England want to poach another Welsh player

First topic message reminder :

Well. if Gatland does not want to cap him, somebody else does, Thomas Young, the son of Welsh and British Lion Dai Young is ripping up trees for Wasps apparently, and England want in, they have already made enquiries and the ball is now in Thomas's court, who do you think he will end up pledging his allegiances to ? 


http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-make-audacious-bid-entice-11168337


I don't think a country as small as Wales can afford to lose out on players myself.

No they are as good as the homegrown players, they just aren't good enough to get capped by the SH big three, as they demand more than we do for capping players.

It might be worth pointing out that Scarlets are just exploiting the project player rule with McNicholl. I doubt Wales are lining him up ready for 3 years time. On the other hand, he has a Scottish granny...

mikey_dragon wrote:It might be worth pointing out that Scarlets are just exploiting the project player rule with McNicholl. I doubt Wales are lining him up ready for 3 years time. On the other hand, he has a Scottish granny...

Same as us with Dai Landman

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:Johnny McNicholl?

If so, with all due respect, competing against Julien Savea, Nehe Milner-Skudder and Waisake Naholo is very different to competing against Alex Cuthbert and Tom James

I don't care. 

Because he is not as good as those he will chance his arm with another country. What a load of bollox international rugby is.

Another well thought out, reasonably argued post from our resident master debater

We will never beat or better the All Blacks if we keep handing out caps to players who are not as good as them. We should be striving to produce players of equal or better talent than our opponents, not handing out cheap caps to the next best thing.

Oh I agree, just pull a Julian Savea out of thin air, let me know when that happens.

In the meantime, a player who could help beat any other side can be sitting twiddling his thumbs

OMG, are you wumming or what ? You would honestly want to see a player represent your country who is not good enough for his own country, rather than see you own country strive to produce anything better ?

I reckon it you who is the resident master debater.

I think you're seriously missing the point here. He may not be good enough for his own country (New Zealand, in this instance, where the competition is supposed to be quite stiff, I hear) but he may be the best player in his newly adopted country. Of course your country should strive to produce better players, which I'm fairly sure they are trying to do, but the reality is that you probably don't have anything better. Nor are you likely to have a player who would be good enough to get onto the All Blacks side. That is just the reality.

Rene Ranger is a good example of a player who I felt was always unlucky to miss out nailing the starting shirt for the All Blacks. He would quite easily walk onto almost any other team in the world. There are many players in the S15 like this.

Rene has just returned from France, had he not gone he would have nailed his name to the AB shirt. He actually decided to play for his (and mine) beloved Taniwha's (Northland) instead of the AB's in his last season before going to France. He will be back in Black possibly against Wales, he seems red hot for the Blue's at present.

LordDowlais wrote:Why is it nonsense, obviously we set the bar lower, thus we will always be behind.

It is nonsense because it is not the reason we are not as good as the SH.
The only way it would make sense is if the project players coming in lower the standard of the team - infact it is the opposite.
We pick the best players we have available

If the players available are not good enough not selecting projects would not improve the teams.
The problem is internally within the respective NH countries - projects are irrelevant to this issue.

does pride in representing your country enhance performance?

If so I think this should be taken into consideration on selection. Players especially those who represent through residency may take pride in their accomplishment, even the history of the jersey etc but in the end they are pretty much mercenaries.

Some are fa, some aren't. There are players who qualified for England who were mistakes, there were some you could never question there pride and commitment. Equally true of those qualifying in other manners.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Some are fa, some aren't. There are players who qualified for England who were mistakes, there were some you could never question there pride and commitment. Equally true of those qualifying in other manners.

I'm not saying they will automatically play bad because they are foreign. Some like Flutey played very very well.

However say you have 2 players, near equal in everything. One a residency qualified player and one indigenous. You pick the indigenous one right... because when the chips are down you know more often then not that they will be the ones left standing.

Just saying that if playing for your country elevates performance it should be taking into consideration when choosing residency qualified players over indigenous ones , ones who may even be a little bit below.

England have a chap called Hughes right from Wasps. Take him for example. If he is slightly better than Vunipola, do you pick him? Assuming Vunipola has national pride in playing for England given whilst he is qualified from residency its from a young age rather than as an adult.

Ha, was actually thinking of Flutey as a guy who wasn't really England through and through! Played well for a spell but didn't really sit right. I was then thinking or a Mauritz Botha, though relatively limited as a player was (or seems(ed) it) committed and not chasing the shirt as a career opportunity.

Although fans would I think on majority prefer a 'proper indigenous' national team I think nationality is an extremely hard thing to judge in some cases and a black and white rule wouldn't really tell you much, would have to judge it on a case by case basis with actually knowing the people involved; which of course we as observers can't do.

