Interesting comparison between Pro12 and Aviva

by LordDowlais Mon Apr 18, 2016 7:22 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well this was an interesting read, it looks as though there is not much difference between average crowd sizes between the two leagues, now I know the Pro12 has it's issues what with the reffing situations and the logistics of it all, but this does make for interesting reading, also how the feck are Saracens still in operation ?

[size=48]The evidence that shows the Aviva Premiership isn't much more of a crowd puller than the Pro12 after all[/size]

Just 8,050 turned up for the continent’s in-form team’s scintillating 29-20 European Champions Cup quarter-final victory over Northampton last weekend

Crowds have been disappointing at Allianz Park
How many times have critics of the Guinness Pro12 pointed to the Aviva Premiership as being the “best club tournament in the world” and a “shining light” for large crowds?
Yes, Dai Young’s Wasps are booming since their 80-mile move north from High Wycombe in Buckinghamshire to Coventry in the heart of the midlands.
But it’s Leicester Tigers who continue to lead the way over the border when it comes to attendances, regularly exceeding 20,000.
However, crowds have been affected at the another other of the historical major clubs, Gloucester, by disappointing results.
The biggest embarrassment of the lot, though, is English champions Saracens, when they stage home matches at Allianz Park.

Just 8,050 turned up for the continent’s in-form team’s scintillating 29-20 European Champions Cup quarter-final victory over Northampton last weekend.

If any of the Welsh pro entities – Cardiff Blues, Newport Gwent Dragons, Ospreys or Scarlets – were hosting Northampton in a last eight clash in the northern hemisphere gem, you’d expect them to better that figure.
“The players would love to have run out in front of a full house against Northampton, there’s no question of that,” said Saracens director of rugby Mark McCall.
“The players have done enough over the last five years to warrant full houses because it’s not as though there aren’t some good players to come and watch. They’re winning a lot of games.”
Saracens qualified for the knockout phase with a clean sweep of six victories in their group, guaranteeing they would face Northampton at their purpose-built venue in Hertfordshire.

“We worked so hard to be at home for the home quarter-finals because we’ve been away for the same stage for the last two years,” said former Ulster coach McCall.
“It was an unbelievable atmosphere in Ulster in 2014 when 18,000 people turned up. It was magic.
“The people who were there on Saturday did well because it was a good atmosphere, but the playing group deserved a bit more.”
The crowd at Allianz Park was not helped by the small number of Northampton supporters who made the 61-mile journey to Barnet.
An allocation of 3,500 was made available to Northampton but 2,850 of those were returned with just 650 bought – a surprise given the size of the fixture, the rivalry between the teams and their proximity.
Under tournament guidelines, the English champions needed to provide a capacity of 15,000 but it was waived by Champions Cup powerbrokers when it became apparent the extra seats would not be required.
It’s the same Saracens that attracted just 25,492 to Twickenham two years ago to see them crush Clermont Auvergne in the semi-finals.

The north London club has also seen its debt rise to £45.1m in the last financial year following a loss of £3.98m.
The annual accounts reveal they are the most indebted club in rugby history with long-standing benefactor Nigel Wray and a consortium of South African business associates having kept Saracens afloat through an unsecured loan.
Yet, a year ago, club chairman Wray called for the RFU to scrap Premier Rugby’s salary cap.
Ironically, on Saturday they will host Harlequins at Wembley Stadium in their equivalent of our own Judgement Day – ‘Men in Black’ are due to appear and singer Foxes will perform some of her biggest hits from her new album – with 77,000 tickets already distributed, generating revenue of over £1m,. Saracens chief McCall has questioned why a larger number of those fans fail to attend fixtures at Allianz Park.
Saracens attracted a crowd of 41,063 when they faced Ospreys at the home of English football in December 2011, with rappers Tinie Tempah and Tincy Stryder being a huge draw for a young crowd as they played live.

“We want some of the people at Wembley to come along on a week to week basis,” said McCall.
But Saracens aren’t the only club in the Aviva Premiership who must be concerned about their home gates.
League strugglers London Irish have seen their attendances dip to about 5,500, Sale Sharks had just 4,236 for their home clash with high-flying Exeter Chiefs in Salford while Newcastle Falcons are posting figures of just over 6,500 and Worcester Warriors between 8-9,000.

Sale had just 4,557 for last weekend’s European Challenge Cup quarter-final against star-studded Montpellier, who are second in the French Top 14, while Gloucester’s crowd of 10,501 against the Dragons was lower than any they have had for a Premiership match this campaign.
Harlequins would also have been disappointed by only 9,851 watching them against London Irish at Twickenham Stoop.
George North's Northampton have gone the other way. They extended their stadium from 13,300 to 15,250 over the summer and have had a 15 per cent increase in attendances at Franklin's Gardens.
Nonetheless, interestingly average gates in the last two rounds of the Aviva Premiership have been 10,793 and 14,023, compared to 8,487 and 13,765 in the Pro12.
The average in last weekend’s European ties was 17,030 in the Champions Cup and 9,746 in the Challenge Cup.
So, when you scratch below the surface, the gloss and the spin, maybe the Premiership isn’t quite everything it’s cracked up to be after all.

