The Pro12, how do we move forward ?

First topic message reminder :

I am posting this so that we can talk about rugby, yes I will use links from the media to create a discussion, and whether you agree with them or not, it is not me saying them. 

So, the Pro12, how could it move forward, for me there are one or two bones of contention for me, and that is the refereeing situation we find ourselves in, and the two Italian sides, firstly I will speak about the Italian sides, they have been here for a few years now and they are getting worse, now whether that is because of the fall out with the CC or not, the simple fact is they are not adding much to the league other than a banker five points when they travel and the odd banana skin when teams travel to play them. I would not like to see the Italians cut adrift, but at the same time they seriously need to up their game, at the moment they look as if they do not want to be here and are just waiting for the season to end, recent results have reflected this. I also think, that at the moment a place in the top tier of Europe is a waste for them, they will never win that competition with the state they are in at the moment and I think it would be far more beneficial for them to play in the second tier where they would have a better chance of picking up results and giving them more confidence. Jonathan Davies was pretty scathing about them on Scrum V on Sunday night:-

http://www.bbc.com/sport/rugby-union/36068740

Now I do not agree with him when it comes to ditching the Italians, but he does make a good point. Something needs to be seriously looked at when we are considering the two Italian teams, what would you suggest ?

Secondly I will talk about our refereeing situation, I am very uncomfortable with the status quo we find ourselves in at the moment when it comes to the referees, I am not comfortable that we are in a situation where the unions employ the referees AND the players. This leads to calls of potential bias, and the union controlled teams bringing their own refs with them, I think the referees should be employed by a central organisation, not the unions, and I think that the central organisation should be the league itself, the money the unions pay the refs should be payed to the league and then the league should have direct control over the referees. The league should then have a remit of how the refs should perform, and all the refs should be singing from the same hymn sheet, not that of their respective unions. Only when something like this happens will we see an improvement.

I would also like to talk about an article I read on WOL that Jeremy Guscott scratched upon, and states that we should be improving our brand of rugby to be able to compete with the French and English, also he has pointed out that because our CC players are restricted to the amount of games they can play, they hamper the teams involved, this I agree with, and I would rather we rested our players for Europe and played them more in the league. Guscott says that because there is no relegation from the Pro12 then there should be no excuses for us not playing a better brand of rugby. Anyway here's the link if anyone is interested:-

http://www.walesonline.co.uk/sport/rugby/rugby-news/england-legend-tells-welsh-regions-11202285

Do you agree with Jeremy Guscott ?

marty2086 wrote:
The goodness of their heart would be the answer, sure why wouldn't they want to bring in organisations that are constantly bickering and complaining and driving down income?

Can you point to any 'bickering and complaining' between PRL and PRW?

Thanks in advance.

The organisations alluded to..in good pure English...are the WRU and PRW.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
The goodness of their heart would be the answer, sure why wouldn't they want to bring in organisations that are constantly bickering and complaining and driving down income?

Can you point to any 'bickering and complaining' between PRL and PRW?

Thanks in advance.

Did I say that's who I was talking about?

SecretFly wrote:The organisations alluded to..in good pure English...are the WRU and PRW.

As he well knows but just being his usual cocky self

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
The goodness of their heart would be the answer, sure why wouldn't they want to bring in organisations that are constantly bickering and complaining and driving down income?

Can you point to any 'bickering and complaining' between PRL and PRW?

Thanks in advance.

Did I say that's who I was talking about?

Well, they are the only two organisations that you could be 'talking about' so, by definition, you'd have mentioned one of them.

I can see that you can't answer that question, either.

PhilBB wrote:

Message boards have zero influence, Eric.

And, for the record, I've no issue with a B&I League. Just as long as no Union owned teams enter.

Oh? Changing your clothes again to suit the weather. No, let's stick with the Anglo/Welsh League. Have the courage of your convictions. Fight for what you believe in....Chunk. After all, come the ending of the current Pro12 thing, you're hoping the WRU fight for what they believe in... with the current 'Region friendly' people in control there.

SecretFly wrote:The organisations alluded to..in good pure English...are the WRU and PRW.

The WRU has changed, in case you hadn't noticed.

And this would be a club run competition so the WRU wouldn't be involved.

Well done.

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The organisations alluded to..in good pure English...are the WRU and PRW.

As he well knows but just being his usual cocky self

Uh oh. You're now being as ignorant as the chap who writes flowery nonsense to try to appear to be clever and funny, but failing at both.

SecretFly wrote:
Oh?  Changing your clothes again to suit the weather.  No, let's stick with the Anglo/Welsh League.  Have the courage of your convictions.  Fight for what you believe in....Chunk.  After all, come the ending of the current Pro12 thing, you're hoping the WRU fight for what they believe in... with the current 'Region friendly' people in control there.

