Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

by LordDowlais Wed Apr 13, 2016 5:36 pm

First topic message reminder :

Why should Zebre qualify for the CC ? It is a joke, and it is a scourge on the league that a team that can ship 160 points in 4 away games can get to play in the top level European competition.

[size=30]Peter Jackson column: Stripe me! How can this Zebre side be Champions?[/size]

Zebre have lost their last four away matches by scores that could double up as opening stands at the T20 World Cup – 52-0, 32-0, 47-0 and 29-0. It adds up to a cumulative score of 0-160.
Despite those results, Zebre are on course to take their place in what Europe’s clubs call the Champions’ Cup, a grandiose description for a tournament supposedly reserved for the crème de la crème.
Edinburgh stand to suffer more than their Welsh rivals, ironically so given that they duly followed Leinster, Ulster and Munster in taking maximum-point advantage of the depleted Italians at Murrayfield on Friday night. Scotland’s capital team may have lost a few games too many but they stand alone as the only club to have done the double over the champions, Glasgow.
Ospreys, twice crowned Pro 12 champions with not one but two Grand Final victories over Leinster in Dublin to their credit, supplied the Lions with five players for their last tour and may well supply five more for the next one, to New Zealand next year. Despite their proven quality and ever-presence on the starting grid for Europe’s premier competition over the last 13 seasons, the Swansea-based side will be disqualified from the Champions’ Cup even if they recover sufficiently to finish seventh.
Some will say serve them right for a season of under-achievement, that nobody gets a free ride into Europe because it’s a competitive world – except that argument doesn’t apply when it comes to rewarding one Italian team for avoiding bottom place.
The same fate awaiting Edinburgh or the Ospreys could also very easily apply to a third club, Cardiff Blues. They are in the same boat and therefore in much the same danger of running aground despite having scored the most tries and most points going into the weekend round of matches.
Although seven places are available to Pro 12 teams in the Champions’ Cup, seventh gets whoever finishes there nowhere. Rules are rules and the multi-national dimension of the Pro 12 requires that all four countries must be represented, including Italy, irrespective of where their two teams finish.
Treviso qualified from second last place because they lost only 18 of their 22 matches against Zebre’s 19. Both are still in the bottom two except that Zebre have reversed the roles on the strength of a Christmas double over their compatriots.
Connacht were sacrificed last season although their seventh place did earn them entry to an abortive play-off series involving Gloucester and Bordeaux. The intrusion of the World Cup leaves no room this season for any play-offs. Whoever finishes seventh – Ospreys, Edinburgh or the Cardiff Blues – will go straight into the secondary European Challenge Cup along with all those stranded in the nether regions of the Premiership, Top 14 and Pro 12.
Altruism is a noble quality. Guaranteeing Italy a place at the top table of the club game gives some reason for using the word European in the context of the Champions’ Cup.
It seemed a good idea at the time, one agreed on the basis that the Italian teams would become more competitive. Instead they have become less competitive, jammed in the same reverse gear as the national team.
If the tournament organisers, European Professional Club Rugby, are not already under pressure to review the Italian arrangement, it can be but a matter of time before they are.
The rules, as agreed by the Pro 12 as well as everyone else, dictate that the first four Pro 12 places go to the highest ranked team from Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales. If, for argument’s sake, the top eight finish in the same positions as they were on Friday morning, Connacht (1st), Zebre (11th), Glasgow (6th) and Scarlets (3rd) would fill those four positions.
That leaves three more to be filled by the remainder of the top six – Leinster (2nd), Munster (4th) and Ulster (5th). Ireland, therefore, face the happy prospect of all four provinces making the Champions’ Cup for the first time. Wales face the grim one of their representation being halved to one.
For the chosen few, Europe’s supreme club event brings prestige and commercial clout. In a true meritocracy nobody qualifies for losing four matches out of every five even if that means narrowing the horizon of the tournament and renaming it the FIB (French, Irish, British) Cup.

by PhilBB Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:22 pm

marty2086 wrote:Well Phil, you keep repeating that but a new contract does not equal a new system as history tells us

Im signing off now but its nice seeing you continue to insist you are right and how you clutch to the minutiae to insist on that but you feel free to insist this is me running away

Grow up, Champ. Change is coming, it's obvious to all.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:42 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You think NZ want to decrease the amount of tests they play?