Average crowd last weekend

Aviva Premiership

14,023

Guinness Pro12

13,765

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/evidence-shows-aviva-premiership-isnt-11186173

by PenfroPete Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:19 am

Notch wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Now, I am sure that no-one here would ever make selective use of facts knowingly. Like taking a weekend from the Pro12 wehere the Irish and Welsh Clubs all played "derby" matches, and despite 16k at Ravenhill, the Aviva crowd was bigger than all the other 5 matches put together.

Quite surprised at the stats in the OP. According to this the average attendance in the Pro12 is 7,400 and Ulster are the only side to average over the figure cited. You mean in the OP article not in Statbunker ?
http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=504

Ulster - 15,339

Leinster - 12,371

Munster - 12,323

Ospreys - 8,031

Not sure who Edinburgh Reivers are either Rolling Eyes

by **Notch** Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:27 am

LordDowlais wrote:
Notch wrote:Everyone here is well capable of clicking on a link if they want to know more

I would do that, but then I get abuse for getting people to give the media source hits. I am in a no win situation.

Well obviously if you have the right to post links to WOL and say whatever you want, people also have the right to pass judgment on WOL and say whatever they want.

by SecretFly Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:29 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Would be great to see the tv viewing figures. I was shocked with the poor viewing figures for champions league on bt sport reported back in february. Does poor soccer figures mean bt sport relies on rugby more? Should the Jeff be looking for more money?

Interesting. I was having a little conversation on a football thread a few weeks back - which was strange as I've long ago stopped watching football even on my once casual basis. But there I was anyway and I was saying I feel/I sense (without too much paper trail proof admittedly) that football/Premiership was dying off now after its truly gigantic period during Ferguson's era with Cantona and Keane etc. I think any lingering 'casual' observers that were picked up by that generation of players and managers (and they were in the hundreds of thousands if not millions) are now falling away again to other sports now or indeed falling away to no-particular-interest-in-any-sport-at-all again.

It seems your post suggests there is a degree of evidence after all to back up my hunch.

by doctor_grey Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:37 am

funnyExiledScot wrote:The debt situation at Sarries is staggering. It will end in tears. Mark my words.

I won't cry.
You gonna cry?.

by **Notch** Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:43 am

doctor_grey wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:The debt situation at Sarries is staggering. It will end in tears. Mark my words.
I won't cry.
You gonna cry?.

It'll be tough but I think I'll manage Wink

by **RiscaGame** Tue Apr 19, 2016 3:45 am

Cyril wrote:LD, why do you always use walesonline as your 'source'?

It's like browsing Whizzer and Chips for the latest on the FTSE.

That's brilliant.

by marty2086 Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:12 am

SecretFly wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Would be great to see the tv viewing figures. I was shocked with the poor viewing figures for champions league on bt sport reported back in february. Does poor soccer figures mean bt sport relies on rugby more? Should the Jeff be looking for more money?

Interesting. I was having a little conversation on a football thread a few weeks back - which was strange as I've long ago stopped watching football even on my once casual basis. But there I was anyway and I was saying I feel/I sense (without too much paper trail proof admittedly) that football/Premiership was dying off now after its truly gigantic period during Ferguson's era with Cantona and Keane etc. I think any lingering 'casual' observers that were picked up by that generation of players and managers (and they were in the hundreds of thousands if not millions) are now falling away again to other sports now or indeed falling away to no-particular-interest-in-any-sport-at-all again.

It seems your post suggests there is a degree of evidence after all to back up my hunch.

I think there is a drop for football but the problem with the Champions League is BT reaches a fraction of Skys audience which is less than ITVs reach which has an impact on sponsorship which is a problem for UEFA

by marty2086 Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:17 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:
marty2086 wrote:
Notch wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:Now, I am sure that no-one here would ever make selective use of facts knowingly. Like taking a weekend from the Pro12 wehere the Irish and Welsh Clubs all played "derby" matches, and despite 16k at Ravenhill, the Aviva crowd was bigger than all the other 5 matches put together.

Quite surprised at the stats in the OP. According to this the average attendance in the Pro12 is 7,400 and Ulster are the only side to average over the figure cited.

http://rugby.statbunker.com/competitions/HomeAttendance?comp_id=504

The numbers on statbunker aren't right for Ulster according to official figures, I know in the past there were games that were not included and I think they included Judgement Day totals too which can skew the averages etc

And then there is the whole debacle of how you measure attendance, is it seats sold, is it tickets scanned in at the gate, etc. Is a game a sell-out and if it is, did everyone show up? There are some franchises (especially in the US) that could be (possibly, potentially) selling all remaining tickets in the minutes before the start of games to a ticket-trading company that they may or may not be affiliated with in order to regularly declare their games a sell out [even though you can walk up to the gate 5 minutes into a game and still pay in!]. Use of season tickets in the attendance figures. The fact for years that Italian clubs had an even 5,000 at their games. How you take a double header into the calculation (80k tickets sold for 2 games, ticket covers both games, does the person who only rocks up to the second match get included in the first match, do you take the max number that could potentially be there, take half the number to be for your match?). It's a minefield.

