England want to poach another Welsh player

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 11, 2016 3:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well. if Gatland does not want to cap him, somebody else does, Thomas Young, the son of Welsh and British Lion Dai Young is ripping up trees for Wasps apparently, and England want in, they have already made enquiries and the ball is now in Thomas's court, who do you think he will end up pledging his allegiances to ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-make-audacious-bid-entice-11168337

I don't think a country as small as Wales can afford to lose out on players myself.

by Fanster Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:18 pm

TJ wrote:Shinglers is worse for his " I always wanted to play for scotland shtick"

Thats different to Maitland talking about his granny imprinting Scottish culture on him, and how he hates the English blah blah blah.

Both played U20 for another country, both wanted to play int rugby and Scotland offered both an opportunity. Infact I could suggest now Maitland has his name in the ring, and will be selected he left Scotland at the first possible opportunity despite them wanting to renew his contract.

by Guest Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:20 pm

Yeah, I recall a Fijian player (Rokoduguni) was capped a couple of years ago and spat out after having a shocker on debut. Fijians can do what they want. The issue is the British doing what they want. And if you can't see that, I can't help you hammersmithharrier.

by Fanster Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:21 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:It's actually only 2,000, so what you're saying is that someone like Rokoduguni should not be allowed to fight in the British Army because of his culture, a somewhat xenophobic view.

I was going to mention Rokodugani in my original point with Maitland, Hardie and Anscombe, however due to his service, I don't think it's fair to lump him in to that category.

I see him closer to Botha, as in he happened to excel in rugby while here, but hasn't jumped ship to play for a NH international team, unlike Hughes.

by Hammersmith harrier Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:23 pm

That's different to any other country how exactly? Not that it's an issue anyway.

by Guest Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:27 pm

Hammersmith harrier wrote:That's different to any other country how exactly? Not that it's an issue anyway.

What are you referring to?

by Shifty Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:29 pm

It's amazing in rugby we have this debate yet in football it's much more clear cut. Personally the world is so multi cultural now that there is this tug of war over players. Faletau, and his cousins fathers were rugby players over here and had their children here, and chose to play for their adopted countries, with regards to Faletau he has said he last went to Tonga when he was aged 5 and can't remember it, so it's' an awkward one.
Then there have been other situations over the years, with Matthew Jarvis and James Loxton a good example they played for Wales U20, and the Ospreys were going to release them, but no other region wanted them, both were Irish qualified and Connaght signed both with a view for playing for Ireland, AFTER they joined Connacht the WRU pointed out they were only available for Wales and a mess ensued. They both stayed with Connaght but then Connacht released them, I "think" both are now semi-pro in the Welsh premiership.

Steve Shingler is another example, he played for Wales U20, but Andy Robinson came along and offered him the world with Scotland, he accepted and joined their squad, when the WRU stepped in. Truth be told he'd probably would of had 40 caps for Scotland by now, as they have been very weak in the center in recent years. He has been selected for 2 Wales tours to Japan, and South Africa but never capped.

Another angle is when Wales lost 92-0 to New Zealand in the U20 world cup. In the New Zealand team in the center was a lad called Rhys Llewellyn, a Welsh born, former Ospreys academy player who has an amazing game. The WRU tried to bring him back to Wales, but he signed for Canterbury Crusaders, and played for New Zealand 7's. He dropped down to the NPC team Canterbury quickly, and sees to of drifted away. Though I am aware he moved to right wing, though he was only 5'10 and quite light, so was probably deemed to small. The Other Welsh lad was Gareth Anscombe who had a Welsh mum, he is now in the Welsh squad.

Eligibility is a messy thing, in my opinion though boys who has Welsh fathers play for Wales, generally follow in Dad's foot steps. Moriarty, Shanklin, etc, after a brief tug of war they normally opt for Wales. In Young's case I'm not overly concerned about losing him as in the back line Wales always have depth, it's forwards we REALLY can't afford to lose.

by **Rugby Fan** Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:57 pm

If no-one has can think of a poach earlier than John Gallagher, then it looks like New Zealand take the honours as rugby's first poachers. That's quite fitting , given how many innovations they've introduced to the sport.

by Fanster Sat Apr 16, 2016 4:59 pm

Rugby Fan wrote:If no-one has can think of a poach earlier than John Gallagher, then it looks like New Zealand take the honours as rugby's first poachers. That's quite fitting , given how many innovations they've introduced ~~to the sport~~ succesful poaching.

by TJ Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:08 pm

Shifty wrote:.............................

