Scotland's Summer Tests, 18 & 25 June

First topic message reminder :


Referee: Ben O'Keeffe (New Zealand)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

5 Played 5
0 Won 5
0 Drawn 0
5 Lost 0
55 Points 266 

B. Recent Form

23 September 2015
Scotland 45-10 Japan
Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester

09 Nov 2013
Scotland 42 - 17 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

13 Nov 2004
Scotland 100 - 8 Japan
McDiarmid Park, Perth

12 Oct 2003
Scotland 32 - 11 Japan
Dairy Farmers Stadium, Townsville

05 Oct 1991
Scotland 47 - 9 Japan
Murrayfield, Edinburgh

C. Teams

JAPAN 
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SCOTLAND 
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SCOTLAND 

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Scotland / Japan history:

2015: Scotland 45-10 Japan, Kingsholm Stadium, Gloucester (RWC 2015)
2013: Scotland 42-17 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh
2010: Scotland XV 24-5 Japan Select, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)
2004: Scotland 100-8 Japan, McDiarmid Park, Perth
2003: Japan 11-32 Scotland, Dairy Farmers Stadium, Townsville (RWC 2003)
1991: Scotland 47-9 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (RWC 1991)
1989: Japan 28-24 Scotland XV, Prince Chichibu Memorial Stadium, Tokyo (uncapped match)
1986: Scotland XV 33-18 Japan, BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)
1977: Japan 9-74 Scotland XV, Olympic Stadium, Tokyo (uncapped match)
1976: Scotland XV 34-9 Japan,  BT Murrayfield, Edinburgh (uncapped match)

Scotland Squad:

If Lamont is travelling to hold tackle bags and provide a positive influence on the squad then fine. His continued selection is becoming a joke though and I'll be very disappointed if he gets more gametime than Hoyland.

And for those bemoaning our lack of depth on the wing, how is picking a slow geriatric going to solve that?!

We're never going to find out if the likes of Brown or Jones are up for it unless we pick them.

Take Tom Brown - he's a regular starter for Edinburgh and is a consistent top performer, which is no mean feat in an Edinburgh team which doesn't use wingers. He was also a standout player in the 1872 cup, which is also essentially a  Scotland trial. He's a seasoned pro and absolutely ready to make the step up to see how he does. He might not have what it takes but then again he might!

I suspect the likes of yourself and Biggee will trott out the same arguments used in the Toolis debate, but the bottom line is we're lacking depth at wing but he's flat out refusing to select the players who may fill that gap!

When you say Seasoned Pro. you could also say had their chance and not taken it. Both of them have been capped remember, but neither really kicked on at that level. Are they the answer to our lack of depth going forward, I think we all probably know the answer to that. Toonie has dropped Jones for Lamont this week as well and gone for his experience, LJ did not play particularly well last time out for Glasgow.

We are blooding an exciting young winger on this tour, of all the current young pretenders, he does look like the exciting one and he will hopefully get the game time he needs.

I don't think it is the same situation as with Toolis, who is still young and pretty much untested at international level and has plenty of development still to do. I hope he will get his chance at some stage, if he earns it.

BigGee wrote:I don't think it is the same situation as with Toolis, who is still young and pretty much untested at international level and has plenty of development still to do. I hope he will get his chance at some stage, if he earns it.

The criteria for determining if a player has earned it seems to vary wildly from certain players to others when VC is involved

I don't think anyone thinks they are genuine competition for a regular starting place, but we're talking about depth here. If Visser and Maitland are injured in the next 6N (a strong possibility given their injury record) are we really going to call up a 37 year old Lamont?

I'd quite like someone to explain how you build depth without making the most of the resources you have and actually getting them involved - I e. Players that won't be claiming their bus pass by the next world cup.

In other news, Jamie farndale scored a fantastic try for the 7s this morning. He looks the real deal - big, strong and fast.

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

BigGee wrote:I don't think it is the same situation as with Toolis, who is still young and pretty much untested at international level and has plenty of development still to do. I hope he will get his chance at some stage, if he earns it.

The criteria for determining if a player has earned it seems to vary wildly from certain players to others when VC is involved

Absolutely.

If you're an Edinburgh player you have to have won 3 world cups before 'earning' it.

If you're from Glasgow and make an odd appearance off the bench then you've well and truly earned it and are straight in the squad!

