The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
So talking about private investment to keep players in Ireland, you bring up Jo'burger and it was unrelated? Makes sense, that's why you are so vague then, to keep the waters muddied so you can say you weren't wrong

It was unrelated to his present contract as, and another poster picked up on this, this kind of thing has been happening since year dot. That's why I answered the question from you on how long this has been going on for.

Remember?

You should question your little mind as to why another poster comprehended the simple point, and expanded upon it, but you couldn't.

More lies but hey you keep going Phillip

PhilBB wrote:

Allty wrote:You have done wages to death

How do we move forward?

We cannot. That's the point. The PrO'12 is fundamentally flawed.

It cannot generate a sufficient TV contract, it has little appeal in Wales, the Italians are constantly at the bottom and the Union owned teams are playthings of the international game.

It is not a sustainable league.

The Welsh Regions are the playthings...of their Union and the International game. Every idea you come up with, the reverse of it is the truth.
The Regions hop, skip and keep their mouths obediently closed when their players phone-in a season because Lord Gatland is preparing an assault on the All Blacks behind the scenes. Regional rugby (marketed as 'Private' and self-sufficient) are lap-dogs to the true boss - Gatland and WRU. Regions are mere sorting centres for International selection.

Lewis gone - old issues still looming large.

In Ireland, the Union respects its Provinces as serious, professional stand-alone teams with serious objectives and goals set before them each and every year. And the truth of that is evidenced in their continuing record both in the League and in Europe.

You can rattle off your alternate-world version of truth as long as you want, but the only truth that matters is the evidence that Provinces work and Regions - so far - don't.

The truth hurts you so much, you despise that truth so much that you'd do anything to end the pain. You'd even consign your Regions to a 2nd Division of a B&I League if you thought the evil IRFU would be downed with the same stone.

You're obsessed with rage and hate, Phil. All your mental roads lead to one goal - the death of Irish Provincial rugby. You try to conceal it and distract from it and bluff your way through page after page of supposed 'reasoned' debate...but it's such an open wound. You can't disguise it.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
You unbridled arrogance means you don't admit when you are wrong, not that you've never been caught out. Remind me again of the article you say is out there that can't be found but I have read?

Do you really want me to produce an article that notes Heaslip's involvement with Jo'Burger? After all, you've acknowledged yourself that the involvement exists.

Heaslip is not involved in Jo'Burger. He has an interest in Bear.

marty2086 wrote:
More lies but hey you keep going Phillip

Where's the lie, Martyn?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Munster owe nothing to anyone else.

It's about €10m and climbing.

Don't forget all those free players Munster have had for years. Well paid free players.

Ya, they got paid for doing nothing. They didn't play 10 or 12 games a year of international rugby which is the main income source for the IRFU.

Sin é wrote:
Heaslip is not involved in Jo'Burger. He has an interest in Bear.

That's contradictory.

Sin é wrote:

Ya, they got paid for doing nothing. They didn't play 10 or 12 games a year of international rugby which is the main income source for the IRFU.

They played for free for Munster. That's the point you're desperately trying to avoid.

So back to the question, how to move the Pro12 forward?

SecretFly wrote:
The Welsh Regions are the playthings...of their Union and the International game.  Every idea you come up with, the reverse of it is the truth.
The Regions hop, skip and keep their mouths obediently closed when their players phone-in a season because Lord Gatland is preparing an assault on the All Blacks behind the scenes.  Regional rugby (marketed as 'Private' and self-sufficient) are lap-dogs to the true boss - Gatland and WRU.  Regions are mere sorting centres for International selection.  

Lewis gone - old issues still looming large.

In Ireland, the Union respects its Provinces as serious, professional stand-alone teams with serious objectives and goals set before them each and every year.  And the truth of that is evidenced in their continuing record both in the League and in Europe.  

You can rattle off your alternate-world version of truth as long as you want, but the only truth that matters is the evidence that Provinces work and Regions - so far - don't.

