6 Nations - Team of the Tournament

First topic message reminder :

Time to take my life and my testicles in my hands and have a go at this.

My Gaff, My Rules:
- 23 players please.
- Players picked in the positions they played in the most.
- You can't criticise someone else's team without also stating your own.
- Emphasis should be on players who have been strongest throughout the tournament as a whole.
- Picking a player on the back of one superlative performance only will need to be justified.
- Any player sitting out one or more games will obviously be at a disadvantage.

Trying hard to be objective, I would go with something like:

01 Jack McGrath (Ireland)
02 Guilhem Guirado (France)
03 Willem Nel (Scotland)
04 Alun Wyn Jones (Wales) (captain)
05 George Kruis (England)
06 CJ Stander (Ireland)
07 John Hardie (Scotland)
08 Billy Vunipola (England)

09 Gareth Davies (Wales)
10 Dan Biggar (Wales)
11 Jack Nowell (England)
12 Jamie Roberts (Wales)
13 Jonathan Joseph (England)
14 George North (Wales)
15 Stuart Hogg (Scotland)

16 Alasdair Dickinson (Scotland)
17 Dylan Hartley (England)
18 Samson Lee (Wales)
19 Maro Itoje (England)
20 Taulupe Faletau (Wales)
21 Greig Laidlaw (Scotland)
22 Jonathan Sexton (Ireland)
23 Antony Watson (England)

Players it was particularly difficult to leave out:
Jamie Heaslip (Ireland)
Mike Brown (England)
Damien Chouly (France)
Sean Cronin (Ireland)
Connor Murray (Ireland)
Jonny Gray (Scotland)
Carlo Canna (Italy)
Virimi Vakatawa (France)

Be polite, now.

RDW_Scotland wrote:Duncan Taylor certainly had the most standout individual moments but he didn't feature in the first game and a half.

If that's going to count against Duncan Taylor, it should also count against Maro Itoje.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

TJ wrote: bet you none of the other contenders are anywhere near his tackle count

To be fair that is mainly because Scotland have had to do a lot more tackles than other teams!

Stats like tackling really aren't comparable with players from other teams.

Jonny made a lot of tackles because as a team we had to make a lot.

The fact that he made so many compared to other Scottish players is a big achievement however!

Its the not missing a single one thats really impressive. He just never misses. That and his involvement in all aspects of the game

What idiots. These may be very good Team of the Tournament Selections....but are they the full story????

No, of course not.

What about the Team of the Tournament if This was a Lions Year?
What about a Direct Lions Team of the Tournament (if France and Italy were let join)?
What about not mentioning 'Italy' so much Fly??! It's bad karma these days.....
What about a Team of the Tournament if all sides had all their Players to choose from?
What about a Team of the Tournament if Wales had won?

You guys are a long way off getting this Team of the Tournament thread finished anytime soon.

I'm not doubting Gray's abilities, there has just been a lot of standout lock performances this tournament.

Gusgott picked AWJ despite having a fairly quiet tournament by his standards and missing the last two games FFS!

TJ Those carries are very poor though. Going backwards most of the time.

Two lineout steals in the entire tournament?

I am sure both Itoje and Kruis got more than that and Itoje only played 3 and a bit games.

Kruis got 6.

I know Itoje topped the tackle count vs Ireland and Wales for England. Missed some admittedly.


Nothing much in the attacking stats except Kruis bursting through to score a try vs Scotland...shrugging off the tackle of one of his rival 2nd rowers...


luckless pedestrian not the fault of the player if he isn't picked.

beshocked wrote:TJ Those carries are very poor though. Going backwards most of the time.

You're better than that gross exaggeration and generalisation Beshocked!

Gray's ball carrying is one of the best parts of his game. We're talking about getting over the gainline here over eye catching line breaks, the kind of carries your tight 5 forwards should regularly be doing.

For the same reasons I'd discount Toner. He had his moments but he had a very bad game against England.

