County Championship Division 1 - Yorkshire v Surrey

First topic message reminder :

Venue: Headingley, Leeds
Date: Sunday 8th - Wednesday 11th May

Umpires

Steve Garratt
Alex Wharf


Form

Yorkshire - P3, D3

Reigning champions are a side bang out of form atm. To win early season matches you need runs from the top order and wickets from the seamers. Yorkshire have managed neither. As with last season first innings scores are being rescued by the middle and lower order. Lees hit form at Trent Bridge, but the main run scorers otherwise have been Bairstow (5), Rashid (7), Plunkett (8) 7 Patterson (10). UInliek last season the opening bowlers are not coming to the rescue - highlighted by the spinners taking more wickets than the opening bowlers.


Surrey - P3, D2, L1

Reigning Second div champs, Surrey have, a wobble in the first innings of the season apart, been providing runs. Their issue has been the bowlers (Rampaul apart) aping the Yorkies and struggling for form.


Squads

Yorkshire:
Bairstow (Wicketkeeper), Ballance, Brooks, Gale (Captain), Lees, Lyth, Patterson, Plunkett, Rashid, Rhodes, Root, Willey, Wainman

Surrey:
Gareth Batty (capt), James Burke, Rory Burns, Tom Curran, Steven Davies, Matthew Dunn, Ben Foakes, Arun Harinath, Mathew Pillans, Ravi Rampaul, Jason Roy, Kumar Sangakkara, Gary Wilson

Potential Milestones:

AU Rashid needs 80 runs to reach 6000 runs in First-class matches.
JA Brooks needs 1 wickets to reach 100 wickets in First-class matches at Leeds.
SA Patterson needs 9 wickets to reach 300 wickets in First-class matches.

GJ Batty needs 11 wickets to reach 600 wickets in First-class matches.
R Rampaul need 4 wickets to reach 200 wickets in First-class matches.

VTR wrote:Ravi Rampaul is bringing a whole new meaning to the term "buffet bowler"!

Definitely has a bit of a golden arm at the moment

Health warning first - my father is the worst sort of Yorkshireman, born and raised in Walthamstow he chose to become a Yorkie when he married my mum.

Anyway having just spoken to him he is really impressed with Rampaul though feels he bowled a few too many four balls. Curran he said was threatening but perhaps just short of a yard of pace to bowl the back of a length style he adopted this morning. When discussing Dunn and Burke he made Lord Geoffrey of Boycott sound mild mannered. Safe to say he was not impressed by the change bowlers.

Hey Gareth - you're our freaking captain, how about you actually have some nuts and do your job??!

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Hey Gareth - you're our freaking captain, how about you actually have some nuts and do your job??!

I don't believe that is actually a quote from Arlott but it conveys the feelings of many Surrey supporters.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Hey Gareth - you're our freaking captain, how about you actually have some nuts and do your job??!

Unless Rampaul and Curran take quick wickets after the break he has to surely? Otherwise he will risk bowling his two main guys into the ground.


Should Batty even be in the team? I know Ansari is injured, real shame as England still need a spinner, but does Batty really bring enough leadership to make up for what seems to be a non-playing presence?

Follow on saved.

Batty does tend to bowl more in the second innings but I've been concerned with the lack of balance for some time. We could get away with it in Div Two but unlikely to at this higher level. We are not sufficiently strong as a team and he's certainly not a ''Brearley-type'' leader who can be carried at number 9 and not bowling enough.

To be fair to the Surrey attack, they are currently bowling to probably best combination of batsmen that any county team could have playing. Anyone playing Yorkshire from next week onwards will have things a bit easier!

VTR - I don't dispute at all what you say about Yorks' batting but imo that makes Batty choosing not to bowl himself all the more odd.

Can't disagree - I suppose there's a few reasons we don't see that many bowling captains and the fear of over-bowling or under-bowling oneself is one of them. No danger of Batty over-bowling himself of course!

