Create a British and Irish league

Anyone else think it would be a good idea to merge the pro 12 and aviva premiership together and have 2 top professional leagues where sides get promoted and relegated between the two? I think this would be a far more attractive league for supporters and players alike, especially as the english and celts have such a big rivalry, this could potentially attract more supporters to games, generate more money and help towards growing the game?

Not really no.

The English can have the Italians though and then the SRU can bring back the Borders and split Munster into Cork and Limerick to make up the numbers.

As always when this comes up, I have to ask what would persuade PRL to do this?

Will it increase attendances amongst the members - probably not as a fair few teams are near capacity while most average more for AP than the visit of Pro12 teams.

Will it increase TV income? Probably not as any gain over the rather large BT contract would be lost by losing the euro comps.

will it drive more revenue from commercial partners. Probably not.


Thus to get PRL to agree to a B&I League you would need to appeal to their better nature. and that went walkabout many moons ago.

I think Stephen Ross does.

PotNoodleMiner wrote:Anyone else think it would be a good idea to merge the pro 12 and aviva premiership together and have 2 top professional leagues where sides get promoted and relegated between the two?  I think this would be a far more attractive league for supporters and players alike, especially as the english and celts have such a big rivalry, this could potentially attract more supporters to games, generate more money and help towards growing the game?

No, because the status quo wouldn't really change other than that relegation and promotion would be roughly where mid-table is now, rather than at the bottom.

I suppose it would benefit the Pro12 teams in that it would give them the experience required to qualify for European 1/4 finals at least

It makes a lot of sense for a B&I league. Won't happen. England have too much money and larger fanbases to mooch off than is gained by adding Ireland and Wales (Scotland is small but growing) and the added cost of sharing with them. The idea has been beaten to death. Pro 12 needs to focus on expanding to new frontiers (and Italy) and England needs to remove the salary cap to compete with the French.

As for European 1/4 finals, no one remembers who made it to the knockout stages, they remember who won it (Pro 12 (more accurately the Irish) = 6, Aviva = 6)

Hazel Sapling wrote:It makes a lot of sense for a B&I league. Won't happen. England have too much money and larger fanbases to mooch off than is gained by adding Ireland and Wales (Scotland is small but growing) and the added cost of sharing with them. The idea has been beaten to death. Pro 12 needs to focus on expanding to new frontiers (and Italy) and England needs to remove the salary cap to compete with the French.

As for European 1/4 finals, no one remembers who made it to the knockout stages, they remember who won it (Pro 12 (more accurately the Irish) = 6, Aviva = 6)

I wonder if Bath, Bristol, Exeter, Gloucester, Worcester and even London Irish would agree with you.

I'm sure that all would rather sell more tickets, or continue to sell out with higher price tickets, so I'm not sure that the bit in bold is especially true.

Welsh fans cannot be arsed to travel to regions home games, why would they travel that bit further to away games?

Oi, I have you know I shall be going to Gloucester on 9th April which is ample evidence of Welsh travelling fans.....if you ignore the fact that Gloucester is closer to me than 2 out of the other three regional grounds

Hope you are not driving after thse 3

PhilBB wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:It makes a lot of sense for a B&I league. Won't happen. England have too much money and larger fanbases to mooch off than is gained by adding Ireland and Wales (Scotland is small but growing) and the added cost of sharing with them. The idea has been beaten to death. Pro 12 needs to focus on expanding to new frontiers (and Italy) and England needs to remove the salary cap to compete with the French.

As for European 1/4 finals, no one remembers who made it to the knockout stages, they remember who won it (Pro 12 (more accurately the Irish) = 6, Aviva = 6)

I wonder if Bath, Bristol, Exeter, Gloucester, Worcester and even London Irish would agree with you.

I'm sure that all would rather sell more tickets, or continue to sell out with higher price tickets, so I'm not sure that the bit in bold is especially true.