The truth hurts you so much, you despise that truth so much that you'd do anything to end the pain.  You'd even consign your Regions to a 2nd Division of a B&I League if you thought the evil IRFU would be downed with the same stone.  

You're obsessed with rage and hate, Phil.  All your mental roads lead to one goal - the death of Irish Provincial rugby.  You try to conceal it and distract from it and bluff your way through page after page of supposed 'reasoned' debate...but it's such an open wound.  You can't disguise it.

Seriously, mate, seek help.

marty2086 wrote:So back to the question, how to move the Pro12 forward?

It can't be. It's broken.

Even old Martin has worked that out. He wants 'conferences', which is testimony to Phillips having told him that the PrO'12 is of little interest in Wales.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:So back to the question, how to move the Pro12 forward?

It can't be. It's broken.

Even old Martin has worked that out. He wants 'conferences', which is testimony to Phillips having told him that the PrO'12 is of little interest in Wales.

'The Guinness PRO12 season could be restructured to ensure matches are not played during international windows'

Funny how your analyse doesn't match the reality, if you are going to suggest others seek help maybe you should be head of the queue so if you have nothing productive to offer maybe you should go back to the sandpit

It's of little interest in Wales?

Ain't that the line reserved for Provinces over the years?

You have to steal that 'attitude' too?

Here we are, Irish Provinces only existing to serve International, no 'STARS' on show for most of the year.... cotton-wool performances.... and still, even with eyes closed and murmuring in their sleep, they get to the top or thereabouts?
Wasn't that the cry only a few months ago - the Irish making a joke out of the bread'n'butter League?

Now, it's the Welsh that suddenly don't care?  Mmmm, stealing our 'sexy' thunder

SecretFly wrote:It's of little interest in Wales?

Ain't that the line reserved for Provinces over the years?

You have to steal that 'attitude' too?

Here we are, Irish Provinces only existing to serve International, no 'STARS' on show for most of the year.... cotton-wool performances.... and still, even with eyes closed and murmuring in their sleep, they get to the top or thereabouts?
Wasn't that the cry only a few months ago - the Irish making a joke out of the bread'n'butter League?

Now, it's the Welsh that suddenly don't care?  Mmmm, stealing our 'sexy' thunder

That's despite him arguing in the past it was the Welsh keeping it afloat because BBC Wales pays the most in tv money

But he is always right even though he contradicts himself regularly

marty2086 wrote:

'The Guinness PRO12 season could be restructured to ensure matches are not played during international windows'

Funny how your analyse doesn't match the reality, if you are going to suggest others seek help maybe you should be head of the queue so if you have nothing productive to offer maybe you should go back to the sandpit

It can't remain at 12 and be played outside of the international window without conferences, Martyn. Yet again, you're quick to insult based on your own inability to comprehend a simple message.

marty2086 wrote:

That's despite him arguing in the past it was the Welsh keeping it afloat because BBC Wales pays the most in tv money

But he is always right even though he contradicts himself regularly

I've never made that claim in the Sky era of broadcasting, Martyn, so that's something else you've got wholly wrong.

What I noted was the Welsh teams generate the most TV income. I was right to.

The split of the Sky money is 40/40/20 so the Welsh teams generate 100% of the BBC Wales money and 40% of the Sky money. That means they bring in the most TV money.

Hence no contradiction from me, but two incorrect claims from you.

Well done.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

'The Guinness PRO12 season could be restructured to ensure matches are not played during international windows'

Funny how your analyse doesn't match the reality, if you are going to suggest others seek help maybe you should be head of the queue so if you have nothing productive to offer maybe you should go back to the sandpit

It can't remain at 12 and be played outside of the international window without conferences, Martyn. Yet again, you're quick to insult based on your own inability to comprehend a simple message.

Well you stated it can't move forward yet now you are saying it can?

