We Go Again! The Premier League thread

[Dolphin Ziggler]

First topic message reminder :

I'm shocked!

[compelling and rich]

not the only one these days jerome, i know a fair few oldham fans out there none too happy about how corny is running the club. current ad state of affairs when you lose your manager (a former club player no less) to the division below

[Crimey]

Ronald Koeman on the verge of joining Everton.

Can't help but think that's at the very least a sideways move, if not backwards. Can only assume he's been offered more money by Everton than he has to spend at Southampton?

[Guest]

More of a slight nudge forward, for me. Once Stones or Lukaku have been sold, Tv Money & the new owner wanting to make his mark, can see Koeman having a vastly bigger budget to spend, than what he would of had at Southampton. I think the ceiling is higher at Everton, in all honesty.

[MIG]

Ronald Koeman on the verge of joining Everton.

Can't help but think that's at the very least a sideways move, if not backwards. Can only assume he's been offered more money by Everton than he has to spend at Southampton?

So two decent seasons for Southampton and two poor seasons for Everton under a clueless manager and suddenly Southampton are an equal or better club than Everton? Short sighted much?

[Guest]

He's a Liverpool fan, my view was unbiased & more accurate

[Crimey]

In this very moment, Southampton do seem to be rising ahead of Everton. I'd take more players from their squad I think than Everton's.

[Ent]

The new owner must be serious about spending some dough otherwise it's a bit of a sideways move.

[GSC]

Southampton have accepted their place in the pecking order and are content. New owner wants to push Everton on. Some building blocks in place still.

[Ent]

What does pushing on entail for Everton?

Top 4? Going to need huge investment for that given the cash rich nature of pl now.

[MIG]

I only see Forster, van Dijk and Mane clearly getting into the Everton starting 11.

[Ent]

Really?

They came 6th in the league where Everton came 11th.

Though Everton had the best of the head to heads.

[Good Golly I'm Olly]

I only see Forster, van Dijk and Mane clearly getting into the Everton starting 11.

Wanyama walks into that Everton team too

[Crimey]

Combined XI:

Lukaku

Tadic ---------Mane--------Deulofeu 

McCarthy ----Wanyama

Bertrand - - Fonte - - Van Djik - - Coleman

Forster

Which is an 7-4 split in Southampton's favour for me. 

[MIG]

Its 7-4 actually.
At the very least I would say Tadic and Mirallas are on a par, as well as Bertrand and Baines, Fonte and Jagielka.

[GSC]

Really?

They came 6th in the league where Everton came 11th.

Though Everton had the best of the head to heads.

Everton had a cack season and sacked their manager as a result, Southampton realistically continue to overachieve given they sell their best players every summer

[Ent]

Really?

They came 6th in the league where Everton came 11th.

Though Everton had the best of the head to heads.

Everton had a cack season and sacked their manager as a result, Southampton realistically continue to overachieve given they sell their best players every summer

True, not sure how it effects how many Southampton players would get in Everton side and vice versa.

[GSC]

A year ago Stones would be a shoe in. Forster had a torn ACL as well I guess.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Everton are not a big side. Sick of Everton fans thinking they deserve to be above Southampton and West Ham.

What is Koeman's objective at Everton? I'd imagine it's to get them around sixth and in Europe. Where Southampton are. With a better base squad.

[GSC]

Id still have them as the biggest club outside of the title contenders.

As I've said, 6th place for Southampton is overachieving realistically. Which is a tribute in itself to the work they've done. But you cant keep selling your best players an expect that trend to continue. Same reason Pochettino left for Spurs, presumably Evertons new owner is going to bring serious investment to try and move the club forward.

[Crimey]

Everton and Southampton are basically the same in my view. Maybe if Everton put in significant investment over the next two years then they will overtake Southampton, but I still can't see them being much better. Southampton don't look like they will be selling their best players this year, whereas Everton will most likely lose Lukaku.

[Ent]

To turn Everton into a top 4 side it will require a man city or Chelsea style investment.

Just can't see that happening and everyone else has money now so won't sell their best players cheap.

[Atila]

Can't see how Southampton FC are considered the equal of Everton FC. Right now they have a better team but that's it. If Leicester win the title again next season are we then supposed to consider them to be bigger than Spurs?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Its modern football. I am 27, I have seen one Everton side that was any good and the whole time they were plucky underdogs who punched above their weight. Their football was about spoiling the party and getting in amongst it. 

Villa and Leeds are not bigger clubs than Southampton either, its how things move. Everton cannot get players over us, have less prospects than us. All theyve managed to do is not sink after swimming.

