Aviva Premiership - Round 19

First topic message reminder :

Bath lose heavily to Sarries to start the weekend, with three players looking at season ending bans. Anthony Watson may get a short enough ban for his Red Card to be back for round 22, b ut will be sweating on the decision and whether it affects England's tour.

Kelly Brown and David Wilson seem sure to be cited for contact in or around the eyes 9at the same maul0 and will get a ban similar to Ashton.


Remaining games:

Sat 2nd Apr 16
15:00 Exeter Chiefs v Worcester Warriors Sandy Park
15:00 Harlequins v Newcastle Falcons Twickenham Stoop
15:00 London Irish v Sale Sharks Madejski Stadium
15:15 Leicester Tigers v Gloucester Rugby Welford Road BT Sport Preview


Sun 3rd Apr 16
15:00 Wasps v Northampton Saints Ricoh Arena BT Sport

Hell of a game at Welford Road. Tigers' defence is a worry, but that backline is excellent when things are working. Gloucester looked great when their offloading game was rolling, but couldn't control territory or possession for long enough in the 2nd half.

Will Evans with a very good debut at 7. Looks a prospect.

nathan wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

nathan wrote:I'm fairly sure you can't get a player in a headlock

Of course you can Nathan, stop being so precious!

Just catching you and Geordie up, I feel like I behind in my ref moaning

And I haven't even started yet

GeordieFalcon wrote:I honestly think the quality of refereeing in the Prem is atrocious. And I don't think that's exaggerating.

No atrocious would be a step up ...

GeordieFalcon wrote:Sgt, ive said it a few times...I absolutely see Irish beating us.

Then that'll be us and the noisy neighbours United both going down. They lost to Norwich so they're definitely down.

Doubt it - and even then I think you'll be OK ...

So now it's my turn to moan ...

Irish made things hard for themselves by missing 8 points from simple kicks, including a point blank conversion that hit the post, but some shocking non decisions from the officials at key points cost LI dear.  Massive forward pass from Sale just outside their 22 ignored (just after LI had a try denied by a forward pass call - with no reference to the TMO) and ultimately lead to Sale's first try (including questionable conversion based on player/crowd reaction) plus a blatant penalty for playing the ball when lying on the ground also ignored when Irish were just a point behind and attacking just outside the Sale 22 - again ultimately this lead to another Sale try.  After that Irish were playing catchup and threw an intercepted pass for game over and off to the championship.

Every week, more ref bashing.

There's always some reason to blame the ref

As I said before - everyone has to have a hobby ...

1) I think refereeing is harder than it has ever been
2) So many games on TV with so many cameras highlights mistakes in a way never done before

but

3) The quality of reffing does seem on the low side


but but


4) We could have the Pro12 refs instead, and really know what poor is like

Our ref was poor today, but as fat as I recall he didn't miss 2 kicks directly in front of the sticks, knock on when close to the opposition try line a number of times, or miss at least a dozen tackles in the second half. That was our players, and that is why we lost. We just were not good enough.

The couple of times we upped the tempo and shifted the ball out of the contact, we scored two cracking tries, but we didn't do it anywhere near enough across the 80 minutes.

Yep as I said Irish made it hard for themselves but I still struggle with the ref not seeing a player lying on the ground on the wrong side of a ruck knocking the ball back right in front of him, or the AR not seeing it, when it sounded like everyone else in the stadium saw it as one example ... I know it's a tough job but that was one of the easiest penalties you're likely to see.  That and the missed forward pass by Cips were both followed by Sale tries instead of a penalty to Irish in a kickable position and an attacking scrum in the Sale half respectively.  I think Irish may have been good enough to beat Sale today, but not good enough to beat Sale whilst overcoming bad decisions/misses by the officials.  Of course we'll never know.

C'mon Heaf, you got beat by 15 points. That's more than reffing. I tuned into your game now and again and you were making numerous basic errors, pretty much like we are currently.

You tend not to get 50/50's in our position but you can't consistently blame poor reffing for your team being awful, it's the same with us.

Sh*t or bust for us up your place in a fortnight's time Pooly. The fat lady has warmed up and us waiting in the wings to make her entrance. We lose and that's her moment. Huge pressure match.

maverickmak wrote:Hell of a game at Welford Road. Tigers' defence is a worry, but that backline is excellent when things are working. Gloucester looked great when their offloading game was rolling, but couldn't control territory or possession for long enough in the 2nd half.

Will Evans with a very good debut at 7. Looks a prospect.

Good option to bring in some youthful mobility in the back row as opposed to our normal philosophy of bigger and bigger. The balance of the backrow was so much better when we had two open sides in the backrow. Hopefully we'll see more of Evans combining with BOC and McCaffery so Slater can move to lock where he's best.