And it can move forward a number of ways, conferences is an option being discussed

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That's despite him arguing in the past it was the Welsh keeping it afloat because BBC Wales pays the most in tv money

But he is always right even though he contradicts himself regularly

I've never made that claim in the Sky era of broadcasting, Martyn, so that's something else you've got wholly wrong.

What I noted was the Welsh teams generate the most TV income. I was right to.

The split of the Sky money is 40/40/20 so the Welsh teams generate 100% of the BBC Wales money and 40% of the Sky money. That means they bring in the most TV money.

Hence no contradiction from me, but two incorrect claims from you.

Well done.

Ermmm the Sky split down to the number of teams, its an equitable split

And this season you argued the Welsh tv was bringing in most money, is that because theres no interest in Wales or because there is a considerable interest?

We both know why, so stop trying to argue theres no interest

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

'The Guinness PRO12 season could be restructured to ensure matches are not played during international windows'

Funny how your analyse doesn't match the reality, if you are going to suggest others seek help maybe you should be head of the queue so if you have nothing productive to offer maybe you should go back to the sandpit

It can't remain at 12 and be played outside of the international window without conferences, Martyn. Yet again, you're quick to insult based on your own inability to comprehend a simple message.

Well you stated it can't move forward yet now you are saying it can?

And it can move forward a number of ways, conferences is an option being discussed

No, I'm not saying it can. Conferences will just delay the inevitable.

marty2086 wrote:

Ermmm the Sky split down to the number of teams, its an equitable split

And this season you argued the Welsh tv was bringing in most money, is that because theres no interest in Wales or because there is a considerable interest?

We both know why, so stop trying to argue theres no interest

I didn't argue Welsh TV was bringing in the most money. Sky pay the most.

BBC Wales pay the money because it is relatively cheap TV to hit their target for 'Welsh interest TV'.

There is little interest in the PrO'12 in Wales. You really should follow @simonrug on Twitter if you're deluded enough to think otherwise.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That's despite him arguing in the past it was the Welsh keeping it afloat because BBC Wales pays the most in tv money

But he is always right even though he contradicts himself regularly

I've never made that claim in the Sky era of broadcasting, Martyn, so that's something else you've got wholly wrong.

What I noted was the Welsh teams generate the most TV income. I was right to.

The split of the Sky money is 40/40/20 so the Welsh teams generate 100% of the BBC Wales money and 40% of the Sky money. That means they bring in the most TV money.

Hence no contradiction from me, but two incorrect claims from you.

Well done.

Back to accountancy talk to evade the issues....Gatland, Regions and their "Yes Sir" attitude to a guy who supposedly doesn't own them.

The Product brings in the money.  Sky wouldn't be there unless Irish Provinces were.  You'll say they would be, I'll disagree.
Welsh TV would still be there - and paying a lot less for the privilege - if Irish Provinces weren't. They pay what they're paying because Irish and Scottish sides are involved.

SecretFly wrote:They pay what they're paying because Irish and Scottish sides are involved.

In all fairness, that's the first time you raised more of a smile from me than the feeling of pity.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:They pay what they're paying because Irish and Scottish sides are involved.

In all fairness, that's the first time you raised more of a smile from me than the feeling of pity.

Phil..I don't give a damn what your feelings are for me. Pity me, hate me, laugh at me, sneer me if it pleases you. You're a few words on a page to me.

But you're also a few words that trip themselves up in pseudo-financial pitter patter in an continuous attempt to steer the discussion - or any discussion - away from the sensitive issues of failing, weak-minded Regions being bullied by an WRU that uses them simply to produce Internationals for Gatland.

The solution to Pro12 is finding a mechanism for giving these 'self-sufficient' Regions the balls to start telling Gatland and WRU where to go when he continues to coach Regional players through a season from the sidelines.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:They pay what they're paying because Irish and Scottish sides are involved.

In all fairness, that's the first time you raised more of a smile from me than the feeling of pity.

Phil..I don't give a damn what your feelings are for me.  Pity me, hate me, laugh at me, sneer me if it pleases you.  You're a few words on a page to me.

