Eddie's England squad for summer

by rozakthegoon Tue 22 Mar 2016, 6:06 pm

First topic message reminder :

Hello you lovely lot.

I've very much enjoyed your posts over this six nations. Great stuff.

I don't post much as I'm a bit of a novice (well a lot of really) but I'm always intrigued by your far more experienced wisdom. So:

The summer will bring a chance for Eddie to put more of his stamp on the team; who do you think stays the same and who changes? And who, if any, so you think might be bolters? (I know it's an oxymoron asking about bolters this early, but I'm going to do it anyway)

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 24 May 2016, 7:47 am

But born and bred Yorkshire Wink

It's inconsequential anyway as he's going to get capped by England. I only brought it up as he was listed as Irish when he was in fact born in England and has lived here all his life.

by lostinwales Tue 24 May 2016, 7:56 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:But born and bred Yorkshire

It's inconsequential anyway as he's going to get capped by England. I only brought it up as he was listed as Irish when he was in fact born in England and has lived here all his life.

Which makes him just as Irish as Ben Te'o is English - technically Smile

by englandglory4ever Tue 24 May 2016, 8:45 am

Looks like Ashton has fallen out with Eddie. Ashton has refused to go on Saxons tour. Don't think he'll play for England again all the while Eddie is there.

by BamBam Tue 24 May 2016, 8:50 am

What a muppet

That should be the end of that

by propdavid_london Tue 24 May 2016, 8:53 am

I read that this morning too...pulling curtains on any future chances by behaving like a child.
Ashton will probably head to France now when his contract is up.

by Geordie Tue 24 May 2016, 9:05 am

Aw well Ashton has made his bed I guess. We can take him out of the discussions now.

We're still ok with wingers:
Nowell
May
Watson
Lewington
Roko
Marcus Watson
Wade
Yarde
etc
etc

We aren't struggling for good / untested but potentially good wingers.

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 9:22 am

To be honest I don't blame Ashton, better to have the summer off than go on a Saxons tour.

Surely the Saxons should be more towards development. Ashton has 19 tries and 39 caps at international level.

You might say it will damage his international prospects, Ashton probably thinks E.Jones has made it clear he won't pick him anyway so what has he lost?

Geordiefalcon depth, yes just not much strength. Let's be honest do you think any of them have the potential to be world class?

Sgt Pooly I've never said Watson is strong defensively, most English wingers bar Nowell are poor tacklers.

Bambam you think England will win the JRWC? Laugh

Poor junior 6 nations performance suggests not....

Underhill might change his mind.

by BamBam Tue 24 May 2016, 9:24 am

Oh funny that you don't blame Ashton, must be blinded by the sun shining out of his arse crack into your eyes

People comment on the likes of Cipriani having attitude problems, he seems to happily be going to try and win back a spot, as are other players who are close to senior squad place like Brookes.

Just seems to be Ashton who has decided he's too good for it .. good riddance

As for the JRWC, with a much stronger squad than the 6N, why not?

by No 7&1/2 Tue 24 May 2016, 9:28 am

Didn't realise Ashton has 19 in 39 now. It's really gone badly downhill for him since he was worked out at international level.

by propdavid_london Tue 24 May 2016, 9:29 am

I quite like the look of that Saxons squad - I would like to see a team like this -

Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps)
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints) *16 senior England caps
Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby) *22 senior England caps
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
Matthew Kvesic (Gloucester) * Two senior England caps
James Chisholm (Harlequins)

Dan Robson (Wasps)
Danny Cipriani (Wasps) *14 senior England caps
Alex Lewington (London Irish)
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints) *13 senior England caps
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby) *One senior England cap
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Bench
McGuigan,
+2 props
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs)
Michael Young (Newcastle Falcons)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)

by Geordie Tue 24 May 2016, 9:29 am

beshocked wrote:To be honest I don't blame Ashton, better to have the summer off than go on a Saxons tour.

Geordiefalcon depth, yes just not much strength. Let's be honest do you think any of them have the potential to be world class?

.

I actually agree re having the summer off. Hes probably thought whats the point now.