No change, Champ. I've often written that Leinster would be one of the best teams in Europe if they weren't IRFU owned and controlled.

Chunk is @smallclone, as I've told you once already.

You're right, though, I do hope that Phillips is fighting for his members.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No Einstein I assume the structure of the loan repayments are based around the 10 year ticket sales

I thought there was just a statement from you about the bye laws but again none of that is relevant to this thread

Seems you just like to air your grievances about the evils of Irish rugby, is a therapist not something you would consider? Or does the complexes you seem to have prevent you accepting the idea of seeing one?

You're assuming a lot about this 10 year tickets, fair play. Including, I 'assume', how €5,500 tickets will cover a €4.2m loan repayment that is on the horizon.

The Bye Laws reference was a question as to the ownership of the IRFU Munster Branch. I can see that you can't answer it. Funny.

No need for a therapist, Champ. There's too much fun in blowing open the complete ignorance most Irish rugby followers have of that system.

Ulster Rugby Ltd..... chuckle.

Why don't you explain the ownership of Munster since you constantly contradict yourself on it

Im assuming it played a part in deciding to have that lump sum paid next year, I think the target is 1500 tickets. That would make the balance sheet look a lot better with the ticket sales included on it. You want to do the sums on that one?

Now you want to tell us why you continually hijack threads attacking Irish rugby?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:The organisations alluded to..in good pure English...are the WRU and PRW.

The WRU has changed, in case you hadn't noticed.

And this would be a club run competition so the WRU wouldn't be involved.

Well done.

Unless the regions plan to play all their games in England the WRU would have to be involved

marty2086 wrote:

Why don't you explain the ownership of Munster since you constantly contradict yourself on it

Im assuming it played a part in deciding to have that lump sum paid next year, I think the target is 1500 tickets. That would make the balance sheet look a lot better with the ticket sales included on it. You want to do the sums on that one?

Now you want to tell us why you continually hijack threads attacking Irish rugby?

Show me a contradiction. Go on.... prove it.

1500 x €5,500 = €8,250,000 as you lot don't pay VAT on tickets, from memory. That's some target. It will clear last year's loss, this year's loss and the necessary payment on the stadium.

And then give not much left over to fund the team in the future.

I haven't seen a thread attacking Irish rugby but if there is one there'd be no need to hijack it.

marty2086 wrote:
Unless the regions plan to play all their games in England the WRU would have to be involved

No, it wouldn't.

PRL run the competition with the approval of the RFU. The expansion could easily be on the same terms.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Unless the regions plan to play all their games in England the WRU would have to be involved

No, it wouldn't.

PRL run the competition with the approval of the RFU. The expansion could easily be on the same terms.

No it couldn't as each respective union is responsible for games in their country, maybe instead of trying to teach Irish fans rubbish about Irish rugby maybe go do a bit of research

marty2086 wrote:
No it couldn't as each respective union is responsible for games in their country, maybe instead of trying to teach Irish fans rubbish about Irish rugby maybe go do a bit of research

Martyn, why do you do this to yourself? You have this stupid willingness to attack me when all I do is school you thereafter.

PRL run the Aviva Premiership, Martyn. Not the RFU. Just as I wrote above.

Now, if you genuinely didn't know this then that's not a problem. The problem was caused by the bit you wrote after the word 'country' in the post I've quoted.

If you quit with the silly attitude, you wouldn't have to get so publicly shamed.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
No it couldn't as each respective union is responsible for games in their country, maybe instead of trying to teach Irish fans rubbish about Irish rugby maybe go do a bit of research

Martyn, why do you do this to yourself? You have this stupid willingness to attack me when all I do is school you thereafter.

PRL run the Aviva Premiership, Martyn. Not the RFU. Just as I wrote above.

Now, if you genuinely didn't know this then that's not a problem. The problem was caused by the bit you wrote after the word 'country' in the post I've quoted.

If you quit with the silly attitude, you wouldn't have to get so publicly shamed.

Hold on a minute?

You hijack a thread 'trying to educate Irish fans' then say I have a silly attitude?

Lets address a few things

Firstly you said

PRL run the competition with the approval of the RFU. The expansion could easily be on the same terms

It can hardly be on the same terms when WRU have to be involved plus both run separate contracting systems so it can't easily be on the same terms.

That's whats called an assumption, apparently only you are allowed to make them then?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Oh?  Changing your clothes again to suit the weather.  No, let's stick with the Anglo/Welsh League.  Have the courage of your convictions.  Fight for what you believe in....Chunk.  After all, come the ending of the current Pro12 thing, you're hoping the WRU fight for what they believe in... with the current 'Region friendly' people in control there.

