Glasgow and Edinburgh: Ongoing Banter Thread XII - Twelve Monkeys

[A Simply Mesmeric Try]

First topic message reminder :

A Brief History of Time-Wasting


https://www.606v2.com/t48240-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread
https://www.606v2.com/t51313-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ii
https://www.606v2.com/t53119-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iii
https://www.606v2.com/t54519-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-iv
https://www.606v2.com/t55409-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-v-the-fun-continues
https://www.606v2.com/t56913-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-vi-banter-boogaloo
https://www.606v2.com/t57946-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-vii
https://www.606v2.com/t58659-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-viii
https://www.606v2.com/t59409-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-ix
https://www.606v2.com/t60764-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-x-rated
https://www.606v2.com/t61904-glasgow-and-edinburgh-ongoing-banter-thread-xi-the-undiscovered-country

Edinburgh

1872 Champions

Edinburgh's Fixtures & Results (click to show):

Glasgow

1872 Runners-up

Glasgow Warrior's Fixtures & Results (click to show):

Ladies and Gents, Girls and Boys, it's season finale!

Guinness PRO12 Play Offs
Fri 20 May 19:45 - Semi Final
Leinster Rugby 30 - 18   Ulster Rugby - RDS Arena 19,100

Sat 21 May 18:30 - Semi Final
Connacht Rugby  16 - 11   Glasgow Warriors - Galway Sportsground 7,800

Sat 28 May 17:30 - Grand Final
Leinster Rugby  10 - 20  Connacht Rugby  - BT Murrayfield - 34,550

Cinderella story or what?! Congrats to the Galway posse who were the form team of the season!

[IanBru]

Three mates

Stop showing you'll make Bru cry.

Oi, you.

[jimbopip]

I'm sure she does, mine thinks I'm really funny.

[funnyExiledScot]

Quins is a good shout for Jackson and they play the right sort of attacking rugby to suit his game. I'm pleased he's thriving down south. He's underrated by large numbers of Scotland supporters in my experience.

[BigGee]

Another great servant to Scottish rugby calls it a day as Chris Cusiter hangs up his boots.

Off to sell Whisky to the yanks in California, good luck to him in his new venture.

[IanBru]

This is pretty brutal - one by one, my childhood heroes are retiring, while my childhood nemeses are given lucrative punditry jobs by BT Sport.

Looking at you, Healey.

[BigGee]

Well Edinburgh just announced their summer departures via a You tube video and it is quite an extensive list as well

Strauss A, Toolis A, Fife D, Cuthbert J, McLennan, Kaota (Tongan winger), Te Rure in addition to those we already knew about.

Most of them no great surprises. Alex Toolis would have been worth keeping but probably fancied his chances elsewhere and Dougie Fife seems to have lost form this season, sevens or a new club somewhere else beckons for him.

[RDW]

Shame about Fife - he's not international class but has been a decent player for Edinburgh. He's been involved with the 7s so maybe he'll go there.

No real surprise for the rest - A Toolis is a good player but he knows he's 5th choice when everyone is fit.

The rest - thanks but see you later!

[BigGee]

London Scottish announced another SH signing as well today, which will probably mean that George Horne will be coming back up to cover the 4th SH slot as an academy player.

He has had a lot of game time down there which he should hopefully have benefitted from. He will likely get his chance with Glasgow at some stage during the next season.

[EST]

I rate George Horne, and you are right BigGee, his experience with LS shows just how beneficial that relationship can become in the future. A year playing pro rugby rather than the odd game for a Premiership team.

Regarding the guys being released by Edinburgh, there are some good players being let go: Shiells, Toolis and Fife especially. I would actually take Fife and Toolis at Glasgow, there is a lot for Toonie and co to work with there.

[RDW]

I rate George Horne, and you are right BigGee, his experience with LS shows just how beneficial that relationship can become in the future.   A year playing pro rugby rather than the odd game for a Premiership team.

Regarding the guys being released by Edinburgh, there are some good players being let go: Shiells, Toolis and Fife especially.  I would actually take Fife and Toolis at Glasgow, there is a lot for Toonie and co to work with there.

Shiells wasn't on the list?

[Majestic83]

Most of those players leaving Edinburgh are to be expected. Slightly surprised by Fife going, been out of form but on his day is he is very good at pro 12 level.
Toolis i'm slightly disappointed he is going, he has looked good this season when he has had a run of games. Will be interesting to see if the rumours are true and he is going back to the rebels & the Australian union.

Grant Shiells has been unlucky, very good prop who just hasn't had any game time, hopefully gets signed up by another team.

