England want to poach another Welsh player

by LordDowlais Mon 11 Apr 2016, 3:39 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well. if Gatland does not want to cap him, somebody else does, Thomas Young, the son of Welsh and British Lion Dai Young is ripping up trees for Wasps apparently, and England want in, they have already made enquiries and the ball is now in Thomas's court, who do you think he will end up pledging his allegiances to ?

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-make-audacious-bid-entice-11168337

I don't think a country as small as Wales can afford to lose out on players myself.

by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:01 pm

If you flipped the scenario around and he was English playing for a welsh region, getting capped at under 20's (If England used their under 20's as their designated team) would hamper his chances at a Welsh region due to the NWQ limit's. I thought this scenario is what you'd like as you've previously stated you don't want untested NWQ's at regions.

You cant bemoan one nation, when we'd do the same.

by True Raven Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:03 pm

lostinwales wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its also wrong to force a kid to choose at that age just on circumstances of where they were born when they grew up in another country. All of those lads would probably be equally honored to play for either country

Who said anything about forcing anyone ?

A young Welsh kid born and raised in Swansea cannot represent his country at age grade level as it might affect him getting a pro contract with Gloucester.

Do you think that scenario is fair ?

Why should AP teams fill their squads with non EQ players and hinder the development of EQ players? Of course they do - but then there are incentives for them not to which leads to a balance - and which means if they have to choose between 2 players of similar ability and one is EQ and the other not then they will keep the EQ one.

And then we come full circle and you can see why Mathew Protheroe is happy playing for England under 20's as he wishes to gain a pro contract.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:04 pm

Gotta love the diversion tactic.

OP is complete tripe, but rather than sort that out we get dragged down a different blind alley.

by BamBam Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:07 pm

So LordDowlais has no response to his nonsensical OP where he clearly either a)didn't bother to read the article, b) is too thick to understand it, c) is a deliberate WUM.

Instead he chooses to deflect by banging on about a kid making the choice to play for who the hell he likes, claiming he's been "poached" when of course no such thing has happened

Sounds about par for the course, I'm sure I'll get a ridiculously OTT post full of hot air and bluster as a response

by Knowsit17 Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:12 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its also wrong to force a kid to choose at that age just on circumstances of where they were born when they grew up in another country. All of those lads would probably be equally honored to play for either country

Who said anything about forcing anyone ?

A young Welsh kid born and raised in Swansea cannot represent his country at age grade level as it might affect him getting a pro contract with Gloucester.

Do you think that scenario is fair ?

You've just worded the situation in a way that suits your argument. Shock horror, that never happens around here.

There was never any suggestion that Protheroe cannot play for Wales. He probably had a think about the situation, taking all factors into account and made an informed, independent decision to play for Gloucester and England age grades. If you've got a grievance why not take it up with him?

Many full Wales internationals already play in England anyway, so you're less-than-subtle suggestions that English clubs are only interested in signing players to convert them falls flat on its face. Your original point about Thomas Young already has.

by Sin é Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:26 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its also wrong to force a kid to choose at that age just on circumstances of where they were born when they grew up in another country. All of those lads would probably be equally honored to play for either country

Who said anything about forcing anyone ?

A young Welsh kid born and raised in Swansea cannot represent his country at age grade level as it might affect him getting a pro contract with Gloucester.

Do you think that scenario is fair ?

Its simple to resolve then. Don't force kids to make decisions that can affect them in later life if they are not ready to make them. Why don't the WRU select another team to do that.

by majesticimperialman Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:33 pm

England want to poach another Welsh player

WHY?

it is not like the are world beaters now is it. Whistle

by geoff999rugby Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:38 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its also wrong to force a kid to choose at that age just on circumstances of where they were born when they grew up in another country. All of those lads would probably be equally honored to play for either country

Who said anything about forcing anyone ?

A young Welsh kid born and raised in Swansea cannot represent his country at age grade level as it might affect him getting a pro contract with Gloucester.

Do you think that scenario is fair ?

Completely fair.
Why shouldn't English rugby protect the best interest of the English game.

by geoff999rugby Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:41 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

by BamBam Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:44 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

Perhaps so, but its a moot point because he's not qualified for England!

by funnyExiledScot Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:45 pm

GeordieFalcon wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:Poor Wales. Why do players choose not to play for them?

