Eddie's England squad for summer

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

Gooseberry wrote:Cole, the Vunipolas, Robshaw, Farrell and Youngs have been without a proper break for a full cycle or longer.

Hartleys diciplinary record has given him a boost there at least.

That's not quite right, though. Cole had an extended injury break following his neck surgery; Robshaw had the summer of the Lions tour off as holiday and also a longish injury break at the end of 2014. Farrell and Billy have had shorter breaks to recover from injury. Youngs could perhaps do with a rest... but is finally playing himself back into form.

I really can't see many players being rested, to be honest.

One option for resting guys in a few positions is to take a big squad and not let certain players start (or feature at all) in some tests. This is how the Southern Hemisphere sides do things at the end of their season. It isn't uncommon at all to see rotation on their NH tours.

This could work especially well with the props where we have 3 good options at LH and TH. Second row is well stocked to do this too if Kruis, Itoje and Launchbury are fit plus maybe Lawes for experience (if he's fit) or someone like Slater that could offer an useful alternative in style of play.

In other positions we are less well placed to do this though. Billy V is my biggest fear of burnout here as he offers so much more than the alternatives. Beaumont is a cracking player but would require a different style of play.

Hooker is an issue for rotation too given that Hartley should get a summer off if his concussion is as bad as reported. If that were the case then we'd just have to hope with everything we've got that George is fit to start all three tests and play close to 80 minutes, otherwise it could be bye bye set-piece!

Well Eddie seems to think Clifford is the new Rodney So'ailo so he can play 8. Ewers is a big lump of an 8/6 who will certainly tour.

Jamie George, LCD, Tommy Taylor, Mike Hayward. Yes young and inexperienced, but still very good hookers coming through.

I just hope that Haywood is backed ahead of LCD or Taylor, GF.

LCD isn't consistent enough at the line-out to feature much on a tour to Aus yet. Especially when we will need to use our maul as a weapon to tie in Hooper/Pocock so that our backs can attack off first phase without them waiting to pounce.

Taylor isn't great at the line-out either.

Thankfully we have a 2 week break between the 1st test (11th June) and the Aviva final (28th May) this time around.

However with the ERCC Final (14th May), Aviva semis (20th/21st May) and the Aviva final (28th May) on consecutive weekends we could end up in a situation where certain Sarries players, who could realistically be involved in all three, need resting.

Wasps, Exeter, Tigers and Saints also have a chance of being involved in all three but feel less likely to get there. Plus of course Sarries have more guys in the starting XV and more who are integral to it - Kruis and Billy V especially plus George if Hartley doesn't make it.

New introductions that have a good chance of touring for me will be:

Haywood, Hill, May, Yarde, Underhill, Hughes, Harrison, Robson, Devoto, Slade.

Foden is done at Int level imo, possibly Wood too. A bit left field but I wonder If Hammersley has a chance of sneaking in, he's been one of the best EQ FB's in the AP in a pish side.

I am not comfortable with LCD's basics at scrum time or lineout, but really unconvinced that Haywood will be anything other than a decent club player. He tends not to hook the ball and his lineout is decent but not earth shattering - especially considering just how many options Saints tend to select.

I like what I have seen of Taylor. He is one of the hookers who strikes for the ball which gives many more options, and so far when I have seen him his lineout is pretty tidy. Would like to see him feature against Wales at the end of the month and I hope he makes real progress at Wasps.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:New introductions that have a good chance of touring for me will be:

Haywood, Hill, May, Yarde, Underhill, Hughes, Harrison, Robson, Devoto, Slade.

Foden is done at Int level imo, possibly Wood too. A bit left field but I wonder If Hammersley has a chance of sneaking in, he's been one of the best EQ FB's in the AP in a pish side.

Re Hammersley - With Brown first choice, Goode liked by the coaches and Watson likely to move back there in due course I doubt it. Plus Nowell has the capacity to cover there in a touring squad and Pennell is a very good player.

From what I've read Hughes doesn't qualify until late June which is the very end of the tour so he won't be involved I don't think.

LondonTiger wrote:I am not comfortable with LCD's basics at scrum time or lineout, but really unconvinced that Haywood will be anything other than a decent club player. He tends not to hook the ball and his lineout is decent but not earth shattering - especially considering just how many options Saints tend to select.

