

Haskell's poor discipline is an issue but didn't cost England the match.

I don't need any evidence, it's my opinion after watching numerous games. Also watching Launchbury at least hold his own against the best in the world, something Itoje hasn't done.

Laumchbury is taller and much bigger built than Itoje, it's pretty obvious he's heavier....not that it matters.

Do you just argue with everyone?

Only when a Sarries player is involved. With George out, not even Beshocked can argue about Hartley starting.

Who is the next Sarries player to be championed to death at the expense of all others, that big winger with the silly hair cut possibly. Much bigger than Nowell, scores more tries..............

Itoje hasn't played enough yet - Sgt Pooly he'll continue to prove you wrong just as he has for the last year. Gametime is all he needs.

If he's taller it's by only 1 inch. If he's heavier then it's only by a very small amount. Unless you think an estimation of 116kg vs 118kg is a massive difference. A 21 year old still getting to grips with international rugby compared to a 24 year old who has performed fine at international level. Whose got more room for improvement?

Then again these are only estimations - we don't know the real figures, we don't know who bench presses more, whose stronger etc. Does it even matter who bench presses more? No not really.

My point is you can't say for certain that Launchbury is more physical. Itoje IMO is a very powerful young man. I think he's a more difficult player to stop than Launchbury with ball in hand. I guess it depends what you mean. Defining physicality. Is it smashing players in the tackle? Powerful ball carrying? Relentless breakdown work? Etc.

well past it Ellery? No, not playing well enough. Nowell is playing well. I will champion another Sarries player when they make it worth it to do so.

I've championed Clifford, wanting him to start instead of Haskell but of course you only criticise me when I want a Saracens player in.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 you are tallking about a hypothetical penalty that was a turnover for England. You are talking about what you think should have happened - not what happened.

It could have gone against Itoje but it didn't.

If Haskell and Farrell got turnovers instead of giving away penalties the criticism would be less.

If Haskell's YC had resulted in a loss then I would be discussing the card more but fortunately it didn't.

Haskell's poor discipline is an issue but didn't cost England the match.

So you mainly judge a player on the refs performance rather than their own?

You're saying Launchbury hasn't got to grips with international rugby? Seriously what do you watch?

I've edited it to show what I really mean. Launchbury has been fine. I just don't think he's as valuable as you make out. I believe he can be replaced. He wasn't missed vs Ireland. Now perhaps this shows the strength of lock but perhaps it just shows that Launchbury is not head and shoulders above his peers.

I judge a player mainly on what happens.

If Launchbury had started vs Ireland and put in a good performance then I am sure he would be assured as a starter vs Wales but it didn't happen that way.

Launchbury was one of many subs who added value against Italy. Perhaps that performance made Eddie Jones want to start Launchbury vs Ireland but Jones has to look at what has happened.

Eddie Jones is not Stuart Lancaster, Launchbury has to please the new coach like every other player.

Strength in depth for me. Kruis has been player of the tournament so far imo but I wouldn't be losing sleep if he were replaced either.

Who runs the lineout with Kruis out? Bear in mind that Lawes is also out.

Launchbury might have some strengths but running a lineout is not one, same with Itoje.

Kruis would be a bigger absentee than either Launchbury or Itoje because there's no direct replacement fit. I don't think Slater fits that either but maybe I am wrong?

The 3 worst injuries England can get vs Wales are in this order in my opinion:

1.Billy
2.Hartley (as George is injured)
3. Kruis (as Lawes is injured)

They've got an excellent teacher. I can't imagine that Jones has set up training which doesn't take into accoutn Kruis getting injured in the first minute, they all know the calls. Maybe Cole for your choices, Brookes isn't known for lasting the full 80 well and we'd be putting alot on Hill as Wales are looking top notch in the scrum again.

Slater has been running the line out for Leicester whenever fit this season, and brings plenty in the loose

If Kruis/Lawes both injured, he'd be the replacement for me, even if he isn't technically in the same mould as those 2. Has even been playing 8!

If probably prefer Slater to Itoje tbh

Having an excellent teacher doesn't mean that they Itoje or Launchbury will suddenly be able to run the lineout well. Maybe but unlikely. Itoje should have had plenty of interaction with Borthwick already but he's not been used as a lineout caller. Launchbury has never been known as a proper lineout 2nd row.

