Zebre/Treviso -going from bad to worse

First topic message reminder :

Last night, the two Italian clubs shipped over a hundred points to the 3rd or 4th best Irish province and the 3rd best Welsh team and it seems that as usual they will fill the bottom two places of the pro12 at season end. Any hopes that the Italian teams are getting better are in tatters and it's arguable that if anything they're getting worse.

I know this has been discussed before but it has to reopen the issue of the Italians getting direct entry into the ERCC as a right no matter how bad they are. By now teams from the other countries hope against hope that they get the Italian team in their group - 10 points and a best runner-up slot guaranteed while other teams slog it out in groups of death.

I'm not saying drop the Italian guaranteed slot completely but there must be some mechanism - maybe make the guaranteed slot conditional on finishing 9th or higher, I don't know the answer. But the current system that guarantees an Italian team an ERCC slot when they are nothing more than whipping boys is surely becoming untenable.

LP,

Do the people running Dragons, Blues, Zebre, Treviso or whoever care enough to make the changes needed?


Actually do the WRU and FIR care enough about this tier of rugby to make the changes needed?

Now the problems are different, as the national team in Wales has had success and the Italians are tripe, so what do the governing bodies actually want to achieve?

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster, you will not get a decent debate with our resident Dragons fans on here when it comes to the Pro12, they are always bricking it when this subject is raised as they know if any region was to be axed to make room for another it would be Dragons. Que risca and stone motif to start insulting me.

Wrong. Nobody is bricking it because there are very real reason why none of of the current four pro entities in Wales can ever be replaced or axed. Even Roger Lewis got the message on this one eventually - here's hoping you do this time too.

That is why the regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty like you will always support under achievement.

Just as t is for the two Italian teams, there is no threat to them, they can keep finishing bottom without bring reprimanded.

It is beyond frustrating.

Dragons are the worst funded professional entity in GB and Ireland by some margin. Their own union tried to starve them into existence over he last half a decade. Only a complete moron would suggest they are underachieving although a brief search of my recent posts would see that my view is that the Dragons board are also culpable for their downward spiral.

The difference is I also understand the reasons financial and otherwise why even a competent board would be hamstrung, and also have have a realistic expectation of what can be achieved.

Then how would you explain the other three regions at least achieving something since their inception even though they have had to face the same problems that Dragons have ?

Because they haven't had the same problems, have they?

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

Grass or no grass, facts are, there were 4800 people watching a game in Pontypridd Saturday in monsoon weather, that we're not watching the regions.

I didn't question it was fact, I questioned it's relevance.

It is all too relevant as there shows that there are almost 5000 people in Cardiff Blues region who would rather watch other teams than the mighty Cardiff Blues.

It is not relevant in the slightest as crowds do not a pro rugby team finance; but as you will no doubt refuse to process this as usual let's just note that there will be 60,000 people choosing to watch a one-off game in Cardiff next month instead of watching Ponty and Merthyr and see if that makes it past your stupidity barrier.

There will be more than one game that day.

And?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, the reason Dragons fans have a problem with you is that you post things like this:

LordDowlais wrote:The regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty... will always support under achievement.

You really do seem to think that the Dragons, or the Italians for that matter, don't want to improve, that they're happy propping up the table, that the players and coaches don't care about winning games. It's totally bogus. These are proud players. They have plenty of incentive to improve, not least so that they don't have the humiliation of losing all the time. No sportsman on earth, amateur or professional, is happy to lose.

Yet here we are season after season talking about the same thing.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster, you will not get a decent debate with our resident Dragons fans on here when it comes to the Pro12, they are always bricking it when this subject is raised as they know if any region was to be axed to make room for another it would be Dragons. Que risca and stone motif to start insulting me.

Wrong. Nobody is bricking it because there are very real reason why none of of the current four pro entities in Wales can ever be replaced or axed. Even Roger Lewis got the message on this one eventually - here's hoping you do this time too.

That is why the regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty like you will always support under achievement.

Just as t is for the two Italian teams, there is no threat to them, they can keep finishing bottom without bring reprimanded.

It is beyond frustrating.

Dragons are the worst funded professional entity in GB and Ireland by some margin. Their own union tried to starve them into existence over he last half a decade. Only a complete moron would suggest they are underachieving although a brief search of my recent posts would see that my view is that the Dragons board are also culpable for their downward spiral.