No change, Champ. I've often written that Leinster would be one of the best teams in Europe if they weren't IRFU owned and controlled.

Chunk is @smallclone, as I've told you once already.

You're right, though, I do hope that Phillips is fighting for his members.

That's why you're on one planet and people like me are on another one.  Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe.  And their prowess when the best won't be forgotten.  That time has already happened as a Union owned Province.  I'm not from Dublin.  I'm from that Province.  I don't need some Private man or men owning Leinster to feel that Leinster belongs to me - sharing in its good times and brooding through the bad times.  But Leinster were the best in Europe...it's not a dream I have to concoct.

Nothing lasts forever - the terrain shifts.  Other sides grow and dominate.  So be it. That's what's happening now.  You take it and you plan to get back up there.  You plan to perhaps do it again for a year or two sometime down the line.  That's what's already in the planning at Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Connacht.  Why should any of that be any different or better with some Private moneyman owning things?

Professionalism is professionalism - making money is making money.  Finding the funds to keep or buy players is the same all through Europe.  The IRFU Provincial system has worked.  It's proved itself.  Your system, the Regions - supposedly a kind of Private Club set-up - hasn't worked to the same extent.  Yet you keep insisting it's the Provinces that have to accept Private money men in to save/buy out Provinces.  They won't buy out Provinces and they won't buy out me.  All they'll buy is a Dublin Club.  A Private Dublin Club will not have Provincial-sized support any more than created 'Regions' get total support from Welsh fans that don't regard them as such.

marty2086 wrote:

You hijack a thread 'trying to educate Irish fans' then say I have a silly attitude?

Lets address a few things

Firstly you said

PRL run the competition with the approval of the RFU. The expansion could easily be on the same terms

It can hardly be on the same terms when WRU have to be involved plus both run separate contracting systems so it can't easily be on the same terms.

That's whats called an assumption, apparently only you are allowed to make them then?

I haven't hijacked any thread, but I did point out your silly attitude.

The WRU don't have to be involved. Just as the RFU are not involved.

What on earth is your reference to 'separate contracting systems'?

My 'assumption' is for a hypothetical. Your assumption was for a reality. Can you really not spot the difference? You can only assume with a hypothetical because, erm, it's hypothetical.

SecretFly wrote:
That's why you're on one planet and people like me are on another one.  Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe.  And their prowess when the best won't be forgotten.  That time has already happened as a Union owned Province.  I'm not from Dublin.  I'm from that Province.  I don't need some Private man or men owning Leinster to feel that Leinster belongs to me - sharing in its good times and brooding through the bad times.  But Leinster were the best in Europe...it's not a dream I have to concoct.

Nothing lasts forever - the terrain shifts.  Other sides grow and dominate.  So be it.  That's what's happening now.  You take it and you plan to get back up there.  You plan to perhaps do it again for a year or two sometime down the line.  That's what's already in the planning at Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Connacht.  Why should any of that be any different or better with some Private moneyman owning things?

Professionalism is professionalism - making money is making money.  Finding the funds to keep or buy players is the same all through Europe.  The IRFU Provincial system has worked.  It's proved itself.  Your system, the Regions - supposedly a kind of Private Club set-up - hasn't worked to the same extent.  Yet you keep insisting it's the Provinces that have to accept Private money men in to save/buy out Provinces.  They won't buy out Provinces and they won't buy out me.  All they'll buy is a Dublin Club.  A Private Dublin Club will not have Provincial-sized support any more than created 'Regions' get total support from Welsh fans that don't regard them as such.

Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe when the IRFU could afford for them to be. Now they can't be. See?

The planning would be easier at Leinster with private money men owning things as there'd be money to be spent on ensuring the better players are around. Instead of taking Isa out of retirement, you could have had Le Roux etc. Instead of losing Madigan to Bordeaux, he could have been kept. Instead of relying on Cullen, you could have afforded a proper coach.

The final few sentences are interesting, though. I remember the first Heineken Cup semi final. It seems that you're happy to return to those days.

Since this has nothing to do with the original intention of the thread then you've hijacked it

Its not a hypothetical its a pipe ream that you try to ram down peoples throats, if you don't like the Pro 12 I think its been made clear already. No need to continually go on and on with the hope that one day your dream will come true like a kid waiting on Santa at xmas with their new bike

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No Einstein I assume the structure of the loan repayments are based around the 10 year ticket sales

I thought there was just a statement from you about the bye laws but again none of that is relevant to this thread

Seems you just like to air your grievances about the evils of Irish rugby, is a therapist not something you would consider? Or does the complexes you seem to have prevent you accepting the idea of seeing one?

You're assuming a lot about this 10 year tickets, fair play. Including, I 'assume', how €5,500 tickets will cover a €4.2m loan repayment that is on the horizon.