As it is I feel just play to rules and judge on the pitch. In the case of Hughes, yes cap him as soon as possible as the guy is absolute class. Worry about the selection headache of him or Vunipola, or them at 6 and 8 either way, or bench option afterwards.

Look at the pride and ambition shown by the likes of Tobias Flood.

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Why is it nonsense, obviously we set the bar lower, thus we will always be behind.

It is nonsense because it is not the reason we are not as good as the SH.
The only way it would make sense is if the project players coming in lower the standard of the team - infact it is the opposite.
We pick the best players we have available

If the players available are not good enough not selecting projects would not improve the teams.
The problem is internally within the respective NH countries - projects are irrelevant to this issue.

geoff actually I disagree. In general our development of players is worse than that of the tri nations.

It's why tri nations cast offs can come to Europe and have successful careers.

You rarely see it happen the other way round. We should be producing good enough players ourselves without relying on project players.

Shows a lack of strength in depth.

Only way we can catch up is to work on overall development of players which starts at grassroots.

Young academy players surpassing foreigners is what we want to be seeing.

It's a damning statement of a young player's ability if they can't supplant an average foreign player.

You probably get a few more English players moving abroad than in football but it's still all about money isn't it? The money is mainly in France and England so players moving abroad are going for different reasons. I can only really think of Cipriani, Haskell and Symonds going down south. Don't really know how Cipriani went but he was at a real low point, Haskell was a bit of a break from the press and Symonds came back with big expectations and has been slightly meh in my opinion. Is there anymore?

Players don't go the other way much because generally for the players who could make it there is much more money available in the NH and selection criteria (based on eligibility) is much tougher in the SH.

In contrast the current politically driven selection criteria in SA could mean that the best player for a position won't get picked and might want to look elsewhere

no 7 & 1/2 sure it's of course a bit about the money but you have players coming here who weren't making a breakthrough in the SH but here they have.

Symons isn't exactly tearing up the AP on his return is he? He's a player that no one had heard of when he went to the SH, now he's back he's again gone back to blending into the scenery. Harsh perhaps but I feel like it's true. Now maybe moving to another club higher up the table might bring him back into relevance if LI are relegated, we'll see.

Two of the new prospects for England that some people are getting excited for are two foreign born players - Harrison and Hughes.

Can't seem to sufficiently develop our own talent in certain areas.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You probably get a few more English players moving abroad than in football but it's still all about money isn't it? The money is mainly in France and England so players moving abroad are going for different reasons. I can only really think of Cipriani, Haskell and Symonds going down south. Don't really know how Cipriani went but he was at a real low point, Haskell was a bit of a break from the press and Symonds came back with big expectations and has been slightly meh in my opinion. Is there anymore?

Michalak ofc. There was that England prop who got into problems for biting also - can't remember his name right now

It is also entirely possible (as with Botha) that systems in the NH may suit some SH players more than the systems they grew up with. Those players might develop more here than down south.

Yeah I agree beshocked. Just saying that there's a bit more pull towards the NH for money than SH. Symonds was an example where someone who hasn't been pulling up trees and impressing many here was turning heads down there (apparently).

Now Hughes is very good and would be a name spoken about if he was about to qualify for any team. Harrison I think is the name of the week as he played well on tv last week, may well be someone else next week. For me I wouldn't say he's better than a few home growns as of yet.

There's generally some very talented lads around at the moment.

Not sure lost, Botha did obviously improve a lot but if it were to happen now with a player of similar ability he'd be nowhere near the team.

beshocked wrote:

Two of the new prospects for England that some people are getting excited for are two foreign born players - Harrison and Hughes.

Not fussed about Harrison, id rather work on Kvesic or Fraser.

However the whole Hughes situation really gets my goat. Yes I know its the rules, and he's an immense player.....

BUT

He elected to ignore his home country in a world cup over becoming eligible for England wheres he's only just getting to the three year residency this summer.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Not sure lost, Botha did obviously improve a lot but if it were to happen now with a player of similar ability he'd be nowhere near the team.

No he wouldn't, not by a long shot. But I just wanted to point out that for the right player its entirely possible that they could realise potential better in the NH.

None of this stuff is black and white

Yes, definitely. You can also get the sort of player who perfectly suits one teams style and looks rubbish in the next as well.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Two of the new prospects for England that some people are getting excited for are two foreign born players - Harrison and Hughes.

Not fussed about Harrison, id rather work on Kvesic or Fraser.

However the whole Hughes situation really gets my goat. Yes I know its the rules, and he's an immense player.....

BUT

He elected to ignore his home country in a world cup over becoming eligible for England wheres he's only just getting to the three year residency this summer.



 

Well Im sure the Fijian hockey and basketball teams are every bit as annoyed with his decision to go with rugby at all.

As are the All Blacks that they didnt poach him properly

beshocked wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Why is it nonsense, obviously we set the bar lower, thus we will always be behind.

