Eddie's England squad for summer

by rozakthegoon Tue 22 Mar 2016, 6:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

by lostinwales Tue 12 Apr 2016, 1:30 pm

Thought Bath's season was pretty much over already

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:05 pm

lostinwales wrote:Thought Bath's season was pretty much over already

Only in relevance

by killer938 Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:18 pm

Yep, over already, might as well not bother turning up to their last game Wink

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:29 pm

killer938 wrote:Yep, over already, might as well not bother turning up to their last game

Sounds reasonable.

by yappysnap Tue 12 Apr 2016, 10:02 pm

Watson gets a 2 week ban

by **LondonTiger** Wed 13 Apr 2016, 9:51 am

yappysnap wrote:Watson gets a 2 week ban

Yup, two 1 week bans. Loved the reported verdict for the tackle in the air - they deemed it accidental and caused by contact with Ashton, yet still ban him. Then we have talk about duty of care, so perhaps Ashton should have been cited?

(PS Beshocked - before you do your best Mike Brown impression and blow a gasket, that last bit is not serious)

by majesticimperialman Wed 13 Apr 2016, 10:47 am

I think the ban is reasonable and not over the top like in the Marler case. The ban and a fine to boot.

At least he we be avalable for the summer tour.

by beshocked Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:21 pm

2 weeks is fine.

Doesn't let him off scot free but allows him to be fresh and ready for England. Coincidence?

majesticimperialman agree. Not a circus surrounding Watson.

by **LondonTiger** Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:46 pm

Eddie Jones says that a handful of Grand Slam winners have gone back to their clubs and underperformed and are at risk of missing the summer tour.

BBC Website wrote:England coach Eddie Jones has warned that a handful of Grand Slam winners are at risk of missing out on the summer tour of Australia.

He says some of those involved in the Six Nations win have not played well enough since returning to their clubs.

"Personally I've been disappointed in three or four players who have gone back [to their clubs] and played quite poorly," Jones told the BBC.

"Those players have put their tour place to Australia in jeopardy."

And while some England players have been on good form of late, Jones feels certain individuals have grown complacent since the Grand Slam success.

"Some might have little injuries, and some of them have agents or the media in their ear telling them how good they are," he continued.

"They have just got too far ahead of themselves."

Following the Six Nations clean-sweep, England have three teams in the semi-finals of the European Champions Cup, with Wasps, Saracens and Leicester in action next weekend.

"We should be happy [with the state of English rugby], but we have also got to be quite aware that we have got to keep improving," Jones insisted.

"And some of the players have fallen into what I call the 'good game', people are slapping them on the back, telling them how good they are. They are not working hard enough to improve their game.

"Some of the players have been told directly, some of them have been told through other sources.

"But they will get the message. We'll see on the rugby field [how they respond]."

I wonder who he is thinking about?

by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:51 pm

Ben Youngs has been inconsistent since coming back to Tigers, he often is straight after an international period too.

That said he fired in the moments that mattered against Stade in the quarter final and made the right choice for important chances such as setting up Goneva for one of his tries - the first I think but can't remember exactly.

Watson won't have impressed with his antics after the red card either.

Neither will be left out though.

by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2016, 3:55 pm

Against Exeter Haskell was well of the usual high standards he hits for Wasps as well.

Thomas Young coming on for him was a turning point in that second half.

by bluestonevedder Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:21 pm

Off the top of my head and considering only the match day 23, I would think that EJ might be thinking of Watson, Haskell, Youngs, Joseph, maybe Cole and Launchbury?

by lostinwales Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:33 pm

Interesting that the interview flagged up Ben Te'o as a possible pick for the Oz tour

by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2016, 4:57 pm

lostinwales wrote:Interesting that the interview flagged up Ben Te'o as a possible pick for the Oz tour

It's a rumour that keeps coming up and feels increasingly likely to happen.

12.Tuilagi, Slade
13.Josheph, Daly

If Te'o leapfrogs any of those guys it will be extremely annoying given that all 4 are better players. Beyond that if Jones wants a hard hitting and strong carrying 12 then I'd much rather Sam Hill is kept around the set-up. Hill reads the game better, has better hands and is much younger so he'll keep improving.

Te'o at international level would be much the same as Burrell. Solid at a few things and strong in contact but beyond that he'll get found out due to his lack of all round skills and tendency to always look for contact regardless of what's around him.

9.Youngs, Care, Robson
10.Farrell, Ford
11.Nowel, Yarde
12.Tuilagi, Slade, Hill
13.Joseph, Daly
14.Watson, Wade/Roko/Ashton
15.Brown, Goode

Given that summer touring parties are always bigger than the EPS I'd like to see that travel in the backs. 5 centres looks like overkill there but I'm basically presuming that there will be an injury concern somewhere amongst Farrell, Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly and Slade.

by king_carlos Fri 15 Apr 2016, 5:02 pm

It's also interesting that Jones talks about 'a borderline player for us' who he's spoken too about missing the tour to play in the Olympic warm-up tournaments in June.

