Political round up.............

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Unions are like cops....Everyone hates them until they need one..

Azzy wrote:I am moving out of London if Sadiq Khan becomes Mayor. I would gladly have paid for more votes, if you could buy such a privilege.

Ta ra mate.

ShahenshahG wrote:

Azzy wrote:I am moving out of London if Sadiq Khan becomes Mayor. I would gladly have paid for more votes, if you could buy such a privilege.

Ta ra mate.

Luckily I've already been looking at properties. I just can't imagine living in a city run by such an appalling man. The guy has less policies than Donald Trump, dodgier mates than David Cameron, and all the political qualities of a Monster Raving Loony Party candidate.

Admittedly the field was atrocious - worst candidates ever for any election - but this is going to be a disaster for London.

GSC wrote:Given the 2016 DC and co have had, hugely disappointing from Labour.

Yup. And it all points to an anal fisting for LAB when it comes to the GE in 2020. At this point in time the Tories could pretty much implode completely and Corbyn will still be completely an utterely unable to reach out to anyone beyond the left wing loonies.

If he makes it to 2020 then LAB will be destroyed. He is one of the most selfish, ignorant party leaders you could ever wish to have bestowed upon your party. He isn't leading, he's simply using a rather public platform to stick his communist little weener so far up his own parties arse for his own porn project of spouting such left wing nonsense that it makes Sanders look like he's taking the center ground.

Someone who is so anti-business, so anti-aspiration, so anti-working-hard-to-make-something-of-yourself that it makes me want to write a stongly worded letter to him.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:UKIP. I'm a bit surprised they haven't done better TBH. They've had some good results, but as the only (reasonably main) party backing Leave I honestly thought they'd make more gains than they have done. Decent breakthrough in Wales, and a few gains in England, and I know the system rather works against them, but still... Will be interesting to see what happens to them after the Referendum: if the vote is to Remain, they could go into the wilderness, but it's not impossible the resentment of those wanting to Leave would benefit them (similarly to the SNP - albeit different situations).

UKIP have hit expectations and no more than that. They're nibbling, rather than eating, into the Labour vote, bit-by-bit.

Plaid had the second most seats in Wales and those stupid UKIP voters finally did something worthy and kept Labour from getting a majority

This now means the incompetent Red Brigade will have to form a coalition with Plaid

Lib Dem has one seat in 60

Tories in Wales declining again

Overall a good election in Wales

Duty281 wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:UKIP. I'm a bit surprised they haven't done better TBH. They've had some good results, but as the only (reasonably main) party backing Leave I honestly thought they'd make more gains than they have done. Decent breakthrough in Wales, and a few gains in England, and I know the system rather works against them, but still... Will be interesting to see what happens to them after the Referendum: if the vote is to Remain, they could go into the wilderness, but it's not impossible the resentment of those wanting to Leave would benefit them (similarly to the SNP - albeit different situations).

UKIP have hit expectations and no more than that. They're nibbling, rather than eating, into the Labour vote, bit-by-bit.

To that I would add - Rome wasn't built in a day. New parties have to work for many years to establish themselves and grow gradually - UKIP are no different here.

Azzy wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Azzy wrote:I am moving out of London if Sadiq Khan becomes Mayor. I would gladly have paid for more votes, if you could buy such a privilege.

Ta ra mate.

Luckily I've already been looking at properties. I just can't imagine living in a city run by such an appalling man. The guy has less policies than Donald Trump, dodgier mates than David Cameron, and all the political qualities of a Monster Raving Loony Party candidate.

Admittedly the field was atrocious - worst candidates ever for any election - but this is going to be a disaster for London.

I doubt the mayor even has enough power to affect your life too much other than a little bit of inconvenience. Think you're being a bit whiny for no real reason. Anyway, St Albans and Radlett are a bit pricey if youre looking to live outside London but work in it. In luton all the drugs prozzies and violence has moved away from the centre to Hitchin. Just a thought

ShahenshahG wrote:

Azzy wrote:

ShahenshahG wrote:

Azzy wrote:I am moving out of London if Sadiq Khan becomes Mayor. I would gladly have paid for more votes, if you could buy such a privilege.