Steve Shingler is another example,............. Truth be told he'd probably would of had 40 caps for Scotland by now, as they have been very weak in the center in recent years. ..................

I doubt that very much. He would have had to fight for places with Bennett, Dunbar, Taylor and Scott let alone Horne. He would have only got caps when they were injured. Centre is the only real position of strength Scotland have tho injuries have cost them

by TJ Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:11 pm

Fanster wrote:
TJ wrote:Shinglers is worse for his " I always wanted to play for scotland shtick"

Thats different to Maitland talking about his granny imprinting Scottish culture on him, and how he hates the English blah blah blah.

Both played U20 for another country, both wanted to play int rugby and Scotland offered both an opportunity. Infact I could suggest now Maitland has his name in the ring, and will be selected he left Scotland at the first possible opportunity despite them wanting to renew his contract.

Mai9tland played for years in Scotland and left because he wanted to play full back and could not get a game at FB in Scotland - I don't know how genuine his Scottish allegiance was but he gave more to the country than Shingler did for sure. He did not leave at the fisrt opportunity. He continued for a couple of seasons after first being selected - and his game had got stale anyway

by Guest Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:15 pm

Fanster wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:If no-one has can think of a poach earlier than John Gallagher, then it looks like New Zealand take the honours as rugby's first poachers. That's quite fitting , given how many innovations they've introduced ~~to the sport~~ succesful poaching.

You keep mentioning John Gallagher like it's significant, it's embarrassing. You need to go much bigger ~~than that also ran gingernut~~. How about Dave Gallaher from the original All Blacks. He was Irish and even gave his life for Britain so he must have been a good stick.

ps. John Gallagher was actually pretty good but he was a ginger.

by Fanster Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:17 pm

TJ wrote:
Shifty wrote:.............................

Steve Shingler is another example,............. Truth be told he'd probably would of had 40 caps for Scotland by now, as they have been very weak in the center in recent years. ..................

I doubt that very much. He would have had to fight for places with Bennett, Dunbar, Taylor and Scott let alone Horne. He would have only got caps when they were injured. Centre is the only real position of strength Scotland have tho injuries have cost them

Well Scott, Dunbar, Horne and Taylor wouldn't have made their debuts before Shingler wouldve made around 10 caps, Bennett was still playing U20's at cap 20. Plus with Scottish 10 options it's probably not unfair to say Shingler could be somewhere near 40 caps, probably not in contention right now tho.

by Fanster Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:21 pm

TJ wrote:
Fanster wrote:
TJ wrote:Shinglers is worse for his " I always wanted to play for scotland shtick"

Thats different to Maitland talking about his granny imprinting Scottish culture on him, and how he hates the English blah blah blah.

Both played U20 for another country, both wanted to play int rugby and Scotland offered both an opportunity. Infact I could suggest now Maitland has his name in the ring, and will be selected he left Scotland at the first possible opportunity despite them wanting to renew his contract.

Mai9tland played for years in Scotland and left because he wanted to play full back and could not get a game at FB in Scotland - I don't know how genuine his Scottish allegiance was but he gave more to the country than Shingler did for sure. He did not leave at the fisrt opportunity. He continued for a couple of seasons after first being selected - and his game had got stale anyway

Maitland was given a chance to give something to Scotland, who are you to say Shingler wouldn't have given/taken just as much.

Unless i'm wrong I thought Maitland signed a 3 year contract with a view to challenge for international caps, contract over he refused to negotiate and signed with a low end prem team, who may well get relegated...