It's not about the number of games they play.

Your original point was that they wanted to reduce the interntional window; were you meaning reduce the window but keep the same number of games?

by marty2086 Wed Apr 27, 2016 2:52 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Well Phil, you keep repeating that but a new contract does not equal a new system as history tells us

Im signing off now but its nice seeing you continue to insist you are right and how you clutch to the minutiae to insist on that but you feel free to insist this is me running away

Grow up, Champ. Change is coming, it's obvious to all.

Grow up? From the guy who continually calls those who disagree with him names? Laugh

by PhilBB Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:02 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Your original point was that they wanted to reduce the interntional window; were you meaning reduce the window but keep the same number of games?

I'm not sure how you've arrived at that question, but you seem confused.

Who is the 'they' you refer to and where did I claim 'they' wanted to reduce the international window? You seem to be conflating the 'theys' there.

New Zealand, you'll note, play international games outside of the international window.

by PhilBB Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:02 pm

marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Well Phil, you keep repeating that but a new contract does not equal a new system as history tells us

Im signing off now but its nice seeing you continue to insist you are right and how you clutch to the minutiae to insist on that but you feel free to insist this is me running away

Grow up, Champ. Change is coming, it's obvious to all.

Grow up? From the guy who continually calls those who disagree with him names?

Not those who disagree, but those who write drivel.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:12 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:Well Phil, you keep repeating that but a new contract does not equal a new system as history tells us

Im signing off now but its nice seeing you continue to insist you are right and how you clutch to the minutiae to insist on that but you feel free to insist this is me running away

Grow up, Champ. Change is coming, it's obvious to all.

Grow up? From the guy who continually calls those who disagree with him names?

Not those who disagree, but those who write drivel.

Well that appears to be everyone who disagrees with you and that seems to be quite a few people, stay classy

by PhilBB Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:19 pm

marty2086 wrote:
Well that appears to be everyone who disagrees with you and that seems to be quite a few people, stay classy

I love the approach of 'I'm not the only idiot'.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 27, 2016 10:21 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Well that appears to be everyone who disagrees with you and that seems to be quite a few people, stay classy

I love the approach of 'I'm not the only idiot'.

by No 7&1/2 Wed Apr 27, 2016 11:43 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Reduce the international window? No, not a serious option.

Oh, I don't know. 2020 is coming.

So...

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 1:50 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
Reduce the international window? No, not a serious option.

Oh, I don't know. 2020 is coming.

So...

'I don't know'.

Dear God.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 2:03 pm

So, after that little diversion which had nothing to do with reducing the international game we go back to the original point. It's not a serious option. Well done in trying to distract from that though, including all the little insults!

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:06 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So, after that little diversion which had nothing to do with reducing the international game we go back to the original point. It's not a serious option. Well done in trying to distract from that though, including all the little insults!

What?

Reducing the international windows is a serious option.

That doesn't necessarily equate to reducing the international game.

That's not even subtle.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:08 pm

So international players get less than a week to recover between games and, games would be going ahead on weekdays. No it's not a serious option at all.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:10 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So international players get less than a week to recover between games and, games would be going ahead on weekdays. No it's not a serious option at all.

FFS.

Do you not realise that countries who contract all of their players can choose to play games outside of the international windows? Even Wales does it.

You can reduce the windows but not necessarily reduce the number of games played.

This is not a difficult concept to grasp.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:17 pm

I realise that there's games outside the international window, but this was about expanding the Aviva by an additional 4 teams and there being too many games. Your solution was to make the international window shorter. Now you're saying that wouldn't actually have an affect on the amount of games.

