Why I gave up on Scotland

We've got an article up about the atmosphere at Scotland.

http://www.scotlandrugbynews.com/2016/03/the-day-i-lost-faith-in-scotland/

I was wondering how opposition supporters see it? Are Scotland fans passionate?

Obviously we're hoping that singing will improve things, but any other ideas would be wonderful.

Interpretive jazz dance?

carpet baboon wrote:Interpretive jazz dance?

In silence with intense eye contact?

Scotland have a good side and play nice rugby. I wouldn't give up.

Something is going wrong though IMO. They should have defeated England this year.

I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SRN wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Interpretive jazz dance?

In silence with intense eye contact?

That's the way

Have Scottish fans forgotten what to sing when there's 10 minutes to go and they are still in with a chance

Murrayfield, for atmosphere and fan engagement, is probably the worst stadium out of them all. Any sign of passion or cheering, is often met with the old brigade's cold stares.

In fact, on one occasion, one of our party was told to sit down as he 'wasn't at a bloody football match'.

For the last 15 years or so, I have always preferred to travel to away games where you can at least have a laugh.

I think Scottish fans are much more realistic than other fans because of the amount of false dawns. Being anointed dark horses repeatedly can take a toll on a side.

This Peter McGunnigal doesn't seem to understand that there's been so little for Scotland to be positive about!

How can Scotland fans have belief when the team don't?

The Scottish side need to give something for the fans to get behind.

Cotter is your best coach in years and even he's struggled to turn things around because of the lack of belief. It's his job to instill belief in the team.

The atmosphere has been flat at Murrayfield because of the lack of anything to cheer about.

It's been a long time since Scotland scored a try vs England at Murrayfield - not good enough.

Scottish fans were given something to cheer for in the RWC and the neutrals wanted them to beat Australia.

Scotland might have been within 7 points vs England but they weren't playing with the same vigour they did vs Australia.

Now that's perhaps because they have more belief they can beat Australia but England based on current form aren't as strong as Australia.

I would suggest that Scottish fans should be positive and believe that they can beat France.

Don't focus on the lack of victories over France, look at France as a team who have been struggling for form and continuity.

In all fairness Scotland should definitely beat France. They have a better team right now.

Italy and Ireland should have beaten France......

France found a way to win despite being the most disorganised side in the competition.

2/3 despite not playing well at all. I haven't seen anything from France to suggest they'll turn on the style vs Scotland but France might just go against the grain and put in a top class performance. We'll see.

Scotland just to make sure they are clinical and play for the full 80. France are disorganised but will physically look to rough up Scotland like they did Ireland. Scotland Need to front up physically. They've have had practice after facing England and Wales but both sides in my opinion wore Scotland down.

GunsGerms wrote:Scotland have a good side and play nice rugby. I wouldn't give up.

Something is going wrong though IMO. They should have defeated England this year.

I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

should have, could have, ifs and buts.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Murrayfield, for atmosphere and fan engagement, is probably the worst stadium out of them all. Any sign of passion or cheering, is often met with the old brigade's cold stares.

In fact, on one occasion, one of our party was told to sit down as he 'wasn't at a bloody football match'.

For the last 15 years or so, I have always preferred to travel to away games where you can at least have a laugh.

Don't get me started on FES's com-padres with the Barbour jackets and tweed trousers! I got "shhhhh'd" at Murrayfield once! WTF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Part of the reason I tend to watch most games on the tele box rather than to sit in a cold, quiet, Murrayfield sitting far far away from the pitch.

The atmosphere is easy to fix. Get a bunch of the lads to go to a game, and ignore the old fuddy duddies. Next game I'm going to I'm gonna take bloody song sheets with me. if we're losing at halftime, the first song sung as the second half kicks off will be "I get knocked down, but i get up again" by chumbawumba (tubthumping?). If we're winning, a simple tune of "if yer happy and you know it clap yer hands" will be tune of choice!

Start of with some simple ones then introduce new, rousing, passionate, team inspiring songs as we go!

TightHEAD wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:Scotland have a good side and play nice rugby. I wouldn't give up.

Something is going wrong though IMO. They should have defeated England this year.

I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 should have, could have, ifs and buts.

Scotland show England way too much respect.

You wouldn't have ever found John Jeffrey nor Findlay Caulder showing England or anyone too much respect. I don't think either were as gifted as some of the back row forwards Scotland have now but even if at times they weren't talented enough to impose their own game, they certainly would make sure that the opposition could not impose theirs.