Fantastic servant as Lamont has been for Scotland and Glasgow etc, it really should have been somebody younger called up for this tour when Visser was replaced. I worry that Lamont getting another contract at Glasgow will hinder the likes of Hughes and especially Junior who I had high hopes for when he played so well in his few games early in the season.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

TheMildlyFranticLlama wrote:

BigGee wrote:I don't think it is the same situation as with Toolis, who is still young and pretty much untested at international level and has plenty of development still to do. I hope he will get his chance at some stage, if he earns it.

The criteria for determining if a player has earned it seems to vary wildly from certain players to others when VC is involved

Absolutely.

If you're an Edinburgh player you have to have won 3 world cups before 'earning' it.

If you're from Glasgow and make an odd appearance off the bench then you've well and truly earned it and are straight in the squad!

One thing you can say about Lamont is that he certainly has earned it. Ok, we all know he is no world beater any more, nor has been for some time, but he never lets us down nor rarely has a bad game. He brought some real impact off the bench when he came on for Glasgow last week.

I certainly was not shouting for him to go on tour but by the same token, I am not seeing anyone else putting the hand up, other than Hoyland. Jones was probably the closest, but may have blown his chance by his poor game against Connacht last time out. Brown has had his best season as a pro and yes he did make a great tackle on Big T, though injuring himself in the process. Bear in mind though that it has taken him 5 years to establish himself in the Edinburgh side, which does not exactly scream international quality at you.

I suspect Lamont will only play if there are injuries and remember he can cover a few other positions than wing (we can add flanker to his versatility as well now). I suspect though that he will be a good guy to have in the squad.

There are wing places up for Scottish players in the future though and it is up to the kids to put up their hands and grab them.

I understand what you are saying BigGee, Brown and Jones are never going to be world beaters at international level. I also like Shlong, his commitment is unbelievable and he never lets anybody down. However, right now our depth at wing is paper thin. Seymour, Visser and Maitland and then a chasm down to the likes of Nairn, Robbins, and Farndale. Given an injury to any of the first group, we are going to have to include those players somewhere in the middle, Im talking about Hoyland, Hughes, Jones and Brown. Yes, he has rewarded Hoyland who is the most promising, but I honestly don't see what the squad would have lost by including Brown or Jones, over the season they have both played equally as well as SL.

Another option he could have explored is the inclusion of a second FB (Maitland and Jackson probably providing cover as it stands), Glen Bryce has certainly played well when given the chance, again a position where we have very few options.

Don't forget we also have the option of Taylor on the wing. He has played there for Sarries a fair bit this season and played well. He is a very versatile player who seems comfortable in just about any position in the back row.

I am sure Hoyland will get a shot on this tour which will hopefully get him up to international pace and other places will be up for grabs over the next few years.

EST wrote:I understand what you are saying BigGee, Brown and Jones are never going to be world beaters at international level.  I also like Shlong, his commitment is unbelievable and he never lets anybody down.  However, right now our depth at wing is paper thin.  Seymour, Visser and Maitland and then a chasm down to the likes of Nairn, Robbins, and Farndale.  Given an injury to any of the first group, we are going to have to include those players somewhere in the middle, Im talking about Hoyland, Hughes, Jones and Brown.  Yes, he has rewarded Hoyland who is the most promising, but I honestly don't see what the squad would have lost by including Brown or Jones, over the season they have both played equally as well as SL.

Another option he could have explored is the inclusion of a second FB (Maitland and Jackson probably providing cover as it stands), Glen Bryce has certainly played well when given the chance, again a position where we have very few options.

This!

Scotland running riot in the 7s against Kenya - Hoyland and Farndale looking very good.

Hoyland should at least be pitching up to the Scotland camp with loads of confidence!

This is rather off topic but anyone not watching the Sarries-Tigers game should try and find a feed now.

Sarries (with Duncan Taylor at the forefront) are dishing up an absolute arse kicking.

In the 7s, we drew with France, beat Kenya (which is pretty bloody good given that Kenya won the Singers leg recently) and have Portugal at 4ish. Every chance of progressing in the main competition.

Even Suspiciously Old Scott is kicking well, apparently.

Scotland qualify for the cup and may well top their group, best results for a long time with several players really showing up, Farndale and Hoyland in particular. Farndale could be in with a real shout of a GB place if he can hang on to this kind of form.

I had a link for the sevens but it's been showing the wendyball instead Ended up watching Southern Kings v Sharks. Commentator saying Chiefs FB Jurgen Visser has family connections with Troon (which I'm given to understand is near Ayr...)

May be SQ?