Plus if the Welsh were trying to take international players from the league I don't imagine th ePRL would be happy.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:19 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:I realise that there's games outside the international window, but this was about expanding the Aviva by an additional 4 teams and there being too many games. Your solution was to make the international window shorter. Now you're saying that wouldn't actually have an affect on the amount of games.

Plus if the Welsh were trying to take international players from the league I don't imagine th ePRL would be happy.

Where did I suggest making the international window shorter?

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:22 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
So play the youngsters vs the Welsh. No there's not enough room at a time where the amount of games needs a serious look.

The English play through the international window. The easiest thing, of course, is to reduce the window.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:24 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:
So play the youngsters vs the Welsh. No there's not enough room at a time where the amount of games needs a serious look.

The English play through the international window. The easiest thing, of course, is to reduce the window.

You took that as a suggestion? Fair enough. I can see how it can be misinterpreted that way.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:28 pm

Fair enough if that wasn't what you were saying. So it comes back to too many games by just adding 4 Welsh teams.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Fair enough if that wasn't what you were saying. So it comes back to too many games by just adding 4 Welsh teams.

I don't think it does. The LV could be scrapped, the season elongated, the number of international games reduced, conference systems put in place, all sorts of solutions.

It's not beyond the wit of man.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:31 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:So, after that little diversion which had nothing to do with reducing the international game we go back to the original point. It's not a serious option. Well done in trying to distract from that though, including all the little insults!

What?

Reducing the international windows is a serious option.

That doesn't necessarily equate to reducing the international game.

That's not even subtle.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:33 pm

Easy to misinterpret you when you flip flap. So you do want to reduce international games. You want to reduce the off season for players. Not going to happen. LV games aren't primarily played by first team players. Pipe dreams.

by carpet baboon Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:36 pm

Remember 7 phill only plays darts in the dark and makes up his own score. Even when you do turn the lights on and show him the actual score, he just closes his eyes and carry's on.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:36 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Easy to misinterpret you when you flip flap. So you do want to reduce international games. You want to reduce the off season for players. Not going to happen. LV games aren't primarily played by first team players. Pipe dreams.

Where's the flip flap?

I can see why the Irish are petrified by something that is so obviously beneficial to its participants but, come on, it's not too difficult to envisage a season where the international game is played in a block allowing the clubs to play first team games the rest of the time.

All of that allows many opportunities. Embrace them, be happy for others.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:39 pm

You can't keep your arguments in line at all can you?

What do you mean be happy for others? What others?

by marty2086 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:42 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Easy to misinterpret you when you flip flap. So you do want to reduce international games. You want to reduce the off season for players. Not going to happen. LV games aren't primarily played by first team players. Pipe dreams.

He didn't you and everyone else got it wrong, don't you remember rule number 1. Phil is always right until hes not then you're just stupid Whistle

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:52 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You can't keep your arguments in line at all can you?

What do you mean be happy for others? What others?

I have only one argument: that Welsh pro rugby will die unless it is in a weekly competition with English teams.

Others? The Welsh.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:52 pm

marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Easy to misinterpret you when you flip flap. So you do want to reduce international games. You want to reduce the off season for players. Not going to happen. LV games aren't primarily played by first team players. Pipe dreams.

He didn't you and everyone else got it wrong, don't you remember rule number 1. Phil is always right until hes not then your just stupid

..

by marty2086 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:55 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:Easy to misinterpret you when you flip flap. So you do want to reduce international games. You want to reduce the off season for players. Not going to happen. LV games aren't primarily played by first team players. Pipe dreams.

He didn't you and everyone else got it wrong, don't you remember rule number 1. Phil is always right until hes not then your just stupid

..

Fixed for you Mr Anal Retentive

At least people didn't have to be mind readers to get its meaning Rolling Eyes

by carpet baboon Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:56 pm

PhilBB wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:You can't keep your arguments in line at all can you?

What do you mean be happy for others? What others?

I have only one argument: that Welsh pro rugby will die unless it is in a weekly competition with English teams.

Others? The Welsh.