I like what I have seen of Taylor. He is one of the hookers who strikes for the ball which gives many more options, and so far when I have seen him his lineout is pretty tidy. Would like to see him feature against Wales at the end of the month and I hope he makes real progress at Wasps.

The one thing I really see that could hold Haywood back is his size. For an international hooker he isn't the bulkiest guy. Other than that I think he's done everything he can to deserve a chance though.

Agreed his line-out isn't earth shattering (who's is from our current options?) but I'd still say it's much better than LCD or Taylor. He tends not to hook the ball but neither do many hookers nowadays. In a direct competition with Taylor I'd argue he's the better striker of the two actually. Plus he is a live-wire around the park.

With Hartley likely unavailable and George involved in knock out games if fit, I'd like to see Haywood start with Taylor on the bench against Wales.

LCD is a great prospect but at set-piece still looks like a guy who has very limited experience playing hooker in top flight rugby. I'd take Haywood and Taylor over him currently.

Good point on Hughes Carlos, he qualifies 27th June which is after the tour.....shame.

Goode

king_carlos wrote:He tends not to hook the ball but neither do many hookers nowadays. In a direct competition with Taylor I'd argue he's the better striker of the two actually. Plus he is a live-wire around the park.

I have to disagree with this bit. For me Taylor is the best striker of the ball in the AP, just ahead of Thacker. A number of sides are now striking for the ball - in part driven by what England want.

George is learning to strike - Brits is unable to.
Yeandle strikes, LCD does not.
Wasps tend to push.
Saints prefer to push, but both Hartley and Haywood are learning how to strike.
Tigers now tend to strike - Thacker good, youngs improving (till back gave out) but Bateman incapable.

Heck I have even seen Webber striking for the ball this season - formerly a hooker who was the epitome of the converted back row lump.

Certainly I wish we had signed Taylor ahead of Wasps and instead of McGuigan

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:He tends not to hook the ball but neither do many hookers nowadays. In a direct competition with Taylor I'd argue he's the better striker of the two actually. Plus he is a live-wire around the park.

I have to disagree with this bit. For me Taylor is the best striker of the ball in the AP, just ahead of Thacker. A number of sides are now striking for the ball - in part driven by what England want.

George is learning to strike - Brits is unable to.
Yeandle strikes, LCD does not.
Wasps tend to push.
Saints prefer to push, but both Hartley and Haywood are learning how to strike.
Tigers now tend to strike - Thacker good, youngs improving (till back gave out) but Bateman incapable.

Heck I have even seen Webber striking for the ball this season - formerly a hooker who was the epitome of the converted back row lump.

I'd have Haywood slightly ahead of Taylor as the best striker in the AP. He doesn't do so as often, largely because the Saints dive over the ball more often due to their more dominant scrum than Sale, but when he does it's usually a swift and clean strike. This season when Saints haven't been dominant in the shove so we have seen Haywood strike more often.

With very solid props but less weight behind them than in previous season actually hooking to get 'route one' ball has become a much more valuable option to Saints I've thought. I'd gathered that it's one reason that many Saints fans want Haywood starting over Hartley because he can strike the ball much more cleanly.

Taylor for me often relies on having his leg up (stop sniggering at the back) before the ball is in. Has anyone else thought this out of interest? To be fair I can't remember the last time someone was pinged for it anyway!
Wee Harry also strikes the ball very well - no coincidence that we are talking about 3 of the smaller hookers in the Jeff there!

I'd agree with your summaries other than this though. Also agree that I really wish Tigers had picked up Taylor when he was available. That said I think McGuigan will develop into a very useful Jeff player as well.

Wee 'arry is probably as guilty of foot up as Taylor. with front rows pushing before the ball is in (or pre-engaging as seems to be the vogue description) it is to be expected though as it enables them to get back into position quicker.

LondonTiger wrote:Certainly I wish we had signed Taylor ahead of Wasps and instead of McGuigan

Wasps are a more attractive oppertunity.

McGuigan is a tidy signing, he'll only get better. His set is getting better all the time. His scrummaging is mark up on TY and snd argue his throwing is too. He's an intelligent footballer...unlike Youngs and will be an Int under Tigers guidance.

Look at some of his running lines against Wasps, he's s really clever player. Youngs only has carrying over him imo

LondonTiger wrote:

king_carlos wrote:He tends not to hook the ball but neither do many hookers nowadays. In a direct competition with Taylor I'd argue he's the better striker of the two actually. Plus he is a live-wire around the park.