The Beeb article name checks Simpson, Yarde and Roko as the type of players likely to be interested there. Wade would also be a fantastic 7s players. As would Clifford but there's no chance he won't tour Aus and probably start a test.

Daly is another who would be great in 7s but is hopefully going to get time in the tests.

by lostinwales Fri 15 Apr 2016, 5:11 pm

Just doing a little research, te'o is 29 now so might struggle to get to the next RWC, and as has been said there is plenty of choice at center. Seems odd - other than the old RL fetish (which you would have hoped the burgess affair would have killed off)

by **LondonTiger** Sat 16 Apr 2016, 8:09 am

BillyV and Haskell name Checked on BT as players whobhave underperformed back at clubs.

by yappysnap Sat 16 Apr 2016, 9:29 am

Don't let Beshocked see that!

It's all mind games tbh, I like the idea that two of our better players have underperformed according to the coach, hopefully it'll keep them focussed (in Haskells case) and able to keep learning new skills (in Billy's case).

Guys who genuinely underperformed to my mind would be Joseph and Nowell. I'd like to see a big finish from both of them over the next few weeks.

Lawes is another and he already looks far better then a few weeks ago.

by kingelderfield Sun 17 Apr 2016, 3:34 pm

I hope that Wade has got everyone's attention with his double hatrick, though he will have to maintain an incredibly high standard over the remaining games, with a couple of match/cup winning performances thrown in if he is going to make the squad to Oz.

I'm obviously a very big fan and so it pains me to think that he's actually lost some pace and confidence with his various injuries.

by kingelderfield Sun 17 Apr 2016, 4:42 pm

Just watched Sale/Bath game and have to say there is no way either Ford or Joseph looked worth their selections.

Ford looks completely lost (and I think he was captain today......) and Joseph utterly disconnected and aloof from the game.

If you didn't know it and were asked to say who you thought the england internationals were, well from that performance you'd probably think the Sale wing and full back, certainly not Ford and Joseph.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 17 Apr 2016, 5:45 pm

yappysnap wrote:Don't let Beshocked see that

Lawes is another and he already looks far better then a few weeks ago.

Playing at 6 because of injuries both helps and hinders Lawes. It allows him to be more visible, but he is not international quality in that position.

by beshocked Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:07 am

Londontiger well I thought Billy did just fine vs Quins.

Care was poor vs Sarries. Mugged by Kruis and smashed by Billy.

Brown one good break aside I think was emphatically outshone by Goode.

kingelderfield 6 tries vs 10th in the league is great but let's see what Wade can do against stronger sides.

Like the look of H.Mallinder. You can tell he's still learning but he looks like a decent prospect.

king carlos Yarde? Can't see it personally,Yarde was another player who struggled at Wembley, Ashton had his number.

Robshaw and Clifford looked sharp and showed great workrate.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:18 am

Will be interesting to see what Jones does with Goode this summer. He'll surely want to have a look at someone else at full back and Goodes form has been good for Saracens. Bar Ireland a few years back he's never really impressed at full back, primarily due to lack of speed (expected) and a bit pants in the air (unexpected). It's surely going to be either him or Watson tried there for a few games, given Watson is shining on the wing he may be loathed to move him.

Thought Wood really caught the eye again, though suspect he'll be well down the pecking order now, can't really see him getting a look in. T'eo seems a good bet to tour, though by next year Mallinder could come strongly into the reckoning.

by beshocked Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:25 am

no 7 & 1/2 he's not really had a proper run out with Jones though has he?

A team needs to utilises a players' strengths. A strength that Goode has that Brown does not is playmaking.

Now perhaps Goode simply will never settle at international level but if Jones can get a good performance out of Goode then it will add a more intelligent FB to the equation.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:30 am

Goode is nowhere near good to play for England. If we have Nowell and Goode in the same back 3 it's got to be one of the slowest units in world rugby.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:31 am

No he hasn't. That's what we need over the summer and maybe into the AIs. I think it's out of him and Watson to start at full back in Aus. Austin Healy was certainly banging Goodes drum at the weekend, and most of the season. We may well see Jones move away from Lancasters core in the summer and beyond so it may be a move to a playmaking 15, battering ram 12 and a Daly or Slade to add more playmaking at 13.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:31 am

I think he may be thinking of dropping Ashton in at right wing as well Pooly. May be sink or swim for them both.

by Sgt_Pooly Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:33 am

Ashton is a serious weapon at Int level, as we've seen. Goode is just not a weapon, he's a liability in defence and the slowest FB ever!

by **LondonTiger** Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:37 am

Ashron will love coming inside on those supporting runs, especially if the defence are getting fixed by a power runner like Manu. However both of those two need to show much better defence if they are selected by Jones.

by bluestonevedder Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:37 am

Don't think Big Billy has been poor since his return from Six nations. If anything, I think it looks as though he's continued his international form.

