About v2Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
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The v2 Forum :: Sport :: Rugby Union :: Club Rugby
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Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by LordDowlais Mon 18 Apr 2016, 9:22 am
First topic message reminder :
Well this was an interesting read, it looks as though there is not much difference between average crowd sizes between the two leagues, now I know the Pro12 has it's issues what with the reffing situations and the logistics of it all, but this does make for interesting reading, also how the feck are Saracens still in operation ?
[size=48]The evidence that shows the Aviva Premiership isn't much more of a crowd puller than the Pro12 after all[/size]
Crowds have been disappointing at Allianz Park
How many times have critics of the Guinness Pro12 pointed to the Aviva Premiership as being the “best club tournament in the world” and a “shining light” for large crowds?
Yes, Dai Young’s Wasps are booming since their 80-mile move north from High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire to Coventry in the heart of the midlands.
But it’s Leicester Tigers who continue to lead the way over the border when it comes to attendances, regularly exceeding 20,000.
However, crowds have been affected at the another other of the historical major clubs, Gloucester, by disappointing results.
The biggest embarrassment of the lot, though, is English champions Saracens, when they stage home matches at Allianz Park.
Just 8,050 turned up for the continent’s in-form team’s scintillating 29-20 European Champions Cup quarter-final victory over Northampton last weekend.
If any of the Welsh pro entities – Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent Dragons, Ospreys or Scarlets – were hosting Northampton in a last eight clash in the northern hemisphere gem, you’d expect them to better that figure.
“The players would love to have run out in front of a full house against Northampton, there’s no question of that,” said Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall.
“The players have done enough over the last five years to warrant full houses because it’s not as though there aren’t some good players to come and watch. They’re winning a lot of games.”
Saracens qualified for the knockout phase with a clean sweep of six victories in their group, guaranteeing they would face Northampton at their purpose-built venue in Hertfordshire.
“We worked so hard to be at home for the home quarter-finals because we’ve been away for the same stage for the last two years,” said former Ulster coach McCall.
“It was an unbelievable atmosphere in Ulster in 2014 when 18,000 people turned up. It was magic.
“The people who were there on Saturday did well because it was a good atmosphere, but the playing group deserved a bit more.”
The crowd at Allianz Park was not helped by the small number of Northampton supporters who made the 61-mile journey to Barnet.
An allocation of 3,500 was made available to Northampton but 2,850 of those were returned with just 650 bought – a surprise given the size of the fixture, the rivalry between the teams and their proximity.
Under tournament guidelines, the English champions needed to provide a capacity of 15,000 but it was waived by Champions Cup powerbrokers when it became apparent the extra seats would not be required.
It’s the same Saracens that attracted just 25,492 to Twickenham two years ago to see them crush Clermont Auvergne in the semi-finals.
The north London club has also seen its debt rise to £45.1m in the last financial year following a loss of £3.98m.
The annual accounts reveal they are the most indebted club in rugby history with long-standing benefactor Nigel Wray and a consortium of South African business associates having kept Saracens afloat through an unsecured loan.
Yet, a year ago, club chairman Wray called for the RFU to scrap Premier Rugby’s salary cap.
Ironically, on Saturday they will host Harlequins at Wembley Stadium in their equivalent of our own Judgement Day – ‘Men in Black’ are due to appear and singer Foxes will perform some of her biggest hits from her new album – with 77,000 tickets already distributed, generating revenue of over £1m,. Saracens chief McCall has questioned why a larger number of those fans fail to attend fixtures at Allianz Park.
Saracens attracted a crowd of 41,063 when they faced Ospreys at the home of English football in December 2011, with rappers Tinie Tempah and Tincy Stryder being a huge draw for a young crowd as they played live.
“We want some of the people at Wembley to come along on a week to week basis,” said McCall.
But Saracens aren’t the only club in the Aviva Premiership who must be concerned about their home gates.