[MIG]

Southampton have just achieved their best league finish since 1985. The year Everton won the league. Something Southampton have never done.
Everton have just sold 31,000 season tickets. Southampton's capacity is 32,000.

Southampton are currently playing better football than Everton, does not mean they are a bigger club. There is so much more to it than league placings when you talk about big clubs.

West Ham may be have been more of an attraction in the last year or two but we will see if that continues with Everton's new investment.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

There is, but theres also the fact Everton are not one. They have history, but no modern history now, and live in the shadow of Liverpool. 

Everton could well have done a Villa without Lukaku this year. Theres a hard market to shop in now, and Everton are coming from behind.

[Atila]

Historically, I would say that Villa and Leeds are bigger than Southampton. Villa and Leeds have twenty five major honours between them while Southampton have one, the same as Coventry, Wimbledon, Cardiff City, Barnsley etc. I think Portsmouth have also won more honours than Southampton. Southampton were in the Football League division one just a few seasons ago. Are they really now bigger than a club like Everton who have nine titles, multiple FA Cup wins and a European trophy just because they've managed to have a couple of decent seasons?

Anyway, I'm just rambling now because I really don't care that much who is bigger. But if I was a multi millionaire who wanted to invest in a club, I would go for Everton as I think there's a better chance of attracting big crowds and big players.

[Crimey]

Newcastle are a bigger club than Southampton using your reasoning, but I'd question if Koeman was leaving Southampton for them as well.

[Atila]

Newcastle are a bigger club than Southampton using your reasoning, but I'd question if Koeman was leaving Southampton for them as well.

Yes they are.

It will take more than one year out of the Prem for them to fall behind Southampton.

Are Bournemouth now bigger than Newcastle because they're still in the Prem while Newcastle are not? I doubt it. Things can change but I don't think it's changed for Southampton that much after two seasons.

[MIG]

What modern history do Southampton have that make them bigger then? Finishing 6th and 7th? Everton finished 5th the season before. 4th in 2005 when no one thought anyone could break the so called big four.
Southampton have only ever won 1 FA Cup in 1976. Everton last won that in 1995 (5 times total).

Without Lukaku Everton COULD have done a Villa? Everton have been in the top flight for 113 years and only spent 4 years in their history in the second tier. Outweighs any could's or if's imo.

[Crimey]

Newcastle are a bigger club than Southampton using your reasoning, but I'd question if Koeman was leaving Southampton for them as well.

Yes they are.

It will take more than one year out of the Prem for them to fall behind Southampton.

Are Bournemouth now bigger than Newcastle because they're still in the Prem while Newcastle are not? I doubt it. Things can change but I don't think it's changed for Southampton that much after two seasons.

Yes, but the point is we're looking at the respective positions of the clubs within the context of Ronald Koeman moving. I don't really care where clubs fall arbitrarily on this "big" metre. I think it would be odd for Koeman to leave Southampton for Everton at this stage, as they have very similar fortunes. I expected Koeman to wait to leave Southampton for a much bigger position.

[westisbest]

Its modern football. I am 27, I have seen one Everton side that was any good and the whole time they were plucky underdogs who punched above their weight. Their football was about spoiling the party and getting in amongst it. 

Villa and Leeds are not bigger clubs than Southampton either, its how things move. Everton cannot get players over us, have less prospects than us. All theyve managed to do is not sink after swimming.

We are a bigger club than Saints Dolph.
What do you base a bigger club on?

For me it's:

Fan base
Stadium
Training facilities
Could even say trophies won

Know a lot of saints fans who would say we are bigger than them.

Sadly we are a lot worse.

[MIG]

Newcastle are a bigger club than Southampton using your reasoning, but I'd question if Koeman was leaving Southampton for them as well.

Yes they are.

It will take more than one year out of the Prem for them to fall behind Southampton.

Are Bournemouth now bigger than Newcastle because they're still in the Prem while Newcastle are not? I doubt it. Things can change but I don't think it's changed for Southampton that much after two seasons.

Yes, but the point is we're looking at the respective positions of the clubs within the context of Ronald Koeman moving. I don't really care where clubs fall arbitrarily on this "big" metre. I think it would be odd for Koeman to leave Southampton for Everton at this stage, as they have very similar fortunes. I expected Koeman to wait to leave Southampton for a much bigger position.

All depends on what Moshiri is promising in investments and ambitions. No one really knows Everton's fortunes at this stage apart from him and I would assume he would share this information with potential candidates.

[GSC]

The point is more 6th for Southampton is really a glass ceiling without significant investment. Everton are offering that. Making a comparison to a club in a lower division isnt really all that relevant

[Crimey]

I just expected Koeman to move onto something significantly bigger than Southampton. Everton just seems like such a pointless move for him at this stage.

