Eddie's England squad for summer

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

Agree with that 100% Poorfour.

Cyril wrote:Re. Billy V, I think it's been great that he's shown he can do full 80s (has he played every minute of the last 10 6Ns games?) but it will be good to see who can challenge him at 8. We've really relied on him just recently and have been a bit lucky he's stayed the course. It'll be interesting how the back row dynamic might shift if he's not starting. It may well be a bit of a different structure if it's not a like-for-like replacement. That would be a good thing I think, but obviously it means other carriers have to step up.

RWC he got injured and.....

lostinwales wrote:

Cyril wrote:Re. Billy V, I think it's been great that he's shown he can do full 80s (has he played every minute of the last 10 6Ns games?) but it will be good to see who can challenge him at 8. We've really relied on him just recently and have been a bit lucky he's stayed the course. It'll be interesting how the back row dynamic might shift if he's not starting. It may well be a bit of a different structure if it's not a like-for-like replacement. That would be a good thing I think, but obviously it means other carriers have to step up.

RWC he got injured and.....

Indeed. I meant to mention that. Compare and contrast 6 Nations (15 and 16) and RWC. The good thing is, I think Eddie won't have us relying on one player or system. It's be nice when Hughes is qualified though... Potentially some nice options at 6/8 to compete with the likes of SA.

Ewers, Hughes, Billy, Morgan - potentially 4 MASSIVE carriers to work with.

I still think on top form Ben Morgan is real force. We just need to see it consistently.

I'm not sure I'd stick Ewers in with that bunch GF, I think he's quite ineffectual given the size of the lad.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I still think on top form Ben Morgan is real force. We just need to see it consistently.

Yep, his good moments are a bit too sporadic. I do watch that break he did against France to set up Foden in the 6Ns (2012?) quite often though!

He did have some good moments off the back of the scrum in the first couple of tests agains NZ in 2014 (also defensively good) and his displays in that autumn were excellent (England player of the series?), but I do wonder whether injury and poor form will continue to dog him.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not sure I'd stick Ewers in with that bunch GF, I think he's quite ineffectual given the size of the lad.

Im not sure, I think he is a big carrier. Maybe not as explosive as the others, but they are exceptional. I think it'll be interesting to see him in Oz though.

Cyril wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I still think on top form Ben Morgan is real force. We just need to see it consistently.

Yep, his good moments are a bit too sporadic. I do watch that break he did against France to set up Foden in the 6Ns (2012?) quite often though!

He did have some good moments off the back of the scrum in the first couple of tests agains NZ in 2014 (also defensively good) and his displays in that autumn were excellent (England player of the series?), but I do wonder whether injury and poor form will continue to dog him.

yeah that's the thing. Also he seems to have this continuous battle with his weight and just generally being fit.

Not just Morgan (there are plenty of others) but it's really annoying when you've got a player with such good attributes who just get broken easily, have a poor metabolism/eat pies, have a poor work ethic or are just plain unlucky. I'm not saying the poor work ethic thing necessarily applies to Morgan, but Billy (and Mako) admitted to liking his food a bit too much and really worked on fitness and the right kind of weight.

That's sport though. There are some players who just sail through their careers and are really durable (McCaw didn't seem to get injured much). Of course there are obvious links between not carrying too much weight and having the right attitude and not getting injured.

Billy V is head and shoulders above the other candidates as a ball carrier IMO

TJ wrote:Billy V is head and shoulders above the other candidates as a ball carrier IMO

Without question....until June 27th

Work rate must count against Morgan as well. He isn't just a one trick pony but tends to be quiet for big parts of a game only to explode when the chance arises. And he really does/did explode.

Billy just keeps running all day.

"Billy V is head and shoulders above the other candidates as a ball carrier IMO" possibly, but there is more to the game than just carrying. Hughes for instance offers a real lineout option, which Billy and Morgan struggle to do. I am not knocking Billy, he has been immense in the World Cup and 6 Nations, but he needs to keep developing his all round game.

I think in Billy and Hughes, we do potentially have 2 world class players, plus Jack Clifford has great potential there. A nice problem to have.

nlpnlp wrote:I am not knocking Billy, he has been immense in the World Cup and 6 Nations, but he needs to keep developing his all round game.

