England want to poach another Welsh player

First topic message reminder :

Well. if Gatland does not want to cap him, somebody else does, Thomas Young, the son of Welsh and British Lion Dai Young is ripping up trees for Wasps apparently, and England want in, they have already made enquiries and the ball is now in Thomas's court, who do you think he will end up pledging his allegiances to ? 


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-make-audacious-bid-entice-11168337


I don't think a country as small as Wales can afford to lose out on players myself.

mikey_dragon wrote:Jake Ball came through the Perth (western Australia) system.

Well, there we are then, Just Tomas Francis it is then.

Everybody else who plays for Wales is actually Welsh.

Faletau isn't Welsh

LordDowlais wrote:OK then if you want to be pedantic, the replace Welsh qualified with actually being Welsh.

Define 'actually being Welsh' and 'coming through the Welsh system' and we can have look.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Faletau isn't Welsh

Why don't you say that to his face and see how far you get.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Faletau isn't Welsh

He sounds Welsh, good enough for me.

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Faletau isn't Welsh

Why don't you say that to his face and see how far you get.

Are you suggesting Falatau would assault someone for saying he's not Welsh? Or does he just keep interrupting?

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:OK then if you want to be pedantic, the replace Welsh qualified with actually being Welsh.

Define 'actually being Welsh' and 'coming through the Welsh system' and we can have look.

I am basing my argument that Wales only have about one time serving qualified player in the squad.

The rest are either qualified or have lived here all/most their lives and have come through the system.

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Faletau isn't Welsh

Why don't you say that to his face and see how far you get.

Are you suggesting Falatau would assault someone for saying he's not Welsh? Or does he just keep interrupting?

I am suggesting that he would tell you otherwise.

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:OK then if you want to be pedantic, the replace Welsh qualified with actually being Welsh.

Define 'actually being Welsh' and 'coming through the Welsh system' and we can have look.

I am basing my argument that Wales only have about one time serving qualified player in the squad.

The rest are either qualified or have lived here all/most their lives and have come through the system.

Where does Francis lie as he has never lived in Wales

Tomas Francis maternal Gran was conceived on a wet weekend in Cardiff (are there any other weekends in Cardiff?)

True Raven wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:OK then if you want to be pedantic, the replace Welsh qualified with actually being Welsh.

Define 'actually being Welsh' and 'coming through the Welsh system' and we can have look.

I am basing my argument that Wales only have about one time serving qualified player in the squad.

The rest are either qualified or have lived here all/most their lives and have come through the system.

Where does Francis lie as he has never lived in Wales

He Welsh. He has a Welsh grand parent so he chose to represent Wales. Yes I know it is as bent as a butchers hook, but that qualifies him, and yes we poached him using the stupid grandparent rule as a loophole.

The only person we have in our squad who's only affiliation to Wales is that he has played here for three years is Jake Ball.

Jake Ball has a welsh grandparent and so does Aaron Jarvis so they fall in the same bracket as Francis

LondonTiger wrote:Tomas Francis maternal Gran was conceived on a wet weekend in Cardiff (are there any other weekends in Cardiff?)

She is from Abercraf actually, the same place Adam Jones was born. It must be a breading ground for tight head lineage.

True Raven wrote:Jake Ball has a welsh grandparent and so does Aaron Jarvis so they fall in the same bracket as Francis

Well feck me, I did not know that. Well that is that then. We have NO time serving players in the Welsh squad. We must be the only side nation in the NH to boast this.

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:Jake Ball has a welsh grandparent and so does Aaron Jarvis so they fall in the same bracket as Francis

Well feck me, I did not know that. Well that is that then. We have NO time serving players in the Welsh squad. We must be the only side nation in the NH to boast this.

Well no as Faletau is a time server, unless he has welsh grandparent too.....

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Faletau isn't Welsh

Why don't you say that to his face and see how far you get.

Are you suggesting Falatau would assault someone for saying he's not Welsh? Or does he just keep interrupting?

I am suggesting that he would tell you otherwise.

Well he'd be incorrect, he's not Welsh.