[MIG]

He may not even move yet. If he does I see no reason why he won't stay for 2-3 seasons then go to Arsenal when Wenger leaves.

[Hero]

On the reasoning that current standings outweigh history etc: Are Leicester currently bigger than Man Utd?

[Crimey]

On the reasoning that current standings outweigh history etc: Are Leicester currently bigger than Man Utd?

No.

[Guest]

I just expected Koeman to move onto something significantly bigger than Southampton. Everton just seems like such a pointless move for him at this stage.

Something significantly bigger than Southampton, after finishing sixth, is a top 4 job or a team elsewhere in Europe, in the Champions League. They just aren't available. Benitez ended up at Newcastle, as nothing else was around or remotely appealing to him. Koeman was never linked or even remotely being discussed as a potential manager for United, Man City or Chelsea. Everton is a step-up, for me. Much higher ceiling & huge budget to spend. He's taken Southampton as far as he can go now, the thing with management is you have to know when to move on, the top managers are brilliant at it. Will be tough to keep Southampton in sixth next year, whereas taking on an Everton side with money to spend, who have had a poor season, would appeal to me & by transforming them back up the table, would enhance his reputation more, than stagnating or going backwards with Southampton, which will occur, seeing as Chelsea, Liverpool & United types will be charging next season.

[Crimey]

I just expected Koeman to move onto something significantly bigger than Southampton. Everton just seems like such a pointless move for him at this stage.

Something significantly bigger than Southampton, after finishing sixth, is a top 4 job or a team elsewhere in Europe, in the Champions League. They just aren't available. Benitez ended up at Newcastle, as nothing else was around or remotely appealing to him. Koeman was never linked or even remotely being discussed as a potential manager for United, Man City or Chelsea. Everton is a step-up, for me. Much higher ceiling & huge budget to spend. He's taken Southampton as far as he can go now, the thing with management is you have to know when to move on, the top managers are brilliant at it. Will be tough to keep Southampton in sixth next year, whereas taking on an Everton side with money to spend, who have had a poor season, would appeal to me & by transforming them back up the table, would enhance his reputation more, than stagnating or going backwards with Southampton, which will occur, seeing as Chelsea, Liverpool & United types will be charging next season.

But sixth is probably the ceiling for Everton too. I'd just think staying at Southampton for the next couple of years would look better than moving to Everton now. Reported transfer kitty is £100 million, which in context of the TV deal and what the top 5-6 teams have to spend isn't a particularly big budget.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Can't make a point on here without it being bastardised. Frankly, modern day results eventually have to take a precedent. Villa are no longer a bigger club than Southampton. They're a shambles, you have to have prospects to be a big club.

Everton are not a big club. Neither are Southampton, but as a manager why go sideways? Everton finished 11th and have a worse squad than Southampton, no Europe and their ambitions are to match Southampton. If Koeman leaves Everton in 2-3 years they'll have judged success on being around 5th-8th with cup runs. Whereas he could enjoy that now with Southampton with less risk of instability and get a move possibly sooner.

The question is why would Koeman go from Southampton to Everton; the answer is basically money.

And the Leicester point? My point about 30 years seems to have little comparison to one year. But if in 5 years they are still in the champions league and Man United are still floundering then arguably they are a better prospect to manage. The "big club" debate is largely pointless in that respect, it's about prospects.

[MIG]

Are West Ham a big club?

[Dolphin Ziggler]

No. Sadly. Potentially but no.

Arguably this is about semantics. Traditional big club probably isn't as much what I mean.

[Ent]

The biggest of all.

[MIG]

One of your first comments was that you were sick of Everton fans thinking they deserve to be above Southampton and West Ham. I don't know one fan that thinks they deserve to be but they all think they should be aiming to be. Nothing wrong with that.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

Gonna pretend to be unbiased Ent? Even me and Crimey aren't buying that in a month of Milners

[Dolphin Ziggler]

One of your first comments was that you were sick of Everton fans  thinking they deserve to be above Southampton and West Ham. I don't know one fan that thinks they deserve to be but they all think they should be aiming to be. Nothing wrong with that.

Nothing wrong with aiming, but I think some believe that Everton are bigger and deserve more. Might be fuelled by the one I know who does think that though!

[westisbest]

So are we now a small club Dolph because we have had a shambolic season and are in a division lower?

I've stated a few things that I would associate a big club to.

We are no longer a better team than saints, but are certainly bigger.

If you can't see it, then that's fine.

[Dolphin Ziggler]

I don't think you're small, but you're not big.

[westisbest]

You been talking to my wife

[Dolphin Ziggler]

The whole of Bournemouth saw you streaking when Shane Long scored against the Germans

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