He has....

I know. I was just adding another layer of stupidity to this already stupid thread.

by geoff999rugby Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:54 pm

BamBam wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

Perhaps so, but its a moot point because he's not qualified for England!

Wont be moot if he scores the try that wins Wales the tripe crown and denies it to England Very Happy

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:55 pm

Barnes comments about Young are the same he makes every month about a "new" player. His attempt to show he has his finger on the pulse.

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:57 pm

Welsh Players and Coaches poached by other Countries wrote:
Ian Jones
Lee Jones
Felix Jones
Eddie Jones
Grace Jones

by majesticimperialman Tue 12 Apr 2016, 2:58 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
BamBam wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

Perhaps so, but its a moot point because he's not qualified for England!

Wont be moot if he scores the try that wins Wales the tripe crown and denies it to England

Wales will have to pla better than they did this year. To deny England the TRiple crown Very Happy

by **LondonTiger** Tue 12 Apr 2016, 3:02 pm

Tripe Crown sounds about right.

Goes with the Gran Slam and the Wold Cup

by **RiscaGame** Tue 12 Apr 2016, 3:42 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
BamBam wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

Perhaps so, but its a moot point because he's not qualified for England!

Wont be moot if he scores the try that wins Wales the tripe crown and denies it to England

Wales will have to pla better than they did this year. To deny England the TRiple crown

Well plaed Madge. That was great banter.

by Knowsit17 Tue 12 Apr 2016, 4:20 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
BamBam wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

Perhaps so, but its a moot point because he's not qualified for England!

Wont be moot if he scores the try that wins Wales the tripe crown and denies it to England

Wales will have to pla better than they did this year. To deny England the TRiple crown

You're right. Wales may need to play a full 15-20 minutes of the next game if they're to win.

by majesticimperialman Tue 12 Apr 2016, 4:25 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
BamBam wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

Perhaps so, but its a moot point because he's not qualified for England!

Wont be moot if he scores the try that wins Wales the tripe crown and denies it to England

Wales will have to pla better than they did this year. To deny England the TRiple crown

You're right. Wales may need to play a full 15-20 minutes of the next game if they're to win.

It might help if you play for the ( full eighty ) minutes. Instead of the last 15-20 minutes of the game. thumbsup

by Knowsit17 Tue 12 Apr 2016, 4:31 pm

Preferably yes but it only took 10 mins to undo most of England's hard-fought lead last time out so an extra 5 might do it.

by majesticimperialman Tue 12 Apr 2016, 4:36 pm

Knowsit17 wrote:Preferably yes but it only took 10 mins to undo most of England's hard-fought lead last time out so an extra 5 might do it.

That is what i mean. Wales seemed to be a sleep for the first 65 minutes or so.

It was only the charge down by Biggar that seem to wake the welsh team up and make them realise they was behind her. We better start and play or we will lose. But as they say it was too little to late.

by propdavid_london Tue 12 Apr 2016, 4:55 pm

Correct me if I am wrong but you are only tying yourself to a country if the designated 2nd team plays a match against another designated 2nd team.
So, when Wales U20's play England U20s in the junior WC then it wont country tie any of the players as the Saxons is the designated 2nd team.
But, When the Welsh play Scots U20s that will in effect be a country tying match......

With regards to Young.......he is tied to Wales for the rest of his career - end of. As far as I am aware, there are no loopholes.
Someone from the RFU making an enquiry isn't an attempted poach......why would the RFU have records on foreign players?

by Gooseberry Tue 12 Apr 2016, 4:58 pm

LordDowlais wrote:
Sin é wrote:Its also wrong to force a kid to choose at that age just on circumstances of where they were born when they grew up in another country. All of those lads would probably be equally honored to play for either country

Who said anything about forcing anyone ?

A young Welsh kid born and raised in Swansea cannot represent his country at age grade level as it might affect him getting a pro contract with Gloucester.

Do you think that scenario is fair ?

Its the WRU's choice to make the U20s their A team, blame them

by Sgt_Pooly Tue 12 Apr 2016, 5:10 pm

geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

I doubt that.

by WELL-PAST-IT Tue 12 Apr 2016, 7:28 pm

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

I doubt that.