The difference is I also understand the reasons financial and otherwise why even a competent board would be hamstrung, and also have have a realistic expectation of what can be achieved.

Then how would you explain the other three regions at least achieving something since their inception even though they have had to face the same problems that Dragons have ?

Because they haven't had the same problems, have they?

Oh no, it's only poor old Dragons who have had their issues since regionalism.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

Grass or no grass, facts are, there were 4800 people watching a game in Pontypridd Saturday in monsoon weather, that we're not watching the regions.

I didn't question it was fact, I questioned it's relevance.

It is all too relevant as there shows that there are almost 5000 people in Cardiff Blues region who would rather watch other teams than the mighty Cardiff Blues.

It is not relevant in the slightest as crowds do not a pro rugby team finance; but as you will no doubt refuse to process this as usual let's just note that there will be 60,000 people choosing to watch a one-off game in Cardiff next month instead of watching Ponty and Merthyr and see if that makes it past your stupidity barrier.

There will be more than one game that day.

And?

AND, more people will go and watch two games for the price of one.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, the reason Dragons fans have a problem with you is that you post things like this:

LordDowlais wrote:The regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty... will always support under achievement.

You really do seem to think that the Dragons, or the Italians for that matter, don't want to improve, that they're happy propping up the table, that the players and coaches don't care about winning games. It's totally bogus. These are proud players. They have plenty of incentive to improve, not least so that they don't have the humiliation of losing all the time. No sportsman on earth, amateur or professional, is happy to lose.

Nonetheless, he has a point about a lack of a risk and reward culture within Welsh rugby despite private investors being involved.

But I think he is incorrect about saying the Italian teams face no punitive actions linked to poor results. Their short history indicates they have done when Aironi and Benetton Treviso were first granted licences as franchises.

Italian rugby withdrew its licence from Aironi after the clubs got into €4m debt, and Zebre was set up by the union instead. With Treviso set to face the same fate in 2014, and an alternative franchise be given a licence in a partnership with FIR, Treviso eventually persuaded the Union to continue its licence and invest €4m a year until 2018 into them. So a clock is still ticking on that club as well - they do face consequences.

LordDowlais wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Dowlais, the reason Dragons fans have a problem with you is that you post things like this:

LordDowlais wrote:The regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty... will always support under achievement.

You really do seem to think that the Dragons, or the Italians for that matter, don't want to improve, that they're happy propping up the table, that the players and coaches don't care about winning games. It's totally bogus. These are proud players. They have plenty of incentive to improve, not least so that they don't have the humiliation of losing all the time. No sportsman on earth, amateur or professional, is happy to lose.

Yet here we are season after season talking about the same thing.

Yes, despite constantly being told the points you try making are incorrect, you do insist on talking about the same thing. Why don't you answer the points raised there, much like why didn't you answer the two questions I asked you? You're the one allegedly seeking debate.

LondonTiger wrote:LP,

Do the people running Dragons, Blues, Zebre, Treviso or whoever care enough to make the changes needed?


Actually do the WRU and FIR care enough about this tier of rugby to make the changes needed?

Now the problems are different, as the national team in Wales has had success and the Italians are tripe, so what do the governing bodies actually want to achieve?

Two of them (at least) have made fairly recent coaching changes, so there's a case to say the people running the clubs do care.

There are no other changes to be made though. I don't see anybody in a position below the Welsh and Italians who are ready to step in. Certainly nobody in Wales anyway.

Pot Hale wrote:Nonetheless, he has a point about a lack of a risk and reward culture within Welsh rugby despite private investors being involved.

He would have a point on things, if he didn't add his little bits like Dragons are the worst pro team in UK and Ireland or fans will always support under achievement. There's no evidence to support this and when challenged on it, he can't back it up.

I'd happily debate the issue with lack of risk and reward, if somebody could tell me a realistic alternative. That's why it is pointless regurgitating the same "points" constantly, as there is currently no other choice.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster, you will not get a decent debate with our resident Dragons fans on here when it comes to the Pro12, they are always bricking it when this subject is raised as they know if any region was to be axed to make room for another it would be Dragons. Que risca and stone motif to start insulting me.

Wrong. Nobody is bricking it because there are very real reason why none of of the current four pro entities in Wales can ever be replaced or axed. Even Roger Lewis got the message on this one eventually - here's hoping you do this time too.

That is why the regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty like you will always support under achievement.

Just as t is for the two Italian teams, there is no threat to them, they can keep finishing bottom without bring reprimanded.