The Bye Laws reference was a question as to the ownership of the IRFU Munster Branch. I can see that you can't answer it. Funny.

No need for a therapist, Champ. There's too much fun in blowing open the complete ignorance most Irish rugby followers have of that system.

Ulster Rugby Ltd..... chuckle.

1. From what I recall, Munster raised €9m from the last 10 year ticket sale in 2007. MR should be able to cover the €4.2m (and maybe even a bit more) with their next sale.
2. Munster funds the amateur game (or raises the resources to do so). For instance, Marks & Spencers sponsors the Munster's Community Rugby programme (in case you are worried about funds being directed towards Munster instead of the domestic game). Thomond Park & Musgrave Park which have been developed by Munster Rugby are also available to the domestic games (with each having 2 amateur clubs situated on them), including Schools Cups etc.
3. Munster have a sponsor for the Academy (Greencore) as well as the funds from the Munster Rugby Supporters Club which presented them with a cheque for €157,000 a week or so ago. To date, the MRSC have contributed about €1m to the Academy.
4. One training centre means less duplication of staff which will help cut costs.
5. Munster Rugby have entered into an agreement with an American Corporate Training Company who are going to use Munster's Training Centre and their staff for corporate training development from next year. Munster's new training centre is being paid for by the University of Limerick which will further training facilities cost.
6. Instead of one sugar daddy, Munster have Patrons (who agree to contribute 30K per annum to Munster Rugby for 3 years.

The recession has hit Munster hardest with its sparse population. I'm confident with the turnaround in the Irish economy it will come good again.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
That's why you're on one planet and people like me are on another one.  Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe.  And their prowess when the best won't be forgotten.  That time has already happened as a Union owned Province.  I'm not from Dublin.  I'm from that Province.  I don't need some Private man or men owning Leinster to feel that Leinster belongs to me - sharing in its good times and brooding through the bad times.  But Leinster were the best in Europe...it's not a dream I have to concoct.

Nothing lasts forever - the terrain shifts.  Other sides grow and dominate.  So be it.  That's what's happening now.  You take it and you plan to get back up there.  You plan to perhaps do it again for a year or two sometime down the line.  That's what's already in the planning at Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Connacht.  Why should any of that be any different or better with some Private moneyman owning things?

Professionalism is professionalism - making money is making money.  Finding the funds to keep or buy players is the same all through Europe.  The IRFU Provincial system has worked.  It's proved itself.  Your system, the Regions - supposedly a kind of Private Club set-up - hasn't worked to the same extent.  Yet you keep insisting it's the Provinces that have to accept Private money men in to save/buy out Provinces.  They won't buy out Provinces and they won't buy out me.  All they'll buy is a Dublin Club.  A Private Dublin Club will not have Provincial-sized support any more than created 'Regions' get total support from Welsh fans that don't regard them as such.

Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe when the IRFU could afford for them to be. Now they can't be. See?

The planning would be easier at Leinster with private money men owning things as there'd be money to be spent on ensuring the better players are around. Instead of taking Isa out of retirement, you could have had Le Roux etc. Instead of losing Madigan to Bordeaux, he could have been kept. Instead of relying on Cullen, you could have afforded a proper coach.

The final few sentences are interesting, though. I remember the first Heineken Cup semi final. It seems that you're happy to return to those days.

Instead of getting Chieka or Schmidt they could have got a proper coach too

As the regions have shown have private money is meaningless as they still need to go running to the WRU begging for money, wheres their better players?

PhilBB wrote:

Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe when the IRFU could afford for them to be. Now they can't be. See?

The planning would be easier at Leinster with private money men owning things as there'd be money to be spent on ensuring the better players are around. Instead of taking Isa out of retirement, you could have had Le Roux etc. Instead of losing Madigan to Bordeaux, he could have been kept. Instead of relying on Cullen, you could have afforded a proper coach.

No, I don't see. Just because Phil declares something, that don't make it easy to see...or true.

"instead", "instead", "instead". So what have the Regions being doing? Have they been doing any 'insteading' over the last 10 or 15 years? No, they've been allowing their best players away to the highest bidder because even as Private run operations they can't compete.

Leinster were best when other sides in France especially had all the stars. I remember that specifically - one of the highlights for me of all the HEC years. Leinster lining out against Clermont - on their way for a third HEC I think...but to the SKY boys.... they were talking about all the Star Players on the Clermont side. Leinster were still the side where many people in Europe had to ask their pals who played for them.