But you're also a few words that trip themselves up in pseudo-financial pitter patter in an continuous attempt to steer the discussion - or any discussion - away from the sensitive issues of failing, weak-minded Regions being bullied by an WRU that uses them simply to produce Internationals for Gatland.

The solution to Pro12 is finding a mechanism for giving these 'self-sufficient' Regions the balls to start telling Gatland and WRU where to go when he continues to coach Regional players through a season from the sidelines.

Rightio.

So basically your claim is that the PrO12 is crap because Gatland can only do half of what Schmidt does.

Got it.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:They pay what they're paying because Irish and Scottish sides are involved.

In all fairness, that's the first time you raised more of a smile from me than the feeling of pity.

Phil..I don't give a damn what your feelings are for me.  Pity me, hate me, laugh at me, sneer me if it pleases you.  You're a few words on a page to me.

But you're also a few words that trip themselves up in pseudo-financial pitter patter in an continuous attempt to steer the discussion - or any discussion - away from the sensitive issues of failing, weak-minded Regions being bullied by an WRU that uses them simply to produce Internationals for Gatland.

The solution to Pro12 is finding a mechanism for giving these 'self-sufficient' Regions the balls to start telling Gatland and WRU where to go when he continues to coach Regional players through a season from the sidelines.

Oh, and please don't try to give me the impression that you actually believe anything you type.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

That's despite him arguing in the past it was the Welsh keeping it afloat because BBC Wales pays the most in tv money

But he is always right even though he contradicts himself regularly

I've never made that claim in the Sky era of broadcasting, Martyn, so that's something else you've got wholly wrong.

What I noted was the Welsh teams generate the most TV income. I was right to.

The split of the Sky money is 40/40/20 so the Welsh teams generate 100% of the BBC Wales money and 40% of the Sky money. That means they bring in the most TV money.

Hence no contradiction from me, but two incorrect claims from you.

Well done.

And quite rightly so that Welsh Regions should pull their weight having done everything in their power to destroy the league. According to the Welsh Chairman of the PRO12, the reason why the tv and sponsorship is poor is down to the Welsh rugby civil war.

Sin é wrote:
And quite rightly so that Welsh Regions should pull their weight having done everything in their power to destroy the league. According to the Welsh Chairman of the PRO12, the reason why the tv and sponsorship is poor is down to the Welsh rugby civil war.

Why are you still spouting this incoherent nonsense about PRW trying to destroy the league?

The Civil War was caused by the WRU. You've been educated on this many times before. When will it sink in?

PhilBB wrote:

Oh, and please don't try to give me the impression that you actually believe anything you type.

Keep it up...you have a vested interest now in trying to ridicule the guy that bypasses your quasi-boardroom guff and gets to the meat.

The meat is where the truth is. You've danced around the facts and figures and TV rights and investment projections, and the costs of stadiums and bank loans that need to be paid back (in a few guises) now for a good few years - over and back like an eternal wood saw trying to cut through steel.

It's all guff. Pure unadulterated crap. Your issue is Wales, WRU and Regions allowing their players to hold off on Regional intensity to save themselves seasonally for Gatland's punishing agendas and conditioning demands.
If the accusation is good enough to have been thrown at us for the last five or six years, then it's a good enough accusation to throw back your way.

That's where your issues are, Phil. Go write a few threads dealing with those issues.

SecretFly wrote:

Keep it up...you have a vested interest now in trying to ridicule the guy that bypasses your quasi-boardroom guff and gets to the meat.

The meat is where the truth is.  You've danced around the facts and figures and TV rights and investment projections, and the costs of stadiums and bank loans that need to be paid back (in a few guises) now for a good few years - over and back like an eternal wood saw trying to cut through steel.  

It's all guff.  Pure unadulterated crap.  Your issue is Wales, WRU and Regions allowing their players to hold off on Regional intensity to save themselves seasonally for Gatland's punishing agendas and conditioning demands.
If the accusation is good enough to have been thrown at us for the last five or six years, then it's a good enough accusation to throw back your way.