Haskell I definitely think is one of the players EJ eluded to. Maybe even Brown.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:38 am

Hmm, I don't know. Think he deserves a few games run to see. His high and low have both come against Ireland neither really showcasing any playmaking ability. The nearest we saw was one kick in the wc warm ups.

Same with Ashton really, he probably deserves one final run to see if he can get back to the standards of when he burst on the international scene. He was disappointing for a long while before finally being dropped.

by Geordie Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:49 am

I agree, despite being one of the big players for England, I think Browns position could be one of those under threat.

It hasn't mattered in the past, but I think this 6n really showed up more his lack of attacking intelligence and variety. And if I noticed it then Jones will have.

by lostinwales Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:56 am

Difficult with Brown because usually he's done something very good to get into a position where he makes the obvious mistakes, but I do think he wasn't at his best at the 6N.

Switching to Goode would need a big rethink in how we play though. When we counterattack Brown is often the guy who starts everything off - gives us momentum. Before him it was Foden who was also our best player for a couple of years and offered a real running threat. Goode will absolutely not do that. Its not that Goode won't try its just that at international level he seems incapable of beating anyone as he runs the ball slowly back.

by Geordie Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:05 am

Yeah it will require a change , but maybe that's needed to improve the attack.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:07 am

There'll be changes in the midfield as well to go with that. T'eo/Tuilagi, Slade/Daly.

by lostinwales Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:19 am

Don't want to see T'eo. I don't think he'd be anything more than a stopgap when I am not sure one is needed.

I haven't seen or heard much about him (other than the ex Leinster ex RL loose forward 29 yrs old thing) - is he genuinely one of the best centers in England?

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:22 am

Not seen very much at all to be honest. Don't think we need him, don't want him but Jones seems keen on him as long as the clubs say it's ok due to him moving to the prem next season. Hope they just say no.

by Geordie Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:24 am

Yeah ill echo that....NO thank you. Id rather see Hill or the young lads getting the spots.

by bluestonevedder Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:28 am

lostinwales wrote:Don't want to see T'eo. I don't think he'd be anything more than a stopgap when I am not sure one is needed.

I haven't seen or heard much about him (other than the ex Leinster ex RL loose forward 29 yrs old thing) - is he genuinely one of the best centers in England?

Completely echo this. I haven't seen him grab the headlines for playing amazingly well. If he hadn't been Burgess' lock pairing at the Rabbitohs, would there be all this furore surrounding him? Not so sure. Happy to be corrected if I'm wrong! I' don't get to watching much Pro12.

by sad_gimp Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:28 am

Wouldn't mind someone having a go at the 15 shirt but not sure who's holding their hand up? Bit of a competition for Brown to spur him on to fix a couple of things (look for the pass more, mainly) would be good.

I still think Cips deserves a bench spot, he was excellent in his cameos in the RWC warmups.

by Geordie Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:31 am

I think Watson will get some gametime there on the tour.

by fa0019 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:32 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ashton is a serious weapon at Int level, as we've seen. Goode is just not a weapon, he's a liability in defence and the slowest FB ever!

I don't think he's as slow as he looks. Has this lazy style of running. I reckon he'd beat Brown in a foot race and off the mark too. That said I reckon Mako would challenge Brown over 100 metres. Wink

Brown never lacks pace in defence probably because his position and game awareness is spot on... but in attack he isn't able to finish where quicker 15s would do so. He makes yards, beats the first man but in a foot race to the line I think most backs can catch him up.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:37 am

Browns quicker. Goode runs in treacle.

by beshocked Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:48 am

fa0019 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ashton is a serious weapon at Int level, as we've seen. Goode is just not a weapon, he's a liability in defence and the slowest FB ever!

I don't think he's as slow as he looks. Has this lazy style of running. I reckon he'd beat Brown in a foot race and off the mark too. That said I reckon Mako would challenge Brown over 100 metres.
Brown never lacks pace in defence probably because his position and game awareness is spot on... but in attack he isn't able to finish where quicker 15s would do so. He makes yards, beats the first man but in a foot race to the line I think most backs can catch him up.

Disagree I don't think Brown's game awareness is good, seen him miss support runners too often. He's strong though and does generally beat the first man as you say. It's why he's been a generally reliable FB for England.