Surrey have now conceded 36 boundaries in 40 overs.

Even allowing for the ability of Root and Bairstow (and I acknowledge my comments are slanted towards my team and so haven't given that pair sufficient credit), that's awful from Surrey in the opposition's first innings of a Championship match.

Curran and Rampaul have now bowler 32 of 43 overs

Utter madness captaincy, utter utter madness. No wonder we have no seamers fit!!

Not to disagree with anything anyone else has said, but one quick note in favour of Batty's captaincy - last year he was instrumental in bringing on Ansari's bowling. He bowled him early for long spells, trusted him at key times and set sensible fields to him. I highly doubt that Ansari have been picked for the Test squad to tour the UAE without Batty as a captain. It doesn't negate any of the—justified—criticism that he has got this year, but important to remember that he's not all bad

Hardly anything between the teams atm. Yorks 261/3, don't forget Surrey were 264/4.

Batty is now bowling - 3 overs for 28 so far!!! What has happened to Dunn - he was being talked about for England a year or two back and now seems to be cannon-fodder?

James - I'm on record as saying Surrey will always be in debt to Gareth Batty and continue to stand by that. That was particularly in the aftermath of Tom Maynard's death when almost everyone else at the Club had the shakes and it looked as if we were going to hell in a handcart. He's also done further admirable work at other times, both on and off the pitch. Your flagging of him helping with Ansari's development is another good example.

I therefore don't want to make any of my criticism too personal and appear a slur on his character. However, as you also indicate, his captaincy - and particularly in this match - is leaving a lot to be desired imo. To his credit, he wouldn't expect his past record to prevent debate now and give him a free pass.

Centuries for Root and Bairstow - same again please in a week and a half!

Partnership of 258, and going, in over run-a-ball pace.

Duty281 wrote:Centuries for Root and Bairstow - same again please in a week and a half!

Partnership of 258, and going, in over run-a-ball pace.

An indication of the fickleness of sport that Yorkshire would have been 60-4 if Roy had held a very hard chance from Root.

Harinath's drop of Bairstow in the last 10 minutes probably less expensive.

LondonTiger wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Centuries for Root and Bairstow - same again please in a week and a half!

Partnership of 258, and going, in over run-a-ball pace.

An indication of the fickleness of sport that Yorkshire would have been 60-4 if Roy had held a very hard chance from Root.

Sounds like a bit of a Brad Haddin moment!

guildfordbat wrote:

guildfordbat wrote:Well, that's 2 already in the first half hour! Lyth and Ballance both gone to Ravioli! Think he's only 1 behind 'Ronnie' Barker now as the Division's leading wicket taker.

Important that the third and fourth bowlers this morning do a decent job. Both Dunn and Burke can be expensive.

Oh dear!! Worse than I feared. Burke 0/21 off his 2 overs including 4 boundaries. Dunn 0/14 off his first over with 3 boundaries, that was after Tom Curran bowled 8 on the reel this morning. Wouldn't be surprised to see Baron Harinath bowling some time today.

3 overs so far from Baron. 0/11, most economical of our 6 bowlers.

Surely this game is but a formality now, Yorkshire to win inside three days

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely this game is but a formality now, Yorkshire to win inside three days

Don't give up yet, Olly. First we need a local weather forecast from Tiger's dad. Please.

Good Golly I'm Olly wrote:Surely this game is but a formality now, Yorkshire to win inside three days

Rain, rain, rain, tomorrow and the day after, though it's sumptuous sunshine at the moment.

The partnership creaks past 320.

All credit to Baron Harinath for giving it a go and keeping things relatively quiet. Current figures of 9-1-33-0. However, a pretty desperate state of affairs to be relying so much on him as the sixth bowler.

Bairstow falls two short of a double hundred

Particularly given the weather forecast for the remaining 2 days (although not confirmed by Pops Tiger ), I wonder if Yorks might consider declaring tonight and sticking us back in for 5 or 6 overs until stumps.

