Eddie's England squad for summer

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

Bambam surely one of each is the best?

Two contrasting players? With Nowell and Watson I guess you've got that but moving Watson or Nowell to full back if England did that would open a spot.

If not Ashton I would have liked to have seen Wade.

no 7 & 1/2 May was part of what was wrong with the Lancaster regime, he's not been good enough.

I would love to change my mind like I have with Nowell, I used to bash Nowell but now he's become a decent player I can't and won't. If a player performs I'll support their selection.

It's why I've criticised the likes of Webber,Clark,Yarde and May. IMO they've not been good enough.

My opinion is not set in stone.

Genuine question Beshocked - you we're pushing Itoje's inclusion pre 6 nations based on excellent club form despite lack of international experience.

What's the difference with Harrison?

BamBam wrote:I was responding to FeS who said he thought Ashton was quicker!!

I can only think of one incident where the two were matched up against eachother and I've just (unsuccessfully) been trying to locate the match report for the game in question.

All I recall is a ball being kicked through and Ashton scorching past Yarde to score. I think it had much to do with Yarde switching off, but it didn't paint a flattering picture.

Truth be told I have no idea who would win a footrace.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Nice how you're dismissing Te'o before he's got a cap....guess he doesn't play for Sarries. I've not seen anything saying Jones is a huge fan of Te'o.

I imagine Jones is trying his best to prove you wrong, he can probably think of nothing else.

Actually that was me marra....

And because I question his eligibility for England....and think we have young models of his type of player.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

BamBam wrote:I was responding to FeS who said he thought Ashton was quicker!!

I can only think of one incident where the two were matched up against eachother and I've just (unsuccessfully) been trying to locate the match report for the game in question.

All I recall is a ball being kicked through and Ashton scorching past Yarde to score. I think it had much to do with Yarde switching off, but it didn't paint a flattering picture.

Truth be told I have no idea who would win a footrace.

It happened but Yarde was jogging back oblivious. Actually worse than being beaten in a footrace.

beshocked wrote:

It's why I've criticised the likes of Webber,Clark,Yarde and May. IMO they've not been good enough.

You are correct, but in his case I don't actually think he was given enough time on the pitch. But I also think he was only at the top of his game for maybe 1 season.

May has performed pretty well on the whole, really well sometimes beshocked, but you've either not seen the matches (AIs) or can't or won't acknowledge the good performances (wc warm ups).

It was fair enough to dismiss Clark though as he had no international experience. It's why Itoje should have been picked.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It was fair enough to dismiss Clark though as he had no international experience. It's why Itoje should have been picked.

I see what you did there

emontagu Itoje has won almost everything he's done - U20s RWC captain, LV Cup captain, AP final 2015, ERCC 2016. GS with England, MOTM vs Wales European player of the year etc.

He's been talked about as significant prospect for years. He's only 21 - 2 years younger than Harrison.

Itoje has also got incredible physical attributes - being 6,5, over 18st and being very powerful for a young man. Very long arms too.

Old head on young shoulders. Great rugby brain.

FES I remember it. Yarde switched off as you say but it doesn't reflect well on Yarde. Quins were beaten by then so Yarde didn't seem bothered.


Clark has always been a journeyman, Itoje in contrast is not.....

I've always backed Itoje to perform and so far he has. Don't need to be a rocket scientist to back one of the best prospects in English rugby.

Bravo.... May played well in inconsequential RWC warm up games.... Take a bow....

Sorry Beshocked - didn't mean difference between them as players as they evidently have different skill sets.

More interested to know why, in your eyes, Itoje's club form warranted international inclusion earlier this year where as Harrison shouldn't be included in the Aus tour due to being unproven at test level?

Both players have been form forwards in the prem/euro this season, both have had a similar amount of caps for their club, both bring the physicality that Jones likes to augment their primary roles.

I can't see why you would be against Harrison's inclusion.

Hang on beshocked, you were crying out for people to be tried in those WC warm ups. What was the point if they were inconsequential?

It all comes back to you don't rate some players and then make up reasons they shouldn't be tried or just put them down. Which is fair enough it's just opinions at the end of the day.

beshocked wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So yes, we can see that May made a defensive contribution no one else could have. We agree.

He also made a defensive mistake that no one else did.....

Sgt Poorly allowing the opposition to score tries is not solid...

We'll have to agree to disagree on May, personally I think he's overrated. It's because fans like pace.

I agree with you that pace isn't everything. In fact, I'm even coming round to the idea of Alex Goode (so long as he's surrounded by fast team-mates). However, criticising May for getting beaten one-on-one by a lightning-quick former Fijian sevens player who had a load of space to work with is just poor argument. It's made worse by the fact that a) May got back to catch Matawalu, and b) May was only exposed one-on-one because England's blind side was being held in the scrum by a Fijian, so couldn't get across to cover.

May is far from a complete player, and certainly pace is far and away his biggest attribute. However, his pace means that he also offers a great kick-chase and great scramble defense as well as the x-factor to hit a team from 50 metres out. I also don't see how one "missed" tackle is evidence of weak defense, when he has been solid otherwise - at the very least no worse than any other recent England winger bar Nowell.

no 7 & 1/2 They should be for trying out new players and easing them in.