I agree that he needs to keeping working and developing (still very young). He's not going to be a Reid (who is, though Faletau is a very good all-rounder) but he does have some good skills. He's been asked to a do specific job recently (carry) but he does have a decent offload and often was high in the tackle stats before this 6Ns. Where we needs to improve is control at the base of the scrum. He often gets away with this through sheer power but it's nervy for the fans. I do blame Care or Youngs with this too as we're sometimes a bit naiveand faff around in this area. From Billy, this should improve over time. Hughes is excellent at this albeit at club level.

Jonny May is out for the season so won't be back for the summer tour unfortunately.

I agree with those on the previous page that I definitely think Jones will recall him once fit though, hopefully for the 2016 AIs.

He's just the sort of player that Jones will like given his express pace, power and good basic skills. He just needs to back himself at international level and get more involved. Given how the new staff have encouraged Nowell to play I think that should suit May though.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:Players to be rested;

Marler, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Billy Vunipola, Haskell, Ben Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Angry.

Perhaps also Hartley on concussion grounds, we'll have to see how he recovers, plus there will other injuries to take into account; Tom Youngs, maybe May, maybe Morgan and others.

Now undoubtedly not selecting this many players, especially in the forwards, will leave us lacking in experience. However we do have depth to chose from and the opportunity will be fantastic for the selected players as well as for EJ to see various newbies up close. Added to this obviously the rested players will return fresh and extra keen to reprove their selections. Win, win, win!

Can you individually list who you would replace them with? And you've listed the problem, the experience you would be losing for a 3 game tour of the World Cup finalists is quite substantial just from those few players.

PS whos angry?

Of course Angry refers to the Mike Brown, our prince of fullbacks.....back in the day, oh yer way back when, fb was my position and i have to say I love the way he plays the game. I've always thought he's gives the impression of being quite a limited player but wow don't be fooled. Its as if he's playing to a different beat able to fix players and at the same time go passed them. Just wish he had the vision thing to be able to release the scoring pass.....

With regards listing alternatives, yes good question and was something I thought about....so I'll give it a go;  

Marler as stated. I'd take Mako Vunipola plus the two Wasps LH's McIntyre & Mullan

Cole; Brookes, Hill & Sinckler

Hartley; This is where we struggle as I'm unsure if George will be fit (?) and the more I read and think about it, it looks like Hartley should be rested and of course Youngs is out. This leaves the door ajar for the likes of LCD, Sale's Taylor and even Ward or the lad from saints whose name escapes me???

Launchbury & Laws; Of course all being well we'll take the incumbent newbies Itoje and Kruis, plus I'd like the 2 from Leicester to be given some daylight; Kitchener and Slater (don't think big Dom's there yet) assuming they're both fit.

Robshaw & Haskell;  Clifford & Kvesic (I don't rate Ewers) and Slater or Itoje can could play 6

Billy Vunipola; I'm really hoping Morgan will regain form and fitness (body and soul) otherwise we'll have to wangle Hughes some how or try Tuilagi from the back of the scrum.....i'm joking ok.  Seriously I would have suggested Beaumont but he's out for the season I understand which is a real shame for him as he's actually something different.

Ben Youngs; again the 2 Wasps sh's, Robson and assuming Simpson is fit as he'll be awesome on a flat track

Ford & Farrell; (real tough call on Farrell but I'm assuming Wasps will beat Sorries twice in the Champions and Premier finals so he'll be knackered by then), of course CIPRIANI and a big call here for the experience I'd take Wasps Lozowski who ironically has signed for Sarasens. Obviously I think he has the juice. And again of course Slade can play 10 but lets not forget that Burns has been showing form at Leicester.

And finally back where we began with Angry; Goode will go though he will never be my first choice and that's just out of spite! I would of course take Wade and to everyone's chagrin move Watson back to fb, or perhaps Slade could go there as could Lozowski or CIPRIANI

We do have depth and much of it is very exciting. EJ will certainly make them better players as will the fantastic experience.

Finally, I really do hope however that George regains his fitness as he deserves this chance.

Just not sure Jones will make widespread changes to the team as it could end up being more barbarians and not really showing much. Clifford will surely get starts, a new 8, full back and maybe that Tuilagi and Slade combo.