As to quality...we don't know. They need to develop and some of them could yes.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 24 May 2016, 9:32 am

propdavid_london wrote:I read that this morning too...pulling curtains on any future chances by behaving like a child.
Ashton will probably head to France now when his contract is up.

his agent was hawking him around France last summer, but he wanted too much money. I had assumed (perhaps incorrctly) that his contract was up then - so that would mean he is just one year into a new contract.

He has probably ended his England career through this.

by Geordie Tue 24 May 2016, 9:33 am

propdavid_london wrote:I quite like the look of that Saxons squad - I would like to see a team like this -

Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps)
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints) *16 senior England caps
Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby) *22 senior England caps
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
Matthew Kvesic (Gloucester) * Two senior England caps
James Chisholm (Harlequins)

Dan Robson (Wasps)
Danny Cipriani (Wasps) *14 senior England caps
Alex Lewington (London Irish)
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints) *13 senior England caps
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby) *One senior England cap
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Bench
McGuigan,
+2 props
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs)
Michael Young (Newcastle Falcons)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)

Sorry to be a broken down record player...but not impressed with that one though. He's an aussie. We seriously need to draw the line on all these caps!!

by propdavid_london Tue 24 May 2016, 9:43 am

He was touted by EJ as someone he was watching when he first came in. He is a unit, and I am assuming the kind of 2nd row that EJ is hoping to encourage when building that gnarly pack that he has stated he wants.
Yes, I know he is another player with an accent.....but he is qualified, playing well in a very good chiefs side and deserves his chance to impress.
I am surprised by the lack of Tigers in the squad, Kitch or Barrow look good. Slater has only been benching so perhaps needs more time.

One thing needed to compete in SA is a big pack....this Saxons squad provides that.
For me there are more surprises in the senior squad than the Saxons.
James Chisholm is a bit of a surprise, looked good for Quins when he came on - but like Slater, hasn't had much time. Mickey Young is another weird one, would probably have been simpson if he wasn't going for 7's, or Chudley.

by fa0019 Tue 24 May 2016, 9:44 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
propdavid_london wrote:I quite like the look of that Saxons squad - I would like to see a team like this -

Jake Cooper-Woolley (Wasps)
Tommy Taylor (Wasps)
Kieran Brookes (Northampton Saints) *16 senior England caps
Mitch Lees (Exeter Chiefs)
Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby) *22 senior England caps
Dave Ewers (Exeter Chiefs)
Matthew Kvesic (Gloucester) * Two senior England caps
James Chisholm (Harlequins)

Dan Robson (Wasps)
Danny Cipriani (Wasps) *14 senior England caps
Alex Lewington (London Irish)
Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints) *13 senior England caps
Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby) *One senior England cap
Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Bench
McGuigan,
+2 props
Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)
Donovan Armand (Exeter Chiefs)
Michael Young (Newcastle Falcons)
Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby)

Sorry to be a broken down record player...but not impressed with that one though. He's an aussie. We seriously need to draw the line on all these caps!!

Looks like at least 2 of his grandparents are English mind. Not a residency player.

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 9:47 am

Bambam Ashton has his flaws, he can petulant and stupid but seriously - what would he gain from a tour to SA? Surely the summer off to recharge batteries like Marler is the better approach.

It's fine for one player to take the summer off.... but not for another....

Also see it as a positive because gives another winger an opportunity in the Saxons - makes sense to try other options.

Would love England to win the JRWC but can't see it happening.

by fa0019 Tue 24 May 2016, 9:47 am

The saxons should win. SA has no regular 2nd team. No cohesion which at least some of the Saxons will have. They also have only 6 teams to choose from so when 25 are chosen for the Ireland series, another 25 or so will go to the baby boks and thats pretty much everyone starting SR regularly should get a serious look in and at the moment talent is a little weak.

by Geordie Tue 24 May 2016, 9:50 am

propdavid_london wrote:He was touted by EJ as someone he was watching when he first came in. He is a unit, and I am assuming the kind of 2nd row that EJ is hoping to encourage when building that gnarly pack that he has stated he wants.
Yes, I know he is another player with an accent.....but he is qualified, playing well in a very good chiefs side and deserves his chance to impress.
I am surprised by the lack of Tigers in the squad, Kitch or Barrow look good. Slater has only been benching so perhaps needs more time.

I appreciate under the rules he qualifies, but its just another kick in the teeth for you English lads. The potential amount of residency qualified players in the all the squads is becoming alarming to me.

