Zebre/Treviso -going from bad to worse

First topic message reminder :

Last night, the two Italian clubs shipped over a hundred points to the 3rd or 4th best Irish province and the 3rd best Welsh team and it seems that as usual they will fill the bottom two places of the pro12 at season end. Any hopes that the Italian teams are getting better are in tatters and it's arguable that if anything they're getting worse.

I know this has been discussed before but it has to reopen the issue of the Italians getting direct entry into the ERCC as a right no matter how bad they are. By now teams from the other countries hope against hope that they get the Italian team in their group - 10 points and a best runner-up slot guaranteed while other teams slog it out in groups of death.

I'm not saying drop the Italian guaranteed slot completely but there must be some mechanism - maybe make the guaranteed slot conditional on finishing 9th or higher, I don't know the answer. But the current system that guarantees an Italian team an ERCC slot when they are nothing more than whipping boys is surely becoming untenable.

LordDowlais wrote:Logistics is a major issue within the Pro12, but that is one of the issues it has. Rubbish refs, lack of local interest, under achieving teams, no affiliation towards the teams involved.

IMO, the Welsh Prem is doing more to attract the interest of the Welsh public than any of the regions and the Pro12.

On Saturday, the weather was the worst I have seen it for months, yet there was still almost 5000 people there, one off novelty or not. This will be a fixture next season, so that could be 5000 people who will not be supporting "their" region, add to the mix other valley fixtures then these home and away crowds added together because it is not a bind to travel around to watch the games will be to the detriment of the regions.

Supposition again. Please prove how the Welsh Prem is doing more to attract the interests. Are the average attendances comparable? One off games (in a different comp), do not prove more interest in the Welsh Prem.

LordDowlais wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

I was one of those 4800 people, and I was thinking the exact same thing, if this is what we can expect in the Welsh Prem next year, then the regions and the Pro12 will die a slow death in Wales.

Please tell me how they're going to die a slow death.

Because the regions are struggling for support as it is, there will be more people watching the Welsh prem than ever next season. The under performing, under achieving regions will have to seriously up their games from next season onwards.

No they won't. There's nobody to replace them.

The regions will lose out on support to the teams in the Welsh prem. Even if the average gate goes down to 2000 per game, that will be 2000 people who will not be supporting the regions.

2000 per game is not beyond the realms of fantasy for a derby game in the Welsh prem.

How did this topic manage to turn into a discussion about the Welsh regions yet again?

The Pro12 is not getting anymore of a spectacle for the Welsh public, having very poor Italian teams in it does not help.

From a Welsh point of view the Pro12 is on it's last legs, the only interest the Welsh have in the Pro12 is when the Welsh teams play each other, attendances reflect this.

That is why the regions are being discussed in it. It's a shame really as the Pro12 had/has massive potential, but urine poor refs, crappy kick off times and bad logistics has ruined the league.

Adding the Italians was a novel idea, but we must just admit defeat and cut them lose and hope we can salvage what is left of this league.

RiscaGame wrote:

Fanster wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

Where's the comparison? One was a Saturday game with away supporters included (in probably the biggest game for both teams thus far), the other was on Easter Sunday when other people probably had other commitments and had little travelling support. Averages over the season probably aren't close and for our biggest game, we drew 8,500.

All Saturday's decent attendance really proved was there is interest in one off games there.

Really? Your blaming no away support? Isn't that the entire issue with the pro 12, away support is awfull? Hence why having no away support isn't an argument for have 400 people more than an amateur version of itself down the road 24 hours after.

I'm not claiming Ponty's support better than the Dragons, I also doubt Pontypridd v Merthyr (of division 1 fame) in the SWALEC cup was Pontypridds biggest game of the seson, a bit of a novelty derby maybe. Top tier rugby in a top tier division against international playing standards vs SWALEC cup 3rd in prem v Division 1 highfliers should be no comparison whatsoever, however there is a clear comparison in attendance figures for some reason.

Ok, so their biggest game (Cardiff home) pulled 3k. Travelling support is a factor. If you're not claiming that, then why mention the two gates? Do you want to play average attendances, if you're saying there is a comparison? I'm willing to add them up in work tomorrow for you. Oh and it's Championship fame for Merthyr (at the moment), not division 1.