Ta ra mate.

Luckily I've already been looking at properties. I just can't imagine living in a city run by such an appalling man. The guy has less policies than Donald Trump, dodgier mates than David Cameron, and all the political qualities of a Monster Raving Loony Party candidate.

Admittedly the field was atrocious - worst candidates ever for any election - but this is going to be a disaster for London.

I doubt the mayor even has enough power to affect your life too much other than a little bit of inconvenience. Think you're being a bit whiny for no real reason. Anyway, St Albans and Radlett are a bit pricey if youre looking to live outside London but work in it. In luton all the drugs prozzies and violence has moved away from the centre to   Hitchin. Just a thought

Haha

I used to run a pub just outside Hitchin, we had a local drugs gang as our best customers. They'd regularly take things of value and replace them with lesser value items - but what could you do?

Planning on moving further away, not commuting. I'd rather cut my legs off and claim benefits than use public transport.

Coxy001 wrote:

GSC wrote:Given the 2016 DC and co have had, hugely disappointing from Labour.

Yup. And it all points to an anal fisting for LAB when it comes to the GE in 2020. At this point in time the Tories could pretty much implode completely and Corbyn will still be completely an utterely unable to reach out to anyone beyond the left wing loonies.

If he makes it to 2020 then LAB will be destroyed. He is one of the most selfish, ignorant party leaders you could ever wish to have bestowed upon your party. He isn't leading, he's simply using a rather public platform to stick his communist little weener so far up his own parties arse for his own porn project of spouting such left wing nonsense that it makes Sanders look like he's taking the center ground.

Someone who is so anti-business, so anti-aspiration, so anti-working-hard-to-make-something-of-yourself that it makes me want to write a stongly worded letter to him.

You never know, he might read it on PMQs

Of course, the most interesting political story of this year could be this:

@BBCDanielS
UPDATE At least EIGHT police forces are actively investigating Conservative election expenses from the 2015 General Election

Government has also made a nice U-Turn on its disastrous academies plan.

Is it me or does Nikki Morgan look like a plump George Osborne in drag?

Duty281 wrote:Of course, the most interesting political story of this year could be this:

@BBCDanielS
UPDATE At least EIGHT police forces are actively investigating Conservative election expenses from the 2015 General Election

There's between 26-28 involved mate

Pr4wn wrote:Government has also made a nice U-Turn on its disastrous academies plan.

Is it me or does Nikki Morgan look like a plump George Osborne in drag?

She looks like his sister from an incestuous marriage

Very good news. They're morons and backing down won't see me forgive nor forget, but it's good for schools

The results today scream out how much the political landscape has changed now.

Back in the 60s and 70s the make-up of parliament was normally 90% Tory/Labour around 8% Liberals and 2% the rest. Boy that has changed. Nowadays the Tory/Labour share is now around 67% with around 10% Lib Dems and now almost 25% the rest.

Labour have been obliterated in Scotland and whilst that is the case their chances of ever getting back into Westminster to form a majority government is mighty slim. Even if the voting today was replicated at a general election the Tories would have not got past the winning line at Westminster just two elections after they had to form a coalition. I see the BBC posted an article today musing it is 'As You Were' and that the Tories can't pat themselves on the back as they had no great gains in the UK despite Labour seemingly in disarray and people voted for them merely because there wasn't a better option for them.

I'm sure if voting wasn't so tribal for people then things would have changed more.

GSC wrote:Given the 2016 DC and co have had, hugely disappointing from Labour.

