Eddie's England squad for summer

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

LondonTiger wrote:Kruis in danger of missing the tour.

I hope not.

It does sound bad biting some one. But if they had their fingers in your eyes, What would you do?

If Eddie stays true to his aim of getting England to have a world beating scrum then Mako has to go. I like him as a player but his poor scrummaging is a real weakness and its not like hes not had enough time to work on it. Bath's Thomas absolutely smashed him last week. Mako's only answer was to flop on the floor at every scrum. He was well and truly found out.

May is very flaky under the high ball. He always looks completely bewildered when a high ball comes his way. He must sort that weakness out if he wants to oust Nowell. Nowell can do most things although none of his skills are really exceptional.

Brown is still the man holding the 15 shirt but he needs to be more aware of support runners when he has the ball in a bit of space. Not seeing the 2 on 1, that's pretty much his only weakness. Although Goode is looking really sharp and wouldn't let England down.

Farrell has to get the 10 shirt. He is firing on all cylinders at the moment and is clearly better and more confident than Ford.

Manu is enjoying himself again and hungry to get in the squad. If all goes well over the next few games for Tigers he will almost certainly have a strong claim for the 12 shirt.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

kingelderfield wrote:

Marler as stated. I'd take Mako Vunipola plus the two Wasps LH's McIntyre & Mullan

Im pretty sure he's a TH.

He was, but he's now moved across.

englandglory4ever wrote: Bath's Thomas absolutely smashed him last week. Mako's only answer was to flop on the floor at every scrum. He was well and truly found out.
.

Thomas is in rampant form at the moment though (from what ive seen anyway) .He's got the bit between his teeth.
If he maintains that form Id be taking him to Oz.

LondonTiger wrote:Kruis in danger of missing the tour.

Why?

GeordieFalcon wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Kruis in danger of missing the tour.

Why?

got peckish at the wrong time
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35963050

Remember what happened to Hartley when he was being fish hooked.

By those standards, Wilson will get a medal for not poking his eye out and Kruis will get 8 weeks for reminding Wilson that his mouth is not a fit place to stick his finger.

Anyone got footage of the Kruis biting incident?

no 7 & 1/2 depends on who is the best wingers at the time. Woodburn seems to be enjoying himself at Exeter. Could be a bolter. Maybe James Short. Maybe even Ashton if he can keep himself fit and not get banned. Of course Wade,Yarde, Rokodiguini even Banahan who I think has been good for Bath this season.

Surprised at that considering there's a few there older than 26. Bit of dearth at wing and full back at present compared to some other positions. Shows it's not that easy to build that sort of depth with quality though.

Has anyone seen much of Earle this season at Sarries? The lad looked a superstar before getting injured.

no 7 & 1/2 England are still far from world beaters. England cannot rest on their laurels after getting the GS.

At FB and wing IMO there are no contenders putting in big enough performances to supplant the incumbents at the moment.

With the business end coming up, it will become clearer who should be given the nod.

Even Foden has a shot - Goode vs Foden will be interesting this weekend.

Rob Miller is a potential option too if he continues to help Wasps.

Agreed to a point, they need to strive to improve but there's not much choice there, no one banging on the door really. Just interested in your point of view on who needs to be given that chance from your previous comments.

Foden has been pretty poor and he's living on reputation alone if people are mentioning him for England.

Same with Goode to a point, he's just not good enough.

Brown, Watson, Nowell are options. Pennell at a push, possibly Daly.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Has anyone seen much of Earle this season at Sarries? The lad looked a superstar before getting injured.

I have never been especially impressed by Earle. He had the pace and size to be good at age group levels, but for me always seemed to lack the rugby nous and basic skills to then convert that to adult success. Rumours he may be joining us does not fill me with joy or expectation.

LondonTiger wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Has anyone seen much of Earle this season at Sarries? The lad looked a superstar before getting injured.

I have never been especially impressed by Earle. He had the pace and size to be good at age group levels, but for me always seemed to lack the rugby nous and basic skills to then convert that to adult success. Rumours he may be joining us does not fill me with joy or expectation.

Well he was good enough to be nominated for Junior World Player of the year.....