Provincial System worked. New climate, new big sides, new cycle. Nothing lasts forever - as Toulon found out - good times go and good times come. It'll take five or six years more yet before anyone could write up the failure of the Provincial IRFU owned system.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
That's why you're on one planet and people like me are on another one.  Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe.  And their prowess when the best won't be forgotten.  That time has already happened as a Union owned Province.  I'm not from Dublin.  I'm from that Province.  I don't need some Private man or men owning Leinster to feel that Leinster belongs to me - sharing in its good times and brooding through the bad times.  But Leinster were the best in Europe...it's not a dream I have to concoct.

Nothing lasts forever - the terrain shifts.  Other sides grow and dominate.  So be it.  That's what's happening now.  You take it and you plan to get back up there.  You plan to perhaps do it again for a year or two sometime down the line.  That's what's already in the planning at Leinster, Ulster, Munster and Connacht.  Why should any of that be any different or better with some Private moneyman owning things?

Professionalism is professionalism - making money is making money.  Finding the funds to keep or buy players is the same all through Europe.  The IRFU Provincial system has worked.  It's proved itself.  Your system, the Regions - supposedly a kind of Private Club set-up - hasn't worked to the same extent.  Yet you keep insisting it's the Provinces that have to accept Private money men in to save/buy out Provinces.  They won't buy out Provinces and they won't buy out me.  All they'll buy is a Dublin Club.  A Private Dublin Club will not have Provincial-sized support any more than created 'Regions' get total support from Welsh fans that don't regard them as such.

Leinster were one of the best teams in Europe when the IRFU could afford for them to be. Now they can't be. See?

The planning would be easier at Leinster with private money men owning things as there'd be money to be spent on ensuring the better players are around. Instead of taking Isa out of retirement, you could have had Le Roux etc. Instead of losing Madigan to Bordeaux, he could have been kept. Instead of relying on Cullen, you could have afforded a proper coach.

The final few sentences are interesting, though. I remember the first Heineken Cup semi final. It seems that you're happy to return to those days.

But Leinster has private patrons without them owning Leinster. Sexton, O'Brien & Heaslip have private sponsors. Isa was brought back because he was a known quality and provided leadership.

Madigan didn't go to Bordeaux for the money. He went because he would never be first choice with Sexton there.

Funny thing about missing the good old days - I quite enjoy this new phase of rebuilding again with even bigger challenges.

marty2086 wrote:Since this has nothing to do with the original intention of the thread then you've hijacked it

Its not a hypothetical its a pipe ream that you try to ram down peoples throats, if you don't like the Pro 12 I think its been made clear already. No need to continually go on and on with the hope that one day your dream will come true like a kid waiting on Santa at xmas with their new bike

Okie dokes. So, no answers.

Sin é wrote:
1.  From what I recall, Munster raised €9m from the last 10 year ticket sale in 2007. MR should be able to cover the €4.2m (and maybe even a bit more) with their next sale.
2.  Munster funds the amateur game (or raises the resources to do so). For instance, Marks & Spencers sponsors the Munster's Community Rugby programme (in case you are worried about funds being directed towards Munster instead of the domestic game). Thomond Park & Musgrave Park which have been developed by Munster Rugby are also available to the domestic games (with each having 2 amateur clubs situated on them), including Schools Cups etc.
3.  Munster have a sponsor for the Academy (Greencore) as well as the funds from the Munster Rugby Supporters Club which presented them with a cheque for €157,000 a week or so ago. To date, the MRSC have contributed about €1m to the Academy.
4.  One training centre means less duplication of staff which will help cut costs.
5.  Munster Rugby have entered into an agreement with an American Corporate Training Company who are going to use Munster's Training Centre and their staff for corporate training development from next year. Munster's new training centre is being paid for by the University of Limerick which will further training facilities cost.
6.  Instead of one sugar daddy, Munster have Patrons (who agree to contribute 30K per annum to Munster Rugby for 3 years.

The recession has hit Munster hardest with its sparse population. I'm confident with the turnaround in the Irish economy it will come good again.

That's great stuff and all in the public domain, but I can't see how that will get Munster to where it was.

marty2086 wrote:

Instead of getting Chieka or Schmidt they could have got a proper coach too

As the regions have shown have private money is meaningless as they still need to go running to the WRU begging for money, wheres their better players?

Cheika and Schmidt were proper coaches.

Nobody begs the WRU for money. The better players are returning slowly as the increase in budgets allow.