England failed in the RWC - Lancaster obviously didn't do a good enough job.....

Don't need to make up reasons for believing players aren't good enough. Just watching games of rugby makes that obvious.

jbeadlesbigrighthand you think that's the only defensive error that May has made? It's not.

Not for practice leading into a WC and finalising positions. Got you.

I can fully get on board that last point. We all watch and decide. You've just thrown in reasons sometimes which you go back on. Don't give debuts against good teams/traditional good teams etc that you don't follow through.

Saxons squad named

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/hepher-coach-saxons-squad-announced/

Forwards

Ross Harrison (Sale Sharks)
Alec Hepburn (Exeter Chiefs)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps)
George McGuigan (Newcastle Falcons)
Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints) *16 senior England caps
James Craig (Northampton Saints)
Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs)
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby) *22 senior England caps
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)              
Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs)
Matthew Kvesic (Gloucester) * Two senior England caps
James Chisholm (Harlequins)
Sam Jones (Wasps)

Backs

Dan Robson (Wasps)
Michael Young (Newcastle Falcons)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)
Danny Cipriani (Wasps) *14 senior England caps
Christian Wade (Wasps) *One senior England cap
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby) *One senior England cap
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Nick Tompkins (Saracens)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints) *13 senior England caps
Alex Lewington (London Irish)
Sam James (Sale Sharks)
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Management Team

Head Coach - Ali Hepher (Exeter Chiefs)

Assistant Coach - Andy Titterrell (Wasps)

Assistant Coach - Alan Dickens (Northampton Saints)

Team Manager - Richard Hill

Very interesting squad!!!

Mickey Young???!!!

McGuigan is selected aswell....

Brookes demoted.

Don Armand...I thought he was Zimbabwean? Or is he 3 year resident?

Nice to see Kvesic at least getting some recognition.

no 7 & 1/2 whatever Lancaster did in the warm ups it didn't work when it came to the actual RWC itself. Same with May.

Ideally you shouldn't throw youngsters into the deep end.

E.Jones would be wise to not make the mistakes that Lancaster did... e.g. put too much emphasis on May. put too much emphasis on a RL player in the centres etc...

The Saxons squad is interesting - driven in part by injuries and also by Jones wanting to see what 5th and 6th choice players look like.

Mickey Michael Young is a weird choice (even if some SHs are unavailable), neither one for the future nor very good. Perhaps Ben Spencer needs to leave Sarries if he is to kick on.

Purely from a parochial point of view I am surprised that not one of our lock forwards is going, but hey ho.

In Eddie we trust (for now)

Yes its curious no Barrow, Slater or Kitchener....

McGuigan I guess is solely to stop the Irish from pinching him.
Armand I can understand if he wasn't 27, I mean he is EQP and TBF I feel for him as Zimbabwae is not the the best of places for him.
Lees and Craig I don't get.

My favourite bit is that they call Taylor Wasps, but McGuigan Falcons. Surely Taylor should be Sale or McGuigan Leicester?

This tour is apparently Hepher's audition for the England Backs job

LondonTiger wrote:This tour is apparently Hepher's audition for the England Backs job

Prob why it isn't a full development tour which it should be.

And has a lot of players 27 and over in.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes its curious no Barrow, Slater or Kitchener....

I'd rate all 3 ahead of Lees, Craig and Ewels, that is a strange one

I'm not sure any of the Tigers locks deserve to be in. Kitchener at a push but not Barrow. Is Slater carrying an injury?

If Craig is in, any of those 3 is an improvement

Is Craig even the 3rd best lock at Saints? Lawes/Day/Paterson being his competition

Please
Kitchener
Slater
Barrow
Robinson
Hell even someone like Merrick IMO

Should be ahead of
Craig and Lees

Yea, Craig is an odd one. Lees is better than those listed imo

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yea, Craig is an odd one. Lees is better than those listed imo

Yeh but he is a 27 year old Aussie lock.

All those named are younger and English.

I don't mind tieing in players but if he isn't good enough for England now will he ever be? And if not why not at least give it to a younger player like Barrow or Robinson.

At least Attwood brings international experiance.

beshocked wrote:no 7 & 1/2 whatever Lancaster did in the warm ups it didn't work when it came to the actual RWC itself. Same with May.

Ideally you shouldn't throw youngsters into the deep end.

E.Jones would be wise to not make the mistakes that Lancaster did... e.g. put too much emphasis on May. put too much emphasis on a RL player in the centres etc...

You just mean pick May! Don't get why you don't rate him but hey ho!

Welly wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Yea, Craig is an odd one. Lees is better than those listed imo

Yeh but he is a 27 year old Aussie lock.

All those named are younger and English.

I don't mind tieing in players but if he isn't good enough for England now will he ever be? And if not why not at least give it to a younger player like Barrow or Robinson.

At least Attwood brings international experiance.

Slater is 27 and Kitchener 26.

