Best number 8 in the world?

First topic message reminder :

With so many world class number 8s about at the moment its probably the strongest position in terms of player quality in the world right now so just out of curiosity to see who gets the majority vote, who would you say is the best 8 in the world at the moment?

Gwlad wrote:3 for Billy

That's one vote per game since the English press decided he was going to be The Best In The World.

Voting for Billy would be seen as arrogant.

At the moment, he's clearly the best No 8 in the Northern Hemisphere*. We'll have to see how he manages against the southern hemisphere later this year.

*Parisse - hard to judge when we only see him for Italy - how is he for Stade?
Nathan Hughes might be even better - but we'll have to see. Maybe the European Cup semi final will tell us.

This should be more like top trumps to be honest.

Right now Billy V's carrying would rank a 10 and his tackling, passing and overall work rate would also be high. Speed and lineouts would be very low.

Voting for Billy would be seen as arrogant.

he's clearly the best No 8 in the Northern Hemisphere

CLEARLY OLD CHAP ABSOLUTELY CLEARLY

RubyGuby wrote:Voting for Billy would be seen as arrogant.

he's clearly the best No 8 in the Northern Hemisphere

CLEARLY OLD CHAP ABSOLUTELY CLEARLY

Do you think Nathan Hughes is better? Or Thomas the Tank engine - he scores more tries. But so far this year, Billy V has been the best player in the best performing teams in Europe.

Vunipola is the form 8 of the first 3 games. His presence is generally seen as vital to get England on the front foot. Though he still concedes a turnover or penalty from time to time (normally in the opposition half so it hasn't come to much) the ground he makes ball in hand more than compensates.

Faletau and Parisse have both been impressive. Of all of them Faletau is the most unheralded I feel. He may not be as strong a carrier as Vunipola but I don't think there's currently a more consistent player in the Welsh squad in terms of work rate, especially the tackle count. Faletau offers at least a bit of everything and a lot of some things.

Parisse has been a pillar for well over a decade. His carrying is very good and his passing and instincts excellent. Against Scotland I saw him seemingly effortlessly pluck Italian kick offs out the sky. One of those players who at times seems to single-handedly drag a poor side forward.

I agree with bluestonevedder, four years ago Denton looked like quite a force but nowadays is mainly anonymous and makes very little ground when he gets the ball.

It's a shame Picamoles got injured in the first game or there's half a chance we'd be discussing him along the same lines as Vunipola.

Knowsit17 wrote:Vunipola is the form 8 of the first 3 games. His presence is generally seen as vital to get England on the front foot. Though he still concedes a turnover or penalty from time to time (normally in the opposition half so it hasn't come to much) the ground he makes ball in hand more than compensates.

Faletau and Parisse have both been impressive. Of all of them Faletau is the most unheralded I feel. He may not be as strong a carrier as Vunipola but I don't think there's currently a more consistent player in the Welsh squad in terms of work rate, especially the tackle count. Faletau offers at least a bit of everything and a lot of some things.

Parisse has been a pillar for well over a decade. His carrying is very good and his passing and instincts excellent. Against Scotland I saw him seemingly effortlessly pluck Italian kick offs out the sky. One of those players who at times seems to single-handedly drag a poor side forward.

I agree with bluestonevedder, four years ago Denton looked like quite a force but nowadays is mainly anonymous and makes very little ground when he gets the ball.

It's a shame Picamoles got injured in the first game or there's half a chance we'd be discussing him along the same lines as Vunipola.

This matches what I think. Its horses for courses. No.8 in particular is open to different styles of play which means is that it can be hard to directly compare what Vunipola and Faletau bring to England and Wales. I am very happy to have Billy and I am sure many Welsh fans are happy to have Toby. There isn't any conflict in that.

Some silly votes here.

I don't know a single Scottish poster who thinks Picamoles, Vunipola, Reid, Parisse or Faletau are worse players than Denton.

Crane

https://s726.photobucket.com/user/TM_C/media/thomas-waldrom.jpg.html

This is Thomas Waldrom.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barney_Rubble

Just out of curiosity does anyone know of a site where you can see player stats such as tackles made, meters gained etc. from the 6 nations, pro 12, aviva etc.?

David Denton has a lot of support.

I hate the phrase 'world class' it is overused and all but meaningless

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Just out of curiosity does anyone know of a site where you can see player stats such as tackles made, meters gained etc. from the 6 nations, pro 12, aviva etc.?

Yes.

What is the name of the site pot?