Our issue is twofold: the WRU's inability to pay market rate for the player access and the woeful TV deal because of the woeful league. With ether of those rectified, we'd be able to meet the English salary cap.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
1.  From what I recall, Munster raised €9m from the last 10 year ticket sale in 2007. MR should be able to cover the €4.2m (and maybe even a bit more) with their next sale.
2.  Munster funds the amateur game (or raises the resources to do so). For instance, Marks & Spencers sponsors the Munster's Community Rugby programme (in case you are worried about funds being directed towards Munster instead of the domestic game). Thomond Park & Musgrave Park which have been developed by Munster Rugby are also available to the domestic games (with each having 2 amateur clubs situated on them), including Schools Cups etc.
3.  Munster have a sponsor for the Academy (Greencore) as well as the funds from the Munster Rugby Supporters Club which presented them with a cheque for €157,000 a week or so ago. To date, the MRSC have contributed about €1m to the Academy.
4.  One training centre means less duplication of staff which will help cut costs.
5.  Munster Rugby have entered into an agreement with an American Corporate Training Company who are going to use Munster's Training Centre and their staff for corporate training development from next year. Munster's new training centre is being paid for by the University of Limerick which will further training facilities cost.
6.  Instead of one sugar daddy, Munster have Patrons (who agree to contribute 30K per annum to Munster Rugby for 3 years.

The recession has hit Munster hardest with its sparse population. I'm confident with the turnaround in the Irish economy it will come good again.

That's great stuff and all in the public domain, but I can't see how that will get Munster to where it was.

Well thats sport for you. Maybe we'll never be where we were before, but trying to achieve that is going to be fun. Not everyone can win every year.

SecretFly wrote:
"instead", "instead", "instead".  So what have the Regions being doing?  Have they been doing any 'insteading' over the last 10 or 15 years?  No, they've been allowing their best players away to the highest bidder because even as Private run operations they can't compete.  

Leinster were best when other sides in France especially had all the stars.  I remember that specifically - one of the highlights for me of all the HEC years.  Leinster lining out against Clermont - on their way for a third HEC I think...but to the SKY boys.... they were talking about all the Star Players on the Clermont side.  Leinster were still the side where many people in Europe had to ask their pals who played for them.

Provincial System worked.  New climate, new big sides, new cycle.  Nothing lasts forever - as Toulon found out - good times go and good times come.  It'll take five or six years more yet before anyone could write up the failure of the Provincial IRFU owned system.

Rewriting history is a pretty woeful tactic, Eric.

We all know the reasons why, post 2010, Welsh rugby declined.

I've not seen one piece of output from anywhere that says the Irish system doesn't have to change.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Instead of getting Chieka or Schmidt they could have got a proper coach too

As the regions have shown have private money is meaningless as they still need to go running to the WRU begging for money, wheres their better players?

Cheika and Schmidt were proper coaches.

Nobody begs the WRU for money. The better players are returning slowly as the increase in budgets allow.

Our issue is twofold: the WRU's inability to pay market rate for the player access and the woeful TV deal because of the woeful league. With ether of those rectified, we'd be able to meet the English salary cap.

Your problem is that the Welsh supporters attitude has rubbed off on the players who don't give a toss about their regions and are only returning to Wales so that they will be picked to represent Wales.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
"instead", "instead", "instead".  So what have the Regions being doing?  Have they been doing any 'insteading' over the last 10 or 15 years?  No, they've been allowing their best players away to the highest bidder because even as Private run operations they can't compete.  

Leinster were best when other sides in France especially had all the stars.  I remember that specifically - one of the highlights for me of all the HEC years.  Leinster lining out against Clermont - on their way for a third HEC I think...but to the SKY boys.... they were talking about all the Star Players on the Clermont side.  Leinster were still the side where many people in Europe had to ask their pals who played for them.

Provincial System worked.  New climate, new big sides, new cycle.  Nothing lasts forever - as Toulon found out - good times go and good times come.  It'll take five or six years more yet before anyone could write up the failure of the Provincial IRFU owned system.

Rewriting history is a pretty woeful tactic, Eric.

We all know the reasons why, post 2010, Welsh rugby declined.

I've not seen one piece of output from anywhere that says the Irish system doesn't have to change.

You spend acres of print rewriting history... thought you'd be a fan of the sport, chunk?

You can swing it but you can't change it.  The success of Provinces to date is in print and in records... this year being another one.  You call the League woeful.  I think we all have evidence this season about some of the reasons why.  Where were the Welsh regions crying out in protest as a full International was planned for Pro12 final weekend, all the way back in December last year?  Did Gatland know something he wasn't letting the Regional owners in on?  Did he know his Welsh boys would be too busy thinking about International on that Pro12 final weekend?

If the Pro12 is woeful, look to your own Regions for blame.  If that's the way you want it - if it's a plan coming together nicely for you, then don't complain.  Sit back, have a sandwich...relax.

Sin é wrote:

Well thats sport for you. Maybe we'll never be where we were before, but trying to achieve that is going to be fun. Not everyone can win every year.