Would be great to see the tv viewing figures. I was shocked with the poor viewing figures for champions league on bt sport reported back in february. Does poor soccer figures mean bt sport relies on rugby more? Should the Jeff be looking for more money?

If you look back on past seasons I think theres a mix for Judgement Day of including them twice, once and not at all but the whole reporting of ticket sales is a joke, theres the one about Man City fans dressed as a blue seats as their sell outs have a lot of empty seats. When you have things like FFP in football you have to wonder if games are 'sold out' who is buying the tickets, are wealthy owners playing the system?

by thebandwagonsociety Tue Apr 19, 2016 4:54 am

marty2086 wrote:
SecretFly wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:

Would be great to see the tv viewing figures. I was shocked with the poor viewing figures for champions league on bt sport reported back in february. Does poor soccer figures mean bt sport relies on rugby more? Should the Jeff be looking for more money?

Interesting. I was having a little conversation on a football thread a few weeks back - which was strange as I've long ago stopped watching football even on my once casual basis. But there I was anyway and I was saying I feel/I sense (without too much paper trail proof admittedly) that football/Premiership was dying off now after its truly gigantic period during Ferguson's era with Cantona and Keane etc. I think any lingering 'casual' observers that were picked up by that generation of players and managers (and they were in the hundreds of thousands if not millions) are now falling away again to other sports now or indeed falling away to no-particular-interest-in-any-sport-at-all again.

It seems your post suggests there is a degree of evidence after all to back up my hunch.

I think there is a drop for football but the problem with the Champions League is BT reaches a fraction of Skys audience which is less than ITVs reach which has an impact on sponsorship which is a problem for UEFA

Correct marty, ITV getting c.1m for the highlights, but BT getting somewhere between 200,000 and 700,000 watching champions league depending on how the article is read. ITV was getting c.4m last season for live games.

I seem to remember early in the BT Sport broadcast of rugby they were getting 3-400,000 viewers so in that case rugby could be bigger or as big as soccer on BT Sport. There's a story in there.

Not sure the 'casual' observers are put off that much, just not spending money on muli-subscriptions as games are split over so many providers. Still plenty of interest in Barca, Real and even Leicester's run in the EPL.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/football/2016/02/12/uefa-concerned-by-bt-sports-dismal-champions-league-viewing-figu/

by Pot Hale Tue Apr 19, 2016 6:47 am

Those are revealing figures for soccer viewership - I'm surprised and yet I'm not.

I've failed to understand the attempt by BT to outspend Sky from its pre-eminent position as sports broadcaster over the last two decades. A quote from the linked article from BT Sport is also revealing in acknowledging the disparity between ITV's FTA audiences compared to BT Sport FTA offerings. ITV has been around for years, said BT, and it was an unfair comparison.

The spokesman from BT presumably didn't want to say that Sky has been around for years as well.

IF BT are in this for the long haul, they'd better be prepared to spend a lot more money to start hitting respectable figures for its outlay on both soccer and rugby. UEFA are disappointed with the figures; I wonder is the PRL equally dismayed or are they laughing all the way to the bank in the deal they managed to negotiate for the Premiership clubs?

Lastly, there have been various references to Sky PRO12 matches getting equivalent or even greater viewing figures than Premiership matches. If this is true, does this give Anayi & Co a much greater bargaining hand when the next TV deal comes up for review?

by Pot Hale Tue Apr 19, 2016 10:51 am

Crowd attendances by Team - PRO 12 2015/16 (figures from PRO 12 website)

Home team on left hand column. Read left to right. (Attendances for Rounds 21 & 22 have been estimated.)
Away teams from top to bottom. Any errors are unintentional.