Could not agree more, in the last few months the Conservatives have had pretty much civil war in the party over Europe, immigration targets they are so far away from actually achieving they have long since stopped even pretending they are trying, the benefits cuts and IDS's resignation, Jeremy Hunt's still unpopular battle with the doctors, the whiff of scandal over the Panama Papers hanging around and one of the most unpleasant candidates possible representing them in the London Mayoral elections and still Labour cannot make inroads. If they cannot do better than lose less than expected under such circumstances one does have to wonder what it would take for them to actually do so.

Does also pose the question how thoroughly unelectable does Corbyn have to prove he is before the more centrist elements of the party manage to produce a half way credible candidate. Difficult to remember a time there were two less inspiring major parties. Voting is now reduced to holding your nose, making a tick and clinging to the hope you have voted for the slightly less odious of the choices.

It's amazing how in England the press are accused of being pro-Tory yet in Wales newspapers like the Western Mail (Western Fail) are so pro-Labour it's unreal. Only earlier BBC Wales were grilling Leanne Wood on how Plaid did not have a good election even though other than UKIP they were the only party to gain seats plus stole the Labour stronghold area of Rhondda. She told the reporter where to go though. As for Westminister...Corbyn was always going to unelectable. Despite how loathable the Tories are I think they will be in power in England for a long time given how incompetent Labour leaders have been along with the stain Tony Blair left

Rowley wrote:

GSC wrote:Given the 2016 DC and co have had, hugely disappointing from Labour.

Could not agree more, in the last few months the Conservatives have had pretty much civil war in the party over Europe, immigration targets they are so far away from actually achieving they have long since stopped even pretending they are trying, the benefits cuts and IDS's resignation, Jeremy Hunt's still unpopular battle with the doctors, the whiff of scandal over the Panama Papers hanging around and one of the most unpleasant candidates possible representing them in the London Mayoral elections and still Labour cannot make inroads. If they cannot do better than lose less than expected under such circumstances one does have to wonder what it would take for them to actually do so.

Does also pose the question how thoroughly unelectable does Corbyn have to prove he is before the more centrist elements of the party manage to produce a half way credible candidate. Difficult to remember a time there were two less inspiring major parties. Voting is now reduced to holding your nose, making a tick and clinging to the hope you have voted for the slightly less odious of the choices.

Is it really just about Corbyn though? You are missing the glaring fact - Labour's obliteration in Scotland. At one time Scotlamd was a Labour stronghold but not anymore - they are now Scotland's third party. Their fall from grace is nothing at all to do with Corbyn. It is the damage done by his predecessors (Blair and Brown particularly) and their rudderless direction as a party in Scotland. They have hummed and hawed on where they sit on independence and other key issues whereas the Tories have been more straight-forward and forthright and so have hoovered up a heck of a lot of disenchanted Labour voters who are staunch unionists. Like I said earlier I cannot see Labour ever being able to govern in Westminster until they recover in Scotland as they just do not have enough cast iron certain seats anymore.


Even after the last GE, Westminster-based old Labour hands were seeing the problem. Scottish Labour needs to re-invent itself and cut its ties with Labour. People will only vote for a party only interested in what his best for Scotland - not voting Westminster issues through to tow the party line ignoring what those that voted them in want. To a degree Scottish Conservative have done this and are reaping the rewards for it.

Craig, what are your thoughts on the Kezia Dugdale situation? It's a massively damaging result for Scottish Labour, but they surely can't keep changing leader every year either.

Duggdale has to be given more time but also she has to be brave and make big strides within the party and shake things up. She has to create a fresh image for Scottish Labour by stating clearly what Labour's thoughts are on Independence and on running of Scotland. They also must cut the strings to the Westminster party and be seen to be totally committed to only interested in what is best for Scots and Scotland instead of being seen as voting for whatever big brother wants at Westminster regardless of how it impacts Scotland. Do all that and there is hope for Scottish Labour.

I don't think its all Corbyn (directly), the infighting from those who want him to stay, and those who want him gone hasn't helped either. But the solution to that again is for Corbyn to step down. He needed a big win to convince those voices to quieten down and they fell miles short of that.