Lees has been in much better form than either and is a class above Barrow. Lees has a genuine chance of being in the mix as a genuine 4, I'm not sure the other 2 have at the minute. Slater is a fine player but possibly needs a good pre-season rather than a tour.

Yeh but English.

That's a different debate.

Going on merit, Lees deserves to be ahead of those listed.

Ash is a great finisher there is no doubt but he reminds me of a pin ball machine. Well the ball actually as he bounces off all other players like he is in a pin ball machine. Perhaps EJ doesn't like those sort of players. As for May being a test quality winger in defence well that's got to be a joke right? Watson has got it in spades May has lost his spade.

So England are tieing up
(brackets are other county Quailifed for)
Harrison (NZ)
T'eo (Aus, Samoa)
McGuigan (Ireland)
Haley (Ireland)
Hepburn (Aus)
Lees (Aus)
Armond (Zim)
Ewers (Sim)

"..At least Attwood brings international experiance..."

And a deckchair for those moments when he likes a rest. Never seen him bend over and push in a maul once. Usually likes standing up and enjoying the view.

Not tying up Underhill though....

What's happened to the U20s?

Let's pick some Aussies and Kiwis.

Let's not pick the likes of H.Mallinder and Underhill.

beshocked wrote:Not tying up Underhill though....

What's happened to the U20s?

Let's pick some Aussies and Kiwis.

Let's not pick the likes of H.Mallinder and Underhill.

Guessing
Underhill - RFU prob need more time to convince all 13 PRL teams
Mallinder - England want the strongest poss U20 squad to play in Manchester.

Underhill already said he wants to play for England, think that's enough to mean that we don't need to tie him up

Mallinder definitely should go to the JRWC, you've said yourself how good it was for Itoje to be part of a winning squad there

It will be more beneficial for Mallinder at the U20's and Jones has said Underhill will be in an England squad in 6 month, there's still issues.

I don't know how May's defence can be knocked and then Watson brought up as an example of strong defensive winger

Might have miscounted, but only two scrum-halves?  Isn't this a bit of risk in Australia if there is a last minute injury?  Would have liked Robson to be included.

Do England play any games outside of the tests?

Welly wrote: So England are tieing up
(brackets are other county Quailifed for)
Harrison (NZ)
T'eo (Aus, Samoa)
McGuigan (Ireland)
Haley (Ireland)
Hepburn (Aus)
Lees (Aus)
Armond (Zim)
Ewers (Sim)

This is like a surreal dejavu....  Wasn't I the one arguing about nationality....

McGuigan is English as far as I'm aware.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:McGuigan is English as far as I'm aware.

Yeh but Ireland U18 and U20's player I believe. So it was an option for him before now.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Welly wrote: So England are tieing up
(brackets are other county Quailifed for)
Harrison (NZ)
T'eo (Aus, Samoa)
McGuigan (Ireland)
Haley (Ireland)
Hepburn (Aus)
Lees (Aus)
Armond (Zim)
Ewers (Sim)

This is like a surreal dejavu....  Wasn't I the one arguing about nationality....

Just a bit.

To take this further, how about a team of:

Mako - Welsh Tongan
Hartley - Kiwi
Brookes - Ireland u18s
Lees - Aussie
Itoje - scraping the barrel but Nigerian parents
Armand - Zimbabwe
Harrison - kiwi
Ewers - Zimbabwe
Simpson - Aussie
Steenson - another barrel scraper admittedly
Yarde - St Lucian
Teo - Aussie
Manu - Samoan
Roku - fijian
Haley - Irish

When I look at my children and my 2 nephews and a niece there are at least 7 different nationalities represented if you go back a generation or 2 (More if you count Cornwall as a separate nation ) And yet I can trace my ancestors back at least 400 years to a village a few miles down the road. This is the world we live in

LondonTiger wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

Welly wrote: So England are tieing up
(brackets are other county Quailifed for)
Harrison (NZ)
T'eo (Aus, Samoa)
McGuigan (Ireland)
Haley (Ireland)
Hepburn (Aus)
Lees (Aus)
Armond (Zim)
Ewers (Sim)

This is like a surreal dejavu....  Wasn't I the one arguing about nationality....

Just a bit.

To take this further, how about a team of:

Mako - Welsh Tongan
Hartley - Kiwi
Brookes - Ireland u18s
Lees - Aussie
Itoje - scraping the barrel but Nigerian parents
Armand - Zimbabwe
Harrison - kiwi
Ewers - Zimbabwe
Simpson - Aussie
Steenson - another barrel scraper admittedly
Yarde - St Lucian
Teo - Aussie
Manu - Samoan
Roku - fijian
Haley - Irish

Just feel I should point out that Teo was born and grew up in NZ. Played union and league. He qualifies for samoa through heritage and Australia via residency. He went to Australia on a rugby league scholorship when he was about 17 or 18 (although Keebra also played 7's and and were Australian national champions while he was there).

Welly wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:McGuigan is English as far as I'm aware.

Yeh but Ireland U18 and U20's player I believe. So it was an option for him before now.

Of course, but he's born and bred in England.

To Irish parents