Peter Jackson, hitting the nail on the head.

First topic message reminder :

Why should Zebre qualify for the CC ? It is a joke, and it is a scourge on the league that a team that can ship 160 points in 4 away games can get to play in the top level European competition. 


[size=30]Peter Jackson column: Stripe me! How can this Zebre side be Champions?[/size]

Zebre have lost their last four away matches by scores that could double up as opening stands at the T20 World Cup – 52-0, 32-0, 47-0 and 29-0. It adds up to a cumulative score of 0-160.
Despite those results, Zebre are on course to take their place in what Europe’s clubs call the Champions’ Cup, a grandiose description for a tournament supposedly reserved for the crème de la crème.
Edinburgh stand to suffer more than their Welsh rivals, ironically so given that they duly followed Leinster, Ulster and Munster in taking maximum-point advantage of the depleted Italians at Murrayfield on Friday night.  Scotland’s capital team may have lost a few games too many but they stand alone as the only club to have done the double over the champions, Glasgow.
Ospreys, twice crowned Pro 12 champions with not one but two Grand Final victories over Leinster in Dublin to their credit, supplied the Lions with five players for their last tour and may well supply five more for the next one, to New Zealand next year.  Despite their proven quality and ever-presence on the starting grid for Europe’s premier competition over the last 13 seasons, the Swansea-based side will be disqualified from the Champions’ Cup even if they recover sufficiently to finish seventh.
Some will say serve them right for a season of under-achievement, that nobody gets a free ride into Europe because it’s a competitive world – except that argument doesn’t apply when it comes to rewarding one Italian team for avoiding bottom place.
The same fate awaiting Edinburgh or the Ospreys could also very easily apply to a third club, Cardiff Blues. They are in the same boat and therefore in much the same danger of running aground despite having scored the most tries and most points going into the weekend round of matches.
Although seven places are available to Pro 12 teams in the Champions’ Cup, seventh gets whoever finishes there nowhere.  Rules are rules and the multi-national dimension of the Pro 12 requires that all four countries must be represented, including Italy, irrespective of where their two teams finish.
Treviso qualified from second last place because they lost only 18 of their 22 matches against Zebre’s 19.  Both are still in the bottom two except that Zebre have reversed the roles on the strength of a Christmas double over their compatriots.
Connacht were sacrificed last season although their seventh place did earn them entry to an abortive play-off series involving Gloucester and Bordeaux.      The intrusion of the World Cup leaves no room this season for any play-offs. Whoever finishes seventh – Ospreys, Edinburgh or the Cardiff Blues – will go straight into the secondary European Challenge Cup along with all those stranded in the nether regions of the Premiership, Top 14 and Pro 12.
Altruism is a noble quality. Guaranteeing Italy a place at the top table of the club game gives some reason for using the word European in the context of the Champions’ Cup.
It seemed a good idea at the time, one agreed on the basis that the Italian teams would become more competitive. Instead they have become less competitive, jammed in the same reverse gear as the national team.
If the tournament organisers, European Professional Club Rugby, are not already under pressure to review the Italian arrangement, it can be but a matter of time before they are.
The rules, as agreed by the Pro 12 as well as everyone else, dictate that the first four Pro 12 places go to the highest ranked team from Ireland, Italy, Scotland and Wales. If, for argument’s sake, the top eight finish in the same positions as they were on Friday morning, Connacht (1st), Zebre (11th), Glasgow (6th) and Scarlets (3rd) would fill those four positions.
That leaves three more to be filled by the remainder of the top six – Leinster (2nd), Munster (4th) and Ulster (5th). Ireland, therefore, face the happy prospect of all four provinces making the Champions’ Cup for the first time. Wales face the grim one of their representation being halved to one.
For the chosen few, Europe’s supreme club event brings prestige and commercial clout.  In a true meritocracy nobody qualifies for losing four matches out of every five even if that means narrowing the horizon of the tournament and renaming it the FIB (French, Irish, British) Cup.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No you are just being difficult

Considering I quoted your previous post about a desperation argument from the Irish it's not difficult to figure out what I was referring to

Could you clarify? I wouldn't like to misunderstand your point.

Thanks.

I will, I included your quote about the Irish desperation about the English not being interested in the Welsh. Then with your(see I got it right this time ) quote about the Welsh folding unless they get weekly interaction with the English I queried the legitimacy of your desperation claim when your counter argument was based on the amount, maybe even less facts.

