Zebre/Treviso -going from bad to worse

Last night, the two Italian clubs shipped over a hundred points to the 3rd or 4th best Irish province and the 3rd best Welsh team and it seems that as usual they will fill the bottom two places of the pro12 at season end. Any hopes that the Italian teams are getting better are in tatters and it's arguable that if anything they're getting worse.

I know this has been discussed before but it has to reopen the issue of the Italians getting direct entry into the ERCC as a right no matter how bad they are. By now teams from the other countries hope against hope that they get the Italian team in their group - 10 points and a best runner-up slot guaranteed while other teams slog it out in groups of death.

I'm not saying drop the Italian guaranteed slot completely but there must be some mechanism - maybe make the guaranteed slot conditional on finishing 9th or higher, I don't know the answer. But the current system that guarantees an Italian team an ERCC slot when they are nothing more than whipping boys is surely becoming untenable.

I read that Treviso missed 38 tackles against us (Blues) last night. That's just not professional. I won't lie, I enjoyed watching the Blues hammer Treviso after they beat us in Italy. Have to be careful what I say being a Blues fan as I think we have the worst record vs Italian teams in the past two years but they're becoming counter productive for the league. I'd much rather see a stronger team from our league entered in to the ECC. The Italians need to take a step backwards (maybe even internationally) and organise their development structure.

I understand they have taken steps in recent years, they've reduced the number of Non Italian players a club team (grass roots) can have but this will take time to show fruit. Their national team is in termoil and is mostly floated by older players or imports. Their Union may need to impose the type of rule that England/NZ/Arg have and only select players playing in Italy. What ever they are going to do they need to do it quickly as watching Italians get thrashed is bad for the Pro12 and the 6N.

I agree with you that an automatic spot to RCC1 should not be given to an Italian but should be based on league position regardless of nationality. Why don't though the Italian national team opt for the same stance as the Argentinians where if you want to play for your country, you need to play in that country

Leinster-Zebre 52-0
Ulster-Zebre 32-0
Munster-Zebre 47-0

Looks ominous.

At this point these games are a waste of time for all involved.

True Raven wrote:I agree with you that an automatic spot to RCC1 should not be given to an Italian but should be based on league position regardless of nationality.  Why don't though the Italian national team opt for the same stance as the Argentinians where if you want to play for your country, you need to play in that country

I would have argued against that, but either of the Italians sides are making it very difficult to justify their inclusion in the Champions Cup. I wouldn't like to see them kicked out of Pro12, but neither deserve to be in the Champions Cup. Not at the level they are playing.

My only concern about Italy only playing those who play in their country is that Italy becomes weaker than they are now (should their internationals not return)), which is very weak. There's already questions being asked about their participation in the 6N's. With O'Shea taking over the Italy job, and with the Union investing more into the grassroots, I'm hoping for good things coming from Italy, but it will take a few years to bear real fruit, methinks. Hopefully a marked improvement in the Italian side, in the short term, though.

Have we all forgot why the Italian teams are in this state?

The restructure of the Eruo tournament meant both teams lost double figure number professional players in one off season, they were developing pretty decently before that.

There were a small number of people claiming that the big loser our of the euro restructure would be highlighted within the first 2 seasons of the tournament was up, it's obvious that the short term victims have been the Italian clubs!

So lets say we ditch an Italian slot, and allow it to who would shout loudest to get it, probably the PRL...

Then what? Dragons finish bottom a few times in a row and the Welsh guarenteed slot should be given up?

Lets just call it what it is, Italian club rugby got raped by the PRL power grab, and they are struggling to gain their feet, reailistically they will need 2/3 more seasons just to get back to where they were!

Their academy system is now in place, and will reap rewards in a few seasons, but where do they spend all that extra funding they were promised in the mean time? With the stupid amount of money in England and France theyre extra few euros are being eclipsed.

The Italian team was playing a better brand of rugby this six nations. They had some new names come in and do alright.

COS needs to take control of the clubs and have direct input in the feeder league to drive forward Italian rugby. I think that O'Shea should be allowed to send coaches into those Pro12 and domestic clubs and shape how they approach the game to try and progress them.

It was notable during the Lancaster reign how the RFU started offering specific training techniques based on what Rowntree was doing with the England forwards. Was helpful for the grass roots coaches I know and if COS can do similar that may help a lot with future development.

Fanster wrote:Have we all forgot why the Italian teams are in this state?

The restructure of the Eruo tournament meant both teams lost double figure number professional players in one off season, they were developing pretty decently before that.