We have gnarly players and we have some skilled ones. The Leicester contingent are all big aggressive lads. And English.
If we need a lineout operator, why not have a look at Sean Robinson. He was outstanding this season for us.
2nd in lineout stats in the whole prem!

We are in danger of becoming a laughing stock picking all these types of players.

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 9:51 am

fa0019 so on that basis do you think there's much that the saxons players will learn from the SA tour?

Geordiefalcon hope you're right.

by lostinwales Tue 24 May 2016, 9:52 am

beshocked wrote:Bambam Ashton has his flaws, he can petulant and stupid but seriously - what would he gain from a tour to SA? Surely the summer off to recharge batteries like Marler is the better approach.

It's fine for one player to take the summer off.... but not for another....

Also see it as a positive because gives another winger an opportunity in the Saxons - makes sense to try other options.

Would love England to win the JRWC but can't see it happening.

I don't think the work load and associated wear and tear for Marler as a front row who played all through the world cup and 6N is quite the same as that for Ashton some how. On top of that, as has been stated several times, the issues for Marler are not just physical.

by BamBam Tue 24 May 2016, 9:53 am

beshocked wrote:Bambam Ashton has his flaws, he can petulant and stupid but seriously - what would he gain from a tour to SA? Surely the summer off to recharge batteries like Marler is the better approach.

It's fine for one player to take the summer off.... but not for another....

Also see it as a positive because gives another winger an opportunity in the Saxons - makes sense to try other options.

Would love England to win the JRWC but can't see it happening.

Its not remotely the same situation as Marler, and Ashton has already had a nice little 10 week rest this season

As far as I'm concerned, refusing a call up to a national team is unbelievably low, and Jones should never pick him again even if the only other option is to play Alex Goode on the wing instead

by **LondonTiger** Tue 24 May 2016, 10:03 am

If Cipriani had declined the Saxon's berth would you be quite so forgiving Beshocked?

My suspicion is you would not have been, but you will now claim you would.

IF Ashton discussed this with Jones/Hepher and it was all agreed that it was best, then yes some slight comparison with marler can be made. However the main difference is that Marler asked to be left out of the full team, Ashton having perhaps expected to be going to Aus has declined to tour with the next team down. Would he have refused to go to Australia? Unlikely.

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 10:40 am

Marler has hade some nice rest periods this season from bans too. Whistle

Ashton might have mental issues too that he wants to get straightened out.

It's not refusing the national team, it's refusing a call up to the Saxons in a relatively inconsequential tour to SA when he's got 39 caps already.

If it hurts his future international prospects then fair enough, that's the risk he's taking but I see the logic.

Londontiger you are entitled to think what you want. It must be frustating for any player to be overlooked, especially when it seems unfairly so.

Would probably do Cipriani some good to have the summer off too - be fresh to fight for the Wasps 10 shirt. He's not going to get the 10 shirt off Farrell or Ford by playing against a 2nd string SA side.

Flourishing for a growing Wasps team will probably serve him better.

by munkian Tue 24 May 2016, 10:51 am

Ser Bronn of the Blackwate wrote:There's no cure for being a c*nt

by yappysnap Tue 24 May 2016, 11:11 am

Can't help but think Ashton started going downhill when he moved clubs.

He seemed alright at Saints and progressed well.

Now he's certainly got more physical, but his petulance and ego seem to have grown too.

Talented player, but a nob

by **LondonTiger** Tue 24 May 2016, 11:17 am

yappysnap wrote:Can't help but think Ashton started going downhill when he moved clubs.

Not sure I agree. His last season at Saints was not a good one. The previous season had ended with him being punched by Manu. Now he stood up to that barrage well, but he had started the whole thing with a cheap shot off the ball. Then when we next met Saints he sparked the mass brawl that saw Tom wood and Alessana sent off by dragging Tuilagi Sr into touch by his braids. Ashton had been off colour before then, but after his ban seemed completely disinterested.

He has been a much better player since his move, at club level, I believe. Of course being in a strong team helps with that.

by sad_gimp Tue 24 May 2016, 11:31 am

Well that's the end of Ashtonm can't say I'll be sad to see him gone. Contrast with Cirpriani's response who while prone to occasional bouts of off-field stupidity, has always had the right attitude. Even after being pretty hard done when picked for the RWC warmups, playing brilliantly and still being dropped, he's cracking on with the Saxons to try and earn his spot. He could easily have buggered off to France a long time ago, I hope he earns a spot in the seniors soon.