He reminds me very much of Watson at that age grade but better. I didn't think he lacked rugby nous in the slightest. If they can teach Tuilagi to pass, anything is possible imo.

Whatever happened to Kibirige? Had that leg break and tbh forgot a bit about him.

Just an opinion, but being nominated for JWP does not invalidate my opinion that he is a player who would thrive in age grade rugby but struggle to convert that to senior level.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Foden has been pretty poor and he's living on reputation alone if people are mentioning him for England.

Same with Goode to a point, he's just not good enough.

Brown, Watson, Nowell are options. Pennell at a push, possibly Daly.

Id argue its quite the opposite with Goode.

Foden is trading off his reputation of being pretty brilliant a long time ago, Goode is suffering from being pretty rubbish fairly recently.
Goodes real issue is that he lacks the pace to be a running threat at full back. Its less of an issue if he'd stayed as a fly half/ 12 but he is nothing more than a fill in at club level in those positions now.

Brown is absolutely first choice fullback still and a senior core member of the side.

There is absolutely room for someone from outside the current back 3 to tour as a speacialist full back, and I believe its a pretty key opportunity to find someone there to be the cover role. Elliot Daly is seen as a potential full back, certainly as a bench cover one. Id still like to see an out and out specilist sent on the tour as well.

Someone earlier said theres a lack of wings ... really? Maybe a lack of wings with experience if you discount May and Ashton. Then you have to go down to the likes of Wade and Rokoduguni (8 tries for a rubbish side this year) who have been on the edge of squads for some time. Id say 6 senior wingers is enough of a pool to pick from, even if one were to move to full back. Maybe England are short on completely new wing options, but I dont see that as an issue. Its not like these guys are all 32...its actually quite refreshing to see them not as flash in the pan overhyped one good season types.

The ridiculous Wales game will give some fringe players and real left field picks a cap. There are opportunities for players even if England are fairly conservative in the squad they take out to Aus with them.

A proper Saxons tour focussed on the next generation as well. long term development and widening of the senior playing pool should occur.

Earle has not featured much this season, don't know whether it's a lack of ability or injuries.

With Ashton banned, there was an opportunity there for Earle to stake a claim. Ellery in my opinion hasn't particularly impressed either.

Londontiger you should be heartened that some ex Saracens academy players like Seymour,Short and Auterac have managed to succeed on their departure. Maybe a change in scenery would do Earle some good. Could certainly see him replacing Thompstone.

Gooseberry yes there is depth at wing just not strength IMO.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Whatever happened to Kibirige? Had that leg break and tbh forgot a bit about him.

He's being eased back in. Watson has looked very good this season if perhaps not Int class. He gave Wade a torrid time last week, doing him for pace a few times.

LondonTiger wrote:Just an opinion, but being nominated for JWP does not invalidate my opinion that he is a player who would thrive in age grade rugby but struggle to convert that to senior level.

Perhaps not, but it goes a fair way to suggesting your opinion is misguided. U20 level rugby is of a high standard these days, when somebody stands out they tend to go on to bigger and better things.

Gooseberry wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Foden has been pretty poor and he's living on reputation alone if people are mentioning him for England.

Same with Goode to a point, he's just not good enough.

Brown, Watson, Nowell are options. Pennell at a push, possibly Daly.

Id argue its quite the opposite with Goode.

Foden is trading off his reputation of being pretty brilliant a long time ago, Goode is suffering from being pretty rubbish fairly recently.
Goodes real issue is that he lacks the pace to be a running threat at full back. Its less of an issue if he'd stayed as a fly half/ 12 but he is nothing more than a fill in at club level in those positions now.

Brown is absolutely first choice fullback still and a senior core member of the side.

There is absolutely room for someone from outside the current back 3 to tour as a speacialist full back, and I believe its a pretty key opportunity to find someone there to be the cover role. Elliot Daly is seen as a potential full back, certainly as a bench cover one. Id still like to see an out and out specilist sent on the tour as well.