It is beyond frustrating.

Dragons are the worst funded professional entity in GB and Ireland by some margin. Their own union tried to starve them into existence over he last half a decade. Only a complete moron would suggest they are underachieving although a brief search of my recent posts would see that my view is that the Dragons board are also culpable for their downward spiral.

The difference is I also understand the reasons financial and otherwise why even a competent board would be hamstrung, and also have have a realistic expectation of what can be achieved.

Then how would you explain the other three regions at least achieving something since their inception even though they have had to face the same problems that Dragons have ?

Because they haven't had the same problems, have they?

Oh no, it's only poor old Dragons who have had their issues since regionalism.

Yes, he specific context of the Dragons, pro rugby in Newport and the wider Gwent, and the relationship with a co-owner who u til recently was actively trying to shut their business is unique to just one of the four.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

Grass or no grass, facts are, there were 4800 people watching a game in Pontypridd Saturday in monsoon weather, that we're not watching the regions.

I didn't question it was fact, I questioned it's relevance.

It is all too relevant as there shows that there are almost 5000 people in Cardiff Blues region who would rather watch other teams than the mighty Cardiff Blues.

It is not relevant in the slightest as crowds do not a pro rugby team finance; but as you will no doubt refuse to process this as usual let's just note that there will be 60,000 people choosing to watch a one-off game in Cardiff next month instead of watching Ponty and Merthyr and see if that makes it past your stupidity barrier.

There will be more than one game that day.

And?

AND, more people will go and watch two games for the price of one.

Or in other words, the pro teams are able to draw in fans far in excess of their shamateur rivals up the road by a huge multiple.

Look, Carlo Canna, one of few promising player could be "poached" by Sale Sharks summing up FRI problems. Unless they apply a rule that you must play in Italy to represent the squadra azzura, Italian teams aren't going anywhere.

Could you honestly say, with the mess they are in, that you could call Italy a tier one rugby nation ?

LordDowlais wrote:Could you honestly say, with the mess they are in, that you could call Italy a tier one rugby nation ?

They certainly haven justified that status for the last couple of season at least. And they would be Poopie their pants if they had to play Georgia in a play off game to tell if they stay in the 6N.

VinceWLB wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Could you honestly say, with the mess they are in, that you could call Italy a tier one rugby nation ?

They certainly haven justified that status for the last couple of season at least. And they would be Poopie their pants if they had to play Georgia in a play off game to tell if they stay in the 6N.

Then they should be made to shape up or ship out, and that goes for both the Pro12 and the 6N.

RiscaGame wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Nonetheless, he has a point about a lack of a risk and reward culture within Welsh rugby despite private investors being involved.  

He would have a point on things, if he didn't add his little bits like Dragons are the worst pro team in UK and Ireland or fans will always support under achievement. There's no evidence to support this and when challenged on it, he can't back it up.

Also, criticising fans for being loyal is a bit @rse-backwards.

I'm not criticising any fans LP. Please stop making this personal. 

What I cannot fathom is, you all reckon that you are not happy with the situation at Dragons, yet when I say something about them in the same vein then I am up for a good tar and feathering off the Dragons faithful on here.

All I am saying is, as long as the loyal fans keep turning out to support Dragons week in week out, then Dragons will have no incentive to improve.

On the other hand, when a team is struggling, it needs all the support it can get.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:On the other hand, when a team is struggling, it needs all the support it can get.

Yes that does have some credence, but seeing as the fab four Welsh regions do not have to answer to anyone for under achieving then the only threat they would have is if the fans decided enough is enough and stopped paying to watch failure week in week out.

Look, I am being accused of singling out Dragons again, but if you read this article back, you will see that it was not me who brought your team into this debate. I am now debating with Dragons fans so that is why they are the subject of my debate. So to even it out, next season I do not expect, and will not accept Scarlets going win-less in Europe next year, not with a team that will have the following players on show:-

Rob Evans
Samson Lee
Ken Owens
Jake Ball
Gareth Davies
Rhys Patchell
Scott Williams
Johnathan Davies
Liam Williams
Hadley Parkes
John Barcley
James Davies

Half of those will probably get injured in the manic schedule in new zealand in the summer, then come back to fitness just before the six nations only to get injured at the end of the six nations and miss the run in at the end of the season.

If scarlets want to win in europe, they should spend any loose cash they have on southern hemisphere players who will be there all season.