But Corbyns really failed to put Cameron under any kind of pressure throughout any of blows the Conservatives have taken in 2016. Ignoring Scotland, the results "not being as bad as expected" when par is probably making big gains, is a pretty poor result.

GSC wrote:Ignoring Scotland, the results "not being as bad as expected" when par is probably making big gains, is a pretty poor result.

No that is a wrong attitude for Labour to take. For many years Scotland was a hotbed full of Labour MP's and cast-iron seats but not anymore. As long as that situation remains Labour have no hope of getting back into power at Westminster. They need to address that issue - pronto or their decay will continue. To some degree the same thing is happening now in an embryonic stage in England with UKIP beginning to gain traction. Labour have to act to address these matters and be more clear/strong/channelled in their policies and visions for the future. At present they are living in the past (not really Corbyn's fault - it is a party issue).

It's not the wrong attitude to take when his initial point was about Labour's inability to take advantage of recent Tory woes. Scotland is an issue quite apart from that.

Rowley wrote:It's not the wrong attitude to take when his initial point was about Labour's inability to take advantage of recent Tory woes. Scotland is an issue quite apart from that.

Well it depends on what we are talking about doesn't it?

If it is merely about this election's results and thinking binning Corbyn will solve the problems and send Labour back on the road to Downing Street - it won't. Labour's end goal will always be returning to Westminster and as things stand right now with regards to their obliteration in Scotland then a return to Westminster isn't happening.

If we are merely talking of Corbyn being binned because of Labour's results across the UK then were they any worse than at the general election last year under a different leader? Constant leader change (like football with managers) is not the way to fix problems. I'd say give Corbyn until after the next election and if he hasn't started rebuilding moral, support and confidence then it would then be time to show him the door. Another thing on the must to do list for him is to cut the strings with Scottish Labour.

Well quite clearly he was talking about labours inability to make any inroads despite this being a difficult time for the Tories, as indeed was I when you accused me of missing the glaring point and brought up Scotland.

Rowley wrote:Well quite clearly he was talking about labours inability to make any inroads despite this being a difficult time for the Tories, as indeed was I when you accused me of missing the glaring point and brought up Scotland.

Look at the political system for the answer to that question then? As in what are voters options if they are not enamoured by Labour and they want their vote to count - step forward the only viable alternative (currently) which is the Tories. Many still find UKIP's views too radical to vote for.

Also what is the make-up of the Labour vote? I know Tony Blair's Labour coaxed a lot of disenchanted former Tory voters to vote for them well perhaps (certainly in England) and those have now probably rejoined the Tories given that Corbyn's stance is seen to be more to the left.

Rowley wrote:labours inability to make any inroads despite this being a difficult time for the Tories

To be fair though, Labour are still going to finish up with hundreds more council seats than the Tories, since last time these seats were up Miliband did exactly what people say Corbyn had to do.

I feel for Corbyn, I really do.

Elected as leader with an honest vision, he's been undermined at every stage of his tenure. It's not about him stepping down, for me. It's about the Blairites accepting the will of the rest of the party and uniting behind him. The infighting is becoming ridiculous and losses will be permanent if they don't sort things out.

Think about it this way. If Labour were to hold another leadership ballot tomorrow, Corbyn would certainly win again.

At the same time, I can certainly see why they'd want shot of him. Hes done a poor job with several gifts dropped in his lap by the Tories.

My point stands though. He could have made so much more of those gifts had the party been behind him.

Others' attitudes have left him neutered.

To be honest, I don't see how that makes a massive difference in that regard. Hes hardly getting heckled by his own benches when he gets 6 chances to grill DC on why a senior minister quit days after a budget. He comes across as way out his depth when he goes against DC

On a side note, I think the Speaker needs to be a bit more strict with DC during PMQs.

They're called questions for a reason, they need to be answered. It's no good DC coming back with a snide remark about Labour without answering the question.

