England want to poach another Welsh player

First topic message reminder :

Well. if Gatland does not want to cap him, somebody else does, Thomas Young, the son of Welsh and British Lion Dai Young is ripping up trees for Wasps apparently, and England want in, they have already made enquiries and the ball is now in Thomas's court, who do you think he will end up pledging his allegiances to ? 


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-make-audacious-bid-entice-11168337


I don't think a country as small as Wales can afford to lose out on players myself.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Welsh guy no but his dad is Welsh. Scottish mate yes. My Irish father in law has been there twice.

At least there's some sort of link. A lot of these guys that announce how they now feel English/Welsh etc end up going back to their home country after finsihing their rugby career. It's just the way of the world, it's not a bad thing.

Surely with regards to Faletau being Welsh qualified. but not being Welsh.

Surely if he is qualified to play for Wales, then he must hold a Welsh Passport. So if he holds a Welsh passport then he surely must be Welsh. right?

It can be like that, I have no doubt Faletau is Welsh though.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It can be like that, I have no doubt Faletau is Welsh though.

You may have no doubt....but he isn't lol.

There's no such thing as a Welsh passport.

Whatever pooly you sound like my dad!

No 7&1/2 wrote:Whatever pooly you sound like my dad!

Maybe I am?

majesticimperialman wrote:Surely with regards to Faletau being Welsh qualified. but not being Welsh.

Surely if he is qualified to play for Wales, then he must hold a Welsh Passport. So if he holds a Welsh passport then he surely must be Welsh. right?

No such thing as a Welsh passport though, he'll hold a UK one though.

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Surely with regards to Faletau being Welsh qualified. but not being Welsh.

Surely if he is qualified to play for Wales, then he must hold a Welsh Passport. So if he holds a Welsh passport then he surely must be Welsh. right?

No such thing as a Welsh passport though, he'll hold a UK one though.

But he will be registered as Welsh. won't he?

majesticimperialman wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Surely with regards to Faletau being Welsh qualified. but not being Welsh.

Surely if he is qualified to play for Wales, then he must hold a Welsh Passport. So if he holds a Welsh passport then he surely must be Welsh. right?

No such thing as a Welsh passport though, he'll hold a UK one though.

But he will be registered as Welsh. won't he?

I wonder what Register your name appears on???

majesticimperialman wrote:

Hammersmith harrier wrote:

majesticimperialman wrote:Surely with regards to Faletau being Welsh qualified. but not being Welsh.

Surely if he is qualified to play for Wales, then he must hold a Welsh Passport. So if he holds a Welsh passport then he surely must be Welsh. right?

No such thing as a Welsh passport though, he'll hold a UK one though.

But he will be registered as Welsh. won't he?

He'll be registered as a UK citizen.

He's Welsh and British and European and Northern Hemisphere and Earthling. All at once.

Unlike Visser, Flutey and countless others he didn't come round on a tourist visa and pick up a few national caps while at it. He's Welsh regards to being raised, educated and developed in Wales.

He's not Welsh.

He's no doubt a proud Tonga brother. Funnily enough that's how Faletau's brother describes himself, and he's lived in Wales a lot of his life. I've also no doubt that Faletau is a bit Welsh at heart - and it's probably not worth arguing over.

Also just to add, Jake Ball actually has a Welsh father. Not sure on his mother, or if he had lived in Wales before now. Ball moved to Aus from England at a young age as far as I know.

If Faletau isn't Welsh the Vunipolas and Tuilagi aren't English

Knowsit17 wrote:If Faletau isn't Welsh the Vunipolas and Tuilagi aren't English

All of manu's brothers played for Samoa, that should be an indication of where his heritage lies. He's a time server like Faletau and the Vunipolas.

All individuals being discussed spent a reasonable amount of time being developed (i.e. grown up, educated) in England and Wales. As such all should have the right to be considered as from those areas. In the same way as the many Fijians/Samoans/Tongans who spent all but the start of their lives in NZ have the right to represent and be considered from NZ. Place of birth/parentage are not necessarily absolute factors.

The real time servers are those I mentioned previously - players who move somewhere to exploit the lax residency rules and then move on. Such as Flutey and Visser to name two.

This is turning into the kind of discussions we have about drop goals - e.g. ' drop goals bad' then 'how many games are decided by drop goals?'

Nobody wants to see lots of 'mercenaries' but in truth there are very few with no links to their adopted country of choice. Nathan Hughes will be an exception but in reality an unusual one.

True Raven wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:If Faletau isn't Welsh the Vunipolas and Tuilagi aren't English

All of manu's brothers played for Samoa, that should be an indication of where his heritage lies.  He's a time server like Faletau and the Vunipolas.