TJ wrote:Kruis V Jonny - Gray 15 tackles none missed.  Kruis 16 Tackles 1 missed in the head to head match.  Nothing much in the attacking stats with jonny getting his hands on the ball a lot more , Kruis got a lineout steal

Food for thought?

Jonny also missed a game through injury so he'd have had more tackles!

I can't see passed a J Gray/Itoje 2nd row for the lions next year!

I definitely think Gray deserves a mention: had him on the bench personally as I think he was a bit less influential than Itoje, while Kruis was IMO the best lock of the tournament, just all round excellence throughout. J. Gray was as pointed out a bit quiet against France say, and didn't play every game.

Re Taylor for the OC centre spot, didn't Taylor play one match on the wing and (at least) another at IC? Think it's only the last two games he started at OC? By GC's rules that makes it harder to pick him there, but would definitely have him on the bench. Don't think it was a great tournament for OCs in all honesty...

RDW Scotland I think it depends on how much you think a player has influenced a match.

Personally I think Itoje and Kruis have done that more than J.Gray

Itoje's turnover rate has been ridiculously high for a lock - I think 7 in 3 and a bit games.

Given away some penalties but that's because he's aggressively attacked the breakdown. It's his slowing of the ball and unseen work which is so strong too.

Also both have more lineout steals than Gray - I think 6 for Kruis in 5 games, 4 for Itoje in 3 and a bit.

Has Gray scored a try or set one up? Kruis scored one vs Scotland by smashing through R.Gray, Itoje smashed through Baldwin and Biggar for a try assist vs Wales.


Both Kruis and Itoje have had good workrates too - nice tackle counts.

beshocked wrote:
RDW Scotland I think it depends on how much you think a player has influenced a match.

Personally I think Itoje and Kruis have done that more than J.Gray

Itoje's turnover rate has been ridiculously high for a lock - I think 7 in 3 and a bit games.

Given away some penalties but that's because he's aggressively attacked the breakdown. It's his slowing of the ball and unseen work which is so strong too.

Also both have more lineout steals than Gray - I think 6 for Kruis in 5 games, 4 for Itoje in 3 and a bit.

Has Gray scored a try or set one up? Both Kruis and Itoje have had good workrates too - nice tackle counts.

I'm not trying to justify Gray over those two - I just think you are being overly harsh and completely simplifying performance criteria for the players.

They are all great locks who have difference facets to their game. Jonny Gray isn't used to disrupt lineout ball for Scotland because Richie is 3 inches taller. Does that make it a fair comparison between Jonny and Kruis?

Are turnovers really the leading stat when it comes to lock performance? Again this isn't downplaying Itoje but you are trotting out these stats yet it is far more complicated than that IMO.

How many of you are picking players on past glories, Sexton! really......!

Gray had a good tournament but a performance isn't just about stats. They are important but don't tell the whole story.

Turnovers might not be the criteria for a lock but it's an additional strength which has really helped England.

It's common knowledge England struggled at the breakdown at the RWC. I personally believe that some of the slack has been taken up by Itoje. Sharing the load.

It's about the complete package. Leadership comes into it too - Itoje and Kruis have taken on leadership roles for England.

Perhaps it's not fair to compare Jonny and Kruis directly because a 2nd row isn't just about an individual, it's about the pack and other players too.

Itoje-Kruis has been a great combo. I wouldn't say the Gray bros has been as good. Does that make J.Gray better or worse than his opposite numbers?

Can interpret it as you want.

As for ball carrying I feel that Kruis and Itoje have had more of a positive impact. They haven't been ball carrying monsters but I feel what they've added on balance has been greater.

Maybe in an England pack - J.Gray would shine more, we'll never know.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

beshocked wrote:
RDW Scotland I think it depends on how much you think a player has influenced a match.

Personally I think Itoje and Kruis have done that more than J.Gray

Itoje's turnover rate has been ridiculously high for a lock - I think 7 in 3 and a bit games.