Someone earlier said theres a lack of wings ... really? Maybe a lack of wings with experience if you discount May and Ashton. Then you have to go down to the likes of Wade and Rokoduguni (8 tries for a rubbish side this year) who have been on the edge of squads for some time. Id say 6 senior wingers is enough of a pool to pick from, even if one were to move to full back. Maybe England are short on completely new wing options, but I dont see that as an issue. Its not like these guys are all 32...its actually quite refreshing to see them not as flash in the pan overhyped one good season types.

The ridiculous Wales game will give some fringe players and real left field picks a cap. There are opportunities for players even if England are fairly conservative in the squad they take out to Aus with them.

A proper Saxons tour focussed on the next generation as well. long term development and widening of the senior playing pool should occur.

I think there's a shortage of guys really pushing for the squad. Rokoduguni and Wade haven't really captured their previous form this year. Maybe Ashton is the guy pushing the most and I'm too optimistic given his run of form for England.

beshocked wrote:Earle has not featured much this season, don't know whether it's a lack of ability or injuries.

With Ashton banned, there was an opportunity there for Earle to stake a claim. Ellery in my opinion hasn't particularly impressed either.

Londontiger you should be heartened that some ex Saracens academy players like Seymour,Short and Auterac have managed to succeed on their departure. Maybe a change in scenery would do Earle some good. Could certainly see him replacing Thompstone.

Gooseberry yes there is depth at wing just not strength IMO.

Ha, wondered why Short was mentioned earlier!

beshocked wrote:Earle has not featured much this season, don't know whether it's a lack of ability or injuries.

With Ashton banned, there was an opportunity there for Earle to stake a claim. Ellery in my opinion hasn't particularly impressed either.

Londontiger you should be heartened that some ex Saracens academy players like Seymour,Short and Auterac have managed to succeed on their departure. Maybe a change in scenery would do Earle some good. Could certainly see him replacing Thompstone.

Gooseberry yes there is depth at wing just not strength IMO.

Well thats where id disgree. In a set up that wants at leat one to be an out and out try scorer we have 3 very good options in Watson, Ashton and Roko.
If the other is a little more pragmatic then both Nowell and May (yeah I know yous till blame him for breaking his own nose that one time) have the basic full back skillset (as does Watson) or Wade has a bit more creativity about him.
The Premiership has been short on EQ wingers banging out huge numbers of tries this season true, but I think its fairly recognised that Ashton is back in the groove, and Roko has a good tries to game ratio in a failing side. Watson is a proven class performer who has excelled in the role so far, I think we would have a hard time sustaining the argument he isnt quality now.
Peoples opionions differ on May and Nowell of course. Im persoannly a May fan boy and traditionaly was a Nowell sceptic .. but I do like his solidity and beefiness amongst what is otherwise a bit of a powder puff bunch of outside backs.

We know England have depth, it's players that push themselves above the rest that England IMO have struggled with.

The GS win was mostly about a good team performance, very few outstanding performers. England still need to work on increasing player quality and performances.

Sgt Pooly to a point yes but there's plenty of U20s who haven't made it.

That's what has impressed me about Kruis - he was an U20s bench player, not one of the names that immediately stood out as a England international prospect.

Gooseberry Roko is unproven at international level, with Ashton still unsure whether he'll play like he did under Johnson or under Lancaster or in between.

Still believe Lancaster didn't fully utilise Ashton's strengths.

May in my opinion still has a lot of proving to do, as do Yarde, Wade and Ashton still has to answer his critics too.

Watson and Nowell deservedly the starters but as of now.

no 7 & 1/2 Short has been doing well for Exeter and he's just one of the numerous wingers mentioned.

Pretty sure that not so long ago London Irish were being derided by a certain poster for selecting "a championship standard" winger like Short.

Not always, there have been quite a few who don't fit what ever reason, it can often be because of something other then rugby too.

Yeah, a list which doesn't fill me with much joy. Can't really see Woodburn, Short, Rokoduguni or Banahan as good enough.

As to Nathan Earle - he got injured in the first week of the 14/15 season playing for Bedford and missed the rest of te season. This season he was loaned out to London Scottish playing four matches (3of which in B&I cup), then recalled to Sarries during the 6Ns, appearing on the bench four times but playing just 8 minutes.