I have to disagree with this bit. For me Taylor is the best striker of the ball in the AP, just ahead of Thacker. A number of sides are now striking for the ball - in part driven by what England want.

George is learning to strike - Brits is unable to.
Yeandle strikes, LCD does not.
Wasps tend to push.
Saints prefer to push, but both Hartley and Haywood are learning how to strike.
Tigers now tend to strike - Thacker good, youngs improving (till back gave out) but Bateman incapable.

Heck I have even seen Webber striking for the ball this season - formerly a hooker who was the epitome of the converted back row lump.

Ward can hook the ball, is better at the breakdown than many 6.5s and good around the park. If he could just throw the damn thing straight.

I did not go down to Harlequins as for the life of me could not remember if as a club this season they were striking or driving.

I agree I have seen Ward hook well, but have a vague recollection of wee Harry striking one against the head at the Stoop.


ps please no-one think I am touting Harry for england. I am most definitely not.

Just as well.....

1.Mako
2.Youngs
3.Doran-Jones
4.Lees
5.Lawes
6.Croft
7.Robshaw
8.Wood

9.Simpson
10.Cipriani

11.Ashton
12.Twelvetrees
13.Daly
14.Wade
15.Goode

Thought I'd put together a side specially for you Sarge

Haha....I like a few of those Carlos.

PDJ at his peak...Lees, Lawes and Ashton are fine. Bloody good attempt though...touché!

Actually think LCD has taken a big step forward in his set piece recently. He is now striking the ball (at least for England) though granted its with the already raised foot which is technically illegal, and his lineout was spot on. He'll hopefully continue to get better as he seems intent on improving as much as he can.

The thing about LCD is the environment hes in.

Baxter and his team seem very adept at realising the potential. LCD should be fine.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The thing about LCD is the environment hes in.

Baxter and his team seem very adept at realising the potential. LCD should be fine.

Assuming he does ok in the Summer Language School the Exeter players are being sent on to learn to speak Fair Dinkum Aussie.

Slightly off topic here, what with the Marler episode still on going. Does any one think he will miss the summer tour as part of his punishment.

Because like it or not they ( World Rugby ) will wan't to impose/ or be seen to impose some sort of punishment on Marler. Simply because they are looking in to what happend.

It would be very harsh Maj.

But it looks like they're out to really make a statement so I wouldn't be surprised. Fortunately we have some good LH's available (Mako, Mullan, Waller, and young Auterac)...but I repeat would be very harsh on Marler.

Anyway lets not ruin this thread with that subject.

I see the Prem clubs are disputing Underhills "exceptional" clause and want assurances before they allow England to use the clause.

However, it is understood that the clubs are likely to demand that the player at least gives an indication that his long-term future will be back in England, having joined the Ospreys last year after making two appearances for Gloucester.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/03/29/england-call-up-for-sam-underhill-may-be-blocked-by-premiership/

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Just as well.....

You'll be all over the idea of Wee Harry next summer. By then he'll have converted to open side but still be throwing in. He's a fantastic menace around the park already and a little time spent working on his fetching game will see him a regular starter (he's been Tigers best player of 2016 thus far). Think if the advantage at the driving maul with both props there to lift and the hooker standing in the scrum half spot, as soon as the jumper lands the front row will be driving him on. Harry has the accuracy to reliably hit the tail as well, just a shame our best thrower isn't a mobile 18 stone former prop.

On a more serious note, we need to be resting key players that have played a lot of games. Particularly Cole and Robshaw who have put their bodies on the line for pretty much the entirety of the RWC and 6N. There's opportunities for young players in those positions anyway and no one expects us to win an Aus tour so be a good if demanding time for them to get a chance.

Players to be rested;

Marler, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Billy Vunipola, Haskell, Ben Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Angry.

Perhaps also Hartley on concussion grounds, we'll have to see how he recovers, plus there will other injuries to take into account; Tom Youngs, maybe May, maybe Morgan and others.

Now undoubtedly not selecting this many players, especially in the forwards, will leave us lacking in experience. However we do have depth to chose from and the opportunity will be fantastic for the selected players as well as for EJ to see various newbies up close. Added to this obviously the rested players will return fresh and extra keen to reprove their selections. Win, win, win!

Replace Marler; from Mako Vunipola, Matt Mullan, Simon McIntyre, Nick Auterac, or Kyle Sinckler and others?