It is nonsense because it is not the reason we are not as good as the SH.
The only way it would make sense is if the project players coming in lower the standard of the team - infact it is the opposite.
We pick the best players we have available

If the players available are not good enough not selecting projects would not improve the teams.
The problem is internally within the respective NH countries - projects are irrelevant to this issue.

geoff actually I disagree. In general our development of players is worse than that of the tri nations.

It's why tri nations cast offs can come to Europe and have successful careers.

You rarely see it happen the other way round. We should be producing good enough players ourselves without relying on project players.

Shows a lack of strength in depth.  

Only way we can catch up is to work on overall development of players which starts at grassroots.

Young academy players surpassing foreigners is what we want to be seeing.

It's a damning statement of a young player's ability if they can't supplant an average foreign player.

We should be producing good enough players, but we aren't. That is the reality. I agree that it starts at grassroots and improving the academy and I think we are moving closer in that regard. For now though, we are attracting players from the SH because they know they might get a chance at international level and they know they are probably better than our homegrown players.

You also seem to be making the mistake of assuming that because a player doesn't get capped for SANZAR they must be an average foreign player. It is a lot harder to break into those teams than ours. It is hardly a damning statement on a young player if said foreign player is test class material.

You see things in a very odd black and white view.

See, beshocked gets it.

I reckon the only people on here who do not get it, are the one's who's nation are constantly flaunting the stupid eligibility rules.

Beshocked and LordDowlais get it folks. Our two most enlightened posters.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:You also seem to be making the mistake of assuming that because a player doesn't get capped for SANZAR they must be an average foreign player. It is a lot harder to break into those teams than ours.

And this is the fundamental question, why is it harder to break into the SANZAR international teams ? 

It's because they set the bar higher, and then the players that make it are of a higher standard because they have had to work harder to reach that higher bar. The one's  that do not work hard enough shrug their shoulders and chance their arm up here, we see them as the standard and we always play catch up.

Geordiefalcon perhaps you would but Jones so far doesn't seem to be fond of either Fraser or Ksevic.

The irony is that our top 2 no 8s will be foreign born, of the Pacific island ancestry. The top English born no 8, Morgan seems to not be able to rediscover the form of 2014. He's of course a player that Wales wanted, due to their inability to find a Welsh born no 8 of their own! Relying on Pacific island talent themselves.

lostinwales yes of course a player can realise their potential better in the NH but because of different factors like money,inability to get into their own national side, tri nations players are attracted to Europe and many have been very successful.

My point is that the journey has been largely one sided.

6 nations sides picking foreigners in their teams shows a lack of strength of depth and a failure in the academy in my opinion.

Having to draft in a foreigner because the youngsters aren't good enough. Relying on Pacific island muscle or NZ/SA muscle.

Lorddowlais to be fair I am a bit of a hypocrite - being a big fan of the Vunipola bros but England rely on them because our English born equivalents aren't good enough. It shows our lack of strength of depth but then again I am grateful to have those two.

Yeah, that is a really rational assessment of the situation, LordD.

So you consider the Vunipolas as foreign 'products' then?

lostinwales wrote:Players don't go the other way much because generally for the players who could make it there is much more money available in the NH and selection criteria (based on eligibility) is much tougher in the SH.

In contrast the current politically driven selection criteria in SA could mean that the best player for a position won't get picked  and might want to look elsewhere

I don't think Mouritz Botha can claim that reason given like maybe 2 out of say 20 locks in SA super teams are non-whites. He was struggling to hold down 3rd tier rugby at Boland when he left SA, never close to SA babyboks etc.

I think the professional setup below Super rugby is not as well managed as professional rugby in say England division 1 & 2 (1-2 off premiership) or whatever its called. The Southern Kings can't even pay a professional outfit for the currie cup this year so will field amateurs mainly from their academy.
Guys who trade teams like Boland for Bedford will probably rise above their Boland counterparts in time due to better conditioning etc in that setup.

beshocked wrote:Geordiefalcon perhaps you would but Jones so far doesn't seem to be fond of either Fraser or Ksevic.

No international coach seems to.

Jones seems to have his own idea of back row set up that actually matches what Lancaster wanted...but that debate is going on, on another thread at the moment.

back on topic though, I think we are producing more now though. The academies are really coming good.

Itoje, Clifford, examples of whats coming through - ball playing forwards (who still have the power) , instead of the Neanderthal meatheads of old.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you consider the Vunipolas as foreign 'products' then?

Born abroad, brought up in Wales, then England.

A complicated upbringing. Not exactly born in country X,played in country X whole life.

Their situation is similar to Manu Tuilagi.

Essentially they've been here on long term residency. They've come through the English system which has developed into them into the rugby players they are today.