The others have been solid when they have played but won't be a real lose.
Going by Edinburgh's recent history with 10s I expect to see Te Rure going back to New Zealand and becoming their starting 10.

[EST]

I rate George Horne, and you are right BigGee, his experience with LS shows just how beneficial that relationship can become in the future.   A year playing pro rugby rather than the odd game for a Premiership team.

Regarding the guys being released by Edinburgh, there are some good players being let go: Shiells, Toolis and Fife especially.  I would actually take Fife and Toolis at Glasgow, there is a lot for Toonie and co to work with there.

Shiells wasn't on the list?

I think so RDW, unless I just imagined it...which could be equally as likely considering work just now.

Edit: Just checked and he is out the door, he is a very promising prop who deserves another shot.

[Majestic83]

I rate George Horne, and you are right BigGee, his experience with LS shows just how beneficial that relationship can become in the future.   A year playing pro rugby rather than the odd game for a Premiership team.

Regarding the guys being released by Edinburgh, there are some good players being let go: Shiells, Toolis and Fife especially.  I would actually take Fife and Toolis at Glasgow, there is a lot for Toonie and co to work with there.

Shiells wasn't on the list?

I think so RDW, unless I just imagined it...which could be equally as likely considering work just now.

The list I saw had Shiells name on it on twitter.

[George Carlin]

Fife simply isn't very good and if Edinburgh want to kick on, then they need to aspire to better. Wonder if he will sell himself as an inexperienced but potentially competent centre or an experienced and profoundly unexciting winger. 

Shiells leaving I am not happy about. He came from the Falcons with a very good reputation and hungry for game time. He seems to have stagnated terribly as a result of Solly's stupid non-rotation policy. If he leaves for a lower league but we keep the likes of Ryan Grant then my hypothetical house cat will get a virtual kick up the arse.

[Hazel Sapling]

If Shiells is being released, he better be signed by Glasgow. Allan and Grant are injury prone and another young SQ LH is needed.

Shame about Fife. Really did not think he would be leaving. Thought worst case sign for LS and play 7s. A Toolis makes no sense with Gilchrist and McKenzie being so fragile.

As for the rest. Fair enough. Tried hard. Not at the level necessary to be more than 3rd/4th choice.

[Majestic83]

Jack Cuthbert has found another club already....signed for Jersey.

A couple of the scots there already are on the move as well. Russell Anderson and Tommy Spinks both leaving Jersey.

[EST]

Fife simply isn't very good and if Edinburgh want to kick on, then they need to aspire to better. Wonder if he will sell himself as an inexperienced but potentially competent centre or an experienced and profoundly unexciting winger. 

Shiells leaving I am not happy about. He came from the Falcons with a very good reputation and hungry for game time. He seems to have stagnated terribly as a result of Solly's stupid non-rotation policy. If he leaves for a lower league but we keep the likes of Ryan Grant then my hypothetical house cat will get a virtual kick up the arse.

I agree about Shiells, George. Grant will more than likely sit at Glasgow, not playing, picking up the contact he earned after his Lions season. He has been rank average this year, I would gladly swap him for Shiells.

Fife, I am not so sure about. His form has been poor, but then he is playing in Sollys Edinburgh team. I agree he is not International quality, but I do think there is a genuinely good winger hiding in there somewhere.

[RDW]

That's a fair point about Fife - Look what happened to Visser when Solomons took over and look what has since happened when he moved to quins!

[George Carlin]

Fife has had all season to burn himself into Solly's saggy subconscious and he hasn't done it. He doesn't even seem to be preferred to Brown who is a converted full back (albeit a nippy one).

I don't wish to be harsh, but I am tired of mediocre Scottish players for whom lots of us (myself included, usually) make excuses when we need to be striving for excellence. Fife is 25 now. He needs to find a way to kick on.

Why would you have Fife when Maitland may not have a contract, Junior Bulumakau who is dying for some game time and a chance to show what he can do or when Robbie Nairn shows every sign of ripening into a very good player at Quins? The All Blacks mentality to selection may be harsh but it gets results.

[BigGee]

GC is right, you just got to take your chances in professional sport, someone will very quickly step in and take your place if you don't.

Fife has not shown any form this season and is paying the price for it.

Grant Sheils, having been so promising for Newcastle when playing in the championship, never really cemented his place in the side when they came back up, went to Bath, also at the back of the queue and then to Edinburgh, where a previous unknown called Rory Sutherland was demanding selection.