If Cardiff are their bigget game why was this weekends gates much bigger? Of course this weekends gates are comparible, they were very similar, on the same weekend, with a lot of variables comparible.

If you disagree they can be compared this weekend then your a touch silly, or blind!

LordDowlais wrote:Logistics is a major issue within the Pro12, but that is one of the issues it has. Rubbish refs, lack of local interest, under achieving teams, no affiliation towards the teams involved.

.

rubbish refs?  Wrong as has been shown time and time again - we have a similar standard to any other league

Lack of local interest - again rubbish.  Glasgow sell out most games, most teams have increasing gates year on year
Under achieving teams?  Only a couple of them - until this year pro12 have been over represented in the top levels of european rugby
No affiliation to teams - again pure piffle.  Maybe for some welsh teams but not for the rest

LD - we know you hate the pro 12 for some odd reason but stop thinking that everyone shares your views - as we do not knowing they are simply not based in fact

Fanster wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

Fanster wrote:

RiscaGame wrote:

Fanster wrote:

TJ wrote:maybe should be "another mediocre team"


the reason the London Welsh owner wants this is he wants a parachute to prevent his team being relegated.  They would not be an asset to the pro 12. they would not be eligible for Europe from the pro 12 Its a complete nonsense

I actually agree, they want under the WRU in order to qualify for those juicy payments and possibly champions cup entry which they'd never get in the Aviva. I personally would let them transfer to the Welsh prem and see how they go, Pontypridd, Merthyr, RGC are all making great steps, 4800 people attended on the weekend, compared to the 5200 at the Dragons...

Where's the comparison? One was a Saturday game with away supporters included (in probably the biggest game for both teams thus far), the other was on Easter Sunday when other people probably had other commitments and had little travelling support. Averages over the season probably aren't close and for our biggest game, we drew 8,500.

All Saturday's decent attendance really proved was there is interest in one off games there.

Really? Your blaming no away support? Isn't that the entire issue with the pro 12, away support is awfull? Hence why having no away support isn't an argument for have 400 people more than an amateur version of itself down the road 24 hours after.

I'm not claiming Ponty's support better than the Dragons, I also doubt Pontypridd v Merthyr (of division 1 fame) in the SWALEC cup was Pontypridds biggest game of the seson, a bit of a novelty derby maybe. Top tier rugby in a top tier division against international playing standards vs SWALEC cup 3rd in prem v Division 1 highfliers should be no comparison whatsoever, however there is a clear comparison in attendance figures for some reason.

Ok, so their biggest game (Cardiff home) pulled 3k. Travelling support is a factor. If you're not claiming that, then why mention the two gates? Do you want to play average attendances, if you're saying there is a comparison? I'm willing to add them up in work tomorrow for you. Oh and it's Championship fame for Merthyr (at the moment), not division 1.

If Cardiff are their bigget game why was this weekends gates much bigger? Of course this weekends gates are comparible, they were very similar, on the same weekend, with a lot of variables comparible.

If you disagree they can be compared this weekend then your a touch silly, or blind!

I've already answered how they aren't comparable, so neither silly nor blind. It was in my first post on this topic.

You stated this weekend wasn't the biggest game, so if it wasn't then it's fair to assume the Cardiff game would be. So seeing as I'm neither silly, nor blind I can easily notice you disputing that the game this weekend was their biggest game, so I offered you the alternative.

LordDowlais wrote:The Pro12 is not getting anymore of a spectacle for the Welsh public, having very poor Italian teams in it does not help.

From a Welsh point of view the Pro12 is on it's last legs, the only interest the Welsh have in the Pro12 is when the Welsh teams play each other, attendances reflect this.

That is why the regions are being discussed in it. It's a shame really as the Pro12 had/has massive potential, but urine poor refs, crappy kick off times and bad logistics has ruined the league.

Adding the Italians was a novel idea, but we must just admit defeat and cut them lose and hope we can salvage what is left of this league.

Maybe we would be better cutting the welsh if as you keep on claiming the welsh have no interest in the pro 12 - and recruit some teams who actually want to be in the league. Its not the pro 12 that is on its last legs. Its just doing fine. Its that for some strange reason an part of the welsh support want to blame everyone but themselves for their poor showing in the league.