Now I personally think that if the Vunipola bros and Manu are proud to wear the English rose then fair play to them but let's be honest, they aren't English born or have English relatives.

I guess you could argue does that matter?

To some it does, to some it doesn't.

I was just thinking more in terms of the argument that SH are better due to their coaching etc. Thought that was where you were coming from. For me they've come up through the system into their respective professional clubs so I wouldn't really consider them as SH.

SH do indeed have better coaches - it's why 5 of the national coaches of the 6 nations are now foreign.

I don't think Noves will last long either, I think White will take the job in a year if I was predicting....

Our coaches haven't been good enough in general.

Don't know enough about the coaches down there or youth coaching to comment in detail on that to be honest.

For a fair while it looked bleak but some of the youngsters coming through now in the English system is very encouraging.

Probably more so than Tuilagi. Manu came to England when he was 10, illegally. He would have been deported probably had he not been a top class pro rugby player as originally he only came for a "holiday" to see his brothers". If I recall he had to go to court/a tribunal of some sort at start of his career.
Its a grey area into what determines a national identity. Does Manu see himself as Samoan, as English? If Samoa had just as good a team, paid as well etc as England would he still choose England? Maybe, maybe not.

Guys like Simon Geoghegan were born and raised in England but still chose Ireland over England despite them being at the time, a significantly lesser team.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Yeah, that is a really rational assessment of the situation, LordD.

Well why don't you answer the question then ?

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Beshocked and LordDowlais get it folks. Our two most enlightened posters.

what a pairing

fa0019 wrote:Probably more so than Tuilagi. Manu came to England when he was 10, illegally. He would have been deported probably had he not been a top class pro rugby player as originally he only came for a "holiday" to see his brothers". If I recall he had to go to court/a tribunal of some sort at start of his career.
Its a grey area into what determines a national identity. Does Manu see himself as Samoan, as English? If Samoa had just as good a team, paid as well etc as England would he still choose England? Maybe, maybe not.

Guys like Simon Geoghegan were born and raised in England but still chose Ireland over England despite them being at the time, a significantly lesser team.

fa0019 I did see Manu as a project player for the England rugby side but then again so was someone like Owen Farrell Jr who was taken from Wigan at the age of 13 to play rugby union instead of rugby league.

Still same country but taking a player from another sport to play the other. Having to take from another sport to help with strength in depth. It's not a new concept.

Definitely national identity is complicated. There's the individual's own opinion then there's other people's opinion.

I certainly think it's important to either be born in a country or have an ancestral connection with it (e.g. parents,grandparents,uncles etc). Though then again if someone feels committed to England, lives here etc and integrates then I don't see an issue with that. Obviously some cases are different.

Don't really know how the Vunipola bros and Manu see themselves.

Who's more English Tuilagi or Tom Francis? So complicated.

Tomas Francis I would say.

Born in England, English parents I believe. He even plays and I assume lives in England.

Might play for Wales but that's because he was desperate to be capped.

Yeah, got the chance to play for us said no, Wales have called. Like Poolys opinion that Faletau is not Welsh and never could be. Doesn't sit right to me.

Did he have the chance to play for England though? Probably felt that he would have been behind Wilson,Brookes and Cole for England.

For Wales just that ginger boy...... Gingers aren't a race so it's fine.

National identity is complicated.

Chris Wyles for example is about as English as you can get but he plays for USA. Some people like him see themselves as dual nationality. Christopher Nolan the director is the same.

And the context of course...

Francis could be very good. Very good scrummager. Shame he went down that route.

Faletau is about as welsh as you can get so yes very hard to tell. As I said above without actually knowing these guys as well pretty much impossible to tell.

Personally I think Francis needs to lose a bit of timber. Don't get me wrong some players can be chubby and that works - I think it does wit George for example, George has good acceleration. Personally don't believe it does with Francis.

How is Faletau as Welsh as you can get when he wasn't born in Wales, doesn't have Welsh parents, just like Manu and the Vunipola bros he's there based on long term residency.

Sometimes we joke about North being English but he does have a Welsh parent so he does have a clear choice. If North wanted to he could see himself as both Welsh and English - sacrilege I know but he could.

Say Faletau was brought into Britain at 2 days old and raised here in the culture etc. What difference would that make if he was born here? Everyone and everything around you will affect you, mold you and help decide who you are.

You are talking about hypothetical again....

Have to take it on a case by case basis.

We are talking about Faletau not some speculative case.

There are some grey areas but some things are certain.

Until Faletau comes out and says I'm Tongan not Welsh I know what I'll go with.

Bit of a sideline to the aspects of whether the NH leads to a poorer class of player though.

beshocked wrote:

For Wales just that ginger boy...... Gingers aren't a race so it's fine.

Neither are Gypsys, surely its a lifestyle.

We don't have to redo this.