Defensive shape and line speed was bloody awful from Tigers. Some good hits but we were often in the wrong position so they were wasted.

I do love the Manu/Betham midfield. Really got the attacking X factor in that combination. Just need Williams to refind his kicking form.

Clearly forward. How can a ref not see a forward pass from a stationary man with a line to guide him?

Come on Wasps.

Win here and deny Saints a LBP and Tigers go 4 points ahead of them.

nervy times.

It's a good match but the touted match-ups, like Lawes vs Launcbury and North vs Wade, haven't really happened.

Welly wrote: Come on Wasps.

Win here and deny Saints a LBP and Tigers go 4 points ahead of them.

nervy times.

Strangely I half wanted Saints to win, so we were forced to go to the Gardens and play well

TBF we still.

IF we go into Saints game as
Tigers 55
Saints 51

And we win and Saints get LBP (could happen)

Then it will be
Tigers 59
Saints 52

That would leave Tigers needing 3 points in 2 games to secure the Playoff spot.

Just that now even if we do lose
Would leave it
Tigers 55/56
Saints 55/56

With Tigers having the advantage of having more wins.

Would mean we have to go toe to toe with Saints who have
Bath (H)
Glous (A)

Tigers can lose vs Saints and it's still in their hands.

Glad to see Wasps stuff Saints. A horrible team to watch. Take away their maul and they look awful

Clearly didn't watch last week.

Horribles a bit harsh. They've been out of form and so relied on their set piece for most of their points. When they got a better backline out on the pitch they looked pretty dangerous.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:C'mon Heaf, you got beat by 15 points. That's more than reffing. I tuned into your game now and again and you were making numerous basic errors, pretty much like we are currently.

You tend not to get 50/50's in our position but you can't consistently blame poor reffing for your team being awful, it's the same with us.

Yes but Sale weren't great either also dropping the ball etc ... and as I pointed out the above two errors by the officials (also mentioned by the coach incidentally, who I've never heard make a comment about the officials before) were followed by Sale tries - that's 14 points ... and one of those also denied Irish a potential kick at goal (although no guarantee Tonks would have got it) ... plus their last try was an intercept with Irish forcing it playing catch-up.  The final score doesn't really show the true picture and I'm not denying Irish made a lot of basic errors but Sale were no better really and that was a game Irish certainly could have won.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Sh*t or bust for us up your place in a fortnight's time Pooly.  The fat lady has warmed up and us waiting in the wings to make her entrance.  We lose and that's her moment.  Huge pressure match.

And we have to play a match next week we could really do without - it's quite bizarre that it actually feels like more bad luck that we qualified for the quarter-finals.  

I also think Falcons will probably beat Sale at home as they really didn't look that clever yesterday despite what the scoreline might suggest.

yappysnap wrote:Horribles a bit harsh. They've been out of form and so relied on their set piece for most of their points. When they got a better backline out on the pitch they looked pretty dangerous.

Thanks mate. I agree Saints are out of form and lacking consistency. Really since the mid-point of last season. Something is clearly not working. And, frankly, Saints this season are a mediocre team. With a record of 10 up and 9 down, we are, unfortunately, what our record says we are. Losses to the bottom three teams sealed our season. That simply cannot be done and still expect anything good.

Manu was excellent, if he can sustain that form at 12 and stay fit then I am sure Jones will start him at 12 with Farrell shifting to 10.

I think the most promising thing from Manu was his passing/offloading, great job of keeping the defence honest.

Leicester-Gloucester - very entertaining game. Shame for Gloucester but they just didn't create enough in the 2nd half. Still don't think Leicester have the right balance in the pack but the backline looks to be shaping nicely. Certainly in the centres anyhow.

Don't particularly rate Thompstone though - thought he butchered two potential try scoring opportunities, not a particularly big threat.

Thompstone been playing very well this season but had a bad day on sat

Was Manu at 12 or 13?

12 Betham 13

Manu?

Manu at 12.

Unlike the other games this season when Manu has worn 12, but the centres have been interchangeable, this time Manu was most definitely playing IC.

Interesting, glad he played well there then.

Heaf wrote:

Ozzy3213 wrote:Sh*t or bust for us up your place in a fortnight's time Pooly.  The fat lady has warmed up and us waiting in the wings to make her entrance.  We lose and that's her moment.  Huge pressure match.

And we have to play a match next week we could really do without - it's quite bizarre that it actually feels like more bad luck that we qualified for the quarter-finals.  

I also think Falcons will probably beat Sale at home as they really didn't look that clever yesterday despite what the scoreline might suggest.

Bar a ten minute spell when we scored a few tries as Quins switched off...we didn't look anything clever either that suggests we would beat Sale.

Both Wilson and Kruis cited now (Kruis for biting)

Man that was a bit of a dirty game.