Maybe the bold want the Welsh and maybe Sale/Newcastle/Yorkshire Carnegie would want Scots attendance wise (Edinburgh to Leeds is on the fast line, Glasgow to Manchester is a bit slower). TV money talks though. Those 10 pro12 clubs who would join should bring in more than the estimated £7.5m per annum than present in the next negotiation but this is not much to the £35.5m that the Aviva 12 gets including euro rights. Saracens, Leicester, Wasps, Harlequins (who charge £50 a ticket btw, absolutely ridiculous) and Northampton would not be keen to split their pie further. They would have to agree some share system like present which inevitably would screw someone for it to get approved by enough clubs (Could you imagine if Northampton had a bad year and got relegated in favour of Connacht? Leicester and Wasps would be furious at the loss of income)

It is all pie in the sky to be honest. Rugby has a lot of options open to it. Whether they take them is a different matter.

The only way I can see change occurring is if one new tournament could bring about more TV revenue than the other two combined.

If that were possible, personally, I'd like to see a European wide, season long, competition formatted along the lines of NFL.

10 conferences of four teams based on geography. Each team guaranteed 20 games a season by playing 3 teams in their conference home and away, then fourteen fixtures against teams from other conferences (to be determined any way you like). Winner from each conference plus best two runner up progress to a play off system.

LondonTiger wrote:Welsh fans cannot be arsed to travel to regions home games, why would they travel that bit further to away games?

Good question.

LondonTiger wrote:Welsh fans cannot be arsed to travel to regions home games, why would they travel that bit further to away games?

Because we'd be able to afford to have better teams, so they'd be worthy of following.

Lots of us in London for the Quins game, too.

Why would the English teams like to share money so that Welsh teams would be able to afford better teams?

Lots?

Compared to the 14k+ Tigers fans who bought tickets for last years away match with Wasps? Sorry but I do not see English clubs selling more tickets for the visit of Welsh teams than they do fir current AP matches. Half the clubs are operating at close to capacity as it is. All clubs (afaik) have lower attendances for Euro matches than for AP.

What about promotion/relagation out of the 2nd league?

There's talk of the English Premiership being ring-fenced but so far it's not a certainty, so the English Championship teams would still want a chance of promotion into the top teirs - and I'll tell you this for nowt - if there's money in the new structure you can bet your bottom dollar that a certain London team (who used to play at Oxford) will be putting more money into it's legal team than it's infrastructure if they get a sniff of this and are denied the chance to dip their snouts into the trough by a 'cartel'.

It's a less than lovely idea.

It's bad enough having to put up with the moaning Welsh fans in the Pro12, but think how many more there would be if they were in a Home Nations league and realised they were still pish? Insufferable.  And it wouldn't be fair on the English fans either.  

The Scottish and Irish fans should resist this idea at every turn.  And actively agree with/endorse the understandable reservations that English fans have.

It will never hppen for the simple reason 6 english teams would have to drop to the second division - and they are not going to accept that.

No advantages either for the pro12 teams half of whom would have to be in the second division

So - impossible, unworkable and no advantage to it. A pipe dream that will never happen

They tried to resurrect the idea again. It's dead it was a valiant attempt , but like the last time, it went nowhere.

Hazel Sapling wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:It makes a lot of sense for a B&I league. Won't happen. England have too much money and larger fanbases to mooch off than is gained by adding Ireland and Wales (Scotland is small but growing) and the added cost of sharing with them. The idea has been beaten to death. Pro 12 needs to focus on expanding to new frontiers (and Italy) and England needs to remove the salary cap to compete with the French.

As for European 1/4 finals, no one remembers who made it to the knockout stages, they remember who won it (Pro 12 (more accurately the Irish) = 6, Aviva = 6)

I wonder if Bath, Bristol, Exeter, Gloucester, Worcester and even London Irish would agree with you.

I'm sure that all would rather sell more tickets, or continue to sell out with higher price tickets, so I'm not sure that the bit in bold is especially true.