Londontiger really? Don't remember saying that. Short did struggle for LI admittedly but he's rebuilt his career at Exeter.

I will always be a fan of Short for his classy finish against Leicester in the AP final.

Excellent 7s player too.

Earle has time on his side, he's a real prospect.

So the Saxons are touring SA this year, 2 tests against SA 'A'.

Who would be the captain? I would be tempted to give it jointly to an old head, like Tom Wood and a young prospect who won't tour Australia with the seniors but is too old to play for the U20s.

If we are talking about players who are decent but never likely to be world class/genuinely make a difference at test level....then wouldnt Short be pretty much top of the list?

little_badger wrote:So the Saxons are touring SA this year, 2 tests against SA 'A'.

Who would be the captain? I would be tempted to give it jointly to an old head, like Tom Wood and a young prospect who won't tour Australia with the seniors but is too old to play for the U20s.

I don't see the point in Wood being in the Saxons. Saxons should be for blooding players that have the potential to make the step up to the senior squad, not for accommodating players that didn't make the cut.

mid_gen wrote:

little_badger wrote:So the Saxons are touring SA this year, 2 tests against SA 'A'.

Who would be the captain? I would be tempted to give it jointly to an old head, like Tom Wood and a young prospect who won't tour Australia with the seniors but is too old to play for the U20s.

I don't see the point in Wood being in the Saxons. Saxons should be for blooding players that have the potential to make the step up to the senior squad, not for accommodating players that didn't make the cut.

Though it could be argued that with the best kids at the JWC, and an extended squad to Australia, a Saxons squad would need some experience around the next set of potentials. Otherwise you end up with a group that contains far too many mid-aged journeymen.

You would think players like Tom Youngs, David Wilson, Geoff Parling, Tom Wood, Tom Waldrom, Lee Dickson, Danny Cipriani and Luther Burrell would relish a chance to run out for England Saxons and show the current management what they're missing. And if they go and lead a squad of 20-24 year olds to a series victory in South Africa, you might have a couple of stand-out performances from the disposed guys to consider, but also a next generation of players that have experience winning tests and even a series in the Southern Hemisphere. Younger players can learn a lot from touring with these guys, and we shouldn't discount them.

With guys potentially being rested for the summer tour and the JWC this Saxons side could be pretty diluted.

Especially in the tight 5 where summer touring parties often end up taking extra bodies as cover. The likes of Waller snr, Henry Thomas, Tommy Taylor and Slater who Jones didn't pick in his original EPS may well travel. That's before injury as well.

1.Waller, Auterac, McIntyre
2.Taylor, Haywood
3.Thomas, Cooper-Wooley, Sinckler
4.Slater, Barrow, Lees
5.Kitchener, Robinson, Symons
6.M Wilson, Wood/Croft?
7.Fraser, Wallace (Harrison/O'Connor/Underhill?)
8.Morgan

9.Robson, Simpson, Chudley/Spencer/Cooke/Harrison?
10.Cipriani, Burns

11.Roko, Lewington
12.Hill, Devoto
13.Burrell, Lowe?
14.Wade, Addison
15.Pennell, Hammersley

Very roughly throwing a squad together from performances this season there. Wood or Croft would divide opinion but both have showed decent form if nowhere near their best. I wouldn't pick either personally as I can't see them playing for England again.

Slater at least from that will probably tour. Tommy Taylor and Alex Waller/Henry Thomas have a good chance too I'd wager.

If Roko or Wade tour then there are some good wingers showing form this season - Adam Thompstone, Charlie Walker and Marcus Watson would be next choices for me.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Goode tried and failed at 10 a few years back.

For England? Wasn't aware of that.

Looking at the Saxons' squad, I suprised myself by thinking about the centre position and having too many potential options (I think I might need a lie down). We've got a glut of very promising young guys coming through at inside centre, surely through the law of averages one of them MUST come in and make an impact at some point?

Sam James (Sale), Tom Stephenson & Harry Mallinder (Both Northampton), Ollie Devoto (Bath), Sam Hill and Henry Slade (Exeter), Harry Sloan (Harlequins).

A mix of those you name will surely come through, Cumbrian.