What nonsense someone who arrives in a country as a child is a hell of a lot more justified in player for a country than people like Isaac Boss , or even worse
someone like Thomas Waldron, who didn't even know he had an English grandparent until he was considered good enough for selection.

The stupid granny rule makes time servers of loads of players who are far less worthy of consideration than the people you mention.

Knowsit17 wrote:All individuals being discussed spent a reasonable amount of time being developed (i.e. grown up, educated) in England and Wales. As such all should have the right to be considered as from those areas. In the same way as the many Fijians/Samoans/Tongans who spent all but the start of their lives in NZ have the right to represent and be considered from NZ. Place of birth/parentage are not necessarily absolute factors.

The real time servers are those I mentioned previously - players who move somewhere to exploit the lax residency rules and then move on. Such as Flutey and Visser to name two.

Flutey and Visser are the worst of the lot.

Any residency only qualified player who moves to another country should be disqualified from player for their adopted country - although in Fluteys case it would have made no difference because he was useless.

I think it's a joke, we already have this new All Black winger signing for Scarlets declaring that he wants to play for Wales, WTF is that all about, if he aint good enough for his own country then why should he be good enough for ours ?

Johnny McNicholl?

If so, with all due respect, competing against Julien Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Waisake Naholo is very different to competing against Alex Cuthbert and Tom James

BamBam wrote:Johnny McNicholl?

If so, with all due respect, competing against Julien Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Waisake Naholo is very different to competing against Alex Cuthbert and Tom James

I don't care. 

Because he is not as good as those he will chance his arm with another country. What a load of bollox international rugby is.

LordDowlais wrote:I think it's a joke, we already have this new All Black winger signing for Scarlets declaring that he wants to play for Wales, WTF is that all about, if he aint good enough for his own country then why should he be good enough for ours ?

Well Cuthbert was capped wasn't he

geoff999rugby wrote:

True Raven wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:If Faletau isn't Welsh the Vunipolas and Tuilagi aren't English

All of manu's brothers played for Samoa, that should be an indication of where his heritage lies.  He's a time server like Faletau and the Vunipolas.

What nonsense someone who arrives in a country as a child is a hell of a lot more justified in player for a country than people like Isaac Boss , or even worse
someone like Thomas Waldron, who didn't even know he had an English grandparent until he was considered good enough for selection.

The stupid granny rule makes time servers of loads of players who are far less worthy of consideration than the people you mention.

When did I say having an English grandparent is more worthy of selection than being here as a child?

I said that Faletau or Tuilagi only qualify playing for Wales or England becasue they have lived here for a certain no of years which makes them a time server. Clearly Tuilagi and Faletau have more of an affinity than Flutey or Visser to the countries the play for but it doesn't change the fact that they qualify due to residency.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Johnny McNicholl?

If so, with all due respect, competing against Julien Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Waisake Naholo is very different to competing against Alex Cuthbert and Tom James

I don't care. 

Because he is not as good as those he will chance his arm with another country. What a load of bollox international rugby is.

Another well thought out, reasonably argued post from our resident master debater

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Johnny McNicholl?

If so, with all due respect, competing against Julien Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Waisake Naholo is very different to competing against Alex Cuthbert and Tom James

I don't care. 

Because he is not as good as those he will chance his arm with another country. What a load of bollox international rugby is.

Another well thought out, reasonably argued post from our resident master debater

We will never beat or better the All Blacks if we keep handing out caps to players who are not as good as them. We should be striving to produce players of equal or better talent than our opponents, not handing out cheap caps to the next best thing.

geoff999rugby wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:All individuals being discussed spent a reasonable amount of time being developed (i.e. grown up, educated) in England and Wales. As such all should have the right to be considered as from those areas. In the same way as the many Fijians/Samoans/Tongans who spent all but the start of their lives in NZ have the right to represent and be considered from NZ. Place of birth/parentage are not necessarily absolute factors.

The real time servers are those I mentioned previously - players who move somewhere to exploit the lax residency rules and then move on. Such as Flutey and Visser to name two.

Flutey and Visser are the worst of the lot.

Any residency only qualified player who moves to another country should be disqualified from player for their adopted country - although in Fluteys case it would have made no difference because he was useless.

Visser doesn't have a top level country of his own so you can understand why he looked elsewhere (and obviously decided he had more chances with Scotland than England). Flutey was actually good, if only briefly. Then he got broke (on Lions duty?) and never quite got back to form. I know we (England) have had a lot of crap at 12 over the last few years but out of that lot he was definitely one of the better ones.

Lorddowlais you are right.

Scotland should stop capping South African and NZ rejects. Other countries need to stop too.

Many people seem to have jumped on the Harrison bandwagon but I think it's damning of our development system if he can leapfrog Fraser and Ksevic as well as others for England.

It was a similar situation with Steffon Armitage, there were some fans desperate to bring in S.Armitage from France to fill a hole we should be able to.