Maybe the bold want the Welsh and maybe Sale/Newcastle/Yorkshire Carnegie would want Scots attendance wise (Edinburgh to Leeds is on the fast line, Glasgow to Manchester is a bit slower). TV money talks though. Those 10 pro12 clubs who would join should bring in more than the estimated £7.5m per annum than present in the next negotiation but this is not much to the £35.5m that the Aviva 12 gets including euro rights. Saracens, Leicester, Wasps, Harlequins (who charge £50 a ticket btw, absolutely ridiculous) and Northampton would not be keen to split their pie further. They would have to agree some share system like present which inevitably would screw someone for it to get approved by enough clubs (Could you imagine if Northampton had a bad year and got relegated in favour of Connacht? Leicester and Wasps would be furious at the loss of income)

It is all pie in the sky to be honest. Rugby has a lot of options open to it. Whether they take them is a different matter.

Gerald Davies has said that the reason the TV/Sponsorship money is not as good for the PRO12 is down to Welsh Civil War. Its furture was too uncertain so they couldn't get any takers.[/quote]

It's not a debate any more. Maybe in a few years people will try again,but this last attempt is dead very very very dead.

No

Sin é wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Hazel Sapling wrote:It makes a lot of sense for a B&I league. Won't happen. England have too much money and larger fanbases to mooch off than is gained by adding Ireland and Wales (Scotland is small but growing) and the added cost of sharing with them. The idea has been beaten to death. Pro 12 needs to focus on expanding to new frontiers (and Italy) and England needs to remove the salary cap to compete with the French.

As for European 1/4 finals, no one remembers who made it to the knockout stages, they remember who won it (Pro 12 (more accurately the Irish) = 6, Aviva = 6)

I wonder if Bath, Bristol, Exeter, Gloucester, Worcester and even London Irish would agree with you.

I'm sure that all would rather sell more tickets, or continue to sell out with higher price tickets, so I'm not sure that the bit in bold is especially true.

Maybe the bold want the Welsh and maybe Sale/Newcastle/Yorkshire Carnegie would want Scots attendance wise (Edinburgh to Leeds is on the fast line, Glasgow to Manchester is a bit slower). TV money talks though. Those 10 pro12 clubs who would join should bring in more than the estimated £7.5m per annum than present in the next negotiation but this is not much to the £35.5m that the Aviva 12 gets including euro rights. Saracens, Leicester, Wasps, Harlequins (who charge £50 a ticket btw, absolutely ridiculous) and Northampton would not be keen to split their pie further. They would have to agree some share system like present which inevitably would screw someone for it to get approved by enough clubs (Could you imagine if Northampton had a bad year and got relegated in favour of Connacht? Leicester and Wasps would be furious at the loss of income)

It is all pie in the sky to be honest. Rugby has a lot of options open to it. Whether they take them is a different matter.

Gerald Davies has said that the reason the TV/Sponsorship money is not as good for the PRO12 is down to Welsh Civil War. Its furture was too uncertain so they couldn't get any takers.

[/quote]
It can't help to be trying to sell into a number of different TV markets and in the UK market to just relatively small pockets of that market.

Right now it seems like this Irish and English don't want it, the Welsh do, and the Scots- I don't know. So thats only 4 out of 22 teams I'd be fairly sure would push for it.

Unless the English change their mind it's pie in the sky. The only thing that would change the IRFUs mind would be if the English tried to do what they did when the European Cup was restructured and even then you're looking a long, acrimonious battle. The Welsh by themselves have no power to make this happen.

Exiledinborders wrote:
It can't help to be trying to sell into a number of different TV markets and in the UK market to just relatively small pockets of that market.  

The market is the UK. There are 1000s of celts living in England. The reason why some of the English clubs wanted the Irish Provincial teams in a B&I league is because of the number of Irish people living in England and who tend go and support their teams when playing over there. Its also cross province as well, not just your own province.

BT declined to bid for the PRO12 rights last time around (they were in the process of trying to break the celtic unions to get a slice of the European rugby pie). Now that they have accomplished that, it will be interesting to see how well they will compete next time around with Sky.

As a matter of interest, was there ever a breakdown given as to what the value of Aviva Premiership's deal was (i.e., what percentage came from domestic rugby and what percentage came from European rugby).