I don't think that Marler will be banned if I'm honest.

For conjecture sake though I would expect Waller to be well ahead of Auterac or McIntyre. His scrummaging is a notch above either and his break down work is terrific.

McIntyre is an interesting name though. His form for Wasps this season has been more and more impressive. He is a huge man and throws it around very well.

Sinckler is a tight head and one that has a fair bit of developing to do anyway.

Apparently Ashton has been told hes still in with a shout of a recall for the summer squad. Whereas Lancaster wanted wings who were actually fullbacks or were there just to tackle, Jones seems to prefer wings who are complete t1ts (but score tries).

Watson though for me has to stay at wing for the time being. 10 tries in his last 12 tests, you dont really want to mess with that.

May will be back also. Jones has previously stated he's a big fan.

People need to work out who plays Lh prop and who play TH prop from some of those lists

Heres a hint....Marler is a LH prop. Sinkler for example is not....

king_carlos wrote:

McIntyre is an interesting name though. His form for Wasps this season has been more and more impressive. He is a huge man and throws it around very well.

Yes I have been keeping an eye on him. He's improving very well...and only about 24/25 I think.

kingelderfield wrote:Players to be rested;

Marler, Cole, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Billy Vunipola, Haskell, Ben Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Angry.

Perhaps also Hartley on concussion grounds, we'll have to see how he recovers, plus there will other injuries to take into account; Tom Youngs, maybe May, maybe Morgan and others.

Now undoubtedly not selecting this many players, especially in the forwards, will leave us lacking in experience. However we do have depth to chose from and the opportunity will be fantastic for the selected players as well as for EJ to see various newbies up close. Added to this obviously the rested players will return fresh and extra keen to reprove their selections. Win, win, win!

Can you individually list who you would replace them with? And you've listed the problem, the experience you would be losing for a 3 game tour of the World Cup finalists is quite substantial just from those few players.

PS whos angry?

Just noticed that no body seem to mention Christian Wade at all.

Is he injured?

There's plenty ahead of Wade imo. Watson, Nowell, May and possibly Ashton.

Wade hasn't look that great since returning, looked very average against us last week. Watson skinned him a few times.

I don't know the fine details of the english players but for me surely some players need a rest? So I would not take the obvious core players who have had a long season and use those squad places to give some youngsters game time

Sgt
Watson is turning into a cracking winger though for us.

TJ
I would certainly rest some...but that list above is almost like the backbone of the team. If you lose all of them you take a novice team which will be exploited.

A fine balance is needed.

TJ wrote:I don't know the fine details of the english players but for me surely some players need a rest?  So I would not take the obvious core players who have had a long season and use those squad places to give some youngsters game time

I'd be unwilling to rest players if I was in the hot seat for this tour. People talk about the long season, but England replaced 3 summer tour games and 4 AIs with 3 warm-up games and 4 RWC pool matches. If they've played more rugby this season, it is because of the clubs, therefore the clubs should be the ones to make the concession and let the touring party return to pre-season late.

England should pick their strongest squad for the tour, and if a player is obviously knackered he should sit out the tests. But we shouldn't be taking a shadow squad.

Watson is a real threat. I'd like to see:

11. May
15. Watson
14. Nowell/Ashton/Roko

Loads of pace and threat!

Sorry Sgt I meant Marcus Watson as in our player.

Yes that backline would be champion. Id stick with Nowell though. I really like him.
I do think we'll see Watson get a run out at Fb on the tour aswell.

Probably throw Yarde into that list as well.

Different players experience fatigue (mental and physical) at different rates. Some players take a while to recover from niggling injuries while some shake them off quickly or rarely get them. Some can play a full club/international season without ill effects whereas others need to be carefully managed.

If a player looks like they need a rest then by all means leave them at home or limit their game time on the tour. I wouldn't want to just leave a whole swathe of players out just because they've had a long, hard season. Treat each player on their individual merits in terms of fitness management.

I think you gain more from integrating new players in a core rather than trying to throw them all in together (where it's more difficult to tell what is and isn't working due to having few points of comparison). Jones will be looking to build a squad (and fringe). I'm sure there will be a good level of experimentation but not a complete tear-up.

I certainly wouldn't want to be leaving close on half of the 6 Nations squad at home like kingelderfield is suggesting.

That's the thing Cyril.