Home/Opp	Connacht	Leinster	Munster	Ulster	Cardiff	Dragons	Ospreys	Scarlets	Glasgow	Edinb'h	Treviso	Zebre	Tot. Home	Avg Home
Connacht	0	7300	7786	5876	3274	3624	5279	5292	7700	3834	3443	3994	57402	5218
Leinster	14297	0	43108	15552	13300	10400	10897	14743	11089	10233	10000	8612	162231	14748
Munster	15143	25600	0	13039	6124	13552	7791	12000	11713	7000	5425	13063	130450	11859
Ulster	16224	17000	17211	0	15886	13768	13544	15201	16477	15839	14398	15726	171274	15570
Ireland	45,664	49,900	68,105	34,467	38,584	41,344	37,511	47,236	46,979	36,906	33,266	41,395	521,357	47,396
Cardiff	5824	5321	5017	5279	0	8203	25000	11720	5704	6058	5258	3658	87042	7913
Dragons	4128	4303	5579	4483	8226	0	6413	25000	4526	6352	4940	4159	78109	7101
Ospreys	7893	7340	8107	7500	9920	9247	0	12051	7239	7264	8445	7236	92242	8386
Scarlets	5888	7013	6466	6061	9546	6952	14568	0	8165	5569	5236	5504	80968	7361
Wales	23,733	23,977	25,169	23,323	27,692	24,402	45,981	48,771	25,634	25,243	23,879	20,557	338,361	30,760
Glasgow	6267	6800	7212	6800	6492	6641	6650	6562	0	8000	6634	6500	74558	6778
Edinb'h	3584	2479	4981	4324	4500	3254	2475	3618	23642	0	3159	3799	59815	5438
Scotland	9851	9279	12193	11124	10992	9895	9125	10180	23642	8000	9793	10299	134373	12,216
Treviso	1500	4000	1000	2500	2500	1900	3700	3000	3500	4000	0	5000	32600	2964
Zebre	1850	2430	2400	3000	1634	1500	2308	2000	1850	1500	4509	0	24981	2271
Italy	3350	6430	3400	5500	4134	3400	6008	5000	5350	5500	4509	5000	57581	5,235

Total Away	82598	89586	108867	74414	81402	79041	98625	111187	101605	75649	71447	77251		1,051,672
Avg Away	7509	8144	9897	6765	7400	7186	8966	10108	9237	6877	6495	7023		7967

by Pot Hale Tue Apr 19, 2016 11:28 am

Crowd attendances - Country vs Country - PRO12 2015/16

	Ireland	Wales	Scotland	Italy	Total	%
Ireland	198,136	164,675	83,885	74,661	521,357	50%
Wales	96,202	146,846	50,877	44,436	338,361	32%
Scotland	42,447	40,192	31,642	20,092	134,373	13%
Italy	18,680	18,542	10,850	9,509	57,581	5%
					1,051,672	100%

by thebandwagonsociety Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:16 am

Some very curious figures there. Nice work Pot Hale.

Scarlets, Munster and Glasgow on the road have the biggest impact on attendances with Osprey slightly behind.

Edinburgh's total attendance for the season would fit inside Murrayfield and almost half of that figure came from the Glasgow game!! wow

by Guest Wed Apr 20, 2016 12:54 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Some very curious figures there. Nice work Pot Hale.

Scarlets, Munster and Glasgow on the road have the biggest impact on attendances with Osprey slightly behind.

Edinburgh's total attendance for the season would fit inside Murrayfield and almost half of that figure came from the Glasgow game!! wow

What makes you think so?

by SecretFly Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:08 am

................. sorry, I must have taken a wrong turn at Albuquerque. Could someone direct me to the rugby section. The mathematical number charts here scare me.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:12 am

Munchkin wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:Some very curious figures there. Nice work Pot Hale.

Scarlets, Munster and Glasgow on the road have the biggest impact on attendances with Osprey slightly behind.

Edinburgh's total attendance for the season would fit inside Murrayfield and almost half of that figure came from the Glasgow game!! wow

What makes you think so?

Average away attendances -:
Scarlets - 10,108
Munster - 9,897
Glasgow - 9,327

Whether it is that more fans from those sides travel to away games, or more home fans turn up to the matches they were involved in is up for discussion mind.

by Guest Wed Apr 20, 2016 1:23 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
thebandwagonsociety wrote:Some very curious figures there. Nice work Pot Hale.

Scarlets, Munster and Glasgow on the road have the biggest impact on attendances with Osprey slightly behind.

Edinburgh's total attendance for the season would fit inside Murrayfield and almost half of that figure came from the Glasgow game!! wow

What makes you think so?

Average away attendances -:
Scarlets - 10,108
Munster - 9,897
Glasgow - 9,327

Whether it is that more fans from those sides travel to away games, or more home fans turn up to the matches they were involved in is up for discussion mind.

ah, thanks, Scarlets. Think some of the inter-pros bump the figures up for some, although it doesn't help explain why Ulsters away figure is as low as it is. Nobody like watching us? Cry

Edit: actually the inter-pros do help explain the lower figure Smile

by Pot Hale Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:24 am

Ulster's home attendances are very impressive and very consistent. The renovation of Ravenhill has given them a great return. Easily the best team in terms of average attendance.

I had a quick look at previous seasons and it would seem Leinster and Munster are falling. Connacht on the rise. Lam's recent public statement about increasing Sportsground into a multi-event 10-15k stadium and seeking to involve business community is getting good feedback locally.

by SecretFly Wed Apr 20, 2016 4:38 am

It would be no surprise that both Leinster and Munster's support has died away given where their injection of support originally came from; s-u-c-c-e-s-s.

So Ulster keep chugging along at a steady pace, looking for ultimate success - fans are still hoping rather than feeling deflated at having fallen so far.