I also pointed out that you were being difficult because its what you seem to do when you are wrong, instead of addressing the matter you try to distract from it. The irony eh

So the PRL are going to agree to 4 additional teams worth of games? Not sure why they'd do that.

The Welsh teams are going to be saved by playing English 2nd teams while getting no tv money. Not sure how that would work.

Not sure what's in that for the PRL.

I do find it amusing that half the time the Franglos are evil and out to get everything they can and the rest of the time they're the knight in shining armour for the Welsh.

This man does not represent us...

munkian wrote:This man does not represent us...

I agree.

The thing is, PhilBB cannot see past his Cardiff are the best thing in the rugby world mentality.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I do find it amusing that half the time the Franglos are evil and out to get everything they can and the rest of the time they're the knight in shining armour for the Welsh.

Some welsh love the PRL, some welsh hate 'em. Err'body has different tastes.

munkian wrote:This man does not represent us...

Yeah this place needs to remember that just because the loudest say something it doesn't mean the majority agree.

I find it's best to just think of phill as some sort of snake oil salesman, televangelist, clairvoyant cross. Ful of self importance, ignorant of facts but absolutely certain of his own opinion being the only right one.
Refuses requests to show facts but adamant anyone else must provide them, belittles those who repeatedly question him and spends most his days blaming everyone else for everything, while clinging to a dream his knight in shining armour will turn up and save him.

Some days I feel bad for him, most days I just laugh at him, but I never ever ever take him seriously.

Yeah my jokey comment wasn't meaning no one holds a balanced view.

Should have heard him on the Scrum V Radio show - sounded like Errol the Hamster.

marty2086 wrote:

I will, I included your quote about the Irish desperation about the English not being interested in the Welsh. Then with your(see I got it right this time ) quote about the Welsh folding unless they get weekly interaction with the English I queried the legitimacy of your desperation claim when your counter argument was based on the amount, maybe even less facts.

I also pointed out that you were being difficult because its what you seem to do when you are wrong, instead of addressing the matter you try to distract from it. The irony eh

What does this mean: "I queried the legitimacy of your desperation claim when your counter argument was based on the amount, maybe even less facts." I can't understand that so please could you explain?

Also, please could you let me know what you think I'm wrong about? Thanks in advance.

munkian wrote:Should have heard him on the Scrum V Radio show - sounded like  Errol the Hamster.

Cheers, mate.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I will, I included your quote about the Irish desperation about the English not being interested in the Welsh. Then with your(see I got it right this time ) quote about the Welsh folding unless they get weekly interaction with the English I queried the legitimacy of your desperation claim when your counter argument was based on the amount, maybe even less facts.

I also pointed out that you were being difficult because its what you seem to do when you are wrong, instead of addressing the matter you try to distract from it. The irony eh

What does this mean: "I queried the legitimacy of your desperation claim when your counter argument was based on the amount, maybe even less facts." I can't understand that so please could you explain?

Also, please could you let me know what you think I'm wrong about? Thanks in advance.

NO!

munkian wrote:Should have heard him on the Scrum V Radio show - sounded like  Errol the Hamster.

Phill is real??? Like, he has a face and voice and all?

I thought he was a computer programme designed to respond to all comments in a derisory fashion so at to keep 606 alive and interesting.

LordDowlais wrote:

The thing is, PhilBB cannot see past his Cardiff are the best thing in the rugby world mentality.

Andy, mate, why you are still writing that lie? I didn't have you down as an outright liar, so everyday is a school day

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

I will, I included your quote about the Irish desperation about the English not being interested in the Welsh. Then with your(see I got it right this time ) quote about the Welsh folding unless they get weekly interaction with the English I queried the legitimacy of your desperation claim when your counter argument was based on the amount, maybe even less facts.

I also pointed out that you were being difficult because its what you seem to do when you are wrong, instead of addressing the matter you try to distract from it. The irony eh

What does this mean: "I queried the legitimacy of your desperation claim when your counter argument was based on the amount, maybe even less facts." I can't understand that so please could you explain?

Also, please could you let me know what you think I'm wrong about? Thanks in advance.

NO!

I thought not.

Run......run.....

No 7&1/2 wrote:So the PRL are going to agree to 4 additional teams worth of games? Not sure why they'd do that.

The Welsh teams are going to be saved by playing English 2nd teams while getting no tv money. Not sure how that would work.

Not sure what's in that for the PRL.

Oooh. The deliberate attempted jokey misrepresentation game.

We got there quite quickly after the 'play stupid game'.

I wonder what's next for us?

Just for fun. Phill can you show me proof of any single assertion you have made? Ever?