All in all, probably not as (1) Yorks are likely to want a bigger lead; and (2) you can't base too much on the weather. However, still worth a thought imo ....

I don't think the weathers going to be as bad as Duty makes out; no rain predicted tomorrow until very late in the day but Wednesday could struggle to see any significant play

Yorkshire must have someone better than Gale in their squad? Leaning?

A really tough lesson in the step up between Div 2 and Div 1 today for our young side.

In Div 2 the tough chances can go down but stronger sides with more depth in their seam bowling tend to win out over the course of the season. Against the best in Div 1 the strength and depth of batting means that everything needs to be taken. That tough chance of Bairstow going down early is a cruel example of this.

I worry that our attack is lacking a yard of pace across the board right now. Rampaul has proven some doubters (including myself) wrong but is a seamer and a bit of trundler all things considered.

Matt Dunn seems to be well below his best at current. If he's going to spray things around he needs to take wickets whilst doing so. For Clive that threat came through his good pace from that strong shoulder action and his ability to hit the pitch hard creating bounce and seam movement. So far post injuries he seems to be struggling to hit the crease and pitch as hard so isn't creating much, it's a real issue at current.

Hopefully Sam Curran coming pack with a bit more nip about him will help. Whilst we don't know what we will get from Meaker when he returns that is another potential shot in the arm as well. Finally, Jade Dernbach, whilst someone who I have critiqued for his county championship performances for a few seasons, could also add some nice control and experience in tougher games such as this.

All that said though, Yorks at Headingley was unlikely to be a happy hunting ground this season!

Chin up, chaps - we have a bowling point

jimbohammers wrote:Yorkshire must have someone better than Gale in their squad? Leaning?

Leaning and Rhodes would be better. I was going to say he had been poor for a few seasons now, saved by captaincy (and you get the feeling the Yorkie lads would walk on hot coals for him), but checking last season he was actually one of only two batsmen to get over a 1000 runs in the championship for us.

Good Surrey overview (once more) by Carlos.

!0/10 for effort today to Rampaul and Harinath. However, something's wrong when you're having to get 25 overs and 3 wickets in the day - at almost 5 per over - from a trundling seamer who, as of a month ago, hadn't played a first class match in more than three years and 10 overs from a very occasional sixth bowler in an attempt to keep a lid on things.

Feel we also need to capitalise much more on our decent batting positions. I'm not alone in that view . Stewie was irked that we didn't get 500 plus with a couple of centuries first dig against Durham.

3 aims for tomorrow morning, the rest of day 3 and all of day 4:
1. Get the 6th wicket within 110 overs and thus a second bowling point;
2. Bat long; and
3. Rain.

Unfortunately if you give players of Bairstow/Root's quality even the slightest life, they can do that to you. Whilst I don't agree with some of Batty's captaincy (remember this day when Tom Curran goes down with a muscle injury later this season), you have to take your cap off to two fantastic innings especially coming in, in a tough situation at 45-3

Surrey have a mountain to climb if they are to save this game now

The options were limited, but no surprise at all that Dunn and Burke are expensive against the best attacking batsmen in the country. The weather should permit Yorks ample time to bowl Surrey out and win the game well inside the distance.  Subject to a further check on the forecast tomorrow, Yorks might well take the view that they don't need to bat much longer (think Burke or Dunn to Plunkett - maybe going for 16/18 an over for 40 mins)

Hurrah, the weather forecast seems to have improved.

Bash 100 runs in the opening hour, then declare.

Assuming the weather is fine and Yorks continue their innings, Ravi Rampaul needs two more wickets this morning to become the first Surrey player to take a fivefer in each of his first three matches. That would be a massive achievement in the history of the Club, founded as far back as 1845.

Rampaul is currently one of only three Surrey players to have taken a fivefer in their first two matches. The other two both did this in the nineteenth century.

Not bad going for a Kolpak who hadn't played a first class match in over three years before joining Surrey and whose signing was generally greeted with a lack of enthusiasm and some cynicism (including from me).