League strugglers London Irish have seen their attendances dip to about 5,500, Sale Sharks had just 4,236 for their home clash with high-flying Exeter Chiefs in Salford while Newcastle Falcons are posting figures of just over 6,500 and Worcester Warriors between 8-9,000.
Sale had just 4,557 for last weekend’s European Challenge Cup quarter-final against star-studded Montpellier, who are second in the French Top 14, while Gloucester’s crowd of 10,501 against the Dragons was lower than any they have had for a Premiership match this campaign.
Harlequins would also have been disappointed by only 9,851 watching them against London Irish at Twickenham Stoop.
George North's Northampton have gone the other way. They extended their stadium from 13,300 to 15,250 over the summer and have had a 15 per cent increase in attendances at Franklin's Gardens.
Nonetheless, interestingly average gates in the last two rounds of the Aviva Premiership have been 10,793 and 14,023, compared to 8,487 and 13,765 in the Pro12.
The average in last weekend’s European ties was 17,030 in the Champions Cup and 9,746 in the Challenge Cup.
So, when you scratch below the surface, the gloss and the spin, maybe the Premiership isn’t quite everything it’s cracked up to be after all.
Aviva Premiership
Guinness Pro12
13,765
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/evidence-shows-aviva-premiership-isnt-11186173
Well this was an interesting read, it looks as though there is not much difference between average crowd sizes between the two leagues, now I know the Pro12 has it's issues what with the reffing situations and the logistics of it all, but this does make for interesting reading, also how the feck are Saracens still in operation ?
[size=48]The evidence that shows the Aviva Premiership isn't much more of a crowd puller than the Pro12 after all[/size]
Just 8,050 turned up for the continent’s in-form team’s scintillating 29-20 European Champions Cup quarter-final victory over Northampton last weekend
Crowds have been disappointing at Allianz Park
How many times have critics of the Guinness Pro12 pointed to the Aviva Premiership as being the “best club tournament in the world” and a “shining light” for large crowds?
Yes, Dai Young’s Wasps are booming since their 80-mile move north from High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire to Coventry in the heart of the midlands.
But it’s Leicester Tigers who continue to lead the way over the border when it comes to attendances, regularly exceeding 20,000.
However, crowds have been affected at the another other of the historical major clubs, Gloucester, by disappointing results.
The biggest embarrassment of the lot, though, is English champions Saracens, when they stage home matches at Allianz Park.
Just 8,050 turned up for the continent’s in-form team’s scintillating 29-20 European Champions Cup quarter-final victory over Northampton last weekend.
If any of the Welsh pro entities – Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent Dragons, Ospreys or Scarlets – were hosting Northampton in a last eight clash in the northern hemisphere gem, you’d expect them to better that figure.
“The players would love to have run out in front of a full house against Northampton, there’s no question of that,” said Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall.
“The players have done enough over the last five years to warrant full houses because it’s not as though there aren’t some good players to come and watch. They’re winning a lot of games.”
Saracens qualified for the knockout phase with a clean sweep of six victories in their group, guaranteeing they would face Northampton at their purpose-built venue in Hertfordshire.
“We worked so hard to be at home for the home quarter-finals because we’ve been away for the same stage for the last two years,” said former Ulster coach McCall.
“It was an unbelievable atmosphere in Ulster in 2014 when 18,000 people turned up. It was magic.
“The people who were there on Saturday did well because it was a good atmosphere, but the playing group deserved a bit more.”
The crowd at Allianz Park was not helped by the small number of Northampton supporters who made the 61-mile journey to Barnet.
An allocation of 3,500 was made available to Northampton but 2,850 of those were returned with just 650 bought – a surprise given the size of the fixture, the rivalry between the teams and their proximity.
Under tournament guidelines, the English champions needed to provide a capacity of 15,000 but it was waived by Champions Cup powerbrokers when it became apparent the extra seats would not be required.
It’s the same Saracens that attracted just 25,492 to Twickenham two years ago to see them crush Clermont Auvergne in the semi-finals.