Good stuff, Sin. I'm with you. The challenge is all part of the fun. Looking at what's up there and trying to plan on taking a smile off their faces somewhere down the line.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Yes their cashflow will be hit but the 10 year ticket setup predates the loan, I'd assume the structure of repayments are based around this. If it wasn't done this way I'm sure you'd still be bitching

Given they are accessing other income streams on top of the tickets their cashflow should be fine.

Why don't you Google the Ts&Cs like you do everything else?

Maybe you can answer the question from yesterday though as how this all relates to moving the Pro12 forward?

Ah, so you're assuming.

Their cashflow is €2.3m the wrong way this year. That's a big turnaround you're predicting.

I did Google the Ts & Cs. I didn't find an answer, hence I knew you were 'assuming'.

This doesn't relate to the PrO'12 moving forward. Maybe you could now answer the question on 3.1 on the Bye Laws on Munster Branch IRFU. Could you?

Or will you continue to 'assume'?

Title of this topic is The Pro12, how do we move forward ?
If you are not posting on this topic please create a new article that we can ignore, thanks.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Instead of getting Chieka or Schmidt they could have got a proper coach too

As the regions have shown have private money is meaningless as they still need to go running to the WRU begging for money, wheres their better players?

Cheika and Schmidt were proper coaches.

Nobody begs the WRU for money. The better players are returning slowly as the increase in budgets allow.

Our issue is twofold: the WRU's inability to pay market rate for the player access and the woeful TV deal because of the woeful league. With ether of those rectified, we'd be able to meet the English salary cap.

A lot of people didn't see Cheika and Schmidt as proper coaches and wanted bigger names, for someone who isn't a proper coach Cullen lead them to the top of the table and the best defence. Just another meek attempt to try and bash Irish rugby

The regions begged plenty to get the NDCs in place. Then again private ownership is the way to go as Unions can't keep up

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
"instead", "instead", "instead".  So what have the Regions being doing?  Have they been doing any 'insteading' over the last 10 or 15 years?  No, they've been allowing their best players away to the highest bidder because even as Private run operations they can't compete.  

Leinster were best when other sides in France especially had all the stars.  I remember that specifically - one of the highlights for me of all the HEC years.  Leinster lining out against Clermont - on their way for a third HEC I think...but to the SKY boys.... they were talking about all the Star Players on the Clermont side.  Leinster were still the side where many people in Europe had to ask their pals who played for them.

Provincial System worked.  New climate, new big sides, new cycle.  Nothing lasts forever - as Toulon found out - good times go and good times come.  It'll take five or six years more yet before anyone could write up the failure of the Provincial IRFU owned system.

Rewriting history is a pretty woeful tactic, Eric.

We all know the reasons why, post 2010, Welsh rugby declined.

I've not seen one piece of output from anywhere that says the Irish system doesn't have to change.

Except from the man running it you mean? But then again who knows better than Phil

Sin é wrote:
Your problem is that the Welsh supporters attitude has rubbed off on the players who don't give a toss about their regions and are only returning to Wales so that they will be picked to represent Wales.

Oh dear. What a rather silly post.

SecretFly wrote:
You spend acres of print rewriting history... thought you'd be a fan of the sport, chunk?

You can swing it but you can't change it.  The success of Provinces to date is in print and in records... this year being another one.  You call the League woeful.  I think we all have evidence this season about some of the reasons why.  Where were the Welsh regions crying out in protest as a full International was planned for Pro12 final weekend, all the way back in December last year?  Did Gatland know something he wasn't letting the Regional owners in on?  Did he know his Welsh boys would be too busy thinking about International on that Pro12 final weekend?

If the Pro12 is woeful, look to your own Regions for blame.  If that's the way you want it - if it's a plan coming together nicely for you, then don't complain.  Sit back, have a sandwich...relax.

chunky norwich = @smallclone
Me = @rugbyphilbb

Even the basics like the above seem to confuse you, Eric, despite being schooled on it previously.

As for the English game, I think there's enough Welsh qualified players to make a team to play England even if, unlikely, there had been two Welsh teams in the final.

The woefulness of the PrO'12 is for many reasons. I love the Irish rugby follower narrative that says all is well with the PrO'12. I can see why the altnerative scares the bejesus out of them.

marty2086 wrote:
A lot of people didn't see Cheika and Schmidt as proper coaches and wanted bigger names, for someone who isn't a proper coach Cullen lead them to the top of the table and the best defence.  Just another meek attempt to try and bash Irish rugby

The regions begged plenty to get the NDCs in place. Then again private ownership is the way to go as Unions can't keep up

Then those people who didn't see them as big names didn't know their rugby, unsurprisingly.