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 11:34 am

yappysnap the downhill at international level was partly down to change in management and 10. Ashton performed much better with Flood at 10 and with Johnson in charge of England.

His petulance and ego haven't grown, they've always been there.

Agree with most of that Londontiger but Ashton didn't start the Manu incident.

How it went: Manu clotheslines Ashton off the ball, Ashton reacts by pushing Manu in the back, Manu reacts to the push by punching Manu. Ashton was wrong to react in the first place but Manu started that.

As for the grabbing Alesana's hair - that was just stupid.

Ultimately it's Ashton who loses out if E.Jones refuses to pick him in the future.

Whether you like Ashton or not he hasn't helped himself.

by Geordie Tue 24 May 2016, 11:45 am

Is his Mrs due to give birth at the time of tour?

by nathan Tue 24 May 2016, 12:22 pm

Manu will miss the Oz tour then, the lad isn't having much luck.

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 12:26 pm

nathan wrote:Manu will miss the Oz tour then, the lad isn't having much luck.

Almost as fragile as JSD or Corbisiero. Wonder if we'll ever see Manu manage to string a number of games together again without getting injured.

by lostinwales Tue 24 May 2016, 12:32 pm

beshocked wrote:
nathan wrote:Manu will miss the Oz tour then, the lad isn't having much luck.

Almost as fragile as JSD or Corbisiero. Wonder if we'll ever see Manu manage to string a number of games together again without getting injured.

I think we will, it just may take a little while.

The groin was the biggest problem but that has been OK as far as we know. Things like the hamstring injury are more standard and its a question of time.

by nathan Tue 24 May 2016, 12:34 pm

beshocked wrote:
nathan wrote:Manu will miss the Oz tour then, the lad isn't having much luck.

Almost as fragile as JSD or Corbisiero. Wonder if we'll ever see Manu manage to string a number of games together again without getting injured.

There are a couple of players that do not seem to like playing on a plastic surface, i wonder if we'll add Manu to that list.

by Geordie Tue 24 May 2016, 12:37 pm

So Teo will definitely start! furious

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 12:38 pm

nathan perhaps Manu doesn't but Manu has shown a tendency in the last 3 years to break down. Doesn't need the artificial surface to do it for him.

by nathan Tue 24 May 2016, 12:43 pm

beshocked wrote:nathan perhaps Manu doesn't but Manu has shown a tendency in the last 3 years to break down. Doesn't need the artificial surface to do it for him.

He's had a few niggles as all players do and one big injury that ruled him out for 18 months. So half of your 3 years.

by Poorfour Tue 24 May 2016, 12:46 pm

The difference between Marler's situation and Ashton's - at least in the way it's been reported - is one of how they've interacted with the RFU.

Marler had a discussion with Jones and withdrew because he isn't physically and mentally in the right shape to tour, and Jones put out a statement supporting him.

Ashton was told that he wasn't being picked, was told why, was told what to work on and was offered a place on the Saxons tour and turned it down. Jones said - in so many words - that he didn't think Ashton was listening to what he told him.

The difference in tone - particularly from Eddie - is quite telling. And while Marler has had 4 weeks off recently with bans, he has otherwise been playing continuously for 12 months. Ashton had the long preseason and a late start to the AP season, plus his ban.

While the media like to spin a story, one player's behaviour looks like growing maturity, the other's looks a lot like petulance.

by Barney McGrew did it Tue 24 May 2016, 12:55 pm

Can't help but feel Manu's best days in an England shirt may be behind him - I'm not sure his body can deal with the way he uses it. He could change his style to prolong his career, but that may reduce his effectiveness - he certainly needs some coaching input here. IMO one of EJ's most important tasks is to develop an effective and long-term post-Manu centre combination. And maybe use Manu off the bench for impact (if he's ever fit enough even for a 15 minute game-changing cameo).

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 12:56 pm

nathan still has barely played for England in 3 years though. Feel a bit sorry for Tigers as you're probably paying him the big £££ but not getting much benefit.