Pr4wn wrote:I feel for Corbyn, I really do.

Elected as leader with an honest vision, he's been undermined at every stage of his tenure. It's not about him stepping down, for me. It's about the Blairites accepting the will of the rest of the party and uniting behind him. The infighting is becoming ridiculous and losses will be permanent if they don't sort things out.

Think about it this way. If Labour were to hold another leadership ballot tomorrow, Corbyn would certainly win again.

What is his vision, out of curiosity? I've heard plenty of soundbites - "A fairer Britain;" "Labour is on your side" etc." - but what are his actual policies and ideas?

The only ones I've heard about are the National Education Service (which hasn't been properly elaborated), and re-nationalising some public services like the railways (which you can't do as a member of the EU, anyway).

GSC wrote:At the same time, I can certainly see why they'd want shot of him. Hes done a poor job with several gifts dropped in his lap by the Tories.

He does a poor job in 'conventional' terms... in terms of what the political and the political-watching class would deem as poor.  He doesn't play the Parliamentary game of bombast and have a plethora of prepared 'ad-lib' quips that have been written weeks in advance.  He doesn't use the old and boring hand gestures that most ambitious politicians feel they have to engage in these days and he doesn't perfect speeches like a histrionic Shakespearean actor.

So I'd say the college educated, suit-smart, Pretend-Labour, crisp-n'clipped, posh'n'proper Labour(ish) party members are simply embarrassed by his lack of Etonian-sleek rather than by his ideas or principles.

It's the same the world over - the conventional historic 'Left' that often calls itself 'Labour' have been exposed as nothing but charlatans, who process themselves through the same channels of pomp and privilege as the 'Conservative' elite; who talk 'for' the poor and lower middle class in language that bores the poor and lower middle class, and that the poor and lower middle class seldom listen to; and that are as obsessive about the cold and useless staginess of Parliamentary etiquette as their regal and regalia festooned Conservative opponents.

It hardly matters what Corbyn looks like or sounds like, he'd still be a lot more popular with 'real' people who seldom watch the Westminster Theatre Show than many of his uptight and "Hear Hear! party colleagues.  

But of course, Corbyn's party enemies are most concerned by that simple fact.... the fact that if this guy stays in power, he'll have too many commoners joining them!  "We've gotten away from that coal-blackened lot and now he wants to drag us back into their horrid villages and estates again!"

ShahenshahG wrote:

Azzy wrote:I am moving out of London if Sadiq Khan becomes Mayor. I would gladly have paid for more votes, if you could buy such a privilege.

Ta ra mate.

Lol

Duty281 wrote:@PickardJE
One source suggests turnout in London of just 12 per cent as of 4pm: if true, could be heading for a record mayoral low.

If true, good Lord!

Turnout was 45%. Would have been higher if Barnet hadn't screwed up.

Your 'source' is clealy a crack pot (not surprising).

CaledonianCraig wrote:Conservatives now the go to party for unionist voters in Scotland. They hoovered up disenchanted Labour voters as Labour continue to sit on the fence on too many policies.

Exactly. Proves that votes in Scotland are totally polarised around independence/nationalism.

Mad for Chelsea wrote:Some quick thoughts.

The media/pollsters have called it desperately wrong again! Yesterday there was talk that Labour would lose anything from 150 to 200 seats in the local England councils. At the time of writing, they've lost (net) a grand total of... 6. After calling last year's GE wrong where they overestimated the Labour vote, have the pollsters gone too far the other way? Is the media bubble - overwhelmingly hostile to Corbyn - overclouding their judgement? Possibly.

Source?

Don't remember any credible pollsters predicting a bloodbath. Just that there was a risk Labour could potentially lose a fair bit.

Given the Tory's have spent the last 12 months screwing all but about 2% of the country and their approval ratings are through the floor, anything other than gains reflects v poorly on Labour.