Unlike you I want to expand the reach of european rugby. The italians participation in top ranked competition is essential for them. Ditching them from the pro 12 will not help at all. Please note dragons are on a par with Zebre this year and might well finish below them. So by your logic Dragons should be ditched as well

TJ, I do not hate the Pro12, in fact I do not "hate" anything. Please stop being so precious just because I see things differently to you. For my liking I would be happy for the Welsh to go it alone, I would much rather we done our own thing, but that ship had sailed. We have what we have, so now we must make it better.

As for the ref jibe, did you not watch Glasgow v Ulster on the weekend ? There were few thousand people at that game who would agree with me and not you when it comes to the referees in our league.

Also please do not get me started on our four regions, they are beyond criticism if you listen to the Welsh rugby fans on here.

LordDowlais wrote:TJ, I do not hate the Pro12, in fact I do not "hate" anything. Please stop being so previous just because I see things differently to you. For my liking I would be happy for the Welsh to go it alone, I would much rather we done our own thing, but that ship had sailed. We have what we have, so now we must make it better.

As for the ref jibe, did you not watch Glasgow v Ulster on the weekend ? There were few thousand people still that game who would agree with me and not you when it comes to the referees in our league.

Also please do not get me started on our four regions, they are beyond criticism if you listen to the Welsh rugby fans on here.

Please provide evidence of Welsh rugby fans on here not accepting criticism. I've seen many criticise their own teams. Is this just more posting without fact again?

Well you posting what you have to moan about what I have typed makes my point.

LD - you continually moan about the pro 12. As for reffing - they all have good and bad games and make mistakes - but ours are no worse than other leagues.

YOu continually invent spurious "flaws" in the pro 12. You keep on claiming wales should join the AP

LordDowlais wrote:Well you posting what you have to moan about what I have typed makes my point.

Refereeing performance in Rugby Union is bad across the board. It is an extremely difficult game to properly officiate and there will always be mistakes. The Six Nations wasn't much better than anything at Pro 12 level.

LD - what standard are you referring to here?

Indeed - and in the WC mistakes where made. The only way to improve things IMO is to have 5 officials on the field not 3

LD - given the bottom of the table looks like this should the Dragons be kicked out as well? Its hard to see them as any better
10
Dragons 18 4 0 14 283 357 9 25
11 Zebre 17 4 0 13 220 507 3 19
12 Treviso 18 2 0 16 253 458 8 16

Dowlais' feelings towards the Dragons are well known.

If there was somebody to replace them, then yes they should be out. That's the trouble though, there's nobody. Not even London Welsh

Then once those 3 have gone then we drop the lowest teams the next year? there will allways be teams at the bottom of the league

I am not in favour of the Pro12 dropping down to 10 teams. It has been a much better competition with 12 than it was before, even with the variability in quality of the Italian teams.

10 teams would mean less games, smaller squads and less income. It would also make the season more disjointed with more gaps than there are now.

Less games and smaller squads would hit Scotland hard, we struggle with depth as it is. We need more professional players not less.

Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

Yeeaaaaahhhhhh

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

This is a genuine query for Welsh fans - and others if they wish to contribute.

Rather than seeking to jettison the two Italian teams who need regular, competitive league rugby each season, would it be better for the WRU to only have two regions in the PRO12 and concentrate their resources - financial and player - in those two - namely Scarlets and Ospreys.   Dragons and Cardiff migrate to or meld into the Welsh Premiership.

Possibly, London Scottish and London Welsh to join instead, or even London Irish since they look headed for the drop this season.

On and in keeping with the overall topic discussion - if it remains PRO12, keep the Italian teams but qualification for the European Cup should be Top 7 regardless of who finishes where. The automatic country allocation has to go.

BigGee wrote:I am not in favour of the Pro12 dropping down to 10 teams. It has been a much better competition with 12 than it was before, even with the variability in quality of the Italian teams.

10 teams would mean less games, smaller squads and less income. It would also make the season more disjointed with more gaps than there are now.

Less games and smaller squads would hit Scotland hard, we struggle with depth as it is. We need more professional players not less.