Given away some penalties but that's because he's aggressively attacked the breakdown. It's his slowing of the ball and unseen work which is so strong too.

Also both have more lineout steals than Gray - I think 6 for Kruis in 5 games, 4 for Itoje in 3 and a bit.

Has Gray scored a try or set one up? Both Kruis and Itoje have had good workrates too - nice tackle counts.

I'm not trying to justify Gray over those two - I just think you are being overly harsh and completely simplifying performance criteria for the players.

They are all great locks who have difference facets to their game. Jonny Gray isn't used to disrupt lineout ball for Scotland because Richie is 3 inches taller. Does that make it a fair comparison between Jonny and Kruis?

Are turnovers really the leading stat when it comes to lock performance? Again this isn't downplaying Itoje but you are trotting out these stats yet it is far more complicated than that IMO.

Turnovers are no more the leading stat for lock performance than tackles made are. I think the point Beshocked is rightly making is that the all round game contributions from Kruis and Itoje are exceptional. They have performed so well that from now on barring injury Launchbury is going to be a bench bunny and Lawes won't get another look in.

BTW - many England selection threads which involve discussion of (or could involve discussion of) a saracen player end up going the same way as this one. Welcome to our world....

1. McGrath
2. Hartley
3. Cole
4. Itoje
5. Charteris
6. Robshaw
7. Warburton
8. Vunipola
9. Murray
10. Ford
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Taylor
14. Watson
15. Hogg

16. Guirado
17. Dickinson
18. Nel
19. J Gray
20. Heaslip
21. Davies
22. Sexton
23. Spedding

theslosty wrote:Eh? Could you point out any individual mistakes Sexton made against France?

Sexton put in several aimless kicks that simply handed possession away, got the crowd involved and towards the end gave France field position that they eventually scored from. It was clueless play (Murray wasn't much better).
JS also missed a number of tackles and missed touch with a penalty. Some of these mistakes were undoubtedly related to the treatment he received, and almost make it understandable (although not defensible) why he did his bit of playacting against Scotland.

Everybody reckons Guirado was the bees knees. In the England game when France finally brought their best form to town when they had a good chance of winning and Cheika was backing them at HT, every time they kicked a penalty for position Kruis/Itoje snaffled the throw.from Guirado 4times. 4 attacking platforms lost deep in enemy territory. So he's the skipper nobody to call a huddle and say "ne marche pas, n'est pas? "I don't get it. Lamentable as player and captain

I think Jonny G is about 120 tackles in a row over the last 2 comps - none missed

The Great Aukster wrote:

theslosty wrote:Eh? Could you point out any individual mistakes Sexton made against France?

Sexton put in several aimless kicks that simply handed possession away, got the crowd involved and towards the end gave France field position that they eventually scored from. It was clueless play (Murray wasn't much better).
JS also missed a number of tackles and missed touch with a penalty. Some of these mistakes were undoubtedly related to the treatment he received, and almost make it understandable (although not defensible) why he did his bit of playacting against Scotland.

I'm not sure about a lot of this. Sexton missed touch with a penalty versus England but I don't recall him doing it against France.
I remember thinking during the game that Sexton made some great tackles on his own line against French forwards twice his size.

Regards general play, Ireland had very little possession and when we did we (naively) ran it, but I blame the coaches for that more than Sexton.

Sexton was in poor form for Leinster but I think some people have lazily said that this has carried over to Ireland when in fact I thought he had a very good tournament.

beshocked wrote:RDW Scotland I think it depends on how much you think a player has influenced a match.

Personally I think Itoje and Kruis have done that more than J.Gray

Itoje's turnover rate has been ridiculously high for a lock - I think 7 in 3 and a bit games.

Given away some penalties but that's because he's aggressively attacked the breakdown. It's his slowing of the ball and unseen work which is so strong too.