Pocock has always been a top player but an Number 8 he is not,the "POOPER" was shown to be flawed,as in 2011 the AB backrow combined blew him away.
The core roles for an 8.lineout/restart option,controlling the base of the Scrum,cleaning ou rucks,tail gunner in rolling mauls etc.
Read due to several concussions is not qiute the force of 2013,and varied his role in
the AB set up with Mc Caw doing more of the grunt work.
The younger man doing the linking/support roles.
Pocock/Hooper as the best 7 is more like it

Read and Vermulan for me

After that Vunipola and Faletou are pretty much on a par in the NH. Billy carries far better while Toby grafts a lot more.

After that it's all a bit meh.

I'd have Denton and Heaslip joint last though.

This whole thread only exists because the press have talked Billy up after a couple of decent performances, it's actually hilarious. I call it the 'Burgess Factor'.

On next week's episode:

Is George Ford the greatest 10 the Northern Hemisphere has ever seen?

Gwlad I don't know if your stupidity is just an act or if you're genuinely thick as two short planks. Anyway you are wrong.

Billy isn't just flavour of the month - he's been one of England's best performers since last year's 6 nations. Not just a couple of decent performances. You Welsh were very fortunate he got injured against you in the RWC because up till his departure he was our best player in my opinion.

If you actually watched rugby you would realise that Billy was in the England side before Burgess.

I wouldn't waste your breath on Gwlad Beshocked, he knows what he's saying is untrue, he just says it as a cry for attention. Don't feed him.

http://www.standard.co.uk/sport/rugby/englands-billy-vunipola-is-nowhere-near-worlds-best-says-zinzan-brooke-a3176081.html

and he didn't even put Vermeulen in his top 4.

Brooke is probably the best eightman in recent history, doesn't mean its definitive all the same.

Honestly, I'm not even sure Heaslip is the best number 8 in the Ireland back row

Great players aren't always great pundits, I don't think Billy is the best in the world (Read and Thor by far the top 2 for me), but he could get there

Pele put Diouf in his greatest living footballers and left out Dennis Law. That is all.

fa0019

To be honest that article reads more as Zinzan having a pop at an Aussie like Eddie Jones than criticism of Billy.

The article suggests to me that Zinzan hasn't watched Billy before this year's 6 nations and also just tells me the type of no 8 that he likes. Billy simply isn't the type of 8 he likes.

He does make a valid point of Billy not being a lineout no 8 but you can get round that by giving responsbility to others. Robshaw is being used as a jumper instead.

I know for a fact that Dallaglio is a big fan of Billy's. Of course Dallaglio is biased but as no 8s go he was also one of the best.

You're always going to get some people for and against players.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Pele put Diouf in his greatest living footballers and left out Dennis Law. That is all.

probably didn't know Law was still alive and to be fair in those days Pele played all his football in brasil and only saw the rest of the world at the world cup. TV screening matches from across the globe didn't exist. Football is a little different in that its so vast... if you come from the wrong country you'll never be able to showcase your skills in the biggest tournaments. A bit like Parisse but to a far greater extent. HIs opinion of best probably came when he was 3st overweight in the USA.

Brooke was an exceptional eightman, knows the position through and through and still remains active in the game albeit not in coaching etc from what it seems. I'd say his view point is more valid than most.

Yeah George Weah had that issue of being from the wrong country. Never seen as the best in the world...

There are of course people who give opinions on players without paying a great deal of attention. Like beshocked says Brooke probably favours a different type of 8 but Vunipola has been a standout performer for a good year or so and when he keeps going he'll start to get the proper plaudits. Personally I don't think how good a player you are translates to how good your opinion is and how much you should be listened to. Jeremy Guscott etc

Don't have to be the best ever, just better than the other guy on the day.

What you can say of Billy is that he is increasingly influential in the games he plays and has been the standout forward in all of the matches he's played in this 6N

beshocked wrote:Gwlad I don't know if your stupidity is just an act or if you're genuinely thick as two short planks. Anyway you are wrong.

Ouch!

beshocked wrote:Gwlad I don't know if your stupidity is just an act or if you're genuinely thick as two short planks. Anyway you are wrong.

Billy isn't just flavour of the month - he's been one of England's best performers since last year's 6 nations. Not just a couple of decent performances. You Welsh were very fortunate he got injured against you in the RWC because up till his departure he was our best player in my opinion.

If you actually watched rugby you would realise that Billy was in the England side before Burgess.

Its my opinion so it can't be wrong. Subjective opinion is just that, an expression of my point of view. Yours for example, that Billy was your best player prior to going off with a sore leg, is entirely subjective.

As for your personal attack the least said the better.

Billy was extremely average in the RWC by the way. As for us being fortunate that he went off injured, guess what, you're wrong.
It wasn't Billy that cost you the game it was Lancaster by taking off Burgess, it allowed Doc over the gainline which he had been almost unable to do all game. Gave us some front foot ball and allowed us to attack your 5m as , unbelievably, your wingers were defending deep.