Some names that have been mentioned and some that haven't

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/03/31/the-10-players-who-could-gatecrash-englands-australia-tour/will-addison/

Does any one seriously think that Cipriani will be on the summer tour?

I mean if they are taking Farrell, Ford, and possibly Slade. will their be any room for him?

majesticimperialman wrote:Does any one seriously think that Cipriani will be on the summer tour?

I mean if they are taking Farrell, Ford, and possibly Slade. will their be any room for him?

If Cipriani outplays Ford in each of their games then questions will need to be answered.

Kvesic performance yesterday was perhaps a microcosm of his season and emphasised why he has not been looked at by Jones.

He topped the tackle count, was constantly a pest at the breakdown. However he conceded more penalties there (3) than turnovers (1). By comparison young Evans and O'connor - playing about 100 minutes combined secured a couple of turnovers each with just one breakdown penalty.

Kvesic is a better player than O'Connor and Evans, I doubt many would argue with that.

I do agree he does lack something that is required to make that step up. I don't think he's particularly physical and his actual technique at the breakdown isn't the greatest.

You can see why Underhill is being touted as he seems to have both these attributes at the tender age of 19.

How about that Harrison guy from Saints? He seems to have very good technique at the breakdown, is very physical and scores a few tries. Didn't he learn a lot of his rugby in NZ too?

Could be a very good option over Underhill.

Agree Yappy, I think he has more potential than Kvesic. He's been putting some great performances in for Saints, regularly outplaying Woods. I wonder where he is on the radar?

I was just think in about back up to Billy V at 8. I know it is a long shot but what about Thomas the Tank Engine Waldrom? or is he like a lot of the others that once played for England, no chance now?

majesticimperialman wrote:I was just think in about back up to Billy V at 8. I know it is a long shot but what about Thomas the Tank Engine Waldrom? or is he like a lot of  the others that once played for England, no chance now?

Beaumont, Morgan and then potentially Hughes I imagine.

majesticimperialman wrote:I was just think in about back up to Billy V at 8. I know it is a long shot but what about Thomas the Tank Engine Waldrom? or is he like a lot of  the others that once played for England, no chance now?

Waldrom has the best try scoring rate of the lot - by some margin. But I believe that there is a feeling that he doesn't offer anything else. Billy can if needed.

I think Waldom's time is done as an international

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Kvesic is a better player than O'Connor and Evans, I doubt many would argue with that.

More would argue the case for BOC, especially Auckland fans, but really your comment proves my point. For as long as tge penalty count by Kvesic exceeds his turnovers he will struggle to impress Jones, especially when in that area he is outshone by players deemed average.

Not yet seen Underhill play so unable to comment.

As to Teimana Harrison, I feel I have seen him outmuscled too often for my liking.

I agree on your point that Kvesic probably isn't good enough. I doubt many Auckland fans have seen or even heard of Kvesic tbh.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree on your point that Kvesic probably isn't good enough. I doubt many Auckland fans have seen or even heard of Kvesic tbh.

How many Kiwi fans would ever rate an English player higher than their own.


Mind we could say the same about any fans, we are all biased towards the guys we see day in day out be we Tigers, Sarries or Falcons.

I know I'm banging on about it but unless the selected players weren't a part of the WC squad or have now recovered from a period of prolonged injury, or perhaps are new to international rugby, then by and large they will be exhausted and prone to injury.

Furthermore given the fact that the jeff final is the 28th and the Wales game the next day and lets assume EJ selects a large 40/45 player squad including all available senior players, then realistically match day selections will have to be a compromise. In which case why not rest the senior guys and use the games to try out new options?

EJ is a very good coach but how best to progress the talent pool without significantly degrading its longer term playing ability is a real dilemma.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree on your point that Kvesic probably isn't good enough. I doubt many Auckland fans have seen or even heard of Kvesic tbh.

How many Kiwi fans would ever rate an English player higher than their own.


Mind we could say the same about any fans, we are all biased towards the guys we see day in day out be we Tigers, Sarries or Falcons.

I was with you till you said Falcons....

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Kvesic is a better player than O'Connor and Evans, I doubt many would argue with that.