He will take a squad, and he will use the whole squad. Im pretty sure few players will play the whole full 3 tests.

I'd be amazed if Clifford for example didn't start one test. Imagine his pace out there from flanker. I know its not the summer months over there but should still be firm ground. That then gives haskell or Robshaw a game off.

He'll want to have a look at Ewers, Beaumonts mobility out there could be interesting so Billy might get a rest.

We have plenty of options, and Eddie will want to test quite a number of them whilst still trying to keep a solid and competitive team.

Re. Billy V, I think it's been great that he's shown he can do full 80s (has he played every minute of the last 10 6Ns games?) but it will be good to see who can challenge him at 8. We've really relied on him just recently and have been a bit lucky he's stayed the course. It'll be interesting how the back row dynamic might shift if he's not starting. It may well be a bit of a different structure if it's not a like-for-like replacement. That would be a good thing I think, but obviously it means other carriers have to step up.

Billy V is an interesting case for me. Completely predictable, one dimensional but did any team manage to stop him this 6N? Certainly he totally negated the entire scots back row which was selected for turnovers - but they had to spend so much time and effort dealing with Billy that they did nothing else. He always seemed to get over the gainline and to take at least two guys to stop him.

Interesting that he was so predictable but so difficult to negate

Jeff final is only 2 weeks before the first test. That could affect player availability, certainly for the warm ups.

TJ wrote:Billy V is an interesting case for me.  Completely predictable, one dimensional but did any team manage to stop him this 6N?  Certainly he totally negated the entire scots back row which was selected for turnovers - but they had to spend so much time and effort dealing with Billy that they did nothing else.  He always seemed to get over the gainline and to take at least two guys to stop him.

Interesting that he was so predictable but so difficult to negate

Yep, that's why, effective as he's been, I'd like to see how we play when he isn't there. As you say, he's not going to surprise anyone with what he brings so it would be good to have other options. Having said that it's not like sides can "work him out" as they already know what he's going to do. Stopping him is another matter. Ireland managed to stop him last season but I think he's a fitter, stronger, more aggressive player these days. I also think Eddie has got England playing to his strengths (concentrate on carrying) which is where we may see quite a different dynamic with another 8 (with Morgan it was basically the same again, even though he does have different qualities).

The advantage of aplyer that the opposition has to focus on stopping of course is that that means they are picking their side or adapting their style around the opposition, rather than on how they want to play. We've seen negative selections from England in the past trying to counter the likes of Jamie Roberts blunting their own attack.
Or the simple threat of running in the tight can suck in defenders leaving space for JJ and Watson to exploit outside.

Having a one trick up the middle might be predictable but Jones has traditionaly got his sides to set up attack in this way Billy V or no Billy V. That England have someone very good at playing the way EJ wants them to play is a good thing. Idelaly he'd kick all the goals as well but Im willing to forgive his lack of all round footballing skills.

Yes Billy has been hugely effective in the role asked of him.

And having a one dimensional player at 8 for example isn't an issue if you have the other two flankers who can change things.

For example having Clifford alongside him opens all kinds of options.

If we rest Billy on the tour, then I would like to see Ewers at 6 for that test. A) to see if he can bring his physical hard carrying game to the fore....and B) can he last 80mins!

Whats happening with ben Morgan aswell. Perfect for that role of Billys.

Maybe I am reading too much into this, but listening to how Eddie talks about players and seeing how he selects and uses his bench it seems very clear that his aim is to have a XXIII where the bench can change the style of the game.

In terms of long term development, I suspect that means he will look for players who have a point of difference - something distinctive to bring to the game - as well as a solid all round game. In terms of depth, he's spoken about wanting 3 top quality players in each position - whether that means two with a similar style and one game changer, or three distinctive players isn't yet clear.

I don't think we should be under any illusions that he is going down under with the intent of winning the series. That means he will take his strongest squad and I don't think he will rest players unless their form and ability to meet his demands are being affected by their tiredness or niggles.

What we might see, though, with more time to prepare the squad, is a couple - and really, only a couple - of new players getting starts or at least game time. The smart money is on Clifford and Slade, and perhaps Ewers.

He wants England to be like the All Blacks, able to bring new players through seamlessly. But he has a young, fairly inexperienced squad so the focus will be on building a winning habit first - don't expect him to experiment for the sake of it, or to weaken the squad when he doesn't need to.