The north London club has also seen its debt rise to £45.1m in the last financial year following a loss of £3.98m.
The annual accounts reveal they are the most indebted club in rugby history with long-standing benefactor Nigel Wray and a consortium of South African business associates having kept Saracens afloat through an unsecured loan.
Yet, a year ago, club chairman Wray called for the RFU to scrap Premier Rugby’s salary cap.
Ironically, on Saturday they will host Harlequins at Wembley Stadium in their equivalent of our own Judgement Day – ‘Men in Black’ are due to appear and singer Foxes will perform some of her biggest hits from her new album – with 77,000 tickets already distributed, generating revenue of over £1m,. Saracens chief McCall has questioned why a larger number of those fans fail to attend fixtures at Allianz Park.
Saracens attracted a crowd of 41,063 when they faced Ospreys at the home of English football in December 2011, with rappers Tinie Tempah and Tincy Stryder being a huge draw for a young crowd as they played live.
“We want some of the people at Wembley to come along on a week to week basis,” said McCall.
But Saracens aren’t the only club in the Aviva Premiership who must be concerned about their home gates.
League strugglers London Irish have seen their attendances dip to about 5,500, Sale Sharks had just 4,236 for their home clash with high-flying Exeter Chiefs in Salford while Newcastle Falcons are posting figures of just over 6,500 and Worcester Warriors between 8-9,000.
Sale had just 4,557 for last weekend’s European Challenge Cup quarter-final against star-studded Montpellier, who are second in the French Top 14, while Gloucester’s crowd of 10,501 against the Dragons was lower than any they have had for a Premiership match this campaign.
Harlequins would also have been disappointed by only 9,851 watching them against London Irish at Twickenham Stoop.
George North's Northampton have gone the other way. They extended their stadium from 13,300 to 15,250 over the summer and have had a 15 per cent increase in attendances at Franklin's Gardens.
Nonetheless, interestingly average gates in the last two rounds of the Aviva Premiership have been 10,793 and 14,023, compared to 8,487 and 13,765 in the Pro12.
The average in last weekend’s European ties was 17,030 in the Champions Cup and 9,746 in the Challenge Cup.
So, when you scratch below the surface, the gloss and the spin, maybe the Premiership isn’t quite everything it’s cracked up to be after all.
Average crowd last weekend
Aviva Premiership
14,023
Guinness Pro12
13,765
http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/evidence-shows-aviva-premiership-isnt-11186173
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Re: Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by ScarletSpiderman Tue 26 Apr 2016, 7:10 pm
All Irish? I'm sure there were saffers, kiwis and Aussies there.
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Re: Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by SecretFly Tue 26 Apr 2016, 7:38 pm
Oh dear.................................. oh dear, oh dear, oh dear..............
where's the "head in the hands* emoticon??? There should be one for such moments of tooth pulling grief.
where's the "head in the hands* emoticon??? There should be one for such moments of tooth pulling grief.
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Join date : 2011-12-12
Re: Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by PhilBB Wed 27 Apr 2016, 3:58 pm
wayne wrote:
Carpet, I would presume after the WRU take their cut out (and that won't be small) the 2 Home teams will share what is over, which will be considerably more than what they would have made if they actually played at their home grounds. IIRC the WRU take what is taken at the bars.
Considerably more? Interesting claim.
Say 55,000 tickets sold = £458,000. Take off costs - lets call that £58,000 for neatness. So £400,000 left to be split 2 ways: £200,000 each.
CAP at 12,500 sell out would generate 8,000 @ average £12 = c.£100,000 each.
Plus income from 40 hospitality boxes and two lunch venues, plus lost ground revenue through sponsorship.
I can see it working for the NGD but not for CAP.
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Re: Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by Pot Hale Sun 08 May 2016, 2:10 am
Pot Hale wrote:Crowd attendances by Team - PRO 12 2015/16 (figures from PRO 12 website)
Home team on left hand column. Read left to right. (Attendances for Rounds 21 & 22 have been included.)