There were a small number of people claiming that the big loser our of the euro restructure would be highlighted within the first 2 seasons of the tournament was up, it's obvious that the short term victims have been the Italian clubs!

So lets say we ditch an Italian slot, and allow it to who would shout loudest to get it, probably the PRL...

Then what? Dragons finish bottom a few times in a row and the Welsh guarenteed slot should be given up?

Lets just call it what it is, Italian club rugby got raped by the PRL power grab, and they are struggling to gain their feet, reailistically they will need 2/3 more seasons just to get back to where they were!

Their academy system is now in place, and will reap rewards in a few seasons, but where do they spend all that extra funding they were promised in the mean time? With the stupid amount of money in England and France theyre extra few euros are being eclipsed.

The suggestion was for the top 7 to go through, rather than the present system which allows at least one from each Union. Not that we give up our slots for any other league to grab, which wouldn't happen anyway. We would be keeping the Italians in the league. Just that they would have to compete for a top 7 slot.

Personally, I'm not fully convinced this is the way to go, but the Italians sides form does make it more difficult to defend one of them getting through automatically. Actually, thinking more about it, you're probably right. They have been hit badly with players going elsewhere, and there is hope that things may change. It is frustrating though, and the hammering they are getting at the moment can't be attracting many supporters.

A lot of players left on the advice of Brunel, there were issues with the clubs continuing in the Pro12 given the Pro12 fleece the Italians in order to be allowed in. The internationals were advised yo seek top level rugby. So they did, a few have headed back like Barbieri whilst others have found that it's financially more beneficial to stay away.

I never read too much into the Italians Pro 12 results, simply because every time one of them plays away they have a 4 hour 30 minute (minimum) plane flight which can't help. At home their results are actually pretty good. Clearly when they almost never win away their league placings are going to affected. The above reason should at least be considered before slamming the Italians too much.

There are other factors that need consideration also, many established players have left their teams in the last couple of years and at the same time they have reduced the amount of foreign players in their ranks. Basically all the Italian replacement players have pretty much come from the Semi pro Italian league.

The easiest way to show this is simply look on the Italian clubs Wikipedia pages and see the sheer amount of players written in red, meaning they have no real established careers or achievements in the game at the moment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Benetton_Rugby_Treviso
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zebre

Italy have also had to content with quite a few international retirements, as well as having to look at lower divisions to fill gaps in their international squad. Tommaso Castello (Calvisano), Andrea Buondonno, David Odiete (Mogliano), Mattia Bellini (Petrarca) were all called up to the Italian national team from these semi pro teams during the Six nations, with Odiete (4 caps), and Bellini ( 5 caps), playing in the tournament.

Clearly Italian rugby has taken a few steps back since the World Cup, but in this instance I think they should be given the benefit of the doubt. Italian rugby is basically undergoing a "hard reset" at the moment, while it reorganises, and will probably be much better in the long term as a result. There is no relegation from the Pro 12 or Six Nations so there is no major panic in them doing this.

Lets be honest bad results are nothing new, their clubs have had massive tonkings over the years either way, Clermont 82 - 0 Aironi, Ospreys 75 - 7 Treviso for example. While they pull through their U20's and sort out which Semi Pro players can step up we'll have to be patient and understanding that's all.

Italy are going through an adjustment period and something has blatantly gone wrong with the FIR and Brunel. Favaro refused to be called up for the 6 nations and Vosawai was never selected (did he do the same?). Even with that they should have beat the French (I was there, Italy were so unlucky). They pushed England and Scotland close for an hour. They were blatantly demoralised and had no depth for the last 2 games. They may start doing something like "we will only pick 5 players based abroad" but a blanket ban would make their 6 nations team woeful.

They are slowly rebuilding as Scotland have been with new academies and expanding the club game. The Pro 12 needs to get rid of the fee (600k a season supposedly) and thought they did in the last negotiating round. O'Shea is a good coach who will help develop players as he has at Quins. I am happy to have their spot taken at ERCC but that weakens the attraction of playing for an Italian team and the money would still need to be fed into the Italian set-up.

Give it 5 years to see what happens. They are finally looking organised at grass roots and the amount of Italian players coming through who look decent (thinking the Italy 10 (Canna?) who was a policeman) will feed the 2 main clubs going forward. Think 3 years from now the trouncings will become less common and an Italian team will get 7-8 wins in the Pro 12. May even sneak a win in the ERCC.