So spell it out then Phil.

You want an extra 4 teams in the Prem but you've said that they won't be recieving the tv money. How does that help the Welsh teams?

carpet baboon wrote:Just for fun. Phill can you show me proof of any single assertion you have made? Ever?

You pick one, Champ.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So spell it out then Phil.

You want an extra 4 teams in the Prem but you've said that they won't be recieving the tv money. How does that help the Welsh teams?

FFS. It's been written clearly many times.

If there isn't an addition to the pot for ALL players then there will be no move to an AW league. This is blindingly obvious.

See I asked you for proof, you didn't supply any. I see a theme here.

No 7&1/2 wrote:So spell it out then Phil.

You want an extra 4 teams in the Prem but you've said that they won't be recieving the tv money. How does that help the Welsh teams?

He escapes having to mutter pleasantries to visiting rustic Celts from far off lands, and gets to play with his Knightly Saxon brethren instead?

carpet baboon wrote:See I asked you for proof, you didn't supply any. I see a theme here.

I can see one, yes. You refusing to note what you claim is an 'assertion'.

No it isn't clearly written. You keep changing your mind.

So now you're saying you do expect the Welsh to get a share of the money?

Just restate clearly what you would want for the Welsh teams and why the PRL would agree.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No it isn't clearly written. You keep changing your mind.

So now you're saying you do expect the Welsh to get a share of the money?

Just restate clearly what you would want for the Welsh teams and why the PRL would agree.

I haven't changed my mind once.

Without playing in a weekly competition against English teams, Welsh pro rugby will wither and die. Why would PRL agree to it? They won't unless it makes them money.

See Mourad's Euro Conference plan for an indication.

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:See I asked you for proof, you didn't supply any. I see a theme here.

I can see one, yes. You refusing to note what you claim is an 'assertion'.

Phill. Phill. Phill. Still refusing to turn the lights on.

carpet baboon wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:See I asked you for proof, you didn't supply any. I see a theme here.

I can see one, yes. You refusing to note what you claim is an 'assertion'.

Phill. Phill. Phill. Still refusing to turn the lights on.

Oh, Babs, you're still unable to supply an 'assertion'. Still. Funny that.

OK phill you say the welsh teams would only go to the PRL if they all felt it would be a financial bennifit to all.
Can you show any proof that adding the 4 welsh regions would bring in extra money?

carpet baboon wrote:OK phill you say the welsh teams would only go to the PRL if they all felt it would be a financial bennifit to all.
Can you show any proof that adding the 4 welsh regions would bring in extra money?

Nope. I cannot.

My assertion is that they will only move if it is financially beneficial to all.

My assertion is NOT that extra money would be brought in.

Can you spot the difference?

It seems that if you want know what PhilBB wants, thinks, insists, and dreams about, you must go to the library and ask for the full encyclopaedia of Bourad speeches and business plans.

Bourad is the Saviour.

Haha but phill only months ago talks were under way, well underway according to your source. It was a done deal, TV company's signed up to this new league the region's all for it, just waiting for the PRL to open upp and invite you over
What's changed phill? What's happened to these talks? What could possibly be in the new 6 year deal between the RFU and PRL? Have they left space for the RRW?
Will your knight in shining armour ever arrive?


Awww I suppose it's just my Irish desperation clinging to the hope the English won't steel you away from us.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No it isn't clearly written. You keep changing your mind.

So now you're saying you do expect the Welsh to get a share of the money?

Just restate clearly what you would want for the Welsh teams and why the PRL would agree.

I haven't changed my mind once.

Without playing in a weekly competition against English teams, Welsh pro rugby will wither and die. Why would PRL agree to it? They won't unless it makes them money.

See Mourad's Euro Conference plan for an indication.

So no change to the current formats then. Cool.

PhilBB wrote:
Without playing in a weekly competition against English teams, Welsh pro rugby will wither and die. Why would PRL agree to it? They won't unless it makes them money.

Ospreys Rugby Ltd wrote:As has been the case over the last three years, the story of this period is one of continued stead off-field progress with increased funding and commercial revenue leading to an improved all round financial performance.

That improvement, combined with continued prudent financial management is reflected in the end of year figures, with the business returning a positive end of year figure since the first time for 2007. That makes satisfying reading for all concerned.

It seems someone didn't get Phils memo or maybe someones just a little desperate

SecretFly wrote:It seems that if you want know what PhilBB wants, thinks, insists, and dreams about, you must go to the library and ask for the full encyclopaedia of Bourad speeches and business plans.