Wonder if he'll look for a return to Glasgow if they do, you know, to give so much back to Scottish rugby again?

by TJ Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:30 pm

Maitland wanted to play FB and couldn't get a game playing FB in scotland - its a simple as that. He went south for less money for a chance to develop at FB and its backfired badly for him

I don't remebemer Maitland draping himself in Tartan ( metophorically) but it might have happened

Yes Maitland can be viewed as a mercenary but Shingler is the worst case ( bar perhaps Poutney) that I can remember. I cannot forgive his obvious nonsense about always loving scotland and always wanting to play for them when it was so patently untrue. I don't know about Maitland but many Kiwis are proud of the scottish ( and welsh) heritage

by Fanster Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:37 pm

TJ wrote:Maitland wanted to play FB and couldn't get a game playing FB in scotland - its a simple as that. He went south for less money for a chance to develop at FB and its backfired badly for him

I don't remebemer Maitland draping himself in Tartan ( metophorically) but it might have happened

Yes Maitland can be viewed as a mercenary but Shingler is the worst case ( bar perhaps Poutney) that I can remember. I cannot forgive his obvious nonsense about always loving scotland and always wanting to play for them when it was so patently untrue. I don't know about Maitland but many Kiwis are proud of the scottish ( and welsh) heritage

Pretty key part of that, take the emotions out and you'd see Shingler tried to do what Anscombe, MAitland and Hardie all did.

by mikey_dragon Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:38 pm

Maitland could return, given LI are likely to be relegated.

Shingler was such an odd case, yet the WRU were perpetrated as the bad guys in that one - they did nothing wrong. It was Andy Robinson who seemed to scour the globe for any player of any capability, who was also eligible for Scotland. They had some good players but also capped a lot of guff. Scotland still carry a bit of a bad reputation for that IMO, but look as if they have moved away from it. Nick Mallet also seemed to be doing that with Italy. Shingler wouldn't have anywhere near 40 caps for Scotland, he'd have been lucky to get 4. The guy had a lot of chances, experiences but never kicked on - welsh premiership player at best.

by mikey_dragon Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:43 pm

Fanster wrote:
TJ wrote:Maitland wanted to play FB and couldn't get a game playing FB in scotland - its a simple as that. He went south for less money for a chance to develop at FB and its backfired badly for him

I don't remebemer Maitland draping himself in Tartan ( metophorically) but it might have happened

Yes Maitland can be viewed as a mercenary but Shingler is the worst case ( bar perhaps Poutney) that I can remember. I cannot forgive his obvious nonsense about always loving scotland and always wanting to play for them when it was so patently untrue. I don't know about Maitland but many Kiwis are proud of the scottish ( and welsh) heritage

Pretty key part of that, take the emotions out and you'd see Shingler tried to do what Anscombe, MAitland and Hardie all did.

I don't remember Anscombe claiming to have an undying love for Wales tbh. I remember the Shingler debacle pretty well. He was claiming to have harboured aspirations of always wanting to play for Scotland all his life, or something along those lines. No welsh rugby playing kid grows up thinking that. The thing is though, a number of Scotland posters on 606 were buying into the claims Shingler was making about wanting to play for Scotland, so it must have been desperation all round. Shingler was nothing but an ill-advised moron, he made a mockery of all three parties with his actions.

by TJ Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:47 pm

I don't think anyone bought his schtick on wanting to play for Scotland - some fans wanted to poach a decent player allright but believing he always wanted to play for Scotland - only the deluded would believe that.

by mikey_dragon Sat Apr 16, 2016 5:56 pm

TJ I wouldn't make it up. It was the stuff I was reading at the time, granted Scotland was in a lower place than now, those fans must have believed getting Shingler would be to their team's benefit. He has a Scottish mum I think, and I was being told stuff like his mum may have raised him to be Scottish, etc. I think that would be difficult living in West Wales all your life with an English father, but that wasn't coming across at the time. The two people to look the stupidest there was Robinson and Shingler IMO - so I do agree that the Shingler case is worse but I'm not forgetting that some Scotland fans were buying into it.