And why would (for example) the Ospreys have to answer to the WRU, they're not owned by the WRU

True Raven wrote:And why would (for example) the Ospreys have to answer to the WRU, they're not owned by the WRU

Who has said that anybody should answer to the WRU ? 

The thing is, our fab four do not have to answer to anybody, that is why they are not in any danger if they fail, the only worry they might have is if fans stopped going as the product on show is not worth the money.

At the moment the Italians fall straight into this category, they do not inspire anybody to get out of their armchair and go to watch their team play them, they have gone backwards at a rate of knots. So has the national side. 

People should be telling the IRFU to sort themselves out or they will be cut adrift, as they are adding nothing to the 6N or the Pro12. 

I am sorry if this offends you, but it is how I feel at the minute.

I'm not sure if Zebre have gone from bad to worse. Maybe on a par with previous seasons in the pro12.

Treviso got wiped out not too long ago in the FIR/Pro12 negotiations. There was the haggling over the payment going to other pro12 unions and in the midst of that Treviso was at war with FIR looking for more money and as part of that FIR were threatening to not use Treviso as one of it's pro12 clubs. With everything up in the air and uncertain, Treviso had to let some quality players move on as they couldn't commit to renewing contracts or issuing multi season deals when they weren't sure of pro12 future and what money they could receive. The heart was ripped out of that side with aging elder-statesmen and very young novices now making up the side.

This season was very difficult for them. The next two will be also as the pensioners go away, they will have young novices with some journeymen available to them.

Silver lining is the forced blooding of youth might create a great spine to the side if there is quality there and they could be set up for 6-7 seasons off the back of this. A bit of a long shot though.

Who should the regions have to answer to? (sorry, im not having a go, i just dont understand who they should be answering to)

They are in danger if they fail though as they miss out financially (merchandise, sponsorship, prize money e.t.c) We lost Kahn Fatouili because the finances weren't there to offer him a competitve salary and had to look to a lower quality player in Tito Tebaldi, thus lowering the quality of the squad which impacts the product on the field.

TR, Ospreys will still get the same DC's next year, they will still get the same European payments next year, and they will still get the same funding from the WRU next year even though they have gone from top 4 to bottom 4. 

It does not matter how they do, they will never get reprimanded by anybody as they do not answer to anybody and they will never have to worry about getting relegated. All four regions could finish in the bottom 4 places of the league every year and bomb out of Europe, and nothing will change for them, that is my gripe.

The only thing they will ever have to worry about is fans not turning out anymore because they have had enough.


That is what is happening with the two Italian teams in the league, it does not matter if they finish in the bottom two places this year, they will still be here next season, and they will still be in Europe, and they will still get their same funding and money from Europe, so where is the incentive for improvement ?

Why should Ospreys be punished for not finishing within the top 4? I don't rate their coaches and some of their players, but I'm pretty sure they did all that was within their capabilities when it came to competing.

After some time watching rugby under this structure, I think we should stop giving a guaranteed place in the top tier to the Italians. I was all for it at first as I had hoped Treviso would continue to improve - they haven't. I think there also needs to be a Pro12 tier 2 (I know that's been discussed elsewhere). It can include more Italian teams, and teams from Georgia, Russia, Ukraine, Germany - certainly not London Welsh or Scottish. It would spread the game and would certainly give FIR a kick up the backside. I only see an Italian team going up-and-down for some years though until an Italian team starts to move towards the top 6.

LordDowlais wrote:I'm not criticising any fans LP. Please stop making this personal. 

What I cannot fathom is, you all reckon that you are not happy with the situation at Dragons, yet when I say something about them in the same vein then I am up for a good tar and feathering off the Dragons faithful on here.

All I am saying is, as long as the loyal fans keep turning out to support Dragons week in week out, then Dragons will have no incentive to improve.

You just don't have a good way of making a point without seeming like you have an agenda. That's your trouble. I ask you to back your "points" up and you can't.

I've heard a rumour Dragons board don't worry so much about season ticket holders and the like, as they can survive on TV money, just about. But that aside, that isn't what you are saying, as how do you know for a start whether loyal fans are attending next season?

Looks like things are looking up for Italy already; Italy U18 defeated Ireland U18 22-17 at the Five Nations Festival in Wales

Well another set of wallopings for the two Italian sides this weekend and now Jonathan Davies is sticking it to them:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

I must say I watched this last night and thought he was wrong to say it publicly like that, but what he was saying was correct.