Connacht are driving ahead, gaining more and more support from their adventurous rugby.

And Leinster and Munster have had to endure the fall away that always comes after being so high. It's like a tide.... or a breath of air. The intake and the outflow.

Despite all the friction and confusion caused by the rugby landscape in Europe changing so dramatically in the last few years, I think actually that the omens are good still for Irish Provincial rugby to find a grip on all contests again - and maybe sooner than we now imagine.

There has been a revolution yes - but I think we're in the phase of already getting up off the floor and dusting ourselves down.... we thought the wound was fatal but I think it's just a flesh wound after all Wink

by Pot Hale Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:47 am

0oerr....It's all gone very Albuquerque in here.... Injections of teams chugging, breathing tides, their inflows, outflows, friction, confusion, good omens, getting a grip, revolutions, getting up, dusting down, flesh wounds are not fatalities... the end is not nigh.

You could write the Ulysses of Rugby, Fly.

by wayne Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:51 am

Pot Hale wrote:Crowd attendances by Team - PRO 12 2015/16 (figures from PRO 12 website)

Home team on left hand column. Read left to right. (Attendances for Rounds 21 & 22 have been estimated.)
Away teams from top to bottom. Any errors are unintentional.

Home/Opp

Connacht

Leinster

Munster

Ulster

Cardiff

Dragons

Ospreys

Scarlets

Glasgow

Edinb'h

Treviso

Zebre

Tot. Home

Avg Home
Connacht
0
7300
7786
5876
3274
3624
5279
5292
7700
3834
3443
3994
57402
5218
Leinster
14297
0
43108
15552
13300
10400
10897
14743
11089
10233
10000
8612
162231
14748
Munster
15143
25600
0
13039
6124
13552
7791
12000
11713
7000
5425
13063
130450
11859
Ulster
16224
17000
17211
0
15886
13768
13544
15201
16477
15839
14398
15726
171274
15570
Ireland

45,664

49,900

68,105

34,467

38,584

41,344

37,511

47,236

46,979

36,906

33,266

41,395

521,357

47,396
Cardiff
5824
5321
5017
5279
0
8203
25000
11720
5704
6058
5258
3658
87042
7913
Dragons
4128
4303
5579
4483
8226
0
6413
25000
4526
6352
4940
4159
78109
7101
Ospreys
7893
7340
8107
7500
9920
9247
0
12051
7239
7264
8445
7236
92242
8386
Scarlets
5888
7013
6466
6061
9546
6952
14568
0
8165
5569
5236
5504
80968
7361
Wales

23,733

23,977

25,169

23,323

27,692

24,402

45,981

48,771

25,634

25,243

23,879

20,557

338,361

30,760
Glasgow
6267
6800
7212
6800
6492
6641
6650
6562
0
8000
6634
6500
74558
6778
Edinb'h
3584
2479
4981
4324
4500
3254
2475
3618
23642
0
3159
3799
59815
5438
Scotland

9851

9279

12193

11124

10992

9895

9125

10180

23642

8000

9793

10299

134373

12,216
Treviso
1500
4000
1000
2500
2500
1900
3700
3000
3500
4000
0
5000
32600
2964
Zebre
1850
2430
2400
3000
1634
1500
2308
2000
1850
1500
4509
0
24981
2271
Italy

3350

6430

3400

5500

4134

3400

6008

5000

5350

5500

4509

5000

57581

5,235

Total Away
82598
89586
108867
74414
81402
79041
98625
111187
101605
75649
71447
77251

1,051,672
Avg Away
7509
8144
9897
6765
7400
7186
8966
10108
9237
6877
6495
7023

7967

Pot, in the table above it is estimated that our game Ospreys v Ulster in the last game a crowd of 7500 will attend, I think that will be under estimate of a few thousand, we ( Ospreys) could still be in with a chance of qualifying for RCC, and Ulster will be still in a dogfight for either play offs and / or RCC, when Ulster came to us in 2005/6 to win the Magners League or whatever it was back then, there was a decent crowd of over 10000 with loads of Ulstermen there. I anticipate the same for that weekend.

by thebandwagonsociety Wed Apr 20, 2016 5:55 am

On an aside, I think Ulster having a more regular occuring kick off time for home matches (friday nights) makes it easier to plan for. A pain for anyone who has to travel to Belfast (as opposed to those coming out of work and catching the game), having a standardised time let's you plan a weekend far more easily.

Not the sole reason for attendances, not even a main reason. They get fabulous support. I just feel that you could grow into a saturday evening game in Galway, or a sunday afternoon game at the RDS being the regular occurance when a team is playing at home.

I say it as well from a TV point of view. When I get to Friday lunch time and think about rugby over the weekend, I wonder if Ulster are at home because it means making sure the bar that gets picked for post-work-pints needs a TV, happy days.

by marty2086 Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:03 am

thebandwagonsociety wrote:On an aside, I think Ulster having a more regular occuring kick off time for home matches (friday nights) makes it easier to plan for. A pain for anyone who has to travel to Belfast (as opposed to those coming out of work and catching the game), having a standardised time let's you plan a weekend far more easily.