I think Launchbury and Itoje as a combo would have some good strengths but the lineout is not one.

It's part of their game I would like both players to work on.

Brookes and Hill have that unknown quantity though. Wales have scrummed against Cole plenty of times and I wouldn't say that he's exactly been the scourge of Wales.

Plus with Brookes or Hill partnered with Hartley you have the 2 and 3 from Saints.

Sgt Pooly of course you would we know you think so little of Itoje. Say he's good but would have him in the pecking order behind every lock and their dog.

Mulling over whether to be a sarcastic di** and make some quotes up here, but I'm just going to say that Kruis has had a ropey game calling the lineout already this 6Ns, so don't think he's irreplaceable yet. Although Launchburys lineout is generally talked down he's looked good this season.

Doesn't help your hooker has an off day with his throwing. If it was T.Youngs, Sgt Pooly would have skewered him... As it was Hartley he seemed to be silent on the topic.

Launchbury's lineout is talked down but he's not done much for England. It's not been a strength of his.

Much improved this year though, as had Itoje. Thought it was a real weakness at the end of last year for Saracens but his disruption is excellent and he's getting better at claiming his own ball but a bit of work to do still.

Can I just say......LCD is definitely going to be on the bench and if his throwing hasn't improved, then its irrelevant who plays locks come the lineouts...!

It was looking good earlier in the season. Still not a 100% player but he's young and if he works on it the rest of his game is very impressive. I pray that he's not written off based on 1 or 2 appearances. The obvious risk is that he needs to come on early doors but he should do well. Needs a nice call from Kruis early on, last thing we want is for it to go awry as it obviously piles on the pressure.

I think I'd have Robinson over Slater though

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I think I'd have Robinson over Slater though

Goes without saying

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was looking good earlier in the season. Still not a 100% player but he's young and if he works on it the rest of his game is very impressive. I pray that he's not written off based on 1 or 2 appearances. The obvious risk is that he needs to come on early doors but he should do well. Needs a nice call from Kruis early on, last thing we want is for it to go awry as it obviously piles on the pressure.

Nah mate, ive said on the other thread...the rest of his game is not an issue...he'll be a strong impact player if he comes on v Wales. Just hope his throwing is up to speed.

beshocked wrote:

thomh Launchbury wasn't fully fit vs Scotland and was taken off at half time as a result. Of course it should factor in.

I'm afraid I just don't understand what your point about Launchbury is. Are you saying that coming off early against Scotland is somehow indicative of a wider fitness problem he has at the moment? I'd say that's a pretty flimsy claim if so. He was widely reported as violently ill the day/night before. Players get ill. It's got nothing at all to do with a hamstring niggle a couple of weeks later and certainly doesn't indicate any wider issue.

Alternatively are you saying that his injury and illness will have cost him fitness? He's started two games and it doesn't sound like he has missed much training at all, so I'd say that's pretty flimsy as well.

Saying that Itoje an Kruis are the two best options isn't a particularly controversial opinion at the moment, but you're making something out of nothing with Launchbury's fitness.

BS making something out of nothing and arguing for the sake of arguing??? Surely not......

What, when a Saracen or player competing with a Saracen is involved? You must be kidding

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was looking good earlier in the season. Still not a 100% player but he's young and if he works on it the rest of his game is very impressive. I pray that he's not written off based on 1 or 2 appearances. The obvious risk is that he needs to come on early doors but he should do well. Needs a nice call from Kruis early on, last thing we want is for it to go awry as it obviously piles on the pressure.

Maro Itoje?

Heaslip was always touted as one of the best 8s in world rugby until he met Billy. Haven't seen much said about Heaslip since. Just a thought.

doctor_grey wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was looking good earlier in the season. Still not a 100% player but he's young and if he works on it the rest of his game is very impressive. I pray that he's not written off based on 1 or 2 appearances. The obvious risk is that he needs to come on early doors but he should do well. Needs a nice call from Kruis early on, last thing we want is for it to go awry as it obviously piles on the pressure.

Maro Itoje?