Interestingly the other young Newcastle TH who was playing at the same time (can't remember name, but was SQ and then got an England A cap), has also faded away from the scene. It is just not very easy for good youngsters to really establish themselves and they have got to take their chances when they get them.

GS probably needs to take a step down to the championship and get the chance of some game time. That is assuming he still has the appetite to be a professional rugby player. You could hardly blame him if he does not.

[RDW]

There's no doubting it is good to trim some of the deadwood from the squad.  Most of those players have hardly played this season.

I suppose it is just a shame for Fife because he's an Edinburgh lad, and is being replaced by a Northern Irishman.  If Scholes goes on to prove himself better than Fife (which I suspect he will) then great, but if he becomes another average Pro 12 winger (like Helu) then it rankles a bit.  I suspect he'll come good though.

Strauss, Katoa, McLennan and Te Rure have contributed bugger all to Edinburgh this season so they are very much in the deadwood category.

Shiells and Cuthbert have been solid enough but we also have better options (Cuthbert did have a very good game against Glasgow granted).

Question - who is Edinburgh's 4th choice loosehead now? i.e. who will be on the bench when Dickinson and Sutherland are with Scotland?

[BigGee]

Cuthbert, though limited and often maligned, has actually put in plenty of decent performances for Edinburgh. Probably more than anyone else who is leaving.

I am not saying you should keep him (or worse move him to Glasgow) but he should certainly leave with everyone's blessing.

[EST]

BigGee/GC,

I'm not arguing that Fife hasn't been relatively poor this season, it would be pretty hard to put up a convincing argument if you only judged him on this season alone. However, he has been playing in a team that is notorious for treating its wingers like something the dog dragged in.

I look at Fife and see a guy who has the basic credentials to be a good Pro 12 winger, and has indeed proved that in the past - he is actually very similar, at least physically, to Tommy Seymour. With Toonie's history of resurrecting former Edinburgh players, and playing in a team that actually passes them the ball, I think we could could get some value from Fife. Hell, you only have to look at the Selkirk Pixie to see what is possible when given the chance.

[RDW]

Cuthbert, though limited and often maligned, has actually put in plenty of decent performances for Edinburgh. Probably more than anyone else who is leaving.

I am not saying you should keep him (or worse move him to Glasgow) but he should certainly leave with everyone's blessing.

Agreed. He's had some bad moments but for a fullback who is around 8ft tall he has made a lot of damaging runs from deep!

Been a decent enough player for Edinburgh and was first choice for at least a season.

[Majestic83]

There's no doubting it is good to trim some of the deadwood from the squad.  Most of those players have hardly played this season.

I suppose it is just a shame for Fife because he's an Edinburgh lad, and is being replaced by a Northern Irishman.  If Scholes goes on to prove himself better than Fife (which I suspect he will) then great, but if he becomes another average Pro 12 winger (like Helu) then it rankles a bit.  I suspect he'll come good though.

Strauss, Katoa, McLennan and Te Rure have contributed bugger all to Edinburgh this season so they are very much in the deadwood category.

Shiells and Cuthbert have been solid enough but we also have better options (Cuthbert did have a very good game against Glasgow granted).

Question - who is Edinburgh's 4th choice loosehead now? i.e. who will be on the bench when Dickinson and Sutherland are with Scotland?

Think it will be Jack Cosgrove, signed at the beginning of the season but was then shipped down to LS and played a decent amount of games for them.

[George Carlin]

There's no doubting it is good to trim some of the deadwood from the squad.  Most of those players have hardly played this season.

I suppose it is just a shame for Fife because he's an Edinburgh lad, and is being replaced by a Northern Irishman.  If Scholes goes on to prove himself better than Fife (which I suspect he will) then great, but if he becomes another average Pro 12 winger (like Helu) then it rankles a bit.  I suspect he'll come good though.

Strauss, Katoa, McLennan and Te Rure have contributed bugger all to Edinburgh this season so they are very much in the deadwood category.

Shiells and Cuthbert have been solid enough but we also have better options (Cuthbert did have a very good game against Glasgow granted).

Question - who is Edinburgh's 4th choice loosehead now? i.e. who will be on the bench when Dickinson and Sutherland are with Scotland?

Think it will be Jack Cosgrove, signed at the beginning of the season but was then shipped down to LS and played a decent amount of games for them.

Cosgrove? Surely Radge is the 4th best prop in the vicinity at the moment?

[RDW]

There's no doubting it is good to trim some of the deadwood from the squad.  Most of those players have hardly played this season.