Not the sole reason for attendances, not even a main reason. They get fabulous support. I just feel that you could grow into a saturday evening game in Galway, or a sunday afternoon game at the RDS being the regular occurance when a team is playing at home.

Not exactly true, I know there are a few Ulster fans on here would prefer a few more games not on a Friday evening to enable to get more often because of travel times. Its great for those who maybe live and work in and around Belfast.

The consistency probably makes it easier to sell season tickets though.

by SecretFly Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:04 am

Pot Hale wrote:0oerr....It's all gone very Albuquerque in here.... Injections of teams chugging, breathing tides, their inflows, outflows, friction, confusion, good omens, getting a grip, revolutions, getting up, dusting down, flesh wounds are not fatalities... the end is not nigh.

You could write the Ulysses of Rugby, Fly.

See how exciting Pro12 is Pot. Now all we have to do is communicate that successfully to Jeremy Guscott...... That's the steep climb. That might be the death of us after all, convincing him that we matter......... Wink

by Pot Hale Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:05 am

wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Crowd attendances by Team - PRO 12 2015/16 (figures from PRO 12 website)

Home team on left hand column. Read left to right. (Attendances for Rounds 21 & 22 have been estimated.)
Away teams from top to bottom. Any errors are unintentional
9237
6877
6495
7023

7967
Pot, in the table above it is estimated that our game Ospreys v Ulster in the last game a crowd of 7500 will attend, I think that will be under estimate of a few thousand, we ( Ospreys) could still be in with a chance of qualifying for RCC, and Ulster will be still in a dogfight for either play offs and / or RCC, when Ulster came to us in 2005/6 to win the Magners League or whatever it was back then, there was a decent crowd of over 10000 with loads of Ulstermen there. I anticipate the same for that weekend.

That's great news, Wayne. I just based the figures on similar games during the season.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Apr 20, 2016 6:24 pm

thebandwagonsociety wrote:On an aside, I think Ulster having a more regular occuring kick off time for home matches (friday nights) makes it easier to plan for. A pain for anyone who has to travel to Belfast (as opposed to those coming out of work and catching the game), having a standardised time let's you plan a weekend far more easily.

Mmmm that sounds awfully familiar. Witch, Witch, Burn them!!!!!

by wayne Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:36 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Crowd attendances by Team - PRO 12 2015/16 (figures from PRO 12 website)

Home team on left hand column. Read left to right. (Attendances for Rounds 21 & 22 have been estimated.)
Away teams from top to bottom. Any errors are unintentional
9237
6877
6495
7023

7967
Pot, in the table above it is estimated that our game Ospreys v Ulster in the last game a crowd of 7500 will attend, I think that will be under estimate of a few thousand, we ( Ospreys) could still be in with a chance of qualifying for RCC, and Ulster will be still in a dogfight for either play offs and / or RCC, when Ulster came to us in 2005/6 to win the Magners League or whatever it was back then, there was a decent crowd of over 10000 with loads of Ulstermen there. I anticipate the same for that weekend.

That's great news, Wayne. I just based the figures on similar games during the season.

Pot let me just add, it has been announced today that there have been 57,000 tickets sold for Judgement Day and there is normally a pretty decent walk up crowd on the day, it will be over 60,000 when the match is played, so your 25,000 is again a bit of an under estimate.
Although to put 30,000 on each of the home teams totals (Blues and Dragons) is a bit of a travesty as normally they are outnumbered by both Welsh Western Regions Fans.

by LordDowlais Wed Apr 20, 2016 8:43 pm

wayne wrote:Although to put 30,000 on each of the home teams totals (Blues and Dragons) is a bit of a travesty as normally they are outnumbered by both Welsh Western Regions Fans.

Do not let PhillBB here you say that, he reckons there is nothing going on outside of Cardiff and Cardiff are the yardstick for professional rugby.

picard

by Pot Hale Thu Apr 21, 2016 10:19 am

wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Crowd attendances by Team - PRO 12 2015/16 (figures from PRO 12 website)

Home team on left hand column. Read left to right. (Attendances for Rounds 21 & 22 have been estimated.)
Away teams from top to bottom. Any errors are unintentional
9237
6877
6495
7023

7967
Pot, in the table above it is estimated that our game Ospreys v Ulster in the last game a crowd of 7500 will attend, I think that will be under estimate of a few thousand, we ( Ospreys) could still be in with a chance of qualifying for RCC, and Ulster will be still in a dogfight for either play offs and / or RCC, when Ulster came to us in 2005/6 to win the Magners League or whatever it was back then, there was a decent crowd of over 10000 with loads of Ulstermen there. I anticipate the same for that weekend.