True Raven wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:Jake Ball has a welsh grandparent and so does Aaron Jarvis so they fall in the same bracket as Francis

Well feck me, I did not know that. Well that is that then. We have NO time serving players in the Welsh squad. We must be the only side nation in the NH to boast this.

Well no as Faletau is a time server, unless he has welsh grandparent too.....

I do not class people who have come through the whole Welsh system from childhood as "time serving".

I class players who come here in their adult life for three years then get capped as time servers.

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:Jake Ball has a welsh grandparent and so does Aaron Jarvis so they fall in the same bracket as Francis

Well feck me, I did not know that. Well that is that then. We have NO time serving players in the Welsh squad. We must be the only side nation in the NH to boast this.

Bar Faletau who qualifies under residency.

And then I read the rest. I should learn to read them all before pointing out mistakes!

Faletau has been living in Wales since he was six years old. He has played every level in the Welsh system and was produced through the Welsh system, I do not class that as time serving.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Faletau isn't Welsh

Why don't you say that to his face and see how far you get.

Are you suggesting Falatau would assault someone for saying he's not Welsh? Or does he just keep interrupting?

I am suggesting that he would tell you otherwise.

Well he'd be incorrect, he's not Welsh.

Who are you to decide ? Feck me, judge jury and executioner all at once.

Fair enough LD. Time serving being a pro who moves here like Hughes vs guys just living here ala Tuilagi?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough LD. Time serving being a pro who moves here like Hughes vs guys just living here ala Tuilagi?

Yes that.100%

I would say the Vunipola's were the same for England, except they came from Wales. 

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough LD. Time serving being a pro who moves here like Hughes vs guys just living here ala Tuilagi?

They are all time servers though as none has any link to that country, just some have lived here longer.

True Raven wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough LD. Time serving being a pro who moves here like Hughes vs guys just living here ala Tuilagi?

They are all time servers though as none has any link to that country, just some have lived here longer.

Would you say George North and Jonathan Davies are time serving players, even though they have lived in Wales for all but a few months of their lives as they were born in England ? I wouldn't.

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough LD. Time serving being a pro who moves here like Hughes vs guys just living here ala Tuilagi?

They are all time servers though as none has any link to that country, just some have lived here longer.

Would you say George North and Jonathan Davies are time serving players, even though they have lived in Wales for all but a few months of their lives as they were born in England ? I wouldn't.

No because they have at least one welsh parent which Faletau doesn't therefore wouldn't need to qualify on residency

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Faletau isn't Welsh

Why don't you say that to his face and see how far you get.

Are you suggesting Falatau would assault someone for saying he's not Welsh? Or does he just keep interrupting?

I am suggesting that he would tell you otherwise.

Well he'd be incorrect, he's not Welsh.

Who are you to decide ? Feck me, judge jury and executioner all at once.

It's pretty simple. He was born in Tonga to Tongan parents, there's zero Welsh in him.

He's Welsh qualified, I can see how's that's hard to mix up.

LordDowlais wrote:

True Raven wrote:Jake Ball has a welsh grandparent and so does Aaron Jarvis so they fall in the same bracket as Francis

Well feck me, I did not know that. Well that is that then. We have NO time serving players in the Welsh squad. We must be the only side nation in the NH to boast this.

England as well, until the AIs.

Does this bring us back to what the feck is a time server?

Seeing as when England played Wales last month, both teams started with No8s who had qualified by residency.

I read it as a term for a project player.

So Sam Burgess then

If you're a residency served player with zero attachment to that country, you've qualified by residency.

Project or not, these players wouldn't be playing for England, Ireland, Wales etc if the residency ruled were not in place.

Being in that country for 10/20 years does not change this fact.

Who is to decide ?
Andy Ward came to Ireland in his early twenties but not as a rugby player.
Played club rugby and married a local girl
Got spotted by Ulster and went on to play International rugby.
Still lives here aged 46

Does that make him a time server ??

Saying "Who's to decide?" Doesn't change anything.

You're from where you're born and raised. Also in these cases, the parents were foreign nationals.

You may feel Welsh, English etc but you're not.

