The residency rule might be scrapped ?

First topic message reminder :

Agustin Pichot, the new vice chairman of world rugby has spoken up about the residency rule, and thank god that he has, lets be honest, it is a massive joke that makes a mockery out of international rugby union. here are some of his quotes on it:-

"Somebody will kill me, but we need to change it," 

"it is very important to keep the identity of your national team; it's very important."


Apparently it is on the agenda to be looked at over the next six months.

At last World Rugby are actually realising how ridiculous a rule it is, I welcome this news and I hope they act on it. There are plenty of media types covering it so I will just give this link:-

https://www.google.co.uk/?ion=1&espv=2#q=Agustin+Pichot+residency+rules

I hope this will put the whole project player debacle to bed as well.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well England have had Flutey Hape, Botha x2, Hughes coming, Rokoduguni fairly recently. Waters muddied more by the grandparent rules as well. Both those need tightening.

TBF to Roko he has been in England since 2008 and was on and off in the country till 2012 when he signed with Bath.

So given it was the British he was in the country for around 6 years before being capped.

PSML

I have very little issue with a lot of players Welly. There isn't one rule I dislike, just some of the individual examples and not all those I listed there I have a problem with.

LordDowlais wrote:So that's it then, you get proved wrong on things, so you start taking the p1ss and picking at other things in Welsh rugby ?

FFS, what has the appeal of the regions or the funding from the WRU got to do with capping mercenaries ? 

We have plenty of time servers at the regions, they use them to get around the NWQ agreement, we just CHOOSE not to cap them.

But you haven't 'proved' anything.

On the face of it you have tried to claim some kind of moral superiority based on the fact that you don't have 'short term' residence players, when we are saying is that you would have if you had the chance and the 'residence' player was superior.

Yes its a little naughty to pick up on often repeated themes about Welsh rugby and yes you do have your quota of NWQ players just like we have NEQ. But maybe Wales would have had more recent short term residence players if they were better at attracting quality unattached foreign talent.

There are strong opinions about how the rules work, which won't change. My personal view is that its much less of a problem than people think it is, especially for the bigger nations.

LordDowlais wrote:

We have plenty of time servers at the regions, they use them to get around the NWQ agreement, we just CHOOSE not to cap them.

Yep, and they're all sh1t, otherwise Gatland would have them in the squad faster than you can say pie

lostinwales wrote:But maybe Wales would have had more recent short term residence players if they were better at attracting quality unattached foreign talent.

Or perhaps we are better at producing our own talent and do not have to rely on capping players from other countries to make up for our short comings.

lostinwales wrote:But you haven't 'proved' anything. 

Yes I have. I have proved that Wales are nowhere near as bad as their 6N counterparts when it comes to exploiting the 3yr residency rule.

lostinwales wrote: My personal view is that its much less of a problem than people think it is, especially for the bigger nations.

It's not the bigger nations that need to worry, but the little nations who lose out on quality players.

No you haven't LD. The last quality player was Morgan, you wanted him. Now Underhill already on the radar. When/If you get the good unattached players coming to your clubs you want them.

See I agree there are a variety of individual cases that cause individual managing...but I still say the 3 changes I made above would be a big change.

Some dispute the scrapping the grandparent rule...I would be open to that but it would need to be stricter.

No 7&1/2 wrote:No you haven't LD. The last quality player was Morgan, you wanted him. Now Underhill already on the radar. When/If you get the good unattached players coming to your clubs you want them.

How many of those have we capped ?

How many of those came to Wales from another country after they played pro rugby elsewhere ? 

Those two were developed/developing in Wales. In fact, you might say Ben Morgan has regressed since he has been playing in England.

It doesn't matter how many LD, the point is that Wales would love to have capped Morgan, you would love the chance to cap someone like Nathan Hughes, what you lack, is opportunity.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have very little issue with a lot of players Welly. There isn't one rule I dislike, just some of the individual examples and not all those I listed there I have a problem with.

I agree with the fact the rule should be changed TBH and i have had issues with a few players being picked before.