Completely agree with that, actually i would like a pro 14 in the future with LW and LS joining in.

Pot Hale wrote:This is a genuine query for Welsh fans - and others if they wish to contribute.

Rather than seeking to jettison the two Italian teams who need regular, competitive league rugby each season, would it be better for the WRU to only have two regions in the PRO12 and concentrate their resources - financial and player - in those two - namely Scarlets and Ospreys.   Dragons and Cardiff migrate to or meld into the Welsh Premiership.

Possibly, London Scottish and London Welsh to join instead, or even London Irish since they look headed for the drop this season.

On and in keeping with the overall topic discussion - if it remains PRO12, keep the Italian teams but qualification for the European Cup should be Top 7 regardless of who finishes where.   The automatic country allocation has to go.

Without the four taking part in the existing competitions, the WRU have buttons to invest. Cardiff and Newport are two 9f the few places in Wales that actually attract investment and have a relative concentration of paying customers. Downgrading either would be to the detriment of pro rugby in Wales.

Two team structures don't work. The Italians belong in the French pyramid.

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster, you will not get a decent debate with our resident Dragons fans on here when it comes to the Pro12, they are always bricking it when this subject is raised as they know if any region was to be axed to make room for another it would be Dragons. Que risca and stone motif to start insulting me.

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

Grass or no grass, facts are, there were 4800 people watching a game in Pontypridd Saturday in monsoon weather, that we're not watching the regions.

Kingshu wrote:...SRU do not get this funding for a year?

The FIR need the money from the RCC to develop the game, just as the WRU, SRU, and IRFU do...

Were you not aware that money from the European games is not based on what competition you're in? That was the whole issue.

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster, you will not get a decent debate with our resident Dragons fans on here when it comes to the Pro12, they are always bricking it when this subject is raised as they know if any region was to be axed to make room for another it would be Dragons. Que risca and stone motif to start insulting me.

Wrong. Nobody is bricking it because there are very real reason why none of of the current four pro entities in Wales can ever be replaced or axed. Even Roger Lewis got the message on this one eventually - here's hoping you do this time too.

HammerofThunor wrote:

Kingshu wrote:...SRU do not get this funding for a year?

The FIR need the money from the RCC to develop the game, just as the WRU, SRU, and IRFU do...

Were you not aware that money from the European games is not based on what competition you're in?  That was the whole issue.

Yes, he is right, the four Welsh regions all get the same money for competing in Europe, but I guess the prize money would be more in the top tier competition.

Which again is beggars belief to what the feck the two Italian teams are doing with that money.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

Grass or no grass, facts are, there were 4800 people watching a game in Pontypridd Saturday in monsoon weather, that we're not watching the regions.

I didn't question it was fact, I questioned it's relevance.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster, you will not get a decent debate with our resident Dragons fans on here when it comes to the Pro12, they are always bricking it when this subject is raised as they know if any region was to be axed to make room for another it would be Dragons. Que risca and stone motif to start insulting me.

Wrong. Nobody is bricking it because there are very real reason why none of of the current four pro entities in Wales can ever be replaced or axed. Even Roger Lewis got the message on this one eventually - here's hoping you do this time too.

That is why the regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty like you will always support under achievement.

Just as t is for the two Italian teams, there is no threat to them, they can keep finishing bottom without bring reprimanded.

It is beyond frustrating.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

Grass or no grass, facts are, there were 4800 people watching a game in Pontypridd Saturday in monsoon weather, that we're not watching the regions.

I didn't question it was fact, I questioned it's relevance.

It is all too relevant as there shows that there are almost 5000 people in Cardiff Blues region who would rather watch other teams than the mighty Cardiff Blues.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster, you will not get a decent debate with our resident Dragons fans on here when it comes to the Pro12, they are always bricking it when this subject is raised as they know if any region was to be axed to make room for another it would be Dragons. Que risca and stone motif to start insulting me.

Wrong. Nobody is bricking it because there are very real reason why none of of the current four pro entities in Wales can ever be replaced or axed. Even Roger Lewis got the message on this one eventually - here's hoping you do this time too.

That is why the regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty like you will always support under achievement.

Just as t is for the two Italian teams, there is no threat to them, they can keep finishing bottom without bring reprimanded.