GunsGerms wrote:
I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, and it's mirrored in their fans on 606, with their rational and mainly unbiased posts and a sense of realism. You've all forgotten how be Scottish!!!

Hold on there - I never wear Barbour and tweed to the rugby, it's strictly red corduroys for me these days.

I've only ever shhhh'd someone once at the rugby, and was a muppet booing Ronan O'Gara trying to take a kick. I hate that.

My wife is Scottish and it has got to the point where her friends in Edinburgh enjoy the dark humour of another close defeat more than the game itself. I find myself as an Englishman trying to keep their spirits up when having a beer and discussing rugby form. Although I do refer to the SNP as all fur coat and no knickers and that usually cheers them up.......

Hoonercat wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, and it's mirrored in their fans on 606, with their rational and mainly unbiased posts and a sense of realism. You've all forgotten how be Scottish!!!

We are like the Canada of rugby fans, only less maple syrup

Hoonercat wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, and it's mirrored in their fans on 606, with their rational and mainly unbiased posts and a sense of realism. You've all forgotten how be Scottish!!!

Are you asking us to be belligerent wallopers? It can be done!

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, and it's mirrored in their fans on 606, with their rational and mainly unbiased posts and a sense of realism. You've all forgotten how be Scottish!!!

Are you asking us to be belligerent wallopers? It can be done!

We will never be as world class as the Welsh at it though!

cakeordeath wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

Hoonercat wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, and it's mirrored in their fans on 606, with their rational and mainly unbiased posts and a sense of realism. You've all forgotten how be Scottish!!!

Are you asking us to be belligerent wallopers? It can be done!

We will never be as world class as the Welsh at it though!

Alun Wyn Jones

Billy Vunipola

Sergio Parisse

Paul O'Connell

Overated

Hoonercat wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:
I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Agree, and it's mirrored in their fans on 606, with their rational and mainly unbiased posts and a sense of realism. You've all forgotten how be Scottish!!!

You clearly haven't spoken to anyone from Ayr...

GunsGerms wrote:Scotland have a good side and play nice rugby. I wouldn't give up.

Something is going wrong though IMO. They should have defeated England this year.

I think Scotland are missing a real, dirty, nasty character to lead from the front and intimidate opposition. Laidlaw isn't going to scare anyone.

YOU ARE TOO NICE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Well we did have Jim Hamilton for 70 minutes of every match....

Actually I think you'll find our new "tough guy" is Ryan Wilson. He's really scary.......in fancy dress...

funnyExiledScot wrote:Hold on there - I never wear Barbour and tweed to the rugby, it's strictly red corduroys for me these days.

I've only ever shhhh'd someone once at the rugby, and was a muppet booing Ronan O'Gara trying to take a kick. I hate that.

Shhhh'ing a boo'er or whistler when a kick is being taken is acceptable. So is punching them in the face.

But don't shhh a fan at scrum time for shouting various words (non offensive) of encouragement to the team!

Having spent the majority of my teenage years going to Aussie Rules Football matches where everyone yells and gets quite lively, I've often found Murrayfield as quite a reserved crowd. For many Scotland matches, especially when Scotland go behind on the scoreboard, I feel as though I need to control my support for the team.

I actually wrote a similar post to this one about the atmosphere at Murrayfield a few years ago. I think last few times I have been it has been better but I would love fans to sing more songs. It always seems to be chelsea dagger on the PA system when Scotland score points and "Scotland! Scotland!" chants or very rarely, oh flower of Scotland. What about Scotland the brave? or Highland Cathedral or Loch Lomond? loads of good Scottish songs no one sings. I think the idea of singing at 22 and 72 mins is great!!

As far as 6N fans go, us Scotland fans are wooden spooners for home atmosphere.

bsando wrote:Having spent the majority of my teenage years going to Aussie Rules Football matches where everyone yells and gets quite lively, I've often found Murrayfield as quite a reserved crowd. For many Scotland matches, especially when Scotland go behind on the scoreboard, I feel as though I need to control my support for the team.

I actually wrote a similar post to this one about the atmosphere at Murrayfield a few years ago. I think last few times I have been it has been better but I would love fans to sing more songs. It always seems to be chelsea dagger on the PA system when Scotland score points and "Scotland! Scotland!" chants or very rarely, oh flower of Scotland. What about Scotland the brave? or Highland Cathedral or Loch Lomond? loads of good Scottish songs no one sings. I think the idea of singing at 22 and 72 mins is great!!