 But there are odd instances for example
 Roko is British enough to fight for this country in a major warzone but not to play rugby for England? (This more more aimed at GF)

 For me I'm fine with that. Others not so much.

 Personally I would have a system of
 If moved when Younger than 18 they can play straight away for country where they moved to.
 IF 18 - 20 when moved the age of residency should be 3 years and they cannot play age grade international rugby for said country.
 After 20 when move it should be 6 years residency wait (misses at least 1 RWC), and shows a large commitment to rugby in that country.
(would also have a separate ruling for those who like Roko came to a country to join a armed forces and wasn't a pro athelte before hand).
And scrap the grandparents rule.

 Would be fine with that TBH.

LordDowlais wrote:

lostinwales wrote:But maybe Wales would have had more recent short term residence players if they were better at attracting quality unattached foreign talent.

Or perhaps we are better at producing our own talent and do not have to rely on capping players from other countries to make up for our short comings.

lostinwales wrote:But you haven't 'proved' anything. 

Yes I have. I have proved that Wales are nowhere near as bad as their 6N counterparts when it comes to exploiting the 3yr residency rule.

lostinwales wrote: My personal view is that its much less of a problem than people think it is, especially for the bigger nations.

It's not the bigger nations that need to worry, but the little nations who lose out on quality players.

All you have proved is that given that the WRU does not have a project player program (probably a good thing) Welsh rugby does not attract high quality unattached foreign players.

On the other hand England has a relatively well funded and large club competition that does attract high quality unattached foreign players, but the numbers making through residency and into England reckoning is actually very small.

Ireland does have project players in positions where they have weaknesses. The jury is out on how effective that has been.

Scotland does have its fair share but then they are recruiting from a very small pool and a few well placed players do help to keep them competitive.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It doesn't matter how many LD, the point is that Wales would love to have capped Morgan, you would love the chance to cap someone like Nathan Hughes, what you lack, is opportunity.

Firstly as I have said, we have plenty of opportunity to cap 3yr residency players. Hanno Dirksen was one mentioned earlier in this thread. But we do not. 

Secondly, just because you think we would love to do something does not mean you can accuse us of doing it. Now if we actually HAD done it, then you can accuse away.

You are just trying to make an argument, albeit a very shaky one that holds no substance, to try and justify what England are doing. 

Facts are Facts. Wales do not rely on 3yr residency players to improve the quality of the squad. That you cannot argue over.

Welly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have very little issue with a lot of players Welly. There isn't one rule I dislike, just some of the individual examples and not all those I listed there I have a problem with.

I agree with the fact the rule should be changed TBH and i have had issues with a few players being picked before.


 But there are odd instances for example
 Roko is British enough to fight for this country in a major warzone but not to play rugby for England? (This more more aimed at GF)

 For me I'm fine with that. Others not so much.

 Personally I would have a system of
 If moved when Younger than 18 they can play straight away for country where they moved to.
 IF 18 - 20 when moved the age of residency should be 3 years and they cannot play age grade international rugby for said country.
 After 20 when move it should be 6 years residency wait (misses at least 1 RWC), and shows a large commitment to rugby in that country.
(would also have a separate ruling for those who like Roko came to a country to join a armed forces and wasn't a pro athelte before hand).
And scrap the grandparents rule.

 Would be fine with that TBH.

That is probably one of the most sensible sets of criteria I have read that has been put forward on this forum. It is so sensible world rugby would do the exact opposite.

I would have to agree with that 100%.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:It doesn't matter how many LD, the point is that Wales would love to have capped Morgan, you would love the chance to cap someone like Nathan Hughes, what you lack, is opportunity.

Firstly as I have said, we have plenty of opportunity to cap 3yr residency players. Hanno Dirksen was one mentioned earlier in this thread. But we do not. 

Secondly, just because you think we would love to do something does not mean you can accuse us of doing it. Now if we actually HAD done it, then you can accuse away.

You are just trying to make an argument, albeit a very shaky one that holds no substance, to try and justify what England are doing. 