That's where your issues are, Phil.  Go write a few threads dealing with those issues.

Mate, never think that I can ridicule you. There's no room left for that.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
And quite rightly so that Welsh Regions should pull their weight having done everything in their power to destroy the league. According to the Welsh Chairman of the PRO12, the reason why the tv and sponsorship is poor is down to the Welsh rugby civil war.

Why are you still spouting this incoherent nonsense about PRW trying to destroy the league?

The Civil War was caused by the WRU. You've been educated on this many times before. When will it sink in?

I don't give a Poopie who started it. The end result is that Welsh Rugby (Regions and WRU) is responsible for the poor sponsorship & TV money of the PRO12 (according to Chairman of PRO12 & MD of Pro12).

Sin é wrote:
I don't give a Poopie who started it. The end result is that Welsh Rugby (Regions and WRU) is responsible for the poor sponsorship & TV money of the PRO12 (according to Chairman of PRO12 & MD of Pro12).

You don't give a poopie who 'started it' but you've gone from blaming PRW to now blaming PRW and the WRU. Rightio. Progress is being made.

Whilst you're using that blame, just think how much better the league might be if the Scots and Irish domestic TV contracts brought in another £6m between them. Why? because that's how far they are behind the Welsh at this stage.

Hell, that would even help pay off a significant chunk of Munster's debt each year.

PhilBB wrote:

Mate, never think that I can ridicule you. There's no room left for that.

So plenty of room for a discussion on the PRL, WRU, Old bosses that have flown away, new bosses that were hailed as Saviours but who still bow to the one true King, Gats?

Plenty of room to hear your detailed opinions on the Welsh, and why they blame IRFU for Gatland's continued dictatorship?

PhilBB wrote:

Whilst you're using that blame, just think how much better the league might be if the Scots and Irish domestic TV contracts brought in another £6m between them. Why? because that's how far they are behind the Welsh at this stage.

The Irish bit is the Sky bit... No Irish, no Sky

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Mate, never think that I can ridicule you. There's no room left for that.

So plenty of room for a discussion on the PRL, WRU, Old bosses that have flown away, new bosses that were hailed as Saviours but who still bow to the one true King, Gats?

Plenty of room to hear your detailed opinions on the Welsh, and why they blame IRFU for Gatland's continued dictatorship?

^ Hey kids, here's a really bad lesson in how to try to create a straw man message board argument by asking for confirmation on the false premise you just dreamed up ^

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Whilst you're using that blame, just think how much better the league might be if the Scots and Irish domestic TV contracts brought in another £6m between them. Why? because that's how far they are behind the Welsh at this stage.

The Irish bit is the Sky bit...  No Irish, no Sky

Honestly mate, there's no need for you to use smilies. None of your output is obviously genuine or accurate.

No Irish, no Sky.

That better?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I don't give a Poopie who started it. The end result is that Welsh Rugby (Regions and WRU) is responsible for the poor sponsorship & TV money of the PRO12 (according to Chairman of PRO12 & MD of Pro12).

You don't give a poopie who 'started it' but you've gone from blaming PRW to now blaming PRW and the WRU. Rightio. Progress is being made.

Whilst you're using that blame, just think how much better the league might be if the Scots and Irish domestic TV contracts brought in another £6m between them. Why? because that's how far they are behind the Welsh at this stage.

Hell, that would even help pay off a significant chunk of Munster's debt each year.

The PRO12 enjoys a tax free existence being based in Ireland. The PRO12 wouldn't have a sponsor except for the Irish (Magners, Rabo & Guinness).

The PRO12 Chairman has said that the reason the Media contract is poor is down to the uncertainty brought about by the Welsh Regions in their civil war with the WRU. As far as I can recall, the Welsh Regions signed a deal with the WRU and then decided to pull out half way through.

Munster will sort their cashflow problems immediately with savings on having only 1 training centre. And then they have their new 9.5m training centre opening in August (which they intend using for other training).