But the English don't care about the welsh

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:56 pm

Fair enough Phil, like I said I fully understand why the Welsh are looking jealously over at the Aviva teams, but they're out for them. They don't give a stuff if the Welsh teams fold.

by munkian Thu Apr 28, 2016 3:58 pm

Im not ANYONE can speak on here can speak on behalf of all AVIVA/PRO12 teams/Fans to be fair No 7.5...

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:01 pm

I love the Irish narrative that the English want the Welsh to fold / don't care if they do / aren't interested in them.

You can smell the desperation.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:03 pm

Was speaking from what the PRL have demonsrated munkian. They've not demonstarted they're a charity.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:04 pm

Of course I understand the jealousy of the Welsh but the PRL aren't about to share their wealth for the good of them.

by carpet baboon Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:04 pm

It's not desperation. There would be no commercial value in adding the welsh into the PRL.
But you keep them lights turned off phill

by marty2086 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:04 pm

PhilBB wrote:I love the Irish narrative that the English want the Welsh to fold / don't care if they do / aren't interested in them.

You can smell the desperation.

And this is

'I have only one argument: that Welsh pro rugby will die unless it is in a weekly competition with English teams'

What? Intellectually superior?

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:05 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:Was speaking from what the PRL have demonsrated munkian. They've not demonstarted they're a charity.

Yet each time PRW have hit a brick wall with the WRU, PRL have helped out. Funny that.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:05 pm

marty2086 wrote:
And this is

'I have only one argument: that Welsh pro rugby will die unless it is in a weekly competition with English teams'

What? Intellectually superior?

Superior to what? You're not making sense, again.

by marty2086 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:07 pm

PhilBB wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
And this is

'I have only one argument: that Welsh pro rugby will die unless it is in a weekly competition with English teams'

What? Intellectually superior?

Superior to what? You're not making sense, again.

No you are just being difficult

Considering I quoted your previous post about a desperation argument from the Irish it's not difficult to figure out what I was referring to

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:10 pm

And now they're desparate to share the tc money with the Welsh and increase the burden on their players! No, sorry it's not going to happen. Pie in the sky thoughts there as the English game is currently about to enter a boom period.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:14 pm

marty2086 wrote:

No you are just being difficult

Considering I quoted your previous post about a desperation argument from the Irish it's not difficult to figure out what I was referring to

Could you clarify? I wouldn't like to misunderstand your point.

Thanks.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:15 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:And now they're desparate to share the tc money with the Welsh and increase the burden on their players! No, sorry it's not going to happen. Pie in the sky thoughts there as the English game is currently about to enter a boom period.

Two things: nobody is suggestion sharing or increasing the burden.

Try again.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:16 pm

So you're no longer wanting 4 Welsh teams in the Aviva then? 180!!!!!!

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:22 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you're no longer wanting 4 Welsh teams in the Aviva then? 180!!!!!!

Oh dear.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:24 pm

So you do want them involved again?

Presumably not sharing the tv money though, to be only subsidised by the WRU. Who will be cutting the amount of international games, except when they won't be, but simply playing them outseide of interntaional windows!

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:24 pm

I'm not sure the 180 is a darts term or you spinning on your heel to make a contracdictory point to one you've already tried.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:26 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:So you do want them involved again?

Presumably not sharing the tv money though, to be only subsidised by the WRU. Who will be cutting the amount of international games, except when they won't be, but simply playing them outseide of interntaional windows!

It gets a bit boring when you become deliberately silly. It's not something that you have to try to be, you know.

by No 7&1/2 Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:29 pm

You shift your position so much it's hard not to be silly.

You want 4 Welsh teams involved in the prem but you don't think those additional games will be a burden on the players and you don't want a share of the tv money.

by PhilBB Thu Apr 28, 2016 4:31 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:You shift your position so much it's hard not to be silly.

You want 4 Welsh teams involved in the prem but you don't think those additional games will be a burden on the players and you don't want a share of the tv money.

I haven't shifted position once.

As your second sentence proves.

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