There's MaCnicholl who is joining the Scarlets btw, doesn't he have a Scottish parent or grandparent? He's being drawn up as future international. I think if his ancestry was Welsh we would be less welcoming, unless he could prove himself over a prolonged period.

by TJ Sat Apr 16, 2016 6:13 pm

Fair enough - all I saw was folk wanting to poach the player and to me his pronouncements were obvious rubbish

Robinson was an absolute clown I agree.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:02 am

ebop wrote:
Fanster wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:If no-one has can think of a poach earlier than John Gallagher, then it looks like New Zealand take the honours as rugby's first poachers. That's quite fitting , given how many innovations they've introduced ~~to the sport~~ succesful poaching.

You keep mentioning John Gallagher like it's significant, it's embarrassing. You need to go much bigger ~~than that also ran gingernut~~. How about Dave Gallaher from the original All Blacks. He was Irish and even gave his life for Britain so he must have been a good stick.

ps. John Gallagher was actually pretty good but he was a ginger.

I'm not fixated on Gallagher, I just haven't come up with an earlier clear example of poaching. I'm sure there's one out there.

Dave Gallaher doesn't count as a poach for me, because his family emigrated and he grew up in New Zealand. Prince Obolensky is the same in England.

A poach is when a player is given incentives/privileges to move to another country (or stay, if he's already there) because of his rugby prowess. By my totally arbitrary criteria, Manu Tuilagi is a poach, because he was granted a visa after overstaying illegally, and that only came about because the club and community rallied in his support. What separates Gallagher and Tuilagi, is that eligibility rules at the time didn't commit Gallagher to only playing for New Zealand. In the twilight of his career, he turned out for Ireland 'A'.

Both John Gallagher and Manu Tuilagi are examples of poaches at a club level which ultimately benefited the national side. By contrast, New Zealand's effort to poach Martin Johnson was always aimed at having him available for the All Blacks. That's mostly how poaching takes place these days.

There was almost a much earlier case of New Zealand poaching with rugby Hall of Famer Yoshihiro “Demi” Sakata. Sakata had already played for Japan but was available for NZ when he was invited to play with Canterbury in 1970. He turned out for NZ Universities and NZ Barbarians, and was under serious consideration for a place in the All Blacks squad, but didn't make the cut.

by Not grey and not a ghost Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:41 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
ebop wrote:
Fanster wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:If no-one has can think of a poach earlier than John Gallagher, then it looks like New Zealand take the honours as rugby's first poachers. That's quite fitting , given how many innovations they've introduced ~~to the sport~~ succesful poaching.

You keep mentioning John Gallagher like it's significant, it's embarrassing. You need to go much bigger ~~than that also ran gingernut~~. How about Dave Gallaher from the original All Blacks. He was Irish and even gave his life for Britain so he must have been a good stick.

ps. John Gallagher was actually pretty good but he was a ginger.
I'm not fixated on Gallagher, I just haven't come up with an earlier clear example of poaching. I'm sure there's one out there.

Dave Gallaher doesn't count as a poach for me, because his family emigrated and he grew up in New Zealand. Prince Obolensky is the same in England.

A poach is when a player is given incentives/privileges to move to another country (or stay, if he's already there) because of his rugby prowess. By my totally arbitrary criteria, Manu Tuilagi is a poach, because he was granted a visa after overstaying illegally, and that only came about because the club and community rallied in his support. What separates Gallagher and Tuilagi, is that eligibility rules at the time didn't commit Gallagher to only playing for New Zealand. In the twilight of his career, he turned out for Ireland 'A'.

Both John Gallagher and Manu Tuilagi are examples of poaches at a club level which ultimately benefited the national side. By contrast, New Zealand's effort to poach Martin Johnson was always aimed at having him available for the All Blacks. That's mostly how poaching takes place these days.

There was almost a much earlier case of New Zealand poaching with rugby Hall of Famer Yoshihiro “Demi” Sakata. Sakata had already played for Japan but was available for NZ when he was invited to play with Canterbury in 1970. He turned out for NZ Universities and NZ Barbarians, and was under serious consideration for a place in the All Blacks squad, but didn't make the cut.