Also both have more lineout steals than Gray - I think 6 for Kruis in 5 games, 4 for Itoje in 3 and a bit.

Has Gray scored a try or set one up? Kruis scored one vs Scotland by smashing through R.Gray, Itoje smashed through Baldwin and Biggar for a try assist vs Wales.


Both Kruis and Itoje have had good workrates too - nice tackle counts.

Ah, Beshocked.

Yes, I agree that there's an element of subjectivity here, but we also need to be clear eyed about a number of facts:
- Gray was the top tackler in the last 6 Nations
- Gray was in the top 2 tacklers in the last World Cup
- Gray calls the Glasgow and Scotland line outs
- I agree that leadership is key, which is why Gray being made captain of his professional franchise (Glasgow Warriors) at only 21 years of age is so impressive
- Gray started to play for Scotland U20s a couple of days after he turned 18.The only other forward who did that in recent memory was Joe Launchbury

Don't get me wrong. Itoje is a player to get very excited about, I have been watching him at club level for a while now and I'm really looking forward to seeing how he develops.

Is he without peer? No. Is he clearly stronger in aggregate than the other lock forwards (young or otherwise)? No. He works well with Kruis because their skillsets are complimentary.

Sorry to pour cold water on this a little but I'm a bit too long in the tooth to not step back a bit.

Is tackling the primary role of a lock? I think J.Gray is an excellent player but TJ asked why don't more people have J.Gray in their team. It's because there needs to be more to a player than just tackling.

You want to be on the front foot not the backfoot. If you're forced into making more tackles then surely something is going wrong in regards to the possession stats?

For such a big guy why is J.Gray not a better ball carrier?

Scotland in my opinion are too often on the backfoot because they lack big ball carriers. You look at the pack - where are they?

France and Ireland missed one of their big ball carriers and it really hurt them IMO - Picamoles and SOB respectively.

England were fortunate to have a fully fit Billy Vunipola. Could have been a different 6 nations for England if he didn't feature...

Scotland must find one.


George Carlin Itoje has captained England U20s, Saracens in the LV Cup and the full team too.

Itoje made more lineout steals and turnovers than J.Gray. Top tackler vs Ireland and Wales. MOTM award vs Wales. How many MOTM awards did J.Gray win in the 6 nations?

Both Gray and Itoje have their merits but I think Itoje is the more all round player - being better at stealing lineouts, disrupting, attacking the breakdown (much higher turnover count), better ball carrier.

The area Gray easily dominates is tackling, higher tackle count (albeit not by much) and no misses, better discipline too.

I guess it depends what you want - a literally defensive lock or an attacking lock.

Both have their strengths.

beshocked wrote:Is tackling the primary role of a lock? I think J.Gray is an excellent player but TJ asked why don't more people have J.Gray in their team. It's because there needs to be more to a player than just tackling.

You want to be on the front foot not the backfoot. If you're forced into making more tackles then surely something is going wrong in regards to the possession stats?

For such a big guy why is J.Gray not a better ball carrier?

Scotland in my opinion are too often on the backfoot because they lack big ball carriers. You look at the pack - where are they?

France and Ireland missed one of their big ball carriers and it really hurt them IMO - Picamoles and SOB respectively.

England were fortunate to have a fully fit Billy Vunipola. Could have been a different 6 nations for England if he didn't feature...

Scotland must find one.

You surely cannot regularly watch Jonny Gray if you have issues with his ball carrying - those that regular watch him know that his carrying is one of his biggest strengths.

There's no denying Scotland need bigger carriers in the back row though.

Three glorious words, Beshocked: Cornel du Preez - Scotland qualified this September.

I think that's the key point. Jonny Gray is a fine ball carrier but he's asked to do an awful lot of it. Cotter picking a featherweight like Ryan Wilson, who must weigh less that Vunipola's toe nails, is really unhelpful, particularly with Barclay at 6 (a fine player but not a robust ball carrier).