A nice B&I League?  

A nice two tier one too!!! - if'n you don't be minding.... for handiness sake and all.  

A nice home from home 2nd Class League ready and waiting for all the 'Celtic teams' to kick up some fun in (with their own standard of rugby that wot they can compete in)

.... and adding more to the PRL fruit cake of profits that they can then throw even more dough at the Higher Special Important High End Mucho Dosh League (The Aviva HSIHEMD League) - where of course all the best English teams, best coaches and best Irish, Welsh and Scottish players will be.

NICE!

Bring it on.  I'm a turkey for that dinner!

Short discussion on Against The Head this evening where Joanne Cantwell talked about the new US deal negotiated for the English Premiership and the ever widening gap with the PRO12 and asked what should the Irish teams/IRFU do? The immediate response was try and create a British & Irish league but the chances of it happening were remote given the financial health of the Premiership currently.

Pot Hale wrote:Short discussion on Against The Head this evening where Joanne Cantwell talked about the new US deal negotiated for the English Premiership and the ever widening gap with the PRO12 and asked what should the Irish teams/IRFU do?   The immediate response was try and create a British & Irish league but the chances of it happening were remote given the financial health of the Premiership currently.

Who are these people making these claims?

Most of the Premiership teams lose money.

Phill any news?

carpet baboon wrote:Phill  any news?

Nothing this week, Champ.

You need a new source chump

carpet baboon wrote:You need a new source chump

Cheers, Baby. I'll keep that in mind.

I'll pass on your regards to mine.

Sorry I do not have a source and have never claimed to either Phil.
But feel free to say hi to yours

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Short discussion on Against The Head this evening where Joanne Cantwell talked about the new US deal negotiated for the English Premiership and the ever widening gap with the PRO12 and asked what should the Irish teams/IRFU do?   The immediate response was try and create a British & Irish league but the chances of it happening were remote given the financial health of the Premiership currently.

Who are these people making these claims?

Most of the Premiership teams lose money.

Indeed, some of them appear to. And some of them don't.

LondonTiger wrote:Welsh fans cannot be arsed to travel to regions home games, why would they travel that bit further to away games?

When something like this comes up I always ask the question how well would English 'Regions' be supported if their teams were forced to merge.  Now you will never know the answer but as poorly as Welsh Regions I imagine, I can't see Tigers fans being happy having to travel to say a Franklins Garden to support a Midlands Region which in Northampton in all bar name or Gloucester fans travelling to the Rec to watch a West Country Region which is Bath in all bar name.

As for a league itself well we were quite close to one an Ano-Welsh one years back when we still had the club system but the greed of the WRU got in the way again.

We were offered 4 places Cardiff, Swansea, Newport and Llanelli I believe with Neath and Pontypridd going into a 2nd division but the WRU wanted 6 in the top flight and wouldn't budge on it. Both Unions stuck to their guns so we ended up with nothing.

I remember an interview with Jinks and he said the WRU were wrong to refuse as he felt at the time Neath and Ponty were strong enough to win promotion within a season or two and then the WRU would have had (in theory) their 6 teams in top league.

PhilBB wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Short discussion on Against The Head this evening where Joanne Cantwell talked about the new US deal negotiated for the English Premiership and the ever widening gap with the PRO12 and asked what should the Irish teams/IRFU do?   The immediate response was try and create a British & Irish league but the chances of it happening were remote given the financial health of the Premiership currently.

Who are these people making these claims?

Most of the Premiership teams lose money.

Given they have increased their tv revenue then that trend should change but they meant the financial health of the league not the teams within the league

LondonTiger wrote:Welsh fans cannot be arsed to travel to regions home games, why would they travel that bit further to away games?