It is beyond frustrating.

Dragons are the worst funded professional entity in GB and Ireland by some margin. Their own union tried to starve them into existence over he last half a decade. Only a complete moron would suggest they are underachieving although a brief search of my recent posts would see that my view is that the Dragons board are also culpable for their downward spiral.

The difference is I also understand the reasons financial and otherwise why even a competent board would be hamstrung, and also have have a realistic expectation of what can be achieved.

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

Grass or no grass, facts are, there were 4800 people watching a game in Pontypridd Saturday in monsoon weather, that we're not watching the regions.

I didn't question it was fact, I questioned it's relevance.

It is all too relevant as there shows that there are almost 5000 people in Cardiff Blues region who would rather watch other teams than the mighty Cardiff Blues.

It is not relevant in the slightest as crowds do not a pro rugby team finance; but as you will no doubt refuse to process this as usual let's just note that there will be 60,000 people choosing to watch a one-off game in Cardiff next month instead of watching Ponty and Merthyr and see if that makes it past your stupidity barrier.

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

Fanster, you will not get a decent debate with our resident Dragons fans on here when it comes to the Pro12, they are always bricking it when this subject is raised as they know if any region was to be axed to make room for another it would be Dragons. Que risca and stone motif to start insulting me.

Wrong. Nobody is bricking it because there are very real reason why none of of the current four pro entities in Wales can ever be replaced or axed. Even Roger Lewis got the message on this one eventually - here's hoping you do this time too.

That is why the regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty like you will always support under achievement.

Just as t is for the two Italian teams, there is no threat to them, they can keep finishing bottom without bring reprimanded.

It is beyond frustrating.

Dragons are the worst funded professional entity in GB and Ireland by some margin. Their own union tried to starve them into existence over he last half a decade. Only a complete moron would suggest they are underachieving although a brief search of my recent posts would see that my view is that the Dragons board are also culpable for their downward spiral.

The difference is I also understand the reasons financial and otherwise why even a competent board would be hamstrung, and also have have a realistic expectation of what can be achieved.

Then how would you explain the other three regions at least achieving something since their inception even though they have had to face the same problems that Dragons have ?

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:

Stone Motif wrote:

Fanster wrote:Not sure criticism of LT here is fair,

He isn't slating the Pro 12 as an entity, his view is squarely contextualised within the Welsh regions. He makes some decent points.

One being Pontypridds turnout this weekend being 200 and 400 less than Cardiff and Newport respectively.

What the hell does that have to do with anything?

That slating 2 teams ravaged by the PRL power grab disruption is hardly fair, when semi pro teams have nearly matched 2 Welsh pro teams for gates.

If LD's view is that the Welsh pro teams are struggling to excite fans, like the Italians, then there are examples.

If you think there is anything remotely comparable between Ponty and Merthyr playing hunt the grass blade and the context Cardiff and Newport are operating in you're as big a chump as Lord Doh-lais.

Grass or no grass, facts are, there were 4800 people watching a game in Pontypridd Saturday in monsoon weather, that we're not watching the regions.

I didn't question it was fact, I questioned it's relevance.

It is all too relevant as there shows that there are almost 5000 people in Cardiff Blues region who would rather watch other teams than the mighty Cardiff Blues.

It is not relevant in the slightest as crowds do not a pro rugby team finance; but as you will no doubt refuse to process this as usual let's just note that there will be 60,000 people choosing to watch a one-off game in Cardiff next month instead of watching Ponty and Merthyr and see if that makes it past your stupidity barrier.

There will be more than one game that day.

I feel I must explain something to the non Welsh fans on this thread, even tho it's a thread about Italian clubs. Pontypridd and Merthyr met on Saturday in a Welsh cup match. It was a derby between two rival valleys teams, both who play in different divisions in the Welsh league. A one off cup match between two valleys rivals about 20 miles apart on a Saturday. We all know how these derbies go, the attendance is always inflated no matter the sport.
While I agree with LD that the regions attendances leave much to be desired, and the fact that Cardiff played on Friday and The Dragons played on Sunday against teams from different countries, on an Easterr weekend skews the attendance figures, as the travelling fans probably numbered in the tens.