As far as 6N fans go, us Scotland fans are wooden spooners for home atmosphere.

The proclaimers have a few classics that could be sung.

I'm on my way from misery to happiness, being one of them.

no proclaimers allowed!

We've got rakes of decent tunes that can be sung! Even more than the Welsh. I think as a nation we just don't like being extroverted. We don't like making a balloon of ourselves unless drunk!

Songs that could be sung:
A Man's A Man For A' That
Amazing Grace
Auld Lang Syne
Caledonia
Donald, Where's Yer Troosers?
Loch Lomond
MacPherson's Lament
O Scotland's Hills for Me!
Roamin' in the Gloamin'
Scotland the Brave
Scots Wha Hae
Skye Boat Song
Star o' Rabbie Burns
We're a' John Tamson's Bairns
Wild Mountain Thyme
Ye Jacobites by Name

Thats just some old folk songs! We've got new ones to!
Why does it always rain on me - by travis! Or some songs by Texas or Biffy Clyro? Isn't "I predict a riot" from a Scots band?

crikey, even Advance Australia Fair was written by a Scots bloke!

Lets get singing!

I'd love if we could get the whole stadium singing "heads, shoulders, knees and toes"

Gunsgerms you showed Billy way too much respect too, letting him make metre after metre.


Scottish fans should really sing some songs by Travis in my opinion. Some seem to sum up Scottish rugby nicely too.

Oh Tattie beat me to it fair enough.

No you're not passionate. Neither are the Ireland fans.

It's a function of test matches being more of a very middle class day out than anything else. I can't think of any national stadium where the fans are as passionate as the ones you find at club level.

Compare Scotstoun to Murrayfield
Welford Road to Twickenham
Ravenhill to the AVIVA
Stade Felix Mayol to the Stade de France

Scotland at least aren't far off getting in the top half of the table imo, previously they've been obviously second best in most games....but now they are really looking like very nearly a good side, they just need to learn how to get over the line.

Nothing at all wrong with Scottish fans their as passionate as any other fans in the world.   It's more down to them being let down by the players, who are in turn let down by the SRU.  

I feel like a broken record saying this year on year but Scotland can't improve because the SRU basically killed the game at the start of professionalism.  The WRU near bankrupted themselves, but fought back and recovered.  All the SRU really did was redevelop Murrayfield and destroyed their rugby infrastructure to do it.  

The argument I put forward is this.  Look on Wikipedia for old U20 World Cup results in past years, and look at Scotland's results AND their teams.  Firstly their results are decent enough, meaning Scotland are doing nothing wrong at U20 level, but look what happened to those players AFTER that age group.  Few if any of them made it as a professional, or made any notable progress after that point.  Basically their names are in red and they have no wiki page.  Now look at almost all the other major nations.  Two thirds to three quarters have a wiki page dedicated to them, simply because they had the chance of a professional career, ok granted many didn't go on to win full honors, but nearly ALL had the chance to develop as a full time professional.  
Wales and Ireland have four teams so twice as many players get the chance to "make it", that's key because they have more chance of developing quality players AND strength in depth.  Most players in major nations at an U20 world cup would of been at a region / province up until their early to mid 20's.  Some may of dropped down to a more suitable level and some would of gone on to have professional careers.

There is only so many times you can sack GOOD coaches, and only so many chances players should be able to make the same mistakes, but if they never get dropped for those mistakes then nothing changes.  Also, as a result of a lack of strength in depth once a player cements his place he isn't really kept on his toes and can coast along to keep his spot.  

For me the improvement STARTS with the reformation of Scottish Borders, with a long term aim of reforming Caledonia.  People make the argument that Scotland can't afford it, yet when it's been mentioned that Wales reduces to three teams and scraps the Dragons, the WRU came out and said that the regions more or less pay for themselves and the loss of over all sponsorship from not having them will leave no positive financial or competitive improvement.  For all their faults the Dragons have developed a hell of a lot of talent and even produced good players from picking players up from the lower Welsh leagues.  

I doubt anyone read this far down, and many will probably chew my head off, but at least it's an honest opinion.

The Scottish fans are disheartened not dis-passionate.

Notch wrote:No you're not passionate. Neither are the Ireland fans.