Munster own a lot of assets that they can use to generate money.

Sin é wrote:
The PRO12 enjoys a tax free existence being based in Ireland. The PRO12 wouldn't have a sponsor except for the Irish (Magners, Rabo & Guinness).

The PRO12 Chairman has said that the reason the Media contract is poor is down to the uncertainty brought about by the Welsh Regions in their civil war with the WRU. As far as I can recall, the Welsh Regions signed a deal with the WRU and then decided to pull out half way through.

Munster will sort their cashflow problems immediately with savings on having only 1 training centre. And then they have their new 9.5m training centre opening in August (which they intend using for other training).

Munster own a lot of assets that they can use to generate money.

Tax is only paid on profits. The PrO'12 shouldn't be a profit making organisation.

I'm fairly sure that Guinness is a London company called Diageo.

Your recollection of the 'civil war' is as bad as your knowledge on who owns Zebre. In other words, you got that wrong.

Good to know that Munster rugby will be able to make that upcoming €4.2m payment (with thanks to Martyn). I'll look out for it.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Mate, never think that I can ridicule you. There's no room left for that.

So plenty of room for a discussion on the PRL, WRU, Old bosses that have flown away, new bosses that were hailed as Saviours but who still bow to the one true King, Gats?

Plenty of room to hear your detailed opinions on the Welsh, and why they blame IRFU for Gatland's continued dictatorship?

^ Hey kids, here's a really bad lesson in how to try to create a straw man message board argument by asking for confirmation on the false premise you just dreamed up ^

PRL,
Regional issues,
WRU,
Gatland...
Welsh International factored in for Pro12 Final weekend.

There are your issues. I'd appreciate you addressing them in minute detail for a few years now...to add balance to your well published detailed opinions on all things Irish.

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Mate, never think that I can ridicule you. There's no room left for that.

So plenty of room for a discussion on the PRL, WRU, Old bosses that have flown away, new bosses that were hailed as Saviours but who still bow to the one true King, Gats?

Plenty of room to hear your detailed opinions on the Welsh, and why they blame IRFU for Gatland's continued dictatorship?

^ Hey kids, here's a really bad lesson in how to try to create a straw man message board argument by asking for confirmation on the false premise you just dreamed up ^

PRL,
Regional issues,
WRU,
Gatland...
Welsh International factored in for Pro12 Final weekend.  

There are your issues.  I'd appreciate you addressing them in minute detail for a few years now...to add balance to your well published detailed opinions on all things Irish.

Add minimal media coverage to that list.

Would it do better without the welsh?
Recreate the Borders team in scotland.Check about the potential to have a tier 2 side brought in. Reduce to a Pro10 set up or attract a couple of tier 2 sides and keep it as a pro12.
The Champions cup is based on teams from 3 leagues, so the entitlement to places would stay with the league of course.

SecretFly wrote:

PRL,
Regional issues,
WRU,
Gatland...
Welsh International factored in for Pro12 Final weekend.  

There are your issues.  I'd appreciate you addressing them in minute detail for a few years now...to add balance to your well published detailed opinions on all things Irish.

rugbyphilbb.wordpress.com

@rugbyphilbb

Knock yourself bandy

profitius wrote:
Add minimal media coverage to that list.

That follows demand.

I am unsure as to why so many can't comprehend that the PrO'12 is of little interest in Wales.

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Would it do better without the welsh?
Recreate the Borders team in scotland.Check about the potential to have a tier 2 side brought in. Reduce to a Pro10 set up or attract a couple of tier 2 sides and keep it as a pro12.
The Champions cup is based on teams from 3 leagues, so the entitlement to places would stay with the league of course.

Please, please do.

PhilBB wrote:

thebandwagonsociety wrote:Would it do better without the welsh?
Recreate the Borders team in scotland.Check about the potential to have a tier 2 side brought in. Reduce to a Pro10 set up or attract a couple of tier 2 sides and keep it as a pro12.
The Champions cup is based on teams from 3 leagues, so the entitlement to places would stay with the league of course.