Away teams from top to bottom. Any errors are unintentional.
Ho/Aw Connacht Leinster Munster Ulster Cardiff Dragons Ospreys Scarlets Glasgow Edinb'h Treviso Zebre Tot. Home Avg Home Connacht 0 7300 7786 5876 3274 3624 5279 5292 7786 3834 3443 3994 57402 5218 Leinster 14297 0 43108 15552 13300 10400 10897 14743 11089 10233 10083 8612 162231 14748 Munster 15143 25600 0 13039 6124 13552 7791 12000 11713 8200 5425 13063 130450 11859 Ulster 16224 17332 17211 0 15886 13768 13544 15201 16477 15839 14398 15726 171274 15570 Ireland 45,664 50,232 68,105 34,467 38,584 41,344 37,511 47,236 47,065 38,106 33,349 41,395 523,058 47,551 Cardiff 5824 5321 5017 5279 0 8203 34,131 11720 5704 6058 5258 3658 96,173 8,743 Dragons 4128 4303 5579 4483 8226 0 6413 34,131 4526 6352 4940 4159 87,240 7931 Ospreys 7893 7340 8107 9,923 9920 9247 0 12051 7239 7264 8445 7236 94,465 8588 Scarlets 5888 7013 6466 6061 9546 6952 14568 0 8165 5569 5236 5504 80,968 7361 Wales 23,733 23,977 25,169 25,546 27,692 24,402 55,112 57,902 25,634 25,243 23,879 20,557 358,846 32,622 Glasgow 6267 6800 7212 6800 6492 6641 6650 6562 0 8000 6634 6800 74858 6805 Edinb'h 3584 2479 4981 4324 4962 3254 2475 3618 23642 0 3159 3799 60277 5480 Scotland 9851 9279 12193 11124 10992 9895 9125 10180 23642 8000 9793 10299 134373 12,216 Treviso 3700 4000 1000 2500 2500 1900 3700 3000 3500 4000 0 5000 32600 2964 Zebre 1850 2430 2400 3000 1634 2650 2308 2000 1850 1500 4509 0 24981 2271 Italy 3350 6430 3400 5500 4134 3400 6008 5000 5350 5500 4509 5000 57581 5,235 Total Away 82598 89586 108867 74414 81402 79041 98625 111187 101605 75649 71447 77251 1,075,840 Avg Away 7509 8144 9897 6765 7400 7186 8966 10108 9237 6877 6495 7023 8,891
Last edited by Pot Hale on Sun 08 May 2016, 9:04 pm; edited 1 time in total
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Re: Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by Sgt_Pooly Sun 08 May 2016, 10:21 am
It's interesting that interesting has been put in the title of this thread, as it's not interesting in the slightest.
Have a great day
Have a great day
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Re: Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by Pot Hale Sun 08 May 2016, 9:06 pm
Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's interesting that interesting has been put in the title of this thread, as it's not interesting in the slightest.
Have a great day
It's even more interesting that the premise of the original article is not even vaguely accurate when the full season is taken into account.
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Re: Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by Guest Sun 08 May 2016, 9:54 pm
Pot Hale wrote:Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's interesting that interesting has been put in the title of this thread, as it's not interesting in the slightest.
Have a great day
It's even more interesting that the premise of the original article is not even vaguely accurate when the full season is taken into account.
20/20 hindsight is a beautiful thing Pot.
Guest- Guest
Re: Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva
by Pot Hale Mon 09 May 2016, 10:13 am
Hindsight after 20 rounds? I'd call that fact-checking. The original author might have looked beyond one weekend's round of Matches to establish a more accurate picture, Griff.Griff wrote:Pot Hale wrote:Sgt_Pooly wrote:It's interesting that interesting has been put in the title of this thread, as it's not interesting in the slightest.
Have a great day
It's even more interesting that the premise of the original article is not even vaguely accurate when the full season is taken into account.
20/20 hindsight is a beautiful thing Pot.
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