If the Italians were to be removed from the Pro 12, what would the solution be?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:If the Italians were to be removed from the Pro 12, what would the solution be?

We'd simply go back to a 10 team league, unless Borders and RGC 1404 replaced them.

For the Italian teams, I mean. Where would they go, if they were no longer a part of the Pro 12?

We'll I'm aware a lot of the ex-players want to go back to a domestic league.

Shifty wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:If the Italians were to be removed from the Pro 12, what would the solution be?

We'd simply go back to a 10 team league, unless Borders and RGC 1404 replaced them.  

Or London Scottish and London Welsh!

I always thought the Italians should have started with one team in the pro 12; and if it goes well, why not a second one.
Japan and Argentina have started with only one team in the super rugby.

The Italian union need to have a good long look at themselves. If they decide to stay we should support them but things need to change albeit slowly.

Italy is a strange one to work out.

As a country it has the population and the infrastructure to support its own league. Rugby is also growing in popularity and they have plenty of players. What they don't have is the feeding mechanism to channel decent players towards Pro careers and they have been over reliant on imports to fill the obvious gaps.

I think they tried to run before they could walk and it has been a bit of a disaster. The worrying thing is that we are 4 years into the experiment now and things are getting worse not better. With the benefit of hindsight, they should probably have concentrated on building up their own league and on exporting better players to the other leagues in the short term. It is hard to believe that their model is even remotely sustainable at the moment.

Pulling the plug won't be easy though, whether they do it themselves or it is forced upon them. You do feel that it needs some sort of time limitation and if it is not improving in that period, some grown up conversations will need to be had.

cakeordeath wrote:The Italian union need to have a good long look at themselves. If they decide to stay we should support them but things need to change albeit slowly.

It's the Italian union that needs to support them not the Celts. According to Italian media, Zebre are on the verge of financial collapse and Treviso are relying on Benneton to stay interested. I want the Italians to stay but it doesn't look like it's a viable option at this moment in time. Their fans want a return to the Ecellenca.

I could see why the fans might support a domestic league in Italy. It must be very difficult to support a team that is routinely thrashed by everyone. At least with a domestic league there can be a competitive environment that will improve over time and give confidence to the teams within it.

Given what the OP said about the european cup - was there not an English side last year who lost every european cup game?  The european cup needs the italians in it.  To remove them would be a step further down the football so called champions league - where some countries get multiple entries while champions from smaller countries have to qualify - its no longer a champions cup.  The rugby european cup is already badly damaged and diminished by becoming a franglo cup plus a few other.  Making it less diverse will weaken it further in its appeal.

Also this season the italians have both won gmes - a total of 6 between them. One of the welsh teams is under threat from Zebre

Leave the Italian teams alone guys, after all if it wasn't for them us Dragons fans would be supporting the bottom team in the league.

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

cakeordeath wrote:The Italian union need to have a good long look at themselves. If they decide to stay we should support them but things need to change albeit slowly.

It's the Italian union that needs to support them not the Celts. According to Italian media, Zebre are on the verge of financial collapse and Treviso are relying on Benneton to stay interested. I want the Italians to stay but it doesn't look like it's a viable option at this moment in time. Their fans want a return to the Ecellenca.

I should have been clearer, I don't mean financially.

Well there is more noise coming from the London Welsh and London Scottish camps this week.

The owner of LW was promising a nine figure investment into the team if they were allowed to enter the Pro12.

It was spoken about on Scrum V last night, and they also brought the Italians into the debate questioning wether they bring as much as they take from the Pro12.

If you ask me, the writing is on the wall for the Italians, they were a nice project, but alas that project has failed, perhaps they should put all their resources into their own league, they might as well try and make a fist of getting their own structure right.

And london Welsh are not going to get into the pro 12 no matter what they might say - and the italians are here to stay. They need us, we need them. Its a huge untapped market in Italy for rugby. While the italian teams have not done well their results are improving albeit in a 2 steps forward one back fashion. Zebre have 4 wins this year. Same as the dragons

It would be a bloody tragedy for the dedicated supporters of Treviso and Zebre if anything like what is being suggested here happens. These are decent rugby folk who are easily the most hospitable bunch in World Rugby. Well I for one will be sad.

Well people might not like it, but it is starting to gain momentumn, the London based franchises are pushing for a place in the Pro12, and if they do get in, it will be at the expense of the Italians, the Italians cannot afford to be here as it is.

Find last nights Scrum V on the web, you will see a very interesting interview with the London Welsh owner.