Hape and Flutey were capped by England because our ability to find a homegrown 12 has been laughably poor.

Hence having to shoehorn 10s like Farrell and Flood in at centre. Slade a 10 by trade is being earmarked as a potential centre too.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Johnny McNicholl?

If so, with all due respect, competing against Julien Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Waisake Naholo is very different to competing against Alex Cuthbert and Tom James

I don't care. 

Because he is not as good as those he will chance his arm with another country. What a load of bollox international rugby is.

Another well thought out, reasonably argued post from our resident master debater

We will never beat or better the All Blacks if we keep handing out caps to players who are not as good as them. We should be striving to produce players of equal or better talent than our opponents, not handing out cheap caps to the next best thing.

Oh I agree, just pull a Julian Savea out of thin air, let me know when that happens.

In the meantime, a player who could help beat any other side can be sitting twiddling his thumbs

True Raven wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

True Raven wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:If Faletau isn't Welsh the Vunipolas and Tuilagi aren't English

All of manu's brothers played for Samoa, that should be an indication of where his heritage lies.  He's a time server like Faletau and the Vunipolas.

What nonsense someone who arrives in a country as a child is a hell of a lot more justified in player for a country than people like Isaac Boss , or even worse
someone like Thomas Waldron, who didn't even know he had an English grandparent until he was considered good enough for selection.

The stupid granny rule makes time servers of loads of players who are far less worthy of consideration than the people you mention.

When did I say having an English grandparent is more worthy of selection than being here as a child?

I said that Faletau or Tuilagi only qualify playing for Wales or England becasue they have lived here for a certain no of years which makes them a time server.  Clearly Tuilagi and Faletau have more of an affinity than Flutey or Visser to the countries the play for but it doesn't change the fact that they qualify due to residency.

You didn't not just mention they qualified through residence - you called them time servers which is unfair.
A time server is someone who goes to another country just to gain international caps.
Vunipola and Falateau have every right to call them themselves British citizens both legally and morally.

My point about the granny rule was that there are players who qualify through other means who are far less worthy of playing for another country than those mentioned.

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Johnny McNicholl?

If so, with all due respect, competing against Julien Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Waisake Naholo is very different to competing against Alex Cuthbert and Tom James

I don't care. 

Because he is not as good as those he will chance his arm with another country. What a load of bollox international rugby is.

Another well thought out, reasonably argued post from our resident master debater

We will never beat or better the All Blacks if we keep handing out caps to players who are not as good as them. We should be striving to produce players of equal or better talent than our opponents, not handing out cheap caps to the next best thing.

Oh I agree, just pull a Julian Savea out of thin air, let me know when that happens.

In the meantime, a player who could help beat any other side can be sitting twiddling his thumbs

OMG, are you wumming or what ? You would honestly want to see a player represent your country who is not good enough for his own country, rather than see you own country strive to produce anything better ?

I reckon it you who is the resident master debater.

The capping of SA players anyhow is soon to be over. The 2nd designate team from 2012 onwards is the baby boks. Anyone capped by babyboks cannot be capped by anyone else in test rugby meaning the shop window whilst open is closing fast.

Tim Swiel for instance turned down the chance to play in the JRWC with the babyboks in 2013 as he was unsure if he would like to play for SA or England.

Reducing yourself to only players who didn't get babybok caps is going to be scraping the barrel for sure.

fa0019 wrote:Reducing yourself to only players who didn't get babybok caps is going to be scraping the barrel for sure.

That wont stop most of them.

I think what Lorddowlais means is that a cap for a national side should be valuable, not just handed to every man and their dog to boost player numbers.

Ultimately it's important to have a strong development structure and pick players from the country and clubs.

Bambam do you mean like Steffon Armitage?

beshocked wrote:I think what Lorddowlais means is that a cap for a national side should be valuable, not just handed to every man and their dog to boost player numbers.

This 100%. This is exactly what I mean.

Jock Stein the famed European Cup winning legendary coach of Glasgow Celtic when asked who would he signed if he had 2 options, the Protestant or the Catholic? He answered "the Protestant... because Rangers would never sign the Catholic".

Perhaps half the battle is not only widening your net as much as possible but restricting that of your rivals...i.e. capping as many people as possible in your 2nd stream to reduce any possible converts etc or capping those with dual nationality, dual loyalties etc earlier than you otherwise would have.

Certainly not a romantic notion of sportsmanship... but perhaps a decent example of gamesmanship.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Johnny McNicholl?

If so, with all due respect, competing against Julien Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Waisake Naholo is very different to competing against Alex Cuthbert and Tom James

I don't care. 

Because he is not as good as those he will chance his arm with another country. What a load of bollox international rugby is.