Roooooooooooooooot gets his double ton.

Absolute masterclass from Root.

Duty - is this in your part of the world? Weather forecast t'row? If it rains a lot then, we could still get off the hook.

Mind you, we'll still need to fully apply ourselves today when batting. That won't be easy having been fielding since Sunday evening and looking at a demoralising scoreboard.

Well I'm just down the road in Huddersfield. It'll rain this afternoon, have no fear.

Root gone for 213, masterful knock.

Duty281 wrote:Well I'm just down the road in Huddersfield. It'll rain this afternoon, have no fear.

Root gone for 213, masterful knock.

Thanks, Duty. That's good news for Surrey supporters. And tomorrow?

Touch and go, touch and go!

Congrats to Ravi Rampaul on his 200th first class wicket. Just 65 First Class games in 14 seasons!!!!

Thanks again, Duty. I see from cricinfo they're off for rain now.

Slim pickings but at least we got Root within the 110 overs for a second bowling point. If good batting and bad weather cause a draw, we'll get only 3 less points than Yorks.

Well, the forecast has changed a fair bit from yesterday with the rain making its way north much more quickly than had been expected....

Not currently raining - but who knows when/if play will resume.

Morning all. Great from an England perspective that Root and Bairstow are carrying on where they left off, though obviously less so for Surrey. I'm going to play devil's advocate here a little and defend Batty's captaincy, specifically his decision to hold himself back from the attack. The seamers had started well, with from reports some assistance for them, so it was logical to go with his change seamers first up. By the time they had been dispatches Root and Bairstow were set, and they are both very good players of spin, in Root's case the best in England by some margin (even more so since the sad events surrounding James Taylor). I can get bowling spin at them early, as in some cases it's harder to play yourself in against them, but once they're set and in such a positive frame of mind it's harder IMO. Add in the fact that it's Headingley, hardly conductive to finger spin success at the best of times, and that in early May it's still a long way from said "best of times"* and you can see where Batty was coming form IMO. Given his not particularly great figures once he did eventually have to bring himself on, I'm not sure how much difference it would have made in any case.

*This is one of the bigger problems with the County Championship schedule IMO. I saw on the other thread someone saying Rashid had outbowled Moeen so far this year, with guildford's (quite sensible) retort that 7 wickets at 46 is hardly screaming for inclusion. Problem is, with so much of the CC played before the end of May, it's increasingly difficult for spinners to have much of an impact, and therefore force their way into the reckoning. That doesn't mean I think Rashid should play on the back of his form so far mind.

Since I've veered a little off topic, Robson has hit another century for Middlesex, while Compton failed again. No-one really putting their hand up for that number 3 slot so far...

Afternoon, MfC - that's a particularly thoughtful post.

Totally agree with you about the County Championship schedule making it increasingly difficult for spinners to make much of an impact and also therefore for younger ones to develop. It seems very wrong to me that by tomorrow evening a quarter of this CC season will already be over.

As for Batty, let me firstly emphasis that I like the guy - this is covered more in my post of yesterday afternoon (3:14) above. However, I've always been concerned that his appointment of captain has created an imbalance in the side for this (busy) time of the season. We could largely get away with it in Division Two but, following promotion, don't appear to be doing so here where the level has clearly gone up a significant notch. That imbalance is more pronounced in the early games when Ansari is also playing and causes me to question the need for Batty's inclusion. Admittedly, that's not the situation here with Ansari being crocked but I think it's still a fair point to make.

I suppose the question largely boils down to - is Batty an appropriate player to be picked for the early season games? My answer is ''assuming Ansari can play, no'' or ''assuming Ansari can't play, yes but only if it's planned for him (Batty) to bowl sufficiently in both innings''.