PRW didn't want NDCs. They are a construct of Lewis because of the Barclays issue. Do keep up.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
A lot of people didn't see Cheika and Schmidt as proper coaches and wanted bigger names, for someone who isn't a proper coach Cullen lead them to the top of the table and the best defence.  Just another meek attempt to try and bash Irish rugby

The regions begged plenty to get the NDCs in place. Then again private ownership is the way to go as Unions can't keep up

Then those people who didn't see them as big names didn't know their rugby, unsurprisingly.

PRW didn't want NDCs. They are a construct of Lewis because of the Barclays issue. Do keep up.

Plenty would say the same about you

NDCs are a result of PRW wanting changes and funding after bitching and moaning, do keep up dear

marty2086 wrote:
Except from the man running it you mean? But then again who knows better than Phil

That's a good point. I should have been more clear in my comment as I didn't consider it would be misread so badly. My fault, I had forgotten the audience.

I'm not surprised that King Blazer doesn't want to change the system that makes him King Blazer.

PhilBB wrote: I love the Irish rugby follower

We love you too phil

marty2086 wrote:

Plenty would say the same about you

NDCs are a result of PRW wanting changes and funding after bitching and moaning, do keep up dear

Undoubtedly plenty would. They'd be in the same camp who didn't think Schmidt was a big name.

You seem to have changed your tune from 'wanted' to 'a result of'. Oh dear, what a u-turn.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Plenty would say the same about you

NDCs are a result of PRW wanting changes and funding after bitching and moaning, do keep up dear

Undoubtedly plenty would. They'd be in the same camp who didn't think Schmidt was a big name.

You seem to have changed your tune from 'wanted' to 'a result of'. Oh dear, what a u-turn.

He wasn't a big name

I never said they wanted them, I said they bitched and moaned to get them as they wanted anything that meant more money for them. Sorry my bad I forgot they are all kind hearted altruistic noble gents who would never act so ignobly

PhilBB wrote:

chunky norwich = @smallclone
Me = @rugbyphilbb

Even the basics like the above seem to confuse you, Eric, despite being schooled on it previously.

Do you ever listen to yourself, chunk? Are you an alias for Stephen Jones? The lick of 'authority' you bring to your persona is like that of an old school Principal with an outdated, over-used cane. Even the kids that get the caning begin laughing at the punishment - it's too familiar a thing. It's too often used?

Do you get annoyed when someone wilfully mis-names you - or do you just get even?

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
You spend acres of print rewriting history... thought you'd be a fan of the sport, chunk?

You can swing it but you can't change it.  The success of Provinces to date is in print and in records... this year being another one.  You call the League woeful.  I think we all have evidence this season about some of the reasons why.  Where were the Welsh regions crying out in protest as a full International was planned for Pro12 final weekend, all the way back in December last year?  Did Gatland know something he wasn't letting the Regional owners in on?  Did he know his Welsh boys would be too busy thinking about International on that Pro12 final weekend?

If the Pro12 is woeful, look to your own Regions for blame.  If that's the way you want it - if it's a plan coming together nicely for you, then don't complain.  Sit back, have a sandwich...relax.

chunky norwich = @smallclone
Me = @rugbyphilbb

Even the basics like the above seem to confuse you,Eric, despite being schooled on it previously.

As for the English game, I think there's enough Welsh qualified players to make a team to play England even if, unlikely, there had been two Welsh teams in the final.

The woefulness of the PrO'12 is for many reasons. I love the Irish rugby follower narrative that says all is well with the PrO'12. I can see why the altnerative scares the bejesus out of them.

Why are you calling Fly, 'Eric'?

PhilBB wrote:

I'm not surprised that King Blazer doesn't want to change the system that makes him King Blazer.

Are we surprised a man named Phil would want King Blazer changed? After all, he's responsible for all the ills of Welsh Rugby.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Except from the man running it you mean? But then again who knows better than Phil

That's a good point. I should have been more clear in my comment as I didn't consider it would be misread so badly. My fault, I had forgotten the audience.

I'm not surprised that King Blazer doesn't want to change the system that makes him King Blazer.

Yeah insult the audience to mask your ignorance, its not like he made sense with his argument. Which is more that could be said for you who just spits out his dummy and spews insults

I'm trying to figure out why anyone wants to have their sporting club owned by one wealthy individual rather than an organisation that has a membership who votes them in and out.

I guess its a cultural thing in Ireland about sport being something that the community own.

PhilBB wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:No we haven't. Can you provide Saracens? I don't think you'll be able to. Saying English clubs can spend up to x pounds isn't telling us they do.

Which clubs do you think don't? Let's start there and then we can find the links to disprove you.

Cool, cheers. Don't think Saracens are this season can you provide the link please? Thanks in advance.

Munchkin wrote:
Why are you calling Fly, 'Eric'?

Because his posts are like Cantona's trawler nonsense, delivered through the brain of Father Jack.