That's great news, Wayne. I just based the figures on similar games during the season.
Pot let me just add, it has been announced today that there have been 57,000 tickets sold for Judgement Day and there is normally a pretty decent walk up crowd on the day, it will be over 60,000 when the match is played, so your 25,000 is again a bit of an under estimate.
Although to put 30,000 on each of the home teams totals (Blues and Dragons) is a bit of a travesty as normally they are outnumbered by both Welsh Western Regions Fans.

I'll you what I'll do, Wayne. When the actual games are played and we have the actual attendances, I'll put them into the table - how about that?

by wayne Thu Apr 21, 2016 5:29 pm

Pot Hale wrote:
wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Crowd attendances by Team - PRO 12 2015/16 (figures from PRO 12 website)

Home team on left hand column. Read left to right. (Attendances for Rounds 21 & 22 have been estimated.)
Away teams from top to bottom. Any errors are unintentional
9237
6877
6495
7023

7967
Pot, in the table above it is estimated that our game Ospreys v Ulster in the last game a crowd of 7500 will attend, I think that will be under estimate of a few thousand, we ( Ospreys) could still be in with a chance of qualifying for RCC, and Ulster will be still in a dogfight for either play offs and / or RCC, when Ulster came to us in 2005/6 to win the Magners League or whatever it was back then, there was a decent crowd of over 10000 with loads of Ulstermen there. I anticipate the same for that weekend.

That's great news, Wayne. I just based the figures on similar games during the season.
Pot let me just add, it has been announced today that there have been 57,000 tickets sold for Judgement Day and there is normally a pretty decent walk up crowd on the day, it will be over 60,000 when the match is played, so your 25,000 is again a bit of an under estimate.
Although to put 30,000 on each of the home teams totals (Blues and Dragons) is a bit of a travesty as normally they are outnumbered by both Welsh Western Regions Fans.

I'll you what I'll do, Wayne. When the actual games are played and we have the actual attendances, I'll put them into the table - how about that?

I'm not criticising Pot, pleased you put the figures up, should have put a smiley up Very Happy

by **RiscaGame** Thu Apr 21, 2016 8:03 pm

It's not a travesty at all, as the games are their home games.

by wayne Tue Apr 26, 2016 2:28 am

wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:
wayne wrote:
Pot Hale wrote:Crowd attendances by Team - PRO 12 2015/16 (figures from PRO 12 website)

Home team on left hand column. Read left to right. (Attendances for Rounds 21 & 22 have been estimated.)
Away teams from top to bottom. Any errors are unintentional
9237
6877
6495
7023

7967
Pot, in the table above it is estimated that our game Ospreys v Ulster in the last game a crowd of 7500 will attend, I think that will be under estimate of a few thousand, we ( Ospreys) could still be in with a chance of qualifying for RCC, and Ulster will be still in a dogfight for either play offs and / or RCC, when Ulster came to us in 2005/6 to win the Magners League or whatever it was back then, there was a decent crowd of over 10000 with loads of Ulstermen there. I anticipate the same for that weekend.

That's great news, Wayne. I just based the figures on similar games during the season.
Pot let me just add, it has been announced today that there have been 57,000 tickets sold for Judgement Day and there is normally a pretty decent walk up crowd on the day, it will be over 60,000 when the match is played, so your 25,000 is again a bit of an under estimate.
Although to put 30,000 on each of the home teams totals (Blues and Dragons) is a bit of a travesty as normally they are outnumbered by both Welsh Western Regions Fans.

Pot, just to add it's been announced 62,000 tickets been sold, selling at aprox. 600 a day towards the end of last week, and it was revealed over 5000 was the walk up crowd last year, the place should be rocking.

by carpet baboon Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:05 am

How are the gate receipts split on these judgement day games?

by PenfroPete Tue Apr 26, 2016 4:28 am

Not many left now, if you look at the interactive ticketing seat map

https://www.eticketing.co.uk/principalitystadium/details/event.aspx?itemref=2051

by wayne Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:02 am

PenfroPete wrote:Not many left now, if you look at the interactive ticketing seat map

https://www.eticketing.co.uk/principalitystadium/details/event.aspx?itemref=2051

Are you going Pete, if so what block are you seated, we're in block M24, in one of the corners, not very happy as we bought our tickets very early on.

by wayne Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:07 am

carpet baboon wrote:How are the gate receipts split on these judgement day games?

Carpet, I would presume after the WRU take their cut out (and that won't be small) the 2 Home teams will share what is over, which will be considerably more than what they would have made if they actually played at their home grounds. IIRC the WRU take what is taken at the bars.

by carpet baboon Tue Apr 26, 2016 6:14 am

wayne wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:How are the gate receipts split on these judgement day games?
Carpet, I would presume after the WRU take their cut out (and that won't be small) the 2 Home teams will share what is over, which will be considerably more than what they would have made if they actually played at their home grounds. IIRC the WRU take what is taken at the bars.

