The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

SecretFly wrote:But it has become too much of a 'crowd-participation' X-Factor-y, boo-the-contestant-you-don't-want-to-go-through show, Scarlet.
It's now being used by home town TV, to set their crowds up, to boo the decisions, to make the ref's role even more pressurised than it was.  It's become the plaything of broadcasters that want to influence the result and must be looked at again.... not the footage, the concept

I'd agree with you on that, the tries that got allowed then disallowed in the RWC definitely back up that argument too. In an ideal world the big screen would just show the 'live' footage, and not the 'tv' footage. No replays unless it's a TMO review the ref wants to see.

Munchkin wrote:I agree with you, Kingshu. There will always be fans that blame the ref but, to be fair  on Munster fans, Munster fans do tend to blame the team/coach much more.

What about those fans that turn on the ref even when they win, or those that abuse the ref even before the game has started?

Surely there is something more honest in saying that the ref made very bad calls in your favour? If we were all being honest, we can all think of games where our sides have won games, and there have been a few calls that really should never have gone our way.

It's easier for supporters to say the ref made bad calls in their favour, when their teams wins, although I was only getting at those who moan about bad calls against their team when their team wins. And then we have those who are already close to calling the ref a cheat before the game starts.

Wayne Barnes? He gets that pre-match stuff a lot on the international boards.

Doesn't matter who it is really. It isn't a competition to find which fans moan the most Just that it happens.

I was trying to think of ones I hear mianed about the most pre-match. And then remembered a thread about how he was going to screw one side over, and a hefty amount of posters who usually get upset by ref bashing putting the boot in. Thinking about it, im sure there is a saying about green houses and stones for a fair few.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I was trying to think of ones I hear mianed about the most pre-match.  And then remembered a thread about how he was going to screw one side over, and a hefty amount of posters who usually get upset by ref bashing putting the boot in.  Thinking about it, im sure there is a saying about green houses and stones for a fair few.

Well, I think there is as well. I also think there's a difference in saying a ref is poor, or having a good moan about a ref making mistakes, than saying a ref, or a particular group of refs, are cheats. A big difference...

Martin Anayi has continued the rounds of media interviews he's been giving.  

In another recent one in irish newspaper, he's quoted as referring to the conference/pool system being very suited to a cross-border competition.   He's also quoted as saying he's in favour of introducing a top 6 style play-off to league.  And that his proposal to club CEOs is that matches should continue during international windows but maybe as part of a cup involving Irish and British teams from both leagues so a development pathway continues for lower profile players.  However, PRO12 matches would be more often filled with test players and he'd like to introduce an extra derby round of matches once they move to the conference/pool model.  Change unlikely to happen before 2017-18 season.  

The poor reffing image and empty stadia are also referred to and that whilst Sky are content with the viewing figures for a weekend of matches, empty seats and poor reffing displays are not helping.  

All interesting food for thought and seems to indicate that they're determined to change things up.

http://m.independent.ie/sport/rugby/connacht-rugby/lights-camera-action-34654329.html

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I was trying to think of ones I hear mianed about the most pre-match.  And then remembered a thread about how he was going to screw one side over, and a hefty amount of posters who usually get upset by ref bashing putting the boot in.  Thinking about it, im sure there is a saying about green houses and stones for a fair few.

Well, I think there is as well. I also think there's a difference in saying a ref is poor, or having a good moan about a ref making mistakes, than saying a ref, or a particular group of refs, are cheats. A big difference...

Yeah too true. Questioning how much extras a ref is going to earn for screwing your nation over prior to kick of is certainly not the same as saying that the ref has an in ability to spot offsides.

Maybe relegation would help.

I don't think relegation would help, as it doesn't lead to forward planing etc and there are no teams to come up, it also doesn't make the super rugby or 6 nations less competitive.

What I would like to see is that the CEO, Coach and Captain of the team that finishes bottom have to come onto the pitch and collect a giant wooden spoon, which they have to put in their display case until the end of the next season.

Relegation - top Welsh club in Welsh Premiership to replace bottom Welsh club in Pro12.

Even if that Welsh team finished in top 4 in the league?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Even if that Welsh team finished in top 4 in the league?

Yes, even if that Welsh team finished top 4 in the league.

It would make both the Pro12 and the Welsh Premiership more meaningful and more competitive.

So, would your plan be for each nation to lose the bottom club? How (if the Welsh did manage to get places 1-4) would losing the 4th best team in the league help strengthen either the Pro 12 or the Welsh representation?