Don't forget travelling support makes a fair bit on the gates for teams in all competitions. When the Scarlets have an attendance of 9k in the league, that is with generally no more than 100-200 away fans. Regardless of how well the Irish are know to travel in support of their provinces in the Euro comps, sadly in the league they are almost non-existent at away games. The regions seem to be pretty capable to selling out their grounds for matches when the opposition have fans come to watch too (regional derbies)

marty2086 wrote:

Given they have increased their tv revenue then that trend should change but they meant the financial health of the league not the teams within the league

No, it won't. Look at the figures involved.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Given they have increased their tv revenue then that trend should change but they meant the financial health of the league not the teams within the league

No, it won't. Look at the figures involved.

Considering most already make a profit and others such as Sale are restructuring even prior to the new deal then actually it should at least decrease debts in the short term and improve their positions in the long term

marty2086 wrote:

Considering most already make a profit and others such as Sale are restructuring even prior to the new deal then actually it should at least decrease debts in the short term and improve their positions in the long term

You seem to be claiming that 'most' AP teams 'make a profit'.

Before we proceed, can you confirm that is your belief. Thanks.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Considering most already make a profit and others such as Sale are restructuring even prior to the new deal then actually it should at least decrease debts in the short term and improve their positions in the long term

You seem to be claiming that 'most' AP teams 'make a profit'.

Before we proceed, can you confirm that is your belief. Thanks.

Clubs who were once being run as private indulgences are now serious enterprises. Not every club make a profit but the majority are at least getting there.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/02/24/gloucester-takeover-by-martin-st-quinton-showed-how-english-rugb/

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Considering most already make a profit and others such as Sale are restructuring even prior to the new deal then actually it should at least decrease debts in the short term and improve their positions in the long term

You seem to be claiming that 'most' AP teams 'make a profit'.

Before we proceed, can you confirm that is your belief. Thanks.

Clubs who were once being run as private indulgences are now serious enterprises. Not every club make a profit but the majority are at least getting there.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/02/24/gloucester-takeover-by-martin-st-quinton-showed-how-english-rugb/

That doesn't answer my question.

You wrote: "most already make a profit". Do you stand by that?

4 do previously. Wasps may well do now. Who knows on the others at the moment. But 4 (or 5) isn't a majority.

(Those four are Tigers, Saints, Exeter and Gloucester)

carpet baboon wrote:Sorry I do not have a source and have never claimed  to either Phil.
But feel free to say hi to yours

Oh.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Considering most already make a profit and others such as Sale are restructuring even prior to the new deal then actually it should at least decrease debts in the short term and improve their positions in the long term

You seem to be claiming that 'most' AP teams 'make a profit'.

Before we proceed, can you confirm that is your belief. Thanks.

Clubs who were once being run as private indulgences are now serious enterprises. Not every club make a profit but the majority are at least getting there.'

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/02/24/gloucester-takeover-by-martin-st-quinton-showed-how-english-rugb/

That doesn't answer my question.

You wrote: "most already make a profit". Do you stand by that?

What does it matter?.

marty2086 wrote:
What does it matter?.

It matters because it underlines your credibility on, and exposure to, this subject.

You wrote something, yet again, that was completely inaccurate and, yet again, you've lacked the balls to admit it.

So, either stand by it or admit an error, so that we can move on to the issue in hand.

Ball is in your court. Man up time?

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Sorry I do not have a source and have never claimed  to either Phil.
But feel free to say hi to yours

Oh.

You have an issue with this phill?

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Sorry I do not have a source and have never claimed  to either Phil.
But feel free to say hi to yours

Oh.

You have an issue with this phill?

Quite the opposite.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
What does it matter?.

It matters because it underlines your credibility on, and exposure to, this subject.

You wrote something, yet again, that was completely inaccurate and, yet again, you've lacked the balls to admit it.

So, either stand by it or admit an error, so that we can move on to the issue in hand.

Ball is in your court. Man up time?

Well are you going to admit you were wrong when you said the tv deal shouldn't help see a change in those turning a profit?

As someone on here stated at some point there are 4 who turn a profit and Wasps should be on that list now too though I don't think thats official

My recollection of Healeys article was he had said most do rather than the majority will, I was wrong, unlike some I am capable of saying Im wrong rather than telling people what they said or what they were thinking to move the goalposts when Im wrong