Cowan Dickie

Hooker is a problem when LCD is 3rd choice.....

englandglory4ever wrote:Heaslip was always touted as one of the best 8s in world rugby until he met Billy. Haven't seen much said about Heaslip since. Just a thought.

Well he was, and should have been for longer but that was a while ago and he has spent a lot of time trading on his reputation and only sparking into his best form occasionally

Heaslip hasn't been great since 2009 for me when he was at his peak.

An 8 needs a carrying game and it's not a strong area for Heaslip at all. Of all the 8's in the NH, he's the one I notice the least and the one I rarely worry about.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Heaslip hasn't been great since 2009 for me when he was at his peak.

An 8 needs a carrying game and it's not a strong area for Heaslip at all. Of all the 8's in the NH, he's the one I notice the least and the one I rarely worry about.

His lack of carrying wasn't an issue when he was lining up with SOB and Ferris though in the Ireland backrow. He was probably the perfect 8 for those two.

Did any one else think Launchbury looked really fat and out of shape in his last game? Yea he was unwell, and yes he doesn't need to look like Heman, but good he looked unconditioned.

thomh wrote:

beshocked wrote:

thomh Launchbury wasn't fully fit vs Scotland and was taken off at half time as a result. Of course it should factor in.

I'm afraid I just don't understand what your point about Launchbury is. Are you saying that coming off early against Scotland is somehow indicative of a wider fitness problem he has at the moment? I'd say that's a pretty flimsy claim if so. He was widely reported as violently ill the day/night before. Players get ill. It's got nothing at all to do with a hamstring niggle a couple of weeks later and certainly doesn't indicate any wider issue.

Alternatively are you saying that his injury and illness will have cost him fitness? He's started two games and it doesn't sound like he has missed much training at all, so I'd say that's pretty flimsy as well.

Saying that Itoje an Kruis are the two best options isn't a particularly controversial opinion at the moment, but you're making something out of nothing with Launchbury's fitness.

Sgt Pooly not at all.

Itoje vs Launchbury is one of the main selection questions before the Wales game.

Thomh perhaps the violent illness vs Scotland is not part of a wider fitness problem but nonetheless it occured. It is not something you can just ignore. It contributes to Launchbury's current lack of gametime at international level.

Is it so difficult for you to understand? Out of a potential 240 minutes, Launchbury has played just 70 minutes. Now of course not every player plays the full 80 in every game but over 3 games, Launchbury hasn't managed 80.

40 minutes vs Scotland whilst not fit and 30 minutes off the bench vs Italy, injured vs Ireland is not showing someone fully fighting fit.

Launchbury has not started two matches. Only 1 and he wasn't fully fit.

You cannot talk about continuity in selection when Launchbury has struggled to string gametime together despite being initially favoured by Eddie Jones.

Eddie Jones has not been holding Launchbury back, it's been Launchbury's lack of fitness making him unavailable. Hasn't been Launchbury holding tackle bags, that's been left to other players.

Still found it odd you had a fully fit lock holding tackle bags whilst the one who was struggling with a violent illness was deemed fit to face Scotland.

Didn't bite England in the backside this time so no harm done I guess.

Continuity comes when selecting purely on form in the future as well.

Who'd you want considering at hooker going forward pooly? Taylor looks promising but moving to a new club may be slowed a little?

I think Taylor and LCD look two good ones.

LCD is excellent everywhere bar his throwing which is a work in progress.

I also think Yeandle is a very good hooker. Everytime I see him he always seems to do everything right. Maybe wont make England, but it does give LCD good competition to ensure his set piece skills are improved. And he's at the best club at the moment for sorting those skills out.

no 7 & 1/2 players have to perform or risk being dropped. If a player isn't fully fit it should factor in too.

England have put Hartley so high on a pedestal that if he's injured then England will struggle at hooker.
I am actually happy for LCD to get an opportunity, must have been gutting to be rated behind Webber,T.Youngs then George and Hartley. Though the latter two are less surprising.

If LCD develops into a strong hooker option that will be good for England.

One that can do the basics now.

You don't win games by scrummaging poorly or miss throwing at line outs. I'd personally have Haywood in there currently.