I dislike the blaming of the Italian clubs who have literally been gutted due to the PRL power grab, they are the first short term victims of the mess that was the euro reform.

They are having to run clubs in the pro 12 with semi pro players, pick any 2 teams from the same nation in the pro 12, and take 25 first team players out of their squad and see how they go!

London Welsh are itching to join the pro 12, but to be honest their crowds are inferior, the structure is inferior, and the professionalism is inferior to any other Welsh region, infact they are probably floating around prem level.

IMO if London Welsh want to join the pro 12 they should put their money where their mouth is and get in on the Welsh prem, have a dust up with clubs of similar stature in Ponty pridd, see if they can become succesfull there then come back with hard evidence theyre worthy. Not only would that help them, it'd help the level of the prem.

LordDowlais wrote:Well people might not like it, but it is starting to gain momentumn, the London based franchises are pushing for a place in the Pro12, and if they do get in, it will be at the expense of the Italians, the Italians cannot afford to be here as it is.

Find last nights Scrum V on the web, you will see a very interesting interview with the London Welsh owner.

Its not gaining any momentum at all. Its another fantasy that will not happen ever. Why not. No advantage for the pro 12 to get a mediocre team playing hundreds of miles away from any other, the Italians are here to stay. Who cares what the london Welsh owner says - no one is listening. The RFU would not allow it anyway I am sure.

TJ wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Well people might not like it, but it is starting to gain momentumn, the London based franchises are pushing for a place in the Pro12, and if they do get in, it will be at the expense of the Italians, the Italians cannot afford to be here as it is.

Find last nights Scrum V on the web, you will see a very interesting interview with the London Welsh owner.

Its not gaining any momentum at all.  Its another fantasy that will not happen ever.  Why not.  No advantage for the pro 12 to get a mediocre team playing hundreds of miles away from any other, the Italians are here to stay.  Who cares what the london Welsh owner says - no one is listening.  The RFU would not allow it anyway I am sure.  

I can't tell if your arguing for, or against the Italians with that statement!

maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated. They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

TJ, just because you say something enough it dies not mean it is not happening. The very fact we had the owner of LW on the tele speaking about this and putting his argument forward would suggest that there is some momentum.

I'm sorry, but if the Pro12 is going to work, then the Italians either need to sort themselves out, or they need to go. It is pics ting everybody else money to keep the Italians in the league.

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

I was one of those 4800 people, and I was thinking the exact same thing, if this is what we can expect in the Welsh Prem next year, then the regions and the Pro12 will die a slow death in Wales.

Do away with play-offs let em in and have a Pro 14, at least the Italians won't be finishing bottom, and the London Exiles market could be good. In an Ideal world. Unfortunately I agree that they are at best Welsh premiership level.

On the other hand if the Italians pull out for whatever reason a Pro 10 would work too, less games to play, and better squad management.

Either works for me, as long as there's rugby

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

I was one of those 4800 people, and I was thinking the exact same thing, if this is what we can expect in the Welsh Prem next year, then the regions and the Pro12 will die a slow death in Wales.

The prem is getting stronger and tastier by the season IMO, with true competition to Pontypridd, Merthyrs money, RGC's development and LW added it would be the start of something truly special.

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

Where's the comparison? One was a Saturday game with away supporters included (in probably the biggest game for both teams thus far), the other was on Easter Sunday when other people probably had other commitments and had little travelling support. Averages over the season probably aren't close and for our biggest game, we drew 8,500.

All Saturday's decent attendance really proved was there is interest in one off games there.

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

I was one of those 4800 people, and I was thinking the exact same thing, if this is what we can expect in the Welsh Prem next year, then the regions and the Pro12 will die a slow death in Wales.

Please tell me how they're going to die a slow death.

RiscaGame wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

Where's the comparison? One was a Saturday game with away supporters included (in probably the biggest game for both teams thus far), the other was on Easter Sunday when other people probably had other commitments and had little travelling support. Averages over the season probably aren't close and for our biggest game, we drew 8,500.

All Saturday's decent attendance really proved was there is interest in one off games there.

Cardiff Blues only had 5000 on Friday night, there will be a lot more interest in the Welsh Prem next season, that you cannot deny.

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

I was one of those 4800 people, and I was thinking the exact same thing, if this is what we can expect in the Welsh Prem next year, then the regions and the Pro12 will die a slow death in Wales.

Please tell me how they're going to die a slow death.