Not that he's any good - even if not I'm pretty sure Solly will be signing him for Edinburgh given he's a Saffer

For those interested there was a U20 warm up game between France and Scotland. Scotland started well leading 12-0 but eventually fell apart.
Some good skills on display (well if we except some of the tackling...specially on the French 2nd try).
Summary:
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x4br9i3_france-ecosse-moins-20-ans-le-resume_sport

Wales had 15 players away with the Lions and choose to take a young inexperienced squad to Japan a couple of years ago and lost the second test. I'd take your best XV but take some kids to blood off the bench. Win the first test and see how things go in the second test, maybe start a few new guys and bring the experienced ones on later on.

Scotland pumped England in the cup quarter finals and now play USA in the semi final at 15:10.

Beaten England 2 weeks in a row now, yet only have 5 players in the 24 man Team GB squad!

Finn Russell looks like he took a bad one yesterday. Other than being a major factor in Glasgow losing, it must place his summer tour in doubt.

What do we think VC will do about FH cover if he does not go?

Duncan Weir looks shot atm and could do with a summer to regroup.

Does he just go with Horne as the back up and take another centre (Glen Byrce would probably get my vote). Or does he take another FH. I would imagine that McHeathcote would be next in line. By all accounts he has had a decent season for Worcester.

It would give Jacko a chance to put down a marker as well. He played well when he came on for Hogg against Wales, then did not get another look in.

Russell shouldn't tour even if he ultimately passes the tests. It was a bad one - he's still in hospital.

I'd say Jackson starting with Horne backup - Weir left at home.

I suspect Weir will get a call up, but he injured himself yesterday too.

Scotland win the London 7s beating SA, having needed 2 tries with 1 minute left - Dougie Fife MOTM and Hoyland player of the tournament!

Holy crap!

Amazing, amazing scenes. Just wow, when we got 1 back thought here we go again, the inevitable so close but so far, gallant loser finish coming up. But no. Just wow. Fantastic.



full showing of the final there for anyone who missed or wants to gorge!

Thank you Graham. Can't quite believe it.

I've watched it 10 times already!

It's a tremendous achievement by the 7s team, just trying to work out how many of them are Solomons rejects; Blake, Farndale, McLennan, Fife, Fleming at least.
Hope Blake gets some decent game time for Glasgow in the back row next year, he looks a very capable player.

MacKnocked-on wrote:It's a tremendous achievement by the 7s team, just trying to work out how many of them are Solomons rejects; Blake, Farndale, McLennan, Fife, Fleming at least.
Hope Blake gets some decent game time for Glasgow in the back row next year, he looks a very capable player.

How many would you take back though...

I don't think Flemming has ever featured in the Edinburgh setup to be fair.

Jamie Farndale is the pick of the bunch for me - he is an absolutely unit now and very fast and powerful. I suspect he'll make the Team GB squad.

RDW_Scotland wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:It's a tremendous achievement by the 7s team, just trying to work out how many of them are Solomons rejects; Blake, Farndale, McLennan, Fife, Fleming at least.
Hope Blake gets some decent game time for Glasgow in the back row next year, he looks a very capable player.

How many would you take back though...

I don't think Flemming has ever featured in the Edinburgh setup to be fair.

Jamie Farndale is the pick of the bunch for me - he is an absolutely unit now and very fast and powerful.  I suspect he'll make the Team GB squad.

Fife is the only one who really got any game time for Edinburgh, the rest could easily argue they weren't given a chance to prove themselves. McLennan played a prominent role at scrum half/stand off at Twickenham, did he ever get a game at 10 for Edinburgh?

McLennan played quite a lot for Edinburgh at 15 and was pretty average.  I don't think he ever classed himself as a 10 - he was an 'outside back' from memory. I'm not overly disappointed he's gone - especially with Kinghorn and Bryce at 15.

We know what happened with Hugh Blake but we don't need another 7!

Farndale broke his leg just as he was about to break through and had a long time building himself up again.

I don't think Flemming has ever been involved with Edinburgh - he is absolutely rapid though!

Mark Robertson has massively resurrected his career having suffered numerous injury problems at Edinburgh. I remember at the time his form was pushing him for a Scotland cap but he kept picking up niggly injuries and ended up calling it a day, only to come back strongly with the 7s.

MacKnocked-on wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:

MacKnocked-on wrote:It's a tremendous achievement by the 7s team, just trying to work out how many of them are Solomons rejects; Blake, Farndale, McLennan, Fife, Fleming at least.
Hope Blake gets some decent game time for Glasgow in the back row next year, he looks a very capable player.

How many would you take back though...

I don't think Flemming has ever featured in the Edinburgh setup to be fair.