How far back do you want to go with the poaching. The early 1920's great Scottish backline included an All Black and Wallaby captain in their ranks. Early home union teams sometimes included Kiwi's, Aussies and South Africans. The most common being England Scotland due to students studying at universities. Alfred Fe3ll for instance was a hugely influential figure in the development of Edinburgh rugby, and played for Scotland, but refused to play against the touring AB's in 1906. By the way Jamie Salmon the England player played for the AB's in the 80's, and Martin Johnson played for NZ under 21's, so Gallager was preceded by others. NZ and Australia also included players who moved. For instance a number of NZ players moved to Australia to play the Lions in their first tour in the late 19th Century. Des Conner played for the Wallabies then the All Blacks in

Having said that it's different from today. Up until the mid 90's the game was amateur and players could change between natures without much in the way of qualification criteria.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Apr 17, 2016 2:55 am

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:How far back do you want to go with the poaching. The early 1920's great Scottish backline included an All Black and Wallaby captain in their ranks...

As far back as anyone can remember.

However, in your Scotland example, I suspect there were no rugby incentives offered to prompt a move. They were just playing because that's where their life/family/work had taken them.

I'm thinking about cases where a players has had a job and visa lined up to get him to move home, or encourage him to stay, specifically because he's good at rugby.

by Not grey and not a ghost Sun Apr 17, 2016 3:19 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Not grey and not a ghost wrote:How far back do you want to go with the poaching. The early 1920's great Scottish backline included an All Black and Wallaby captain in their ranks...
As far back as anyone can remember.

However, in your Scotland example, I suspect there were no rugby incentives offered to prompt a move. They were just playing because that's where their life/family/work had taken them.

I'm thinking about cases where a players has had a job and visa lined up to get him to move home, or encourage him to stay, specifically because he's good at rugby.

I guess we're really looking at the professional era. Anyone looked at the make up of the Junior squads in the French clubs, players from the pacific, South Africa England etc moving at the age of 17 so they can qualify as French and clubs can meet the national requirement. Probably already mentioned.

It did happen in the amateur era. I've met people who moved from NZ to Ireland and England to play (semi) professionally in the amateur era. One of my university friends went to Ireland following University. It was in the Amateur era. Her boyfriend had a job, house and car preorganised by the club. I couldn't comment on visa, etc, but he was definately going to play rugby.

Chris Laidlaw has written about semi-professional rugby in Europe in the early 70's. There was a long line of NZ, Australian and South African players playing in Italy in the 80's. P.s. Rhodes scholarships were tied to rugby/sport. Universities knew what they were getting. There's an argument the pressures been around for along time. From my memory the Scottish RU was pretty peed with Fell's refusal to play the AB's and it played a part in his later non selection and there was a fair amount of pressure for him to play.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:43 am

Not grey and not a ghost wrote:...There was a long line of NZ, Australian and South African players playing in Italy in the 80's.

Good call on Italy. I hadn't realized John Kirwan went out so early. He was on Treviso's books from 1985, so an Italian club has officially provided a World Cup winner. He was still down as playing for Auckland (the province) at the same time, so goodness knows how that worked out. Of course, he might have just gone to Italy for the pasta, but you suspect not.

Still, 1985 is a year later than Gallagher to NZ, so Kirwan doesn't quite get there. Seems like a promising avenue of inquiry, though.

by lostinwales Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:01 am

There was an argentinian prop who played for Oz. Can't remember the date off the top of my head

by **Rugby Fan** Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:26 am

lostinwales wrote:There was an argentinian prop who played for Oz. Can't remember the date off the top of my head

'Topo' Rodriguez. He was 1984 too, and Warringah RC helped him settle, so that counts in my book.

by Shifty Sun Apr 17, 2016 6:37 pm

TJ wrote:
Shifty wrote:.............................

Steve Shingler is another example,............. Truth be told he'd probably would of had 40 caps for Scotland by now, as they have been very weak in the center in recent years. ..................