So you feel authorized to decide ? - who made you judge and jury

Some people do move to another country and genuinely feel at home there and regard it as home.
To pretend otherwise is to bury you head in the sand.

Not everyone one, who moves from one country to another is a time server.

Is Hartley, to take another example, a time server?

Qualifies through parent.

I disagree with pooly though.

If I moved to Australia, then in ten years time it doesn't make me Australian. If there was no residency 'rule' that allows people who reside in a country to eventually play for that country then faletau wouldn't be playing for wales no matter when he arrived here. Therefore he is a time server in the qualification for wales

geoff999rugby wrote:So you feel authorized to decide ? - who made you judge and jury  

Some people do move to another country and genuinely feel at home there and regard it as home.
To pretend otherwise is to bury you head in the sand.

Not everyone one, who moves from one country to another is a time server.

Is Hartley, to take another example, a time server?

Hartley has an English mother so at least has a link to England.

There's no judge, it's just the way it is. I don't disagree that you mean feel at home and that you're part of that country. As Raven says though, you don't suddenly decide I'm now Australian because you've lived there for 10 years.

Faletau was born in Tonga to Tongan parents where he lived for a number of years. He's Tongan but qualifies via residency for Wales. Good luck to the lad, those are the rules. It doesn't make him not Tongan then.

I'm neither judge nor Jury, it's just the way it is. I really don't get what you can't understand.

If I visit Dublin for the weekend and feel at home, can I decide to be Irish?

Like Cliff Richard will always be Indian. Its a black and white matter. Except when it isn't.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Like Cliff Richard will always be Indian. Its a black and white matter. Except when it isn't.

To English parents as part of an English settlement.....so his parents were working over there. Similar case with with George North if I recall right. Born in England to Welsh parents? I doubt many would suggest he's not Welsh.

People seem to be getting confused with residency and having parents from that country, it's very different. I'm a resident in a Middle Eastern country, I'll always be English though.

At what point are you from that country though, lets for arguments sake say Faletau had a child with someone else from Tonga in Wales, what nationality would they be?

Hammersmith harrier wrote:At what point are you from that country though, lets for arguments sake say Faletau had a child with someone else from Tonga in Wales, what nationality would they be?

They'd be a hell of a lot more Welsh than what Faletau is. At least the child would have some sort of link to Wales!

Far too simplistic for me. But then 2 of my best mates, one born and bred inLeeds is Welsh, 1 born in Scotland lived here since 8 is Scottish and his sister lived here since 6 is English.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Far too simplistic for me. But then 2 of my best mates, one born and bred inLeeds is Welsh, 1 born in Scotland lived here since 8 is Scottish and his sister lived here since 6 is English.

I think it is pretty simple. Residency is different to being from a country, people seem to be getting confused.

All a good distraction from the poorly worded op though.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Far too simplistic for me. But then 2 of my best mates, one born and bred inLeeds is Welsh, 1 born in Scotland lived here since 8 is Scottish and his sister lived here since 6 is English.

I think it is pretty simple. Residency is different to being from a country, people seem to be getting confused.

Yes completely. My mate is from England but is Welsh.

Theres only three ways to be eligible to play for a country

A) through time served living in that country
B) born in that country
C) some biological link to that country (through parents/grandparents)

Clearly faletau only meets criteria a, therefore he is a time served player

No 7&1/2 wrote:

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Far too simplistic for me. But then 2 of my best mates, one born and bred inLeeds is Welsh, 1 born in Scotland lived here since 8 is Scottish and his sister lived here since 6 is English.

I think it is pretty simple. Residency is different to being from a country, people seem to be getting confused.

Yes completely. My mate is from England but is Welsh.

Parents from Wales?

Welsh guy no but his dad is Welsh. Scottish mate yes. My Irish father in law has been there twice.

True Raven wrote:Theres only three ways to be eligible to play for a country

A) through time served living in that country
B) born in that country
C) some biological link to that country (through parents/grandparents)

Clearly faletau only meets criteria a, therefore he is a time served player

True but Hughes qualifies the same way and there'll be a helluva lot more grumbling.