I think you make a decent case for Batty's reluctance to bowl yesterday. However, given that, I wonder if Surrey gave sufficient (or any) thought to leaving him out. I suspect any chance of that instantly evaporated once Ansari was left in SE11. However, Batty is not such a Brearley type figure that he can be chosen for his captaincy alone and he really needs to bowl more than he did yesterday so as not to put undue pressures on others. By way of example, Curran is just 21 and still finding his way in Division One whilst Rampaul, for all his nous and enthusiasm, is overweight, 30 odd and, as of a month ago, hadn't played a first class game in more than three years. Even Harinath bowled more yesterday, 10 overs to Batty's 9. As an aside, I would be interested to know what Harinath bowled yesterday - it tends to be off spin or slowish medium pace. If the former, that doesn't say much for Batty's bowling given part-timer Harinath was noticeably more economical.

As the summer hopefully gets better and wickets become more suitable for spinners (especially experienced ones), Batty should then prove his worth. However, points now are just as valuable as those at any other time.

Play suspended for the day.

Bizarre weather. Gorgeous sunshine and 20 degrees yesterday; gloomy cloud and spitting rain today.

Doesn't look promising for tomorrow, either, so I think we can chalk it up as a draw.

I'll start off by saying I'm not as well versed in the CC as you are, guildford. Partly this is because back in France you couldn't get any access to it, and partly because there's only so many things in life one can pursue an active interest in, and the CC falls outside that for me . I'll generally follow some of the early season stuff to see how England's Test players and hopefuls do, and keep a distant eye on how Middlesex are going, becoming more interested if they get close to promotion/relegation/a title. As such, I'm not sure I'm in a great place to comment on the merits of Batty as captain and thus automatic pick or not, but will have a go anyway.

It seems to me that Batty and Ansari in the same team, particularly early season, is unnecessary. Obviously circumstances could present a case where both are needed, but it would be rare. Now as bowlers there's probably not much between them from what I've seen, Ansari has a few more variations and strikes me as more likely to get good batsmen out, but Batty is a very solid county pro. Ansari is clearly the better batsman, and unless Batty has remarkably improved his fielding since I last saw him, equally clearly the better fielder. As such, he would seem to me to be more valuable when only one spinner is needed/desired.

Now if Ansari is unavailable, I would pick Batty. I commented a while back (on one of the international threads) that the current "trend" seems very much geared towards sides picking five bowlers, or at the very least 4+1: at international level England, Australia, India, WI, SL all do this as a matter of course. SA experimented with it recently (and used to do it with Kallis of course), etc. It gives the bowling attack better balance, as 4+1 allows you to bowl two "sets" of seamers, while 3+2 in spinning conditions lets you bowl spin from both ends, without having to bring a spinner on very early if your seamers are making inroads. I'd be incredibly loather in any conditions to see a side line up without a spinner, simply because pace bowlers can't bowl forever, and it's very hard to bowl through an innings with just four seamers and some part-timers.

You point out that Harinath, who might have bowled spin, did a better job than Batty. Now I have no idea if Harinath is someone who could do a regular job as a holding spinner, or more of a good-for-a-few overs type bowler. If the latter, then I think Batty has his place in the side. But as I said, I don't really follow the County game enough. If not Batty, who would/should have played in your opinion?

Back to the more specific point of yesterday, I can't help but feel you and other Surrey fans who aren't sure of Batty's worth as a playing member wanted him to bowl on the basis of "what's the good of him picking himself if he's not even going to bowl?" reactionary basis, whereas IMO, as outlined in my previous post, there were very good cricketing reasons for which he delayed his entry into the attack. Hindsight is always a wonderful thing of course, but as Mike is fond of quoting the great Mourinho "every decision a coach makes (or captain in this case) is the best decision he can": that is, captains and coaches always make what seems to them to be the best choice they can at that time, with the information available. Sometimes it produces the desired result, other times it doesn't, but I refuse to believe Batty, as consummate a professional as he is, will have held himself back purely out of fear of putting himself in the firing line. Not that you were suggesting that of course...

Anyway, off now to enjoy this glorious sunny and warm weather up here, speak later