Jamie Farndale is the pick of the bunch for me - he is an absolutely unit now and very fast and powerful.  I suspect he'll make the Team GB squad.

Fife is the only one who really got any game time for Edinburgh, the rest could easily argue they weren't given a chance to prove themselves. McLennan played a prominent role at scrum half/stand off at Twickenham, did he ever get a game at 10 for Edinburgh?

There are a few in the 7s set up who are very unlucky not to be involved in pro teams and playing regularly. James Johnstone springs to mind for me. One of the stand outs on the 7s circuit, quick, powerful and good handling skills. Could easily be a starting 13 at Edinburgh but was never given a chance. Is the current Edinburgh 13 Michael Allen any better than him.......No.
Dougie Fife didn't have a great season but has that been down to him or down to the tactics than Solomons has installed at Edinburgh. He showed yesterday that he still has got the skills to be a very good finisher. He has been replaced at Edinburgh by Rory Scholes.....is he going to be better than fife?

Jamie Farndale looked back to his old self and has been like that for the past few tournaments. Really lost his confidence after his leg break and then another leg injury not long after coming back. Looks very confident now, has his speed back and also has added a power game to his skills. Still only 22 I think and for me should definitely be involved at Edinburgh or Glasgow.

The problem is I see no point in them signing for Edinburgh this season and only making a handful of appearances - we're now well stocked on the wings, even if one of them is Will Helu and the other is Northern Irish.

The other thing worth bearing in mind is that 7s is very different from 15s - we can't expect immediate miracles if they were brought back into the pro setup.

Yeah we can't expect miracles straight away but the performances that these guys are putting in shows that these guys don't just have potential but can deliver.
The problem is that more often than not whoever has been in charge of the pro teams especially Edinburgh haven't wanted to take a chance and have gone for the easy option of a foreign journeyman. These type of players have probably cost more and in a lot of cases haven't delivered.

Part of the problem is that we don't get the most out of the foreign players that we bring in - Will Helu scored 2 tries for Wasps against Toulon last season but has been rank average this season and ultimately lost his place in the squad.

Michael Allen has been a good signing but with Bureilgh/Rasolea at 12 we're going to have a non-SQ midfield. Chris Dean will be our only SQ centre!

Why are we signing these foreign players though when some of them are average at best and we know that when we sign them.
We have good players who could potentially be very good who in the past haven't had a look in like the ones I've mentioned and others who haven't been given a chance because they have gone down the foreign player route.
Edinburgh's centre options next season are a disgrace with only having 1 SQ centre. Allen, Burleigh, Rasolea are ok players but they aren't outstanding and shouldn't be blocking potentially good Scottish players.
I don't mind if Edinburgh were to bring in some very good foreign players that are really going to add to the team but a lot of the current ones don't add anything that a SQ player would.

Majestic83 wrote:
I don't mind if Edinburgh were to bring in some very good foreign players that are really going to add to the team but a lot of the current ones don't add anything that a SQ player would.

I think we'd all agree with that.

Again with Helu it is easy to be critical with hindsight but at the time he was brought in to replace Visser - he was a big strong winger who scored tries for Wasps so it seemed like a good signing at the time.

The problem with the Edinburgh centre situation is we don't really have any up and coming 12s to fill the gap left by Scott as far as I'm aware? There's a few promising under 20s but are they genuinely ready for step up straight away?

RDW_Scotland wrote:

Majestic83 wrote:
I don't mind if Edinburgh were to bring in some very good foreign players that are really going to add to the team but a lot of the current ones don't add anything that a SQ player would.

I think we'd all agree with that.

Again with Helu it is easy to be critical with hindsight but at the time he was brought in to replace Visser - he was a big strong winger who scored tries for Wasps so it seemed like a good signing at the time.

The problem with the Edinburgh centre situation is we don't really have any up and coming 12s to fill the gap left by Scott as far as I'm aware? There's a few promising under 20s but are they genuinely ready for step up straight away?

Helu could have potentially been a decent signing but he just hasn't performed. The one that does annoy me more is the signing of Rory Scholes and someone like Dougie Fife being released to make space for him. It has no benefit to Scottish rugby at all.
Same with Michael Allen, an ok player but doesn't benefit Scottish rugby in any way. If we have no players in a certain position like at 12 then fair enough if we have to use a foreign player until we develop somebody. Currently the homegrown front runners for 12 will be Tom galbraith and Paddy Kelly. Both of them probably aren't too far off being ready for pro rugby.
It does annoy me though when there are players who can do a job in position but get overlooked. Outside centre is a prime example at Edinburgh with them using Allen. There are 2 or 3 players not involved in Edinburgh or Glasgow who are just as good and possibly better who have been overlooked.