It's a function of test matches being more of a very middle class day out than anything else. I can't think of any national stadium where the fans are as passionate as the ones you find at club level.

Compare Scotstoun to Murrayfield
Welford Road to Twickenham
Ravenhill to the AVIVA
Stade Felix Mayol to the Stade de France

I quite agree. People tend to think the crowd reflects a national characteristic, but as you say when you look at atmospheres at club grounds there is a world of difference, so it's more about sub-culture I think.

Shifty wrote:Nothing at all wrong with Scottish fans their as passionate as any other fans in the world.   It's more down to them being let down by the players, who are in turn let down by the SRU.  

I feel like a broken record saying this year on year but Scotland can't improve because the SRU basically killed the game at the start of professionalism.  The WRU near bankrupted themselves, but fought back and recovered.  All the SRU really did was redevelop Murrayfield and destroyed their rugby infrastructure to do it.  

The argument I put forward is this.  Look on Wikipedia for old U20 World Cup results in past years, and look at Scotland's results AND their teams.  Firstly their results are decent enough, meaning Scotland are doing nothing wrong at U20 level, but look what happened to those players AFTER that age group.  Few if any of them made it as a professional, or made any notable progress after that point.  Basically their names are in red and they have no wiki page.  Now look at almost all the other major nations.  Two thirds to three quarters have a wiki page dedicated to them, simply because they had the chance of a professional career, ok granted many didn't go on to win full honors, but nearly ALL had the chance to develop as a full time professional.  
Wales and Ireland have four teams so twice as many players get the chance to "make it", that's key because they have more chance of developing quality players AND strength in depth.  Most players in major nations at an U20 world cup would of been at a region / province up until their early to mid 20's.  Some may of dropped down to a more suitable level and some would of gone on to have professional careers.

There is only so many times you can sack GOOD coaches, and only so many chances players should be able to make the same mistakes, but if they never get dropped for those mistakes then nothing changes.  Also, as a result of a lack of strength in depth once a player cements his place he isn't really kept on his toes and can coast along to keep his spot.  

For me the improvement STARTS with the reformation of Scottish Borders, with a long term aim of reforming Caledonia.  People make the argument that Scotland can't afford it, yet when it's been mentioned that Wales reduces to three teams and scraps the Dragons, the WRU came out and said that the regions more or less pay for themselves and the loss of over all sponsorship from not having them will leave no positive financial or competitive improvement.  For all their faults the Dragons have developed a hell of a lot of talent and even produced good players from picking players up from the lower Welsh leagues.  

I doubt anyone read this far down, and many will probably chew my head off, but at least it's an honest opinion.

The Scottish fans are disheartened not dis-passionate.

You're probably right Shifty, I don't personally know much about Scotland's U20 programme nor the SRU history of developing talent. However, I get the impression that they're learning from their mistakes now and making amends. Unfortunately Scottish fans have endured close to two decades of inconsistent performances and numerous losses.

The future looks bright though, I think the SRU are doing the right things. Just look at Glasgow, they have a passionate group of supporters and a Pro12 winning team in arguably the most football mad city in the UK.

Shifty wrote:Nothing at all wrong with Scottish fans their as passionate as any other fans in the world.   It's more down to them being let down by the players, who are in turn let down by the SRU.  

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I doubt anyone read this far down, and many will probably chew my head off, but at least it's an honest opinion.

The Scottish fans are disheartened not dis-passionate.

Good points. However, when I look at the Scottish national football team, and how far they are down the ranking in their sport compared to Scotland Rugby team (still firmly in the 6N family, and one of the T1 unions that run the game), yet the atmosphere at Hampden on international nights (when its full) is still something to behold, especially the big nights.

Sadly, the decline of Rugby in Scotland is mirrored by the decline of the football team too, which suggests perhaps there is something more general at a societal level that is to blame.

Turns out you don't need planned singalongs, just a winning Scotland team playing great rugby.

That was one of the best atmosphere's at Murrayfield that I've ever been at!

I was at the Scotland v England game. I too was struck by the lack of support given to the Scottish team. The Scottish crowd only became animated by:
- Owen Farrell lining up to take a place kick
- Dylan Hartley appearing on the big screen
- We English singing Swing Low

Rather than hating the opposition support your own team.

Having been to Murrayfeild many times itsw winning rugby that gets the fans going - something positive.