I doubt that very much. He would have had to fight for places with Bennett, Dunbar, Taylor and Scott let alone Horne. He would have only got caps when they were injured. Centre is the only real position of strength Scotland have tho injuries have cost them

I nearly put in a disclaimer in case a Scottish poster bit my head off on that one, but I will point out that Shingler was added to the Scotland squad in 2012, EVERY one of those 5 players you listed were first capped in 2013 or later! No argument Scotland have depth, and quality in the centers at the moment, and no argument that in 2015 Shingler is not good enough for Scotland. In fact Shingler's competition would of been Sean Lamont, Nick De Luca, Max Evans and, Graeme Morrison no offence but he'd walk that lot, basically you were shoving wingers into the center because you had such a poor pool of talent there. If memory serves me right Nick De Luca got yellow carded 2 times in that 6 nations for stupid play including shirt pulling, in fact I remember his stupidity was the reason Wales won that year. Also, didn't Max Evans pick a card up against Ireland? I think the shambles the Scottish centers were in the 2012 with a Scotland white wash, was the reason that Scotland started looking for new blood. Shingler is a big lump and can play Fly Half so I think it's entirely possible he'd of had maybe 10 or so caps in that first season, 10 more in the second, and then moved down to the bench after 2013, I think 30-40 caps wouldn't be too far off to be honest, his ability to play across the back line (10-15) would probably of ensured him a place on the bench, as well as he's such a big lump.

by mikey_dragon Sun Apr 17, 2016 7:56 pm

Shifty you're seriously overrating Shingler.... I can't quite figure out who you have him confused with?

by Guest Sun Apr 17, 2016 8:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Shifty you're seriously overrating Shingler.... I can't quite figure out who you have him confused with?

We've had our differences lately Mikey, but I agree wholeheartedly with this. Shingler hasn't shown anything to suggest he's much good at all to be honest.

by TJ Sun Apr 17, 2016 9:29 pm

He might have got a few caps but 40 - not a chance

by fa0019 Mon Apr 18, 2016 9:54 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
lostinwales wrote:There was an argentinian prop who played for Oz. Can't remember the date off the top of my head
'Topo' Rodriguez. He was 1984 too, and Warringah RC helped him settle, so that counts in my book.

Sure we're not talking about Noreiga who won the world cup in 1999 with AUS whilst played for ARG before that?

by fa0019 Mon Apr 18, 2016 10:07 am

Rugby Fan wrote:
Not grey and not a ghost wrote:...There was a long line of NZ, Australian and South African players playing in Italy in the 80's.
Good call on Italy. I hadn't realized John Kirwan went out so early. He was on Treviso's books from 1985, so an Italian club has officially provided a World Cup winner. He was still down as playing for Auckland (the province) at the same time, so goodness knows how that worked out. Of course, he might have just gone to Italy for the pasta, but you suspect not.

Still, 1985 is a year later than Gallagher to NZ, so Kirwan doesn't quite get there. Seems like a promising avenue of inquiry, though.

A lot of players went to Italy during the 80s. They all went and got mickey mouse jobs which paid paid handsomely. Guys like Kirwan, Campo, Naas Botha, Nick Mallett.
I recall a story about Bath trying to hire David Campese in his pomp. When enquired he said, "sure I'm interested... I need a job though". When asked what sort by the Bath chief he said "one that pays £60k a year". "£60k a year" retorted the chief in surprise!.... "na mate, £60k for the six months I'll be over for". Remember this was 25+ years ago.

Bath in many ways were the top amateur club of the final decades because they recruited chaps like Ben Clarke originally at Sarries etc with cushy jobs which enabled them to take loads of time off for training, touring etc, paid well and wasn't too taxing on their bodies... i.e. public relations. But they weren't good enough jobs for chaps like Campo.

by **Rugby Fan** Mon Apr 18, 2016 12:08 pm

fa0019 wrote:
Rugby Fan wrote:
lostinwales wrote:There was an argentinian prop who played for Oz. Can't remember the date off the top of my head
'Topo' Rodriguez. He was 1984 too, and Warringah RC helped him settle, so that counts in my book.

Sure we're not talking about Noreiga who won the world cup in 1999 with AUS whilst played for ARG before that?

Enrique 'Topo' Rodríguez is an earlier version of Patricio Noriega. He was part of the 1984 Grand Slam tour. I saw him say that his toughest opponent was Iain Milne, who he faced that year.

Actually, Patricio Noriega didn't get to play in the 1999 World Cup, because he was injured.

by Sponsored content

England want to poach another Welsh player

England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player

Re: England want to poach another Welsh player