Now that Fife has been let go I agree that the Scholes signing is hard to take - we didn't know that at the time the signing was announced. I don't know much about Scholes but I'd be surprised if he's that much better than what we currently have.

But also we didn't know then that the likes of Fife and Farndale would have barntstorming tournaments to end the 7s circuit!

That is true, Fife has hit a rich vein of form probably just at the wrong time for him when it comes to XVs contracts.
Hopefully they wont be lost to XVs long term though and continued good form on the 7s circuit next season and they could be brought back in to XVs after that, Farndale especially.

Helu will be gone by then so there's every chance.

I agree with you regarding James Johnstone Maj, he has been consistently excellent for the 7's and has all the skills and physicality to make it in 15's. He could easily fulfil the role of Allan at Edinburgh, and I would say is better than Chris Dean also.

I also agree to an extent regarding the signing of average overseas players, where I would disagree is that I think Scholes will turn out to be a very, very good player for Edinburgh. He has got some pedigree and the Ulster fans were sad to see him go.

You have left Glen Byrce out of your discussions about who plays 13 for Edinburgh next year. He is as adapt there as at 15 and may well do a good job for you.

Scholes could end up being a very good player for you as well. He has always looked good every time I have seen him play for Ulster and the fans on this forum where not please when he left.

Fife did look good yesteday, but sevens is a very different game and he has not looked good all season. Perhaps it was a wake up call to him but I can't see him coming back to Edinburgh. Surely Farndale is the one to bring back and let him have a proper chance this time.

The 7s result and performance was completely awesome.

100% agree with those calling for Farndale. He and Hoyland ought to be our wingers next season - Farndale at 11 and Hoyland at 14. Nice contrast as well. Farndale being powerful and direct and Hoyland being short and speedy.

I'd let Bryce, Kinghorn, Scholes and Allen compete for the 13 and 15 jersey. Scholes to cover wing as well obviously, and Kinghorn covering 10 as 3rd choice behind Weir and Tovey.

I don't really see a role for Helu personally. Ship him to Glasgow if Lamont's hip starts to give him trouble.

24 MAY RUSSELL TO MISS SCOTLAND SUMMER TOUR

Glasgow Warriors stand-off Finn Russell has been ruled out of Scotland’s 2016 summer tour to Japan through injury.

The 19-times capped internationalist sustained a head injury in the Guinness PRO12 Play-Off in Galway and will remain in the care of his club’s medical team.

Any further adjustments to the Scotland touring party will be confirmed in due course.

The Scotland squad will convene at BT Murrayfield Stadium on Monday 6 June for a short camp before their departure for Tokyo the following Saturday (11 June).

The Test matches – live on BBC – will be played on consecutive Saturdays at J1 League football stadia; the first at the Toyota Stadium in Toyota City (18 June), the second at the Ajinomoto Stadium in Tokyo (25 June), homes of Nagoya Grampus and FC Tokyo respectively.

Blimey - I hope he's ok. Its a bit concerning they haven't elaborated in the injury or the extent of it, indeed how he's actually doing.

Glasgow released a statement - he is due out of the hospital later in the week but doesn't require surgery. He is awake and talking.

The fact that he'll be kept in the hospital almost a week is pretty serious though.

Im getting a bad feeling about this

They have said he does not need surgery. Probably for the best that he took a couple of months off but not like this. Have not heard about Fagerson or Favaro yet. Assume they are in better shape.

I guess Jackson becomes the starter and either Weir or Heathcote will get called up. Left field would be to have Horne cover 10-12 from the bench.

Ah I see, must have missed the Glasgow statement, but glad he's ok.

I reckon we'll see Weir called up to join Jacko as the tour 10's.

But maybe Horne should have another shot...

nickj wrote:Ah I see, must have missed the Glasgow statement, but glad he's ok.

I reckon we'll see Weir called up to join Jacko as the tour 10's.

But maybe Horne should have another shot...

We're running out of centres so I'd say Weir/Heathcote should get a chance. Weir hasn't been completely awful recently. No idea about Heathcote at the moment. The sooner our u20s are playing professional club rugby regularly the better!

Weir needs to rest up. He's got a big season ahead of him, and those kicking muscles could use the summer off.

I'd pick Heathcote as back-up personally.

I agree with the calls for Heathcote, at least he has been starting.