Because the regions are struggling for support as it is, there will be more people watching the Welsh prem than ever next season. The under performing, under achieving regions will have to seriously up their games from next season onwards.

RiscaGame wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

Where's the comparison? One was a Saturday game with away supporters included (in probably the biggest game for both teams thus far), the other was on Easter Sunday when other people probably had other commitments and had little travelling support. Averages over the season probably aren't close and for our biggest game, we drew 8,500.

All Saturday's decent attendance really proved was there is interest in one off games there.

Really? Your blaming no away support? Isn't that the entire issue with the pro 12, away support is awfull? Hence why having no away support isn't an argument for have 400 people more than an amateur version of itself down the road 24 hours after.

I'm not claiming Ponty's support better than the Dragons, I also doubt Pontypridd v Merthyr (of division 1 fame) in the SWALEC cup was Pontypridds biggest game of the seson, a bit of a novelty derby maybe. Top tier rugby in a top tier division against international playing standards vs SWALEC cup 3rd in prem v Division 1 highfliers should be no comparison whatsoever, however there is a clear comparison in attendance figures for some reason.

It's a lot easier for fans to travel on an Easter Sunday for a local game than for Italians and Scots to travel away hundreds of miles. Those 5000 odd fans at the regional games were most likely 95% locals. That beats both home and away fans attending a local derby. It's all perspective.

Logistics is a major issue within the Pro12, but that is one of the issues it has. Rubbish refs, lack of local interest, under achieving teams, no affiliation towards the teams involved.

IMO, the Welsh Prem is doing more to attract the interest of the Welsh public than any of the regions and the Pro12.

On Saturday, the weather was the worst I have seen it for months, yet there was still almost 5000 people there, one off novelty or not. This will be a fixture next season, so that could be 5000 people who will not be supporting "their" region, add to the mix other valley fixtures then these home and away crowds added together because it is not a bind to travel around to watch the games will be to the detriment of the regions.

My heart says we should keep them but my head says it isn't working.

I'd have no problem simply dropping the number of teams to the Pro10 and playing less games. Probably better for the players.

I'd definitely keep Italy in the 6 Nations though.

I have no Issue with the best Italian team getting a place in the RCC, if we argue that they shouldn't what happens if Glasgow and Edinburgh finish 9th and 10th would Scottish fans be happy that there is no Scottish team in Europe an the SRU do not get this funding for a year?

The FIR need the money from the RCC to develop the game, just as the WRU, SRU, and IRFU do.

What I would argue is maybe the Italians drop to one team in the Pro 12 and concentrate their resources, Maybe introduce a European BaaBaa's team (try and get other European unions involved in its running, to try an d attract the best players outside the 6 nations in Europe and Italians not in their main team)? But they would this team get auto entry into RCC?

Fanster wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

Where's the comparison? One was a Saturday game with away supporters included (in probably the biggest game for both teams thus far), the other was on Easter Sunday when other people probably had other commitments and had little travelling support. Averages over the season probably aren't close and for our biggest game, we drew 8,500.

All Saturday's decent attendance really proved was there is interest in one off games there.

Really? Your blaming no away support? Isn't that the entire issue with the pro 12, away support is awfull? Hence why having no away support isn't an argument for have 400 people more than an amateur version of itself down the road 24 hours after.

I'm not claiming Ponty's support better than the Dragons, I also doubt Pontypridd v Merthyr (of division 1 fame) in the SWALEC cup was Pontypridds biggest game of the seson, a bit of a novelty derby maybe. Top tier rugby in a top tier division against international playing standards vs SWALEC cup 3rd in prem v Division 1 highfliers should be no comparison whatsoever, however there is a clear comparison in attendance figures for some reason.

Ok, so their biggest game (Cardiff home) pulled 3k. Travelling support is a factor. If you're not claiming that, then why mention the two gates? Do you want to play average attendances, if you're saying there is a comparison? I'm willing to add them up in work tomorrow for you. Oh and it's Championship fame for Merthyr (at the moment), not division 1.

Shifty wrote:I never read too much into the Italians Pro 12 results, simply because every time one of them plays away they have a 4 hour 30 minute (minimum) plane flight which can't help.  At home their results are actually pretty good.  Clearly when they almost never win away their league placings are going to affected.  The above reason should at least be considered before slamming the Italians too much.
 

I don't think the travel really does effect them, their home record is poor,
on just home games Dragons have 21 points, Zebra 15 points and Treviso 12 points.
on just away games Dragons have 4 points, Zebra 4 points and Treviso 4 points.