I haven't put Sam James or Harry Mallinder in that 'Saxons squad' as I presume they will be with the JWC - I hope they are anyway.

Slade is a terrific player who will be involved in the summer tour and probably start at least one test. Jones has already stated that he'd have started at 12 if not for injury. He's also been very clear that Farrell played 12 as he doesn't feel the options below Slade and Manu are good enough.

Sloan may struggle to get a look in. He's a very solid 12 but doesn't have the all round skills or game breaking ability of the others you list. Sam Hill may well fall into a similar category, though he is so reliable I expect he will be around the Saxons (and EPS as injury cover) for a fair while.

The other name to add to those you list is Nick Tompkins from Sarries. He looks a real prospect at 13, especially if he can get a starting berth behind that pack

Either Stephenson or Tompkins could be interesting names the Saxons could take a punt on for the summer.

So this is the dates for everything in the summer:

Means a lot of Englands much vaunted squad depth will get investigated for actual quality.

Prem Semi Finals:
Weekend - 20th May
Weekend - 20th May

Final:
Saturday 28th May

England v Wales
Sunday 29th May

Oz Tour:
Saturday 11 June, Suncorp Stadium, Brisbane
Saturday 18 June, AAMI Park, Melbourne
Saturday 25 June, Allianz Stadium, Sydney

Saxons - SA Tour
Friday June 10th, Free State Stadium, Bloemfontein
Friday June 17th, Outeniqua Park, George

U20 World Cup - England
June 7th - June 25th

Hoonercat wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Goode tried and failed at 10 a few years back.

For England? Wasn't aware of that.

I assume he means at Saracens where he was given a season as a specialist 10. (May have played at 10 for Saxons mind?)
It was Andy Goode who played for England around that time. Not to be confused with Alexs dad, Andy Goode.

Im not sure failed is strictly fair ... Saracans had all manner of options at 10 around that time with players like Hodgson, Houghaard and then that Welsh chap coming through the squad. Then there was the emergnce of Farrell junior.

Fullback less of a strength, so it was fairly ineviatble thats where his opportunities would come and where hes ended up.

So, with the Senior tour, the Saxons and an U20s WC there shouldn't be too many prospects left behind without some international exposure.

I am looking forward to seeing Wade given another chance......most likely for Saxons
LCD has another shot at the senior table too, especially if George doesn't recover in time.
Taylor could be a long shot for the seniors but Saxons as a minimum.
Kvesic may get a shot if Robshaw and Haskell are rested.
Millar of Wasps looked in good form and should be given a Saxons pop too.

I cant see many being rested PropD. Robshaw for example might only play 1.5 games with Clifford playing the other 1.5 etc.

But I think he'll take his strongest squad, then there'll be a decent squad for the Saxons...but good youngsters like Malinder etc should be at the JWC to try to win that aswel.

Interesting the Ali Hepher is on board for the Saxons tour, everyone agrees he is an excellent coach and has been important for Exeter's swift rise.

I do think some 'old' heads will want to go with the Saxons to show they are still hungry, for example I would say Waldrom would be a good pick for the Saxons. If you pair him with two young flankers he provides the experience.

Ideally I'd like to see a split of 1/3 old heads and 2/3 prospects or fringe players.

So taking the table as it is...
Saries
Exeter
Wasps
Leicester

I assume no players from these teams will play in the Wales game. What side would you put out.

GeordieFalcon wrote:So taking the table as it is...
Saries
Exeter
Wasps
Leicester

I assume no players from these teams will play in the Wales game. What side would you put out.

if we exclude those four, and remembering this is perhaps more a development international (though will be interesting if Welsh selection treats it as such):

Waller
Taylor
Brookes
Lawes
Attwood
Clifford
Kvesic
Morgan (Beaumont if fit, but unlikely)
Care
Ford
Yarde
Devoto
Addison
Roku
Watson

Haywood
Auterac (if fit, else Marler)
Hill
Symons
Harrison
Cook
Cipriani
James

Bound to have missed someone obvious

Er Sean Robinson!!!

Robinson is surely nailed on to be a Lions starter, so no point him risking injury in a meaningless test.

Very true LT