Someone like Goode is the opposite, he's got excellent vision but physically he's not that strong and can be either pushed out of the way or outpaced.

As for Ashton you are right, he has been a serious weapon at int level, with Flood at 10. Under Lancaster, Ashton has struggled but at club level he's been a try scoring machine because he runs excellent support lines.

Got to utilise a player's strengths.

by **LondonTiger** Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:57 am

bluestonevedder wrote:Don't think Big Billy has been poor since his return from Six nations. If anything, I think it looks as though he's continued his international form.

Haskell I definitely think is one of the players EJ eluded to. Maybe even Brown.

I could understand Brown being referred to. The words Jones used did imply a younger player too though and spoke about players who had missed games. Both Haskell and Billy who were namechecked by BT missed games straight after 6Ns, and Bill was poor against Saints. However he would be one of the first names on my teamsheet. It should be expected that players will have a little dip after a GS, especially ones like Billy that put in a massive shift.

Also another big NO to Teo.

by fa0019 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 10:57 am

beshocked wrote:
fa0019 wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:Ashton is a serious weapon at Int level, as we've seen. Goode is just not a weapon, he's a liability in defence and the slowest FB ever!

I don't think he's as slow as he looks. Has this lazy style of running. I reckon he'd beat Brown in a foot race and off the mark too. That said I reckon Mako would challenge Brown over 100 metres.
Brown never lacks pace in defence probably because his position and game awareness is spot on... but in attack he isn't able to finish where quicker 15s would do so. He makes yards, beats the first man but in a foot race to the line I think most backs can catch him up.

Disagree I don't think Brown's game awareness is good, seen him miss support runners too often. He's strong though and does generally beat the first man as you say. It's why he's been a generally reliable FB for England.

Someone like Goode is the opposite, he's got excellent vision but physically he's not that strong and can be either pushed out of the way or outpaced.

As for Ashton you are right, he has been a serious weapon at int level, with Flood at 10. Under Lancaster, Ashton has struggled but at club level he's been a try scoring machine because he runs excellent support lines.

Got to utilise a player's strengths.

I never know why people knocked Flood so much. I recall McGeechan publicly mocking him which I think was a little obtuse. He was excellent in the 3 match 2012 SA tour. He was very good at taking the ball in, excellent at spotting gaps in the line and always put his side on the front foot. Perhaps his game management was a little less to be desired but regardless of missing a little bit of pace he had a good eye for the break and guys like Ashton benefited heavily from such style of play. Cipriani had pace but couldn't take it in like Flood could.

by fa0019 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 11:04 am

LondonTiger wrote:
bluestonevedder wrote:Don't think Big Billy has been poor since his return from Six nations. If anything, I think it looks as though he's continued his international form.

Haskell I definitely think is one of the players EJ eluded to. Maybe even Brown.

I could understand Brown being referred to. The words Jones used did imply a younger player too though and spoke about players who had missed games. Both Haskell and Billy who were namechecked by BT missed games straight after 6Ns, and Bill was poor against Saints. However he would be one of the first names on my teamsheet. It should be expected that players will have a little dip after a GS, especially ones like Billy that put in a massive shift.

Also another big NO to Teo.

The sign of great strength in depth and a good coach is certainly the ability to drop "undroppable" players, those who have held the shirt for years, locked it in, the fans love, the pundits see as first on the teamsheet and replaced by persons you'd never think are allowed to be mentioned in the same sentence.

Selections such as

Brooke for Shelford
Skinstad for Teichmann
Davies for O'Driscoll
Tipuric for Lydiate

Brown plays very very well... but his lack of finishing prowess does hurt England now and again. But can a replacement do what Brown offers in terms of his boot, his trustworthiness in the high ball, tackling and defence and also his ability to beat the first (and often second) man?

by englandglory4ever Mon 18 Apr 2016, 11:21 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not seen very much at all to be honest. Don't think we need him, don't want him but Jones seems keen on him as long as the clubs say it's ok due to him moving to the prem next season. Hope they just say no.

Oh dear another downer on a good player. A player that no one has seen play but is being cast in to the bin already. The guy's got no chance if this reflects the media's one-eyed views. It smacks of ugly elitism.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 11:24 am

Let me guess he's a big guy you'd love to see?

My point is that we're finally getting that good crop of players through in midfield: Tuilagi back, Slade, Daly, Joseph, as GF mentioned Hill. Then you have the likes of Mallinder, Stephenson.

By the way I'm not part of the media.

by No 7&1/2 Mon 18 Apr 2016, 11:26 am

You changed that to say ugly elitism as well; what does that mean? I was personally thinking do we need a 29 year old mercenary who has never played here ahead of the talented young bunch that are now available.

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