No 7&1/2 wrote:So, would your plan be for each nation to lose the bottom club? How (if the Welsh did manage to get places 1-4) would losing the 4th best team in the league help strengthen either the Pro 12 or the Welsh representation?

Yes, each nation to lose its bottom club.

By making the competition more competitive and more meaningful, IMO.

We could host a play-off in a neutral venue, like the Principality Stadium, between the top Welsh team in the Welsh Premiership and the bottom Welsh team in the Pro12 to decide promotion/relegation. We could also ditch the Italians and increase the number of Welsh teams in the Pro12 to five.

But for all teams? So you'd be losing 4 each year and replacing them with another 4? Don't follow the 2nd division teams of Wales, Scotland, Ireland or Italy so not sure who the teams would be replacing them.

I just don't see how this would help to improve the league, you would run the risk of losing a team qualifying for the top Euro comp to the second tier surely? Not good for the league or Europe in my mind. Teams would be under much more immediate threat of relegation and would surely have to plan for that.

No 7&1/2 wrote:But for all teams? So you'd be losing 4 each year and replacing them with another 4? Don't follow the 2nd division teams of Wales, Scotland, Ireland or Italy so not sure who the teams would be replacing them.

I just don't see how this would help to improve the league, you would run the risk of losing a team qualifying for the top Euro comp to the second tier surely? Not good for the league or Europe in my mind. Teams would be under much more immediate threat of relegation and would surely have to plan for that.

Not for all teams. The bottom clubs of Wales, Scotland and Ireland.

Only the top 3/4 clubs of Wales can qualify for the Champions Cup (depending on how many clubs are in the league (3 if 4, 4 if 5)).

A play-off in a neutral venue like the Principality Stadium to decide who gets promoted and who gets relegated.

Ah so ditch the Italians altogther. Play offs would just mean the same teams remained then, fair enough. And back to weakening Europe more so that there's representation of all 'nations'.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so ditch the Italians altogther. Play offs would just mean the same teams remained then, fair enough. And back to weakening Europe more so that there's representation of all 'nations'.

No, if Pontypridd beat the Dragons in the play-off the same teams would not remain. Pontypridd would be promoted and the Dragons relegated.

Yeah, but not realistically going to happen.

international198 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so ditch the Italians altogther. Play offs would just mean the same teams remained then, fair enough. And back to weakening Europe more so that there's representation of all 'nations'.

No, if Pontypridd beat the Dragons in the play-off the same teams would not remain. Pontypridd would be promoted and the Dragons relegated.

How would that strengthen the Pro12 ? There isn't a ground to host matches and the crowds are mediocre at best...

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, but not realistically going to happen.

Japan beating South Africa in the Rugby World Cup was not realistically going to happen, but it did.

munkian wrote:

international198 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ah so ditch the Italians altogther. Play offs would just mean the same teams remained then, fair enough. And back to weakening Europe more so that there's representation of all 'nations'.

No, if Pontypridd beat the Dragons in the play-off the same teams would not remain. Pontypridd would be promoted and the Dragons relegated.

How would that strengthen the Pro12 ? There isn't a ground to host matches and the crowds are mediocre at best...

The revenue generated by being in the Pro12 could be used to improve the Pontypridd ground and the crowds would improve by being in the Pro12.

Also, the crowds in the Welsh Premiership would hopefully improve by making the league more competitive and meaningful.

Thats a hell of a counterpoint, you just won the internets

You do realize they would have to have the stadium BEFORE being promoted, right ?

international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

Kingshu wrote:international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

No, I'm not a Ponty fan.

It would make Irish rugby more competitive, IMO.

Remember, this is to be decided by a play-off not by automatic promotion/relegation.

The same way Six Nations promotion/relegation would be decided by a play-off.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:I was trying to think of ones I hear mianed about the most pre-match.  And then remembered a thread about how he was going to screw one side over, and a hefty amount of posters who usually get upset by ref bashing putting the boot in.  Thinking about it, im sure there is a saying about green houses and stones for a fair few.

Well, I think there is as well. I also think there's a difference in saying a ref is poor, or having a good moan about a ref making mistakes, than saying a ref, or a particular group of refs, are cheats. A big difference...

Yeah too true. Questioning how much extras a ref is going to earn for screwing your nation over prior to kick of is certainly not the same as saying that the ref has an in ability to spot offsides.