What's the ban like for biting usually? Can't imagine it's short if he's found guilty...

LondonTiger wrote:Unlike the other games this season when Manu has worn 12, but the centres have been interchangeable, this time Manu was most definitely playing IC.

When Toomua comes in next season, fitness permitting I guess Manu will play 13 won't he? So it makes this 12 business a bit pointless.

yappysnap wrote:Man that was a bit of a dirty game.

What's the ban like for biting usually? Can't imagine it's short if he's found guilty...

12 weeks entry level. Thing is it was the same coming together for which Wilson has been cited - so which came first?

yappysnap wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:Unlike the other games this season when Manu has worn 12, but the centres have been interchangeable, this time Manu was most definitely playing IC.

When Toomua comes in next season, fitness permitting I guess Manu will play 13 won't he? So it makes this 12 business a bit pointless.

Not really should improve his all round game more playing 12 now.

I think the influence of Mauger has been clearly evident on the likes of Manu and Smith this season. The deft offloads and accurate miss passes being brought out by those two were definitely not options in the arsenal during previous seasons.

lostinwales wrote:Both Wilson and Kruis cited now (Kruis for biting)

As Yappy said, what was going on in that game? Did anyone see the incidents? I don't recall, do either guy have any prior record of suspensions?

Kruis was banned for a tip tackle last season - ban was reduced for good behaviour and ended one day before 6Ns started. Not sure about Wilson.

As a game it was on the edge - but Sarries always play that way, while Bath are a team unable to comprehend why they are struggling, and such teams often come out swinging.

However it only really flared up twice - first just after Watson's mistimed challenge where some players got far too involved (looking at you Mr Ashton as someone who rushed in fists up) and that maul where it seems Wilson was clawing at Kruis face, was bitten then moved his hand upwards towards the eyes.

LondonTiger wrote:Kruis was banned for a tip tackle last season - ban was reduced for good behaviour and ended one day before 6Ns started. Not sure about Wilson.

As a game it was on the edge - but Sarries always play that way, while Bath are a team unable to comprehend why they are struggling, and such teams often come out swinging.

However it only really flared up twice - first just after Watson's mistimed challenge where some players got far too involved (looking at you Mr Ashton as someone who rushed in fists up) and that maul where it seems Wilson was clawing at Kruis face, was bitten then moved his hand upwards towards the eyes.

Was a bad tempered game by all accounts - Watson sent off, now this with Wilson V Kruis and apparently, some random fan found his way into the referee's room and had a go at them too.

beshocked wrote:Manu was excellent, if he can sustain that form at 12 and stay fit then I am sure Jones will start him at 12 with Farrell shifting to 10.

I think the most promising thing from Manu was his passing/offloading, great job of keeping the defence honest.

Leicester-Gloucester - very entertaining game. Shame for Gloucester but they just didn't create enough in the 2nd half. Still don't think Leicester have the right balance in the pack but the backline looks to be shaping nicely. Certainly in the centres anyhow.

Don't particularly rate Thompstone though - thought he butchered two potential try scoring opportunities, not a particularly big threat.

Had Tigers played well, that game should have been put away by half time. For the 2nd Q, Tigers were lethargic (the commentators made a point of saying it) and even lazy at times, just no urgency at the breakdown, no commitment and no bloody clue.

Symptomatic of their season, a better team would have put Tigers away. Tigers and Glaws are two sides seemingly desperate to emulate each other this season and the result bore that out. Its headless chicken stuff for too much of the time. Sad thing is, Tigers fans go into a match these days in hope of a win, rather than expectation.

Cockerill was fuming and rightly so, but you can't help think he's done what he can with this club and reached his ceiling. Maybe its time for him to go.

Too soon to say that Jimpy, we haven't even had a full season with this setup I think you may be jumping gun a little early.

Don't forget it was cockers who brought in mauger.

All coaches reach their sell by date, and need to keep refreshing things to avoid becoming stale. (ie Ferguson at United would change the assistant coach every 2 tears or so). Introduction of Mauger may have given Cockers a bit more time.

Elsewhere COS perhaps jumped from Quins just before his sellby-date was reached, and maybe Mallinder is reaching his at Saints.

Certainly adds to the problems some off these coaches are facing that not everyone plays by the rules. Cocker's matchday lineups notwithstanding.

Scottrf wrote:Certainly adds to the problems some off these coaches are facing that not everyone plays by the rules. Cocker's matchday lineups notwithstanding.

It is a touch amusing we have been fined for that - which may then put us over the salary cap and incur another fine - when others................

A fine shouldn't add to salary calculations?

Scottrf wrote:A fine shouldn't add to salary calculations?

My understanding is that any fine to do with "playing matters" as well as transfer fees count towards the cap. We will probably be sufficiently under though as we do tend to stretch the limits of the Injured allowances