Please, please do.

It's been offered quite a number of times in these discussions...

It's been put out there... the Welsh should go negotiate with the English (once again) to form their own unique Anglo-Welsh League, IF they have so little love for or interest in Pro12.

But nah....  that's always a no goer.  We're wanted (well 'wanted' is too strong a word); we're needed, it seems, to sign on the dotted line for something called a B&I League.  The Anglo-Welsh League can't happen unless the Irish make it viable?  

It seems our signature, unwanted and undesired as that signature is in some circles, is still required to sign our own death warrant so that the Regions can prosper (make more money) in Division 2 of the new 'British' dominated competition.

We have to fall on our sword to help our buddies who earlier tried to knife us in the back.

You can feel the Love in the air.

SecretFly wrote:

It's been offered quite a number of times in these discussions...

It's been put out there... the Welsh should go negotiate with the English (once again) to form their own unique Anglo-Welsh League, IF they have so little love for or interest in Pro12.

But nah....  that's always a no goer.  We're wanted (well 'wanted' is too strong a word); we're needed, it seems, to sign on the dotted line for something called a B&I League.  The Anglo-Welsh League can't happen unless the Irish make it viable?  

It seems our signature, unwanted and undesired as that signature is in some circles, is still required to sign our own death warrant so that the Regions can prosper (make more money) in Division 2 of the new 'British' dominated competition.

We have to fall on our sword to help our buddies who earlier tried to knife us in the back.

You can feel the Love in the air.

I think you're only fooling yourself if you think that the English and Welsh pro teams wouldn't agree to a ring fenced league.

Deluding, in fact.

[quote="PhilBB"]

Sin é wrote:
The PRO12 enjoys a tax free existence being based in Ireland. The PRO12 wouldn't have a sponsor except for the Irish (Magners, Rabo & Guinness).

The PRO12 Chairman has said that the reason the Media contract is poor is down to the uncertainty brought about by the Welsh Regions in their civil war with the WRU. As far as I can recall, the Welsh Regions signed a deal with the WRU and then decided to pull out half way through.

Munster will sort their cashflow problems immediately with savings on having only 1 training centre. And then they have their new 9.5m training centre opening in August (which they intend using for other training).

Munster own a lot of assets that they can use to generate money.

Tax is only paid on profits. The PrO'12 shouldn't be a profit making organisation.

And PRO12 makes profit. For example, the Welsh Rugby Union paid 0.7m in tax for 2015 and a whopping 3m in tax in 2013.
Only in Switzerland and Ireland can you avail of tax exemption for sport.

I'm fairly sure that Guinness is a London company called Diageo.

and Rabbo are Dutch? My point is that their big interest is the Irish market. Whats yours?

Your recollection of the 'civil war' is as bad as your knowledge on who owns Zebre. In other words, you got that wrong.

Did the Regions not pull out of their agreement with the WRU half way through it? Yes or no will suffice.

Good to know that Munster rugby will be able to make that upcoming €4.2m payment (with thanks to Martyn). I'll look out for it.

I'd say Munster are more likely to sort out their finances with the sale of their 10 years tickets next season. The sale of those tickets brought in about 9m 10 years ago.

Sin é wrote:
And PRO12 makes profit.

It shouldn't.

Sin é wrote:My point is that their big interest is the Irish market. Whats yours?

That Guinness is sold in Scotland and Wales and Italy, by a London company, so you can't claim it is sponsoring the league solely because of Irish team involvement.

Sin é wrote:
Did the Regions not pull out of their agreement with the WRU half way through it? Yes or no will suffice.

No.

They declined the opportunity of rolling it on.

Sin é wrote:
I'd say Munster are more likely to sort out their finances with the sale of their 10 years tickets next season. The sale of those tickets brought in about 9m 10 years ago.

Which, of course, reduces income for the next 10 years.