Just reading the Ulster supporters site, and they are already complaining that we might get either Lacey, or Clancy, when Leinster visit, because they are Munster men. Ejits

Automatically another team from the same country? What happens if Edinburgh finish bottom - they play off with who - Melrose?

TJ wrote:Automatically another team from the same country?  What happens if Edinburgh finish bottom - they play off with who - Melrose?

Whoever finishes top of the 'Scottish Rugby Premiership'.

international198 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

No, I'm not a Ponty fan.

It would make Irish rugby more competitive, IMO.

Remember, this is to be decided by a play-off not by automatic promotion/relegation.

The same way Six Nations promotion/relegation would be decided by a play-off.

So potentionally replacing Munster with a club based in Dublin with zero Irish internationals and max capacity crowd of 3500, (who would all be supporting Leinster anyway), would improve Irish rugby?

international198 wrote:

TJ wrote:Automatically another team from the same country?  What happens if Edinburgh finish bottom - they play off with who - Melrose?

Whoever finishes top of the 'Scottish Rugby Premiership'.

And Edinburgh smash 'em 99 - 0 whats the point?

Kingshu wrote:

international198 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

No, I'm not a Ponty fan.

It would make Irish rugby more competitive, IMO.

Remember, this is to be decided by a play-off not by automatic promotion/relegation.

The same way Six Nations promotion/relegation would be decided by a play-off.

So potentionally replacing Munster with a club based in Dublin with zero Irish internationals and max capacity crowd of 3500, (who would all be supporting Leinster anyway), would improve Irish rugby?

Yes, it would improve Irish rugby if that club was good enough to beat Munster in the play-offs, IMO.

TJ wrote:

international198 wrote:

TJ wrote:Automatically another team from the same country?  What happens if Edinburgh finish bottom - they play off with who - Melrose?

Whoever finishes top of the 'Scottish Rugby Premiership'.

And Edinburgh smash 'em 99 - 0  whats the point?

Then Edinburgh stay in the Pro12.

I blame the regional hybrid farce.

international198 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

No, I'm not a Ponty fan.

It would make Irish rugby more competitive, IMO.

Remember, this is to be decided by a play-off not by automatic promotion/relegation.

The same way Six Nations promotion/relegation would be decided by a play-off.

And if an Irish club managed to beat Munster (wouldn't happen), what would that do to Munster, if they were dropped from PRO12? It would destroy them. I can't see the IRFU being happy to allow any Province (with their internationals, some contracted to them) to miss out on PRO12, or European, rugby. Imagine POM or Stander playing for Ireland when their team isn't competing in PRO12 at least? It will never happen.

All the players then leave and join the new club? It might work for Wales but not for Scotland or Ireland

TJ wrote:All the players then leave and join the new club?  It might work for Wales but not for Scotland or Ireland

It wouldn't work for Wales...

international198 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:

international198 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

No, I'm not a Ponty fan.

It would make Irish rugby more competitive, IMO.

Remember, this is to be decided by a play-off not by automatic promotion/relegation.

The same way Six Nations promotion/relegation would be decided by a play-off.

So potentionally replacing Munster with a club based in Dublin with zero Irish internationals and max capacity crowd of 3500, (who would all be supporting Leinster anyway), would improve Irish rugby?

Yes, it would improve Irish rugby if that club was good enough to beat Munster in the play-offs, IMO.

Just like TJ points out that its a pointless play off,

A club will never have the same support as a province,

A Province is bigger than a club, it has clubs feed into it, therefore you cannot replace a province with a club

A region is just the same it should have Clubs feeding into it.

You wouldn't suggest that If Ireland finished bottom of the 6 Nations that the Province that finishes highest in the Pro 12 play-off to replace it, would you?

Thats because Ireland is the stop of the pyramid, the four provinces feed into it, and the clubs into the Provinces.

international198 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:So, would your plan be for each nation to lose the bottom club? How (if the Welsh did manage to get places 1-4) would losing the 4th best team in the league help strengthen either the Pro 12 or the Welsh representation?

Yes, each nation to lose its bottom club.

By making the competition more competitive and more meaningful, IMO.

So this season we would look at replacing Muster or Ulster with Clontarf or St. Mary's college? That should lead to some interesting matches next season, Zebre will be looking forward to picking up a few extra wins.

Munchkin wrote:And if an Irish club managed to beat Munster (wouldn't happen), what would that do to Munster, if they were dropped from PRO12? It would destroy them. I can't see the IRFU being happy to allow any Province (with their internationals, some contracted to them) to miss out on PRO12, or European, rugby. Imagine POM or Stander playing for Ireland when their team isn't competing in PRO12 at least? It will never happen.