That makes me laugh, since when has Barnes ( I pick my MotM on a Wednesday ) ever known anything about forwards and forward play. Not sure he ever entered a ruck or maul in his life, other than to be buried underneath one when tackled. He certainly didn't get involved by being the tackler, he used to run away when a forward looked like running at him and hide behind his handbag.

As he was born in Wales, to Welsh parents and didn't come over her until 2014 he is not qualified for England anyway. Someone has mentioned that he may have been capped for Wales at U20 level, Wasps web site states that he come through all the age group levels so will never be qualified for England. Perhaps we should stick to proper Englishmen like Hughes or Ewers.

by mikey_dragon Tue 12 Apr 2016, 10:36 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Tomas Francis.

Blues weren't/aren't short of flankers so it made sense for him (Thomas Young) to move on, nice to see him get recognition for playing well though. I was reading up the other day about one of his U20 colleagues also pulling up trees for Agen, a certain Luke Hamilton. Players need to sometimes move around to a new environment, at whatever age, to grow as a player. We've seen players come to and go from Wales and improve, sometimes they get poached I guess but that's the residency and grandparents rule for you.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Apr 2016, 9:03 am

We did manage to poach Ben Morgan as well, just before he qualified for Wales. We do have history.

by geoff999rugby Wed 13 Apr 2016, 9:06 am

Sgt_Pooly wrote:
geoff999rugby wrote:
Sgt_Pooly wrote:I'm not being funny, but he's nowhere near good enough to play for England. He's looked decent in a good Wasps side, but so has Gopperth.

I reckon you will live to regret that - he could be a very useful player.
Already is putting Haskell under pressure for a starting spot (Stuart Barnes already reckons he is better)
Only 23 and will get better

I doubt that.

Which bit - he could be a useful player, he will get better, he is pushing Haskell hard, Stuart Barnes thinks he is already better

by mikey_dragon Wed 13 Apr 2016, 10:54 am

Geoff you're wasting your time mate. The guy just hates Welsh players and thinks all England players are world class. Just mentioning the name AlunWyn Jones makes him go crazy.

by Geordie Wed 13 Apr 2016, 10:57 am

mikey_dragon wrote:Geoff you're wasting your time mate. The guy just hates Welsh players and thinks all England players are world class. Just mentioning the name AlunWyn Jones makes him go crazy.

Actually to be fair that's most of us! Wink

by HammerofThunor Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:18 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Tomas Francis.

I meant Welsh player rather than the other way round. I know there are loads of English players in the Welsh squad Smile

by HammerofThunor Wed 13 Apr 2016, 12:20 pm

Oh, and until the U20 have eligibility criteria, as defined by World Rugby Regulation, I don't think it should be used to remove eligibility based on World Rugby Regulation.

It may exist but never seen it.

by mikey_dragon Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:06 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Tomas Francis.

I meant Welsh player rather than the other way round. I know there are loads of English players in the Welsh squad

Yeah I read it wrong - are there? I count one/two, Francis and Cuthbert but still not sure what the back-story is with the latter.

To answer your original question, I think it was Josh Lewsey...

by topofthemoon Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:08 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:Oh, and until the U20 have eligibility criteria, as defined by World Rugby Regulation, I don't think it should be used to remove eligibility based on World Rugby Regulation.

It may exist but never seen it.

There is eligibility criteria for any side nominated as that country's next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative team. So if Wales have nominated their under-20s then only players who meet the eligibility criteria can be selected whereas for England, who haven't nominated their under-20s as such, there are no such restrictions.

by topofthemoon Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:16 pm

propdavid_london wrote:Correct me if I am wrong but you are only tying yourself to a country if the designated 2nd team plays a match against another designated 2nd team.
So, when Wales U20's play England U20s in the junior WC then it wont country tie any of the players as the Saxons is the designated 2nd team.
But, When the Welsh play Scots U20s that will in effect be a country tying match......

With regards to Young.......he is tied to Wales for the rest of his career - end of. As far as I am aware, there are no loopholes.
Someone from the RFU making an enquiry isn't an attempted poach......why would the RFU have records on foreign players?