Cheers. That's not to bad is it. Looking like a full house so a decent payday for all

by ScarletSpiderman Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:31 am

wayne wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:How are the gate receipts split on these judgement day games?
Carpet, I would presume after the WRU take their cut out (and that won't be small) the 2 Home teams will share what is over, which will be considerably more than what they would have made if they actually played at their home grounds. IIRC the WRU take what is taken at the bars.

I'm not totally sold it would be too much more. Tickets for Derby games tend to be what £25? Then there beer, burgers, programmes etc. It is likely to be a bigger pay day than if the matches were in the home grounds, but to give away home advantage is it worth it. That said I can see the Ospreys and Dragons gaining support from the other regions fans, so for the Dragons that may be a boost.

by Pot Hale Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:39 am

And they're likely will be another J Day event added into season with the other two teams at home.

Anayi wants an extra round of derbies added into the revamped conference league from 2017/18 season.

by ScarletSpiderman Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:44 am

Pot, the original plan was for it to be the east Wales Derby and the west wales Derby. But both the Ospreys and Scarlets told them to take a hike, as they fill their grounds for those games anyway, so there would be very insignificant financial gain for the loss of home ground advantage.

I know a lot has changed in the last few years, but I can't see either team budging on the 'big' derby match. And would there be enough interest in two lesser Derby double headers?

by SecretFly Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:48 am

Maybe the Welsh clubs should play all of their derby games for the season over one not big but totally Massive weekend?

Call it Armageddon 2Days (Anayi now can't use that name unless he contacts me beforehand if the idea kicks off) Wink

by Guest Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:57 am

SecretFly wrote:Maybe the Welsh clubs should play all of their derby games for the season over one not big but totally Massive weekend?

Call it Armageddon 2Days (Anayi now can't use that name unless he contacts me beforehand if the idea kicks off)

Armageddon 2Day. That should fill the stands and the churches.

by PenfroPete Tue Apr 26, 2016 8:53 am

wayne wrote:
PenfroPete wrote:Not many left now, if you look at the interactive ticketing seat map

https://www.eticketing.co.uk/principalitystadium/details/event.aspx?itemref=2051
Are you going Pete, if so what block are you seated, we're in block M24, in one of the corners, not very happy as we bought our tickets very early on.

U11 Row 7 Wayne. Held off when all the middle tier had gone and they hadn't opened up the upper tier for sale

by **RiscaGame** Tue Apr 26, 2016 9:38 am

Are you meeting folk Pete? I have my ticket, but might be playing now for the Cuckoos. I'm hoping that's called off though.

Typically I got offered frees to Army v Navy as guest of the RAFRU, but I turned them down for this and now I might not get to go anyway.

by PenfroPete Tue Apr 26, 2016 5:39 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Are you meeting folk Pete? I have my ticket, but might be playing now for the Cuckoos. I'm hoping that's called off though.

Typically I got offered frees to Army v Navy as guest of the RAFRU, but I turned them down for this and now I might not get to go anyway.

Just myself, herself, Cari and her mate at the moment. Not quite sure where we're going pre & post-match, you still on 07......332 ?

by **RiscaGame** Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:11 pm

Yes mate.

by PenfroPete Tue Apr 26, 2016 7:46 pm

RiscaGame wrote:Yes mate.

Will give you a shout when I know what's happening on the day Ale

by wayne Wed Apr 27, 2016 4:53 am

ScarletSpiderman wrote:
wayne wrote:
carpet baboon wrote:How are the gate receipts split on these judgement day games?
Carpet, I would presume after the WRU take their cut out (and that won't be small) the 2 Home teams will share what is over, which will be considerably more than what they would have made if they actually played at their home grounds. IIRC the WRU take what is taken at the bars.

I'm not totally sold it would be too much more. Tickets for Derby games tend to be what £25? Then there beer, burgers, programmes etc. It is likely to be a bigger pay day than if the matches were in the home grounds, but to give away home advantage is it worth it. That said I can see the Ospreys and Dragons gaining support from the other regions fans, so for the Dragons that may be a boost.

SS, Gareth Davies announced today it is up to 63500 and adding 7 to 8 hundred a day, I don't think it will be full at any time, but over 65000 should be achievable, it was said in the same Fail article that there are talks ongoing about another double header either at the Liberty or MS, whether it is an all Welsh or even against the Irish.

by ScarletSpiderman Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:01 am

The library would be a pointless venue for an all Welsh encounter, given the combined attendances of the Scarlets v Dragons and Ospreys v Blues would be in excess of its capacity. So if anything it would lower the attendance. Likewise against the Irish it would not really be of any gain compared to true home advantage.

Also if these double headers are so great why not have Edinburgh and Glasgow play the Italian side in Rome or Murrayfeild? Or and all Irish affair in the Aviva?

by SecretFly Wed Apr 27, 2016 5:06 am

There are all-Irish affairs at Lansdowne... not double headers but then that would be counter productive as Leinster/Munster usually close-enough fill the stadium on their own anyway.... and in good times have had more wanting tickets than could fit in.

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