Another well thought out, reasonably argued post from our resident master debater

We will never beat or better the All Blacks if we keep handing out caps to players who are not as good as them. We should be striving to produce players of equal or better talent than our opponents, not handing out cheap caps to the next best thing.

Oh I agree, just pull a Julian Savea out of thin air, let me know when that happens.

In the meantime, a player who could help beat any other side can be sitting twiddling his thumbs

OMG, are you wumming or what ? You would honestly want to see a player represent your country who is not good enough for his own country, rather than see you own country strive to produce anything better ?

I reckon it you who is the resident master debater.

I think you're seriously missing the point here. He may not be good enough for his own country (New Zealand, in this instance, where the competition is supposed to be quite stiff, I hear) but he may be the best player in his newly adopted country. Of course your country should strive to produce better players, which I'm fairly sure they are trying to do, but the reality is that you probably don't have anything better. Nor are you likely to have a player who would be good enough to get onto the All Blacks side. That is just the reality.

Rene Ranger is a good example of a player who I felt was always unlucky to miss out nailing the starting shirt for the All Blacks. He would quite easily walk onto almost any other team in the world. There are many players in the S15 like this.

Ok we should all be capping unlucky SH players because we are all useless when it comes to producing our own.

No, I'm just saying that is often the reality. That would be why the home nations sometimes look to foreign, uncapped talent. We very rarely have players who are better than those in NZ. Of course we should try and improve in that aspect, but you will always pick the best players available to you.

Look Rory, I will not argue about this, we live in a free world and you are entitled to your opinion. But just think about something for a second, do you think that the reason why we cannot emulate the big three teams from the SH is because we see a player that they do not cap as a level to meet when our nations come to cap players ?

Whether you judge these players to be unlucky or not, they are not being capped by their native country, but we see them as international material.

If this is the bar we are setting then we will always be behind the three SH nations.

Isn't it about time you corrected the original wummy post and title?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Isn't it about time you corrected the original wummy post and title?

Ignore.....

Anyway, as I was saying. Dan Carter, Richie McCaw, Keiron Read, Pocock, Gittau, Hooper, Matfield, Botha, Habbana and others like these are the level the three SH countries set the bar to when it comes to capping players.

Us on the other hand set our bar at players who do not get capped by these countries, we cap their cast offs and we cap players of equal ability to the cast offs.

This why we will never emulate the big three SH countries.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Isn't it about time you corrected the original wummy post and title?

Ignore.....

So no, you quite like the wum still.

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, as I was saying. Dan Carter, Richie McCaw, Keiron Read, Pocock, Gittau, Hooper, Matfield, Botha, Habbana and others like these are the level the three SH countries set the bar to when it comes to capping players.

Us on the other hand set our bar at players who do not get capped by these countries, we cap their cast offs and we cap players of equal ability to the cast offs.

This why we will never emulate the big three SH countries.

Totally agree with your argument that caps are too easily won by people with no association with the country but the argument that the NH giving caps to SH
players who cant make in the SH, as Internationals, is a reason we are not as good is nonsense.

Why is it nonsense, obviously we set the bar lower, thus we will always be behind.

You set the bar low accusing England of poaching forgetting to read the actual article thus getting your facts wrong then ignoring this in a huff. Oh and Nel would fall into this and is the best tight head in the nh currently.

Knowsit17 wrote:If Faletau isn't Welsh the Vunipolas and Tuilagi aren't English

Yup.

LordDowlais wrote:Look Rory, I will not argue about this, we live in a free world and you are entitled to your opinion. But just think about something for a second, do you think that the reason why we cannot emulate the big three teams from the SH is because we see a player that they do not cap as a level to meet when our nations come to cap players ?

Whether you judge these players to be unlucky or not, they are not being capped by their native country, but we see them as international material.

If this is the bar we are setting then we will always be behind the three SH nations.

Well thank you for reminding me that this is a "free world" and I can give my opinion. Appreciated.

So, just because a player isn't capped by their native country, that means they aren't international class? CJ Stander looks like international class to me. As does Jared Payne, John Hardie etc.

Look, I would rather Ireland dropped the project player thing personally. I would prefer to have homegrown talent. However, the rules are there and some of the Southern Hemisphere "rejects" are better than our players. That is why the NH teams are exploiting it.

LordDowlais wrote:Anyway, as I was saying. Dan Carter, Richie McCaw, Keiron Read, Pocock, Gittau, Hooper, Matfield, Botha, Habbana and others like these are the level the three SH countries set the bar to when it comes to capping players.

Us on the other hand set our bar at players who do not get capped by these countries, we cap their cast offs and we cap players of equal ability to the cast offs.

This why we will never emulate the big three SH countries.

You seem to think that because they haven't been capped by NZ, SA, Australia etc, that must mean they aren't as good as the NH homegrown players. That is a strange conclusion to come to.