Bourad is the Saviour.

Do you mean Mourad?

carpet baboon wrote:Haha but phill only months ago talks were under way, well underway according to your source. It was a done deal, TV  company's signed up to this new league the region's all for it, just waiting for the PRL to open upp and  invite you over
What's changed phill? What's happened to these talks? What could possibly be in the new 6 year deal between the RFU and PRL? Have they left space for the RRW?
Will your knight in shining armour ever arrive?


Awww I suppose it's just my Irish desperation clinging to the hope the English won't steel you away from us.

Where did I claim it was 'a done deal'?

I love the message board tactic of inventing a lie and then arguing / mocking against it, but it's a bit old hat, Champ. It died off years ago elsewhere as it just makes the liar look thick.

Now, you've asserted that I claimed it was a 'done deal'. Have a taste of your own medicine and provide the proof for that assertion.

Be brave now.

marty2086 wrote:
It seems someone didn't get Phils memo or maybe someones just a little desperate

Have you noticed how successful the Os are nowadays?

Haha OK phill so your just going to pretend I made it up. Nice work.
How's the snake oil business?

carpet baboon wrote:Haha OK phill so your just going to pretend I made it up. Nice work.
How's the snake oil business?

If I had written that, you'd be able to produce the link.

Alternatively, you could just admit to being a liar.

Your call.

Ahhh phill no need to get angry is there.
It's funny a man who has lived on his word being fact demanding proof from others. And I love the way you get all indignant

carpet baboon wrote:Ahhh phill no need to get angry is there.
It's funny a man who has lived on his word being fact demanding proof from others. And I love the way you get all indignant

No anger. I find your daft behaviour quite enjoyable as it shows the empty vessel that you are.

You lied, pure and simple. It's a silly game that you play and makes you look like a 14 year old child trying to mock something he doesn't understand.

Your call, of course, but I think that you were aiming for better.

Haha phill falling back on put downs. I've noticed you seem to always go for the 14 year old angle. Now that's worrying

carpet baboon wrote:Haha phill falling back on put downs. I've noticed you seem to always go for the 14 year old angle. Now that's worrying

Only if you're of a certain psyche could that be at all worrying.

It's good to see that you've failed to support your assertion so have, by default, admitted to being a liar.

Nice work, Babs.

Phill if failing to back up your assertions is proof of being a liar, you havnt typed a single true thing on this site.

And again with the name calling. Champ , babs why do you think they would bother me

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
It seems someone didn't get Phils memo or maybe someones just a little desperate

Have you noticed how successful the Os are nowadays?

Oh so its about success now rather than needing the competition?

Nice shift of the goalposts there

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Haha phill falling back on put downs. I've noticed you seem to always go for the 14 year old angle. Now that's worrying

Only if you're of a certain psyche could that be at all worrying.

It's good to see that you've failed to support your assertion so have, by default, admitted to being a liar.

Nice work, Babs.

No self awareness then?

carpet baboon wrote:Phill if failing to back up your assertions is proof of being a liar, you havnt typed a single true thing on this site.

And again with the name calling. Champ , babs why do you think they would bother me

Yet you can't point to one assertion. Funny that.

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
It seems someone didn't get Phils memo or maybe someones just a little desperate

Have you noticed how successful the Os are nowadays?

Oh so its about success now rather than needing the competition?

Nice shift of the goalposts there

Erm, if teams aren't successful (to a measure) it means that they aren't long for this world.

If you want a clue about that, look at how Munster are getting on and how their debt is piling on.

Munchkin wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

carpet baboon wrote:Haha phill falling back on put downs. I've noticed you seem to always go for the 14 year old angle. Now that's worrying

Only if you're of a certain psyche could that be at all worrying.

It's good to see that you've failed to support your assertion so have, by default, admitted to being a liar.

Nice work, Babs.

No self awareness then?

Enough to note that nobody has pointed to an assertion they can't see supported, so far.

Keep going, lads.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
It seems someone didn't get Phils memo or maybe someones just a little desperate

Have you noticed how successful the Os are nowadays?

Oh so its about success now rather than needing the competition?

Nice shift of the goalposts there

Erm, if teams aren't successful (to a measure) it means that they aren't long for this world.

If you want a clue about that, look at how Munster are getting on and how their debt is piling on.

Ospreys haven't been successful for a while according to you yet they are getting financially healthier, Sarries are getting more successful yet have a bigger debt than Munster so your examples and statements fail to hold up to reality