Du Preez becoming qualified will help. He's our answer to CJ Stander and I think he'll really help the balance of the pack. Cotter switching on the lightbulb in his head and dropping Wilson for one of Denton or Strauss will also help matters a great deal.

Still, I'd opt for Itoje/Kruis as my locks for team of the tournament. They are an outstanding combination and very nicely balanced. England have been on the look out for an "unsung hero" to take on Richard Hill's mantle for a long time, and albeit in a different position, I think Kruis may be that man (and like Hill, he's also "sung" quite a bit).

George Carlin wrote:Three glorious words, Beshocked: Cornel du Preez - Scotland qualified this September.

Shhhh, he'll have him at Sarries before we know it!

funnyExiledScot wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Three glorious words, Beshocked: Cornel du Preez - Scotland qualified this September.

Shhhh, he'll have him at Sarries before we know it!

At least Beshoked would rate a Scotland player then!

RDW Scotland I will concede of course I don't watch him as regularly as you Scottish fans but he's never struck me as a destructive ball carrier and those poor carrying stats don't support it either. It's not the primary job of a lock I guess but still...

Cornel Du Preez - looking at his stats seems a little lightweight but maybe I'll be proved wrong.

George Carlin I should respond with two words...: Nathan Hughes.....

Have to look abroad to find ball carriers don't we.....

RDW Scotland I currently don't rate Hamilton and he's at Sarries! Brown played well vs Leicester though.

beshocked wrote:Is tackling the primary role of a lock? I think J.Gray is an excellent player but TJ asked why don't more people have J.Gray in their team. It's because there needs to be more to a player than just tackling.

You want to be on the front foot not the backfoot. If you're forced into making more tackles then surely something is going wrong in regards to the possession stats?

For such a big guy why is J.Gray not a better ball carrier?

Scotland in my opinion are too often on the backfoot because they lack big ball carriers. You look at the pack - where are they?

France and Ireland missed one of their big ball carriers and it really hurt them IMO - Picamoles and SOB respectively.

England were fortunate to have a fully fit Billy Vunipola. Could have been a different 6 nations for England if he didn't feature...

Scotland must find one.


George Carlin Itoje has captained England U20s, Saracens in the LV Cup and the full team too.

Itoje made more lineout steals and turnovers than J.Gray. Top tackler vs Ireland and Wales. MOTM award vs Wales. How many MOTM awards did J.Gray win in the 6 nations?

Both Gray and Itoje have their merits but I think Itoje is the more all round player - being better at stealing lineouts, disrupting, attacking the breakdown (much higher turnover count), better ball carrier.

The area Gray easily dominates is tackling, higher tackle count (albeit not by much) and no misses, better discipline too.

I guess it depends what you want - a literally defensive lock or an attacking lock.

Both have their strengths.

Jonny Gray is an excellent ball carrier when he gets the ball to carry!

His downfall here is that he is a victim of his own success! He is so often the first or second man clearing out at the ruck which then rules him out of the next ball carrying duty. He is then often the first or second at the next ruck which rules him out again. He is the opposite of David Denton who stays away from the tackle area so he is free to get the ball to carry it! Different playing styles entirely!

To say Gray is not a good ball carrier as a result is just wrong I'm afraid!

Also, Jonny Gray may not get that many line out steals as he is often used as a lifter not a jumper!

I would say that Gray is right up there with the best all round lock players! The ground he covers, the rucks he clears out, the tackles he makes, the scrums he keeps solid, the mauls he disrupts, the lifting/jumping he does at the line out, not forgetting he is the line out caller for both club and country.

Jonny Gray is not flashy, he is good old fashion graft and effort and does what he does well and consistently.

I'm going to nail Bru's stones to the mast again (not seen him recently actually) and say that in 2021 or 2025, Jonny Gray will (barring injury) be the lions captain!

beshocked wrote:RDW Scotland I will concede of course I don't watch him as regularly as you Scottish fans but he's never struck me as a destructive ball carrier and those poor carrying stats don't support it either. It's not the primary job of a lock I guess but still...