Poorfour growing maturity? Hard to say it till next season. Perhaps Ashton will keep his head down too. Unlikely but you never know.

by propdavid_london Tue 24 May 2016, 1:02 pm

Manu is out....who is likely to get pulled up from Saxons? Sam Hill, Devoto? Do we even need another option with Slade and E.Daly, Joseph, Teo already there.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 24 May 2016, 1:03 pm

It unfortunately opens the door for T'eo. I'd like to think that Slade is given the first opportunity though. Burrell is possibly the option nearest a like for like?

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 24 May 2016, 1:07 pm

Will Greenwood says he thinks Ashton has done the right think in deciding not to go with the Saxons - although he admits it goes against a lot of what he has said before about the game.

Will Carling says if he wanted to challenge for a place in the main squad then he would definitely take a Saxons spot. He thinks players in South Africa will be assessed for the character as much as their play, so Ashton ought to go.

Don't really know where I stand. If I was coach, and though Ashton was sticking two fingers up to me, then I'd be inclined to overlook him for the foreseeable future. If, instead, I though he wanted to get himself in the right shape to prove me wrong, then I might cut him some slack.

by Geordie Tue 24 May 2016, 1:12 pm

Its irrelevant now Ashton has done his thing and wont be picked again..i would imagine.

Yes Teo is in pole position now. A player not able to make the Aussie kangaroos team or even bench in 8 years in league, brought up in Oz, with Kiwi and Samoan heritage, who has never played a game in England.....wow...just wow!!!!

by nathan Tue 24 May 2016, 2:08 pm

beshocked wrote:nathan still has barely played for England in 3 years though. Feel a bit sorry for Tigers as you're probably paying him the big £££ but not getting much benefit.

Poorfour growing maturity? Hard to say it till next season. Perhaps Ashton will keep his head down too. Unlikely but you never know.

and?

I'm more concerned with him playing for Tigers, he's got over his long term injury that could of potentially been career ending. He has a hamstring injury at the moment which is pretty common.

People should remember he is only 25 and i think theres another 5 years left in him.

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 2:19 pm

He's only 25 agreed but Corbisiero is only 27. Hamstring injury is common but his injuries are a regular occurrence.

Injuries happen but more so to Manu.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 24 May 2016, 2:37 pm

He's soon going to be tarred with the brush of 'too risky'; even if the boy is a class act.

by funnyExiledScot Tue 24 May 2016, 2:54 pm

Re: Ashton snubbing the Saxons whilst I don't condone it (and I suspect it finishes his international career under Eddie Jones), I do think I understand.

He's 29 and in the form of his life. If Jones was ever going to select him it would be now. Jones has publically snubbed him and told him to work on aspects of his game. He's 29 and playing out of his skin. I suspect he saw the writing on the wall and has simply chosen to stick with Sarries and take the summer off.

It's very different to the Marler situation. He needed a break and ruled himself out of any international rugby. Ashton waited to see what he'd get, and then ruled himself out. He also didn't feature in the World Cup. Totally different.

The really big blow for England here is Manu Tuilagi getting injured. Jones really needs to get his primary midfield weapon into a functioning backline and start working with him, and this summer was an ideal opportunity. Ben T'eo will, I suspect, be the beneficiary.

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 3:04 pm

FES you say Manu is a big blow for England but he's barely featured for England in the last 3 years.

Fully fit Manu in good form is a real asset but that's a rare thing these days.

Burrell and Joseph have done fine as 13s. England have to see Manu as a luxury that might come back but can't rely on him as he's not reliable!

It's a sad state of affairs in the centres. 29 year old Aussie and forcing a 10 into the centres seems to be England's fate.

Still unsure which 10 will be forced into the centre. Maybe both?

Would allow E.Jones to play 3 10s in the backline. Lancaster loved his FBs perhaps 10 is Eddie Jones favourite position.

by No 7&1/2 Tue 24 May 2016, 3:07 pm

Doesn't really matter if someone wants to be a ten if they perform well in the chosen position does it? You want to play a 12 (at his club) at 13 (for his country).

by beshocked Tue 24 May 2016, 3:16 pm

Which player are you referring to?

That's what worries me though. Farrell in my opinion is a much better 10 than 12. Let's not stick him in the centres.

I know you think Slade can play any of 10,12 or 13 (played 13 vs Wasps), not convinced yet. Need to see what he can do.

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