If I was living in Cardiff I would have watched them on Friday and been sorely tempted to watch the cup match on Saturday. It is all perspective.

I am talking about the Pro12 and the fact that the Italian teams are making it worse.

Aye LD, there's no argument from me with what you're saying, they are a poor draw for fans. People have a choice on which game to spend their money on if they don't have a season ticket, I would rather spend my cash watching Cardiff v Scarlets or Ulster, or something. To go watch an Italian club is hardly a crowd puller unfortunately. Unless I was taking my grandson I would want to take him to see a whipping (which is not guaranteed these days),like on Friday v Treviso, for a rugby fan, the rival Celtic clubs would be a better draw, or a regional Derby..
That's part of the problem with having Italian clubs in our league, they are not a crowd puller for the average fan, who has yo cherry pick games during a season.

LordDowlais wrote:I am talking about the Pro12 and the fact that the Italian teams are making it worse.

Except you aren't. You're regurgitating the same uninformed guff about the Dragons that you usually do. As soon as you state things like Dragons are the worst pro team in UK and Ireland, it's not about the Italians. For a start, there are pro teams below the English Premiership. Just have a think about your posts before you hit send, as that's why people get frustrated with you when you just transmit and won't take discussion. I'm sure not many share your view that you can't debate with Dragons supporters on here either. More likely is people will say that they can't debate with you, due to your pigheadedness (which apparently was going to change).

Andy here comes risca to insult me, the world is right again.

Where's the insult? You're hiding behind the fact you can't answer my points, much like when you used to call me a troll. You're proving yourself to be quite the debater.

How are Dragons the worst pro team in UK and Ireland?

How can't you debate with NGD supporters on here?

Just because people don't roll over and accept what you're saying as gospel, doesn't mean you can't debate with them.

Blueschief wrote:Aye LD, there's no argument from me with what you're saying, they are a poor draw for fans. People have a choice on which game to spend their money on if they don't have a season ticket, I would rather spend my cash watching Cardiff v Scarlets or Ulster, or something. To go watch an Italian club is hardly a crowd puller unfortunately. Unless I was taking my grandson I would want to take him to see a whipping (which is not guaranteed these days),like on Friday v Treviso, for a rugby fan, the rival Celtic clubs would be a better draw, or a regional Derby..
That's part of the problem with having Italian clubs in our league, they are not a crowd puller for the average fan, who has yo cherry pick games during a season.

If the Italian teams did become better I could see them being as good a draw as say Edinburgh, when Treviso finished 8th they were decent to watch. Connacht weren't much of a draw a few years ago and I'm guessing they must be pretty good to see now, the style of rugby (scores lots and concede lots of tries makes them good to watch and like last week they can also change it up to edge out a slug fest)

I hope the FIR do spring extra funds and allow more NIQ players and hopefully they could do a Connacht in a few years, but what are the chances of that?

Can't argue with that Kingshu, I hope they will sort themselves out, it can only be good for the Pro 12. Maybe one Italian team, condensed from the two clubs, and A.N. Other to take the other slot, if things have to change.

Edit: Thinking about it, a combined Treviso/Zebra wouldn't half be a decent side to take on.

I think Treviso will be better next season. If it wasn't for Zebre's run in, they would probably finish tenth, because I'm fairly certain they'll beat NGD in the last game. I don't think they can make up six points though, as NGD at least are picking up LBPs at the minute (on the whole).

Dowlais, the reason Dragons fans have a problem with you is that you post things like this:

LordDowlais wrote:The regions can always under achieve and always get away with it. No matter how rubbish they are, they will never have to do anything about it. It is a shame, as without reprisal they have no reason to improve.

Dragons are probably the worst professional rugby team in GB and Ireland, yet there is no reasons for them to improve as they will never get relegated, always get the same funding from the WRU and Europe, and fans with blind loyalty... will always support under achievement.

You really do seem to think that the Dragons, or the Italians for that matter, don't want to improve, that they're happy propping up the table, that the players and coaches don't care about winning games. It's totally bogus. These are proud players. They have plenty of incentive to improve, not least so that they don't have the humiliation of losing all the time. No sportsman on earth, amateur or professional, is happy to lose.