Cornel Du Preez - looking at his stats seems a little lightweight but maybe I'll be proved wrong.

George Carlin I should respond with two words...: Nathan Hughes.....

Have to look abroad to find ball carriers don't we.....

RDW Scotland I currently don't rate Hamilton and he's at Sarries! Brown played well vs Leicester though.

Gray isn't in the destructive ball carrier mould in terms of making big barnstorming runs but he pretty much always gets over the gainline and gives excellent go forward - that's good enough for me when it comes to a lock, especially when you get the rest of the package that he gives you. I wouldn't class Kruis as a destructive ball carrier either - there aren't many locks you could class as that.

Du Preez is without doubt one of the most physical players ever to play for a Scottish pro side.  He's not huge in international terms but he's very uncompromising and physical.

We will see how he gets on for Scotland, but he's regularly a stand out in the Pro 12.

George Carlin wrote:Three glorious words, Beshocked: Cornel du Preez - Scotland qualified this September.

Nathan Hughes.

Nuff Zed...

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Three glorious words, Beshocked: Cornel du Preez - Scotland qualified this September.

Nathan Hughes.

Nuff Zed...

What's that got to do with Scotland?

Nothing. My mistake I thought it was the monster ball carriers about to be qualified for a 6N team thread.

tigertattie wrote:I'm going to nail Bru's stones to the mast again (not seen him recently actually) and say that in 2021 or 2025, Jonny Gray will (barring injury) be the lions captain!

Please don't.

BTW, I'm back! I've been quiet since the Italy match - just felt the need to take a break.

Anyone care to try and do the 'Poorest team of the tournament'?

bluestonevedder wrote:Anyone care to try and do the 'Poorest team of the tournament'?

Italy -

That was easy

bluestonevedder wrote:Anyone care to try and do the 'Poorest team of the tournament'?

I can help you there.

It's Italy with Ryan Wilson slotting into Parisse's berth and Duncan Weir *running* the back line.

At least Kelly Haimona can kick his goals.

---

lostinwales wrote:

George Carlin wrote:Three glorious words, Beshocked: Cornel du Preez - Scotland qualified this September.

Nathan Hughes.

Nuff Zed...

Well, if you're going to get all *Fijian* about it...

George Carlin wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Anyone care to try and do the 'Poorest team of the tournament'?

I can help you there.

It's Italy with Ryan Wilson slotting into Parisse's berth and Duncan Weir *running* the back line.

At least Kelly Haimona can kick his goals.

Selected and coached by Guy Noves

Just as a (slightly mischievous) revisit to the Gray / Itoje debate. This weekends club games saw Jonny with another game of no missed tackles but double figures made, Itoje missed one that cost a try ;-)

You guys that don't know how good he is need to watch him playing for Glasgow

Itoje will play 6 for the lions. It's obvious: that will become his best position. He'll probably become a world class 6, captain his country and the Lions in 2021.

Worst team of the trounament...

1. Castro
2. Hartley
3. White
4. Toner
5. Furno
6. Camara
7. O Donnell
8. Wilson
9. Palazzani
10. Ford/Haimona
11. Cuthbert
12. Scott
13. Fofana
14. Fickou
15. Mclean

Just off the top of my head, harsh on some (Hartley/Fofana etc) but well deserved for others (Cuthbert/Wilson)

O'Donnell was pretty good.

Notch wrote:O'Donnell was pretty good.

It's a bit harsh on him, he was ok, but in a tournament where Warburton, Hardie, Zanni, Haskell etc all did their jobs (not a lot more mind), O donnell missed a few key tackles, one led to a try didn't it.

Someone had to get picked, he was probably the openside propping up the table, that said if Tipuric had played more he'd have given him a good challenge.

I agree with the Itoje at 6 call. His combination of size and athleticism is very rare and would be best suited to the blindside I think.