I suppose it is just a shame for Fife because he's an Edinburgh lad, and is being replaced by a Northern Irishman.  If Scholes goes on to prove himself better than Fife (which I suspect he will) then great, but if he becomes another average Pro 12 winger (like Helu) then it rankles a bit.  I suspect he'll come good though.

Strauss, Katoa, McLennan and Te Rure have contributed bugger all to Edinburgh this season so they are very much in the deadwood category.

Shiells and Cuthbert have been solid enough but we also have better options (Cuthbert did have a very good game against Glasgow granted).

Question - who is Edinburgh's 4th choice loosehead now? i.e. who will be on the bench when Dickinson and Sutherland are with Scotland?

Think it will be Jack Cosgrove, signed at the beginning of the season but was then shipped down to LS and played a decent amount of games for them.

For 4th choice that's probably the kind of player we need in the squad.

Saying that, if our first and second choice are away with Scotland a lot it means he will be getting gametime, and we're one injury away from not having any loosehead cover!

[jimbopip]

What about that young Kevin Bryce fella? He can play anywhere in the front row , can he not?

Well, certainly up to Luvvie standards.

[RDW]

What about that young Kevin Bryce fella? He can play anywhere in the front row , can he not?

Well, certainly up to Luvvie standards.

As a Glasgow fan how can you make jokes about Edinburgh's front row with any kind of credibility?

[IanBru]

What about that young Kevin Bryce fella? He can play anywhere in the front row , can he not?

Well, certainly up to Luvvie standards.

As a Glasgow fan how can you make jokes about Edinburgh's front row with any kind of credibility?

Because the mathematical symbol has not yet been invented to describe Edinburgh's chances of winning the league this year.

[George Carlin]

What about that young Kevin Bryce fella? He can play anywhere in the front row , can he not?

Well, certainly up to Luvvie standards.

As a Glasgow fan how can you make jokes about Edinburgh's front row with any kind of credibility?

Mostly numerically: 

Glasgow 71 points
Edinburgh 53 points

[BigGee]

Probably fair to say that the Glasgow front row has gone forward since Dec/Jan whereas the Edinburgh one has generally gone backwards.

Unfortunately for Edinburgh they were under the impression that the season was over following the xmas derby games!

Let me update them on that one, it was not!

[TheMildlyFranticLlama]

I don't wish to be harsh, but I am tired of mediocre Scottish players for whom lots of us (myself included, usually) make excuses when we need to be striving for excellence. Fife is 25 now. He needs to find a way to kick on.

I believe Alex Grove has come up against this very issue at Worcester. He's been around a long time now, had a lot of chances and just never managed to step up to the next level. Worcester have realised they need people capable of a higher standard week in week out, and I hope that Edinburgh and Glasgow don't seriously look at signing him. LS on the other hand would be a good move for both parties.

[RDW]

Come on weegies you're better than that - at no point was I trying to say Edinburgh are more successful than Glasgow. I just find it funny that Jimbo picked the one thing we're actually very good at to have a sly dig at!

I don't understand the Edinburgh scrum gone backwards chat - I can't remember a game where we've been 2nd best in the scrum, and generally have the upper hand against most teams. The only game I remember was Ulster away where they were desperately needing a rest, and even then the scrums were probably 50/50!

[funnyExiledScot]

Alex Toolis is a loss and I don't want to see Fife drop out of rugby (London Scottish?) but the rest of the departures I'm very comfortable with, Strauss in particular. I'll also raise a glass to Jade Te Rure this evening.

[BigGee]

I don't understand the Edinburgh scrum gone backwards chat

Probably more a case of ours going forward. It took a little while but Dan the man did eventually earn his keep and get them working well as a pack. I very much doubt we would get pushed around now, like we did at xmas and earlier in the season. You could put a decent argument together for Pulifisi being the player of the season, certainly the most improved.

[RDW]

No doubting Glasgow's scrum has massively improved. Pulifisi arrived with a dreadful scrummaging reputation and looked to be living up to that in his early days but has got vastly better.

You're wrong to say Edinburgh's scrum has got worse though - we're now expecting them to destroy all before them to the point where if we only get one or two penalties it isn't as impressive! It still remains a real weapon though.

[BigGee]

You're wrong to say Edinburgh's scrum has got worse though - we're now expecting them to destroy all before them to the point where if we only get one or two penalties it isn't as impressive! It still remains a real weapon though.

I still think there may be some truth in that, mainly because the front row, Nel, Ford and Dickenson have been playing all season and are now running on fumes. They have not quite been the force they were, or could be in the last few games at the business end of the season.