More would argue the case for BOC, especially Auckland fans, but really your comment proves my point. For as long as tge penalty count by Kvesic exceeds his turnovers he will struggle to impress Jones, especially when in that area he is outshone by players deemed average.

Not yet seen Underhill play so unable to comment.

As to Teimana Harrison, I feel I have seen him outmuscled too often for my liking.

Funny because I thought physicality was one of his prime assets. Interesting how views can be so different.

lostinwales wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:I was just think in about back up to Billy V at 8. I know it is a long shot but what about Thomas the Tank Engine Waldrom? or is he like a lot of  the others that once played for England, no chance now?

Waldrom has the best try scoring rate of the lot - by some margin. But I believe that there is a feeling that he doesn't offer anything else. Billy can if needed.

I think Waldom's time is done as an international

Id probably agree. If it were the six nations por another comeptitive tournament I could see him coming in as s ticking platers were Billy/Morgan injured .. but its a waste of a spot to pick someone for the short term. He never nailed down a spot when he was in prime, and is now 32. It would be very short termist to select him unless theres a real crisis in back row avaialibility (which could happen with the pointless cash cow Wales game)

Waldrom must be done by now, but I thought the same about Nick Easter.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Waldrom must be done by now, but I thought the same about Nick Easter.

That was a bit different, Easter was dropped for political points scoring and to appease the media.
He was replaced with Phil f'ing Dowson whos biggest contribution to English rugby was getting kicked in the head.

Thought he was classed as too old.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I agree on your point that Kvesic probably isn't good enough. I doubt many Auckland fans have seen or even heard of Kvesic tbh.

How many Kiwi fans would ever rate an English player higher than their own.


Mind we could say the same about any fans, we are all biased towards the guys we see day in day out be we Tigers, Sarries or Falcons.

Nonsence, we all agree the Falcons have the best players...that's why they all keep getting poached

kingelderfield wrote:

Marler as stated. I'd take Mako Vunipola plus the two Wasps LH's McIntyre & Mullan

Im pretty sure he's a TH.

Anyone sense a sea change in the way Alex Goode is viewed? He's been playing out of his skin lately for Saracens. If he was ever to do that for England...

Always been a quality player but never really suited the way we've played. For a while it's seemed like Watson has been marked as the next full back and having Goode and Nowell in the back 3 is worse than Brown and Nowell for speed. Is he good enough in the air, the Ireland match from a few years ago he was great, last year poor.

Rugby fan Alex Goode has been very consistent for Saracens in the last few years now. His ability at 15 at club level surely isn't in doubt. His lack of pace has been his downfall at international level.

I just hope that Alex Goode can bring his club form to international level.


no 7 & 1/2 it's strange because Goode has generally been good in the air for Saracens.

Goode could well move to 10 still in my opinion, he's a very good goal kicker - better than Cipriani and Ford IMO, certainly at club level anyhow.

He has a much superior brain and vision compared to OF.

Sadly the last time we saw Nowell and Goode in the back three together was not a good time for England....

Road Runner would be a better fit for Goode because he has the pace, Goode lacks. Goode would of course bring the vision that Road Runner and Brown lack.

Some want Watson at 15 but surely he should stay at 14, if it ain't broke don't fix it.

It is strange but he's never looked as convincing for England. Maybe he'd just need a run of 3 or 4 games and get some confidence. He does look like a 10 who's been put in that utility category never to quite achieve what he should have.

Road runner?

I think Watson at 15, with May and Nowell looks well balanced, if Daly or Slade are involved in the midfield as well.

Watson looks like the next FB elect.

The new Serge Blanco

Goode still has a lot of convincing to do at international level. Just like Road Runner.

Well balanced? Don't think it is but then again as you know I don't rate Road Runner very highly at all.

beshocked wrote:Goode could well move to 10 still in my opinion, he's a very good goal kicker - better than Cipriani and Ford IMO, certainly at club level anyhow.

He has a much superior brain and vision compared to OF.

I could see him being a very good 10 with a dominant pack in front of him, and I'm not entirely against trying him at 15.

Ah you mean May! Who would you look to be developing. You wanted 3 deep in every position?

Goode tried and failed at 10 a few years back.

Kruis in danger of missing the tour.