Ok, you've persuaded me differently. Promotion/relegation isn't a good idea for the Pro12 but I think it's a good idea for the Six Nations.

international198 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yeah, but not realistically going to happen.

Japan beating South Africa in the Rugby World Cup was not realistically going to happen, but it did.

Good example. So the competition would have been better had Japan gone through after that 1 off game? japan are better than SA and would have added more?

That Irish club (that would be looking to take Munster's slot in Pro12) would already be supported by a fair bunch of people that already support Munster.  

People forget too readily that Provincialism in Ireland is real.... it isn't created.  

In Wales it seems all teams are rivals because many Welsh club supporters don't feel that the Regions are genuine teams at all, and certainly many of them don't feel that 'their' Region represents them or their interests.  So it's more natural that the Regions in Wales are just seen as just another four clubs, or the continuation of clubs that have changed their names with Regionalism. In Ireland it's different.  

Besides that; Pro12 sides must have a budget to at least try to compete with AP teams and Top14 teams or else it's just all about semi-professionalism again and being a player-feeder League for the big lads in England or France.
So where does all the extra money come from to have even more teams competing on a level footing in a League that is already complaining about the lack of money to compete on a level playing field with AP and Top14?

I am not totally agaainst wooden spoon V best of the minnows playoff. If Scotland or Italy can't beat Romania or Georgia then you could make a case they don't deserve to be there

international198 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

No, I'm not a Ponty fan.

It would make Irish rugby more competitive, IMO.

Remember, this is to be decided by a play-off not by automatic promotion/relegation.

The same way Six Nations promotion/relegation would be decided by a play-off.

You know much about Irish rugby do you?

Thought I'd heard some stupid ideas before but maybe trumps the lot, completely illogical and completely lacking in any thought and understanding of the actual impact and seems just to be along the lines of people want change heres one way to change things

TJ wrote:I am not totally agaainst  wooden spoon V best of the minnows playoff.  If Scotland or Italy can't beat Romania or Georgia then you could make a case they don't deserve to be there

I'm not its not inconceivable that Ireland, Scotland Wales finished bottom that Georgia could beat them in a play off
Imagine what that would do to their finances, they Provinces, Districts or regions, would go bust.
Even if it was a possibility the Unions would have to plan ahead incase of relegation which would mean less money as this is put aside to save incase of relegation.
Hugh effect of the Pro 12.
No Union would ever vote for it.
Also if Georgia were promoted how would this help Romania or Spain, they may only get a slice of the pie one year every decade.

However I do think the 3rd autumn international most teams play should be removed, and in the 6 Nations a Barbarians team entered, the Barbarians team is controlled by the best tier 2 Nations, and the money it generates split between them. OK so it would be spilt multi ways but its guaranteed income every year.
Best players from Georgia, Romania, even fiji somia etc and all these tier 2 Unions get a share of the 7 nations revenue, move games around Europe to make a bigger Market.
Babaa's v England in Germany, then Babaa's V Wales in Spain/Russia/Georgia/Belgium as each would be a one off event it could be very marketable

marty2086 wrote:

international198 wrote:

Kingshu wrote:international198, would I be correct in guessing your a Ponty fan and want to see them in the Pro 12?

I can't see how removing Munster and replacing them with Clontarf would help Irish rugby?
Replacing Ospreys with Bridgend would be the same.

The regions should be seen as above clubs, and therefore make it like comparing Apples and Oranges however with the way it was set up 13 years later disenfranasement still rears its ugly head, and fans of the clubs left behind do not see a region as representing their area.

Since it should be Apples and Oranges, I can't see relegation ever coming up, you can't replace an Apple with an orange, likewise you can't replace a Province with a club, and shouldn't be able to replace a region with a Club.

No, I'm not a Ponty fan.

It would make Irish rugby more competitive, IMO.

Remember, this is to be decided by a play-off not by automatic promotion/relegation.

The same way Six Nations promotion/relegation would be decided by a play-off.

You know much about Irish rugby do you?

Thought I'd heard some stupid ideas before but maybe trumps the lot, completely illogical and completely lacking in any thought and understanding of the actual impact and seems just to be along the lines of people want change heres one way to change things

Given his Wales selection thread it's abundantly clear he doesn't know much about Welsh rugby, let alone Irish Rugby. I'm beginning to question his Welsh credentials if I'm honest.