It all comes down to Solly's rotation (or rather non-rotation policy). It has caught them out once again and they may well have paid the price. Its a long season, especially in a world cup year.

[funnyExiledScot]

I think we'd all agree that Solomons needs to revisit his selection policy. He's been a wee bit stuck with tighthead because Nel is comfortably better than the rest, but Sutherland and Dell at loosehead and McInally and Turner at hooker really ought to have featured more. That's a talented quartet and all SQ to boot.

[jimbopip]

Come on weegies you're better than that - at no point was I trying to say Edinburgh are will ever again be more successful than Glasgow. I just find it funny that Jimbo picked the one thing we're actually very good at to have a sly dig at!

RDW, there was nothing sly about it.

Sometimes things get a little too cosy here so I poke you with my Pavlov Stick and wait for the conditioned reflex, then Bru, GC and BigGee rush in with the punch lines. Thank you for being the Ernie Wise to our Eric Morecambe.

If life was a game of chess I would call that opening "The Schizoid Gambit" ; Schiz just calls it normal social etiquette.

p.s. you know your front row is "no bad, like". Pity they have been totally cream crackered since mid-January.

[MacKnocked-on]

Alex Toolis is a loss and I don't want to see Fife drop out of rugby (London Scottish?) but the rest of the departures I'm very comfortable with, Strauss in particular. I'll also raise a glass to Jade Te Rure this evening.

I feel a bit sorry for Te Rure, I think in the very few games he played when he wasn't injured he showed some flashes of real attacking heads up rugby. I think he could possibly have developed in to a pretty useful player, hopefully he gets fit and gets a chance elsewhere.

[RDW]

It has been a while since I’ve had a Te Rure rant, but I saw him very much like Rory Hutton – he had a good break and running game but he was severally lacking in his basic skillset elsewhere to make it as a Pro 10. Yes he could have worked on those but he needed to be doing that in Prem 1 not for Edinburgh.

[BigGee]

It has been a while since I’ve had a Te Rure rant, but I saw him very much like Rory Hutton – he had a good break and running game but he was severally lacking in his basic skillset elsewhere to make it as a Pro 10.  Yes he could have worked on those but he needed to be doing that in Prem 1 not for Edinburgh.

Probably one of those players we will never quite be sure about, hard to make any kind of judgement on his limited appearances for Edinburgh.

Was he one that got away, I guess we will only know if like Piers Francis, he is holding down a regular starting spot in a Super Rugby franchise in a few years time. I don't think any of us ever saw that coming either!

[RDW]

Francis was the polar opposite - he had a decent all round skillet but didn't have any standout features in any aspect!

[BigGee]

Francis was the polar opposite - he had a decent all round skillet but didn't have any standout features in any aspect!

Well with the benefit of hindsight, he was a much better player than he was given credit for whilst he was here. He just could not show it playing in that Edinburgh team at the time (probably would be no different now). I watched the Blues play last weekend and he did have a very good game and is clearly thought of highly out there.

Its a bit of a worry that we can't get the best out of players like that.

[RDW]

Edinburgh has been a bit of a graveyard for standoffs and wingers.

Doesn't bode well for Weir and Scholes...

[VinceWLB]

They better be right about Gilchrist and McKenzie injuries status, otherwise the decision to let A. Toolis go will go down as one of the worst in the club's history.

[EST]

Edinburgh has been a bit of a graveyard for standoffs and wingers.

Doesn't bode well for Weir and Scholes...

Hopefully, with Hodge having a full pre-season with the team, he can persuade Solomons to become slightly more progressive regarding Edinburgh's back play.

[RDW]

Edinburgh has been a bit of a graveyard for standoffs and wingers.

Doesn't bode well for Weir and Scholes...

Hopefully, with Hodge having a full pre-season with the team, he can persuade Solomons to become slightly more progressive regarding Edinburgh's back play.  

we've started to see a bit of it already - we're now actually running dummy lines and throwing the odd switch move in there.

We aren't doing it overly effectively, but at least we are trying!

[MacKnocked-on]

I think we'd all agree that Solomons needs to revisit his selection policy. He's been a wee bit stuck with tighthead because Nel is comfortably better than the rest, but Sutherland and Dell at loosehead and McInally and Turner at hooker really ought to have featured more. That's a talented quartet and all SQ to boot.

Should have been playing Berghan a lot more, he's looked more than capable of being Nel's understudy any time he's played. In fact I think, if he had got games this season, that Berghan would probably be in the reckoning for the Scotland tour, Solly hasn't done him any favours at all.

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