Simple really. And talking off simple, have a nice day beshocked.

Gwlad wrote: And talking off simple, have a nice day beshocked.

of*

Gwlad wrote:

beshocked wrote:Gwlad I don't know if your stupidity is just an act or if you're genuinely thick as two short planks. Anyway you are wrong.

Billy isn't just flavour of the month - he's been one of England's best performers since last year's 6 nations. Not just a couple of decent performances. You Welsh were very fortunate he got injured against you in the RWC because up till his departure he was our best player in my opinion.

If you actually watched rugby you would realise that Billy was in the England side before Burgess.

Its my opinion so it can't be wrong. Subjective opinion is just that, an expression of my point of view. Yours for example, that Billy was your best player prior to going off with a sore leg, is entirely subjective.

As for your personal attack the least said the better.

Billy was extremely average in the RWC by the way. As for us being fortunate that he went off injured, guess what, you're wrong.
It wasn't Billy that cost you the game it was Lancaster by taking off Burgess, it allowed Doc over the gainline which he had been almost unable to do all game. Gave us some front foot ball and allowed us to attack your 5m as , unbelievably, your wingers were defending deep.

Simple really. And talking off simple, have a nice day beshocked.

Of course opinions can be wrong. If I say that it is my opinion that the earth is flat then my opinion is both stupid and wrong.

True. But the opinion that Vunipola hasn't done enough to be really considered great IS a subjective opinion. And therefore can't really be wrong.

Opinions are like bumholes.

HammerofThunor wrote:True. But the opinion that Vunipola hasn't done enough to be really considered great IS a subjective opinion. And therefore can't really be wrong.

I don't even know what his opinion was that beshocked said was wrong. I just thought I would be annoying and pedantic and correct his comments on opinions.

It is amusing that someone got upset because their opinion was deemed to be wrong, and states opinions cannot be wrong whilst following up by claiming that the other persons opinion was indeed wrong.

Hypocritical much?

That's just your opinion Tigger

I avoid opinions

Vunipola very much belongs in a discussion around best number 8 in the form. He is on barnstorming form and for sheer power is neck and neck with Vermuelen. As rightly pointed out above he does more than simply carry the ball as well, his work rate has really stepped up in the last couple of season and his handling isn't bad either (although his ball skills are not yet in the same league as Read and Parisse, but few are in that regard).

Gwlad if you watched the game and used two eyes instead of one you would have seen that Billy was one of the best players on the pitch.

As for my personal attack, I am just saying what others are thinking.

Billy's importance is shown by the impact he makes when he's either on the pitch or absent.

Of course he's not perfect, he sometimes gets isolated, not a lineout option.

I voted for Read of course but Billy is a good no 8.

England were struggling against Fiji but Billy and other bench players helped give England good go forward. Billy scored the 4th try too.

I think it's subjective to say whether Billy is better than Vermeleun,Parisse, Faletau or worse than them. Still think he should be in the discussion when talking about no 8s.

Billy is certainly a better player than 2 years ago.

If he stays fit all year Billy will be playing Australia a few times, SA, (plus Argentina and Fiji). If he carries on as he has so far this will be an interesting conversation to revisit. But there is a lot of rugby to go

Any way your all wrong. Best 8 in the world is Phil Vickery. So good they make him at prop to not embarrass the rest.
And that's a100% scientific fact provable with maths.

carpet baboon wrote:Any way your all wrong. Best 8 in the world is Phil Vickery. So good they make him at prop to not embarrass the rest.
And that's a100% scientific fact provable with maths.

I believe he's never been tackled when playing no.8. Is this true?

lostinwales wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Any way your all wrong. Best 8 in the world is Phil Vickery. So good they make him at prop to not embarrass the rest.
And that's a100% scientific fact provable with maths.

I believe he's never been tackled when playing no.8. Is this true?

You are indeed correct.
Also whilst wearing the 8 Jersey no team has ever scored a point against his team

Will be a dark day when he retires.

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote: And talking off simple, have a nice day beshocked.

of*

wow, it's like being hunted by traffic wardens.

Can you tell me the spelling errors here?

fkuc rof

Gwlad wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

Gwlad wrote: And talking off simple, have a nice day beshocked.

of*

wow, it's like being hunted by traffic wardens.

Can you tell me the spelling errors here?

fkuc rof

Yes - there is no 'r' and 'off' has two 'f's.

Do I get a prize?

This reminds me of the dyslexic Mac Donald that had a farm:

Oieie, Ieoei.

Does anybody else think that thumb of Glad's should be stuck where the sun don't shine? It would make a great *rsehole blocker.

Pretty soon CJ Stander will force Heaslip out of 8 for Ireland and I think he has the potential to be one of the great 8's the game has seen

Can't believe how underrated Lobbe is on this.