For those sides nominated as their country's next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative team any game in the Junior World Championship or Junior World Trophy or 6 Nations will tie players for that side no matter the opposition. Outwith these tournaments games would need to be against another side nominated as next senior etc. to tie those who play.

BTW Scotland u20s aren't the Scottish next senior side, this designation is still with the A team - although they haven't played since 2014!

by propdavid_london Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:24 pm

thanks for the clarification topofthemoon....
Makes sense as you would'nt want players dropping in and out of squads in the middle of a tournament depending on who the opposition would be.

by **LondonTiger** Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:36 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Tomas Francis.

I meant Welsh player rather than the other way round. I know there are loads of English players in the Welsh squad

Yeah I read it wrong - are there? I count one/two, Francis and Cuthbert but still not sure what the back-story is with the latter.

To answer your original question, I think it was Josh Lewsey...

Josh Lewsey - born in Kent, raise in Hertfordshire, schooled in Watford, University in Bristol, Club Rugby for Bristol and Wasps. how in the name of a flying fig roll does he count as poached?

by **RiscaGame** Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:49 pm

Probably Dewi is it?

by **LondonTiger** Wed 13 Apr 2016, 1:52 pm

I would count Ben Morgan as being poached really as it was the Scarlets who developed him.

by HammerofThunor Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:12 pm

topofthemoon wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Oh, and until the U20 have eligibility criteria, as defined by World Rugby Regulation, I don't think it should be used to remove eligibility based on World Rugby Regulation.

It may exist but never seen it.
There is eligibility criteria for any side nominated as that country's next senior fifteen-a-side National Representative team. So if Wales have nominated their under-20s then only players who meet the eligibility criteria can be selected whereas for England, who haven't nominated their under-20s as such, there are no such restrictions.

That's a damned good point.

by mikey_dragon Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:40 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:Out of curiosity, who was the last Wales player poached?

Tomas Francis.

I meant Welsh player rather than the other way round. I know there are loads of English players in the Welsh squad

Yeah I read it wrong - are there? I count one/two, Francis and Cuthbert but still not sure what the back-story is with the latter.

To answer your original question, I think it was Josh Lewsey...

Josh Lewsey - born in Kent, raise in Hertfordshire, schooled in Watford, University in Bristol, Club Rugby for Bristol and Wasps. how in the name of a flying fig roll does he count as poached?

Oh well here is one dicktard who's off the foe list, just in time for a bite too.

Lewsey - simple really. He was often spotted sporting a Wales jersey Wink

. You lot have previously tried applying a similar set of criteria to Warburton, so I've done it to Lewsey.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:43 pm

I still don't get why people try to get replies for stupid posts and think that somehow makes them a winner.

by mikey_dragon Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:47 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I still don't get why people try to get replies for stupid posts and think that somehow makes them a winner.

I don't get why people lie either, eh 7.5.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:49 pm

You continue to do that. But I think the answer relates to the fact you're after 'bites'.

by mikey_dragon Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:54 pm

No I'm after sensible discussion. Bites are a bonus. The former here is sometimes difficult with England fans, unfortunately.

by LordDowlais Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:56 pm

The only player you could honestly say was poached from England by Wales is Tomas Francis, or perhaps Jake Ball.

Every other player has come up through the Welsh system or is Welsh qualified.

by No 7&1/2 Wed 13 Apr 2016, 2:58 pm

Every player who's played for England is English qualified.

by LordDowlais Wed 13 Apr 2016, 3:02 pm

OK then if you want to be pedantic, the replace Welsh qualified with actually being Welsh.

by mikey_dragon Wed 13 Apr 2016, 3:03 pm

Jake Ball came through the Perth (western Australia) system.

by Sgt_Pooly Wed 13 Apr 2016, 3:12 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:Geoff you're wasting your time mate. The guy just hates Welsh players and thinks all England players are world class. Just mentioning the name AlunWyn Jones makes him go crazy.

I don't hate Welsh players and I'd struggle to name an English world class player.

I've not seen anything in the guy to suggest he'll make a decent international. AWJ is a good lock, but not as good as many on here make out. He's not a world class lock.

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