Part of the reason people weren't backing Tories in 2015 (this argument being lifted straight from a vocal left-liberal poster on this forum) was because the view was Gordon Brown's Labour were such an absolute shocker that a loss was inevitable - and if the Tory's couldn't walk a majority then how could they in 2015??

Rowley wrote:

GSC wrote:Given the 2016 DC and co have had, hugely disappointing from Labour.

Could not agree more, in the last few months the Conservatives have had pretty much civil war in the party over Europe, immigration targets they are so far away from actually achieving they have long since stopped even pretending they are trying, the benefits cuts and IDS's resignation, Jeremy Hunt's still unpopular battle with the doctors, the whiff of scandal over the Panama Papers hanging around and one of the most unpleasant candidates possible representing them in the London Mayoral elections and still Labour cannot make inroads. If they cannot do better than lose less than expected under such circumstances one does have to wonder what it would take for them to actually do so.

Does also pose the question how thoroughly unelectable does Corbyn have to prove he is before the more centrist elements of the party manage to produce a half way credible candidate. Difficult to remember a time there were two less inspiring major parties. Voting is now reduced to holding your nose, making a tick and clinging to the hope you have voted for the slightly less odious of the choices.

Wow, didn't expect that.

I fully agree with Rowley.

Didn't expect that either.....

Lowlandbrit wrote:

Rowley wrote:labours inability to make any inroads despite this being a difficult time for the Tories

To be fair though, Labour are still going to finish up with hundreds more council seats than the Tories, since last time these seats were up Miliband did exactly what people say Corbyn had to do.

Council seats are nothing to celebrate if you can't turn them into Parliament seats.....

Pr4wn wrote:My point stands though. He could have made so much more of those gifts had the party been behind him.

Others' attitudes have left him neutered.

Or maybe those others' attitudes are focussed on the bigger picture - what's needed to win GE2020 - not appealing to an overly vocal unrepresentative minority.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:@PickardJE
One source suggests turnout in London of just 12 per cent as of 4pm: if true, could be heading for a record mayoral low.

If true, good Lord!

Turnout was 45%. Would have been higher if Barnet hadn't screwed up.

Your 'source' is clealy a crack pot (not surprising).

Well I did read it on the Guardian website!

Corbyn isn't going to get the chance to prove himself.....

It'll be a compromise.....Rather than a Blairite coup it will be someone like Lisa Nandy taking over....A leftish working class arse kicker....

TopHat24/7 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Conservatives now the go to party for unionist voters in Scotland. They hoovered up disenchanted Labour voters as Labour continue to sit on the fence on too many policies.

Exactly. Proves that votes in Scotland are totally polarised around independence/nationalism.

So can you enlighten me as to when this explosion of nationalism came from bearing in mind the SNP were basically nowhere a couple of decades ago? Such an explosion has to have been caused by something. Totally Tory failure in the 80s? Labour lies in the 90s? Has to be a reason so I await your theory.

Enjoy it while it lasts..

CaledonianCraig wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Conservatives now the go to party for unionist voters in Scotland. They hoovered up disenchanted Labour voters as Labour continue to sit on the fence on too many policies.

Exactly. Proves that votes in Scotland are totally polarised around independence/nationalism.

So can you enlighten me as to when this explosion of nationalism came from bearing in mind the SNP were basically nowhere a couple of decades ago? Such an explosion has to have been caused by something. Totally Tory failure in the 80s? Labour lies in the 90s? Has to be a reason so I await your theory.

Never said those weren't REASONS for the nationalism, just that nationalism (and the general ignorance that goes with it) was what's driving the voting north of the border.

My question remains though. What so stirred this nationalist uprising? After all the SNP had a mere handful of MP'S 20 to 25 years ago so what has so stirred those emotions to bring about this situation where SNP are by far the biggest party represented in Scottish Parliament.

What stirred it up?

Granting Scots a referendum rather than telling them to get back in their box and continue to enjoy the luxurious trappings of the Barnett Formula and maybe a few more token devolved powers.