Facts are Facts. Wales do not rely on 3yr residency players to improve the quality of the squad. That you cannot argue over.

As shown, no one good enough for international rugby would willingly choose to go play for a Welsh region when they have offers from England/France/Ireland instead

That you cannot argue over

Well Gatland was deperate for Morgan, if the quality is there you would. Like you've said yourself too manu sub par foreigners at Welsh clubs. England don't rely on residency players either, so comes back to the point all countries currently play to the rules, no ones better than any other.

BamBam wrote:As shown, no one good enough for international rugby would willingly choose to go play for a Welsh region when they have offers from England/France/Ireland instead

Again, all you can do is take another swipe. Well then tell me why this would be ? It's not as if we haven't signed star players in the past, look at Ospreys and their galacticos.

Truth is, we do not sign players in their early to mid twenties on the basis that they might be capped in the future. No we produce our own.

England don't do that either LD though do they. The clubs stand on their own feet in reagrds signings. You normalyl complain about the poor quality of imports to the Welsh clubs, you still stand by that?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Well Gatland was deperate for Morgan, if the quality is there you would. Like you've said yourself too manu sub par foreigners at Welsh clubs. England don't rely on residency players either, so comes back to the point all countries currently play to the rules, no ones better than any other.

well, I could accuse you of anything on your grounds. In fact, you are a thief, because you have been in a shop before and if you wanted to, you could have nicked something.

Sillyness again LD. All I've (and a few others) have said is that you would choose players on 3 year residency (ignoring Faletau as a kid) and thats backed up by Gatland saying the same thing.

No 7&1/2 wrote:England don't do that either LD though do they.

Well the latest England squad would suggest otherwise.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You normalyl complain about the poor quality of imports to the Welsh clubs, you still stand by that?

Yes I would stand by that, but every now and again we get a good un. Hadley Parkes I would say being the most recent, or Rynard Landman.

LordDowlais wrote:

Welly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have very little issue with a lot of players Welly. There isn't one rule I dislike, just some of the individual examples and not all those I listed there I have a problem with.

I agree with the fact the rule should be changed TBH and i have had issues with a few players being picked before.


 But there are odd instances for example
 Roko is British enough to fight for this country in a major warzone but not to play rugby for England? (This more more aimed at GF)

 For me I'm fine with that. Others not so much.

 Personally I would have a system of
 If moved when Younger than 18 they can play straight away for country where they moved to.
 IF 18 - 20 when moved the age of residency should be 3 years and they cannot play age grade international rugby for said country.
 After 20 when move it should be 6 years residency wait (misses at least 1 RWC), and shows a large commitment to rugby in that country.
(would also have a separate ruling for those who like Roko came to a country to join a armed forces and wasn't a pro athelte before hand).
And scrap the grandparents rule.

 Would be fine with that TBH.

That is probably one of the most sensible sets of criteria I have read that has been put forward on this forum. It is so sensible world rugby would do the exact opposite.

I would have to agree with that 100%.

Guess i was due a sensible post sooner or later.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:As shown, no one good enough for international rugby would willingly choose to go play for a Welsh region when they have offers from England/France/Ireland instead

Again, all you can do is take another swipe. Well then tell me why this would be ? It's not as if we haven't signed star players in the past, look at Ospreys and their galacticos.

Truth is, we do not sign players in their early to mid twenties on the basis that they might be capped in the future. No we produce our own.

Would those "galacticos" be ageing ex internationals who've already played for other countries?

I do like how Gareth Anscombe has conveniently been overlooked in the granny debate

England do make far too much use of lax qualification rules, but so do most countries. Please, please, please do not slag us off for Te'o when you are happy with Francis.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England don't do that either LD though do they.

Well the latest England squad would suggest otherwise.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You normalyl complain about the poor quality of imports to the Welsh clubs, you still stand by that?

Yes I would stand by that, but every now and again we get a good un. Hadley Parkes I would say being the most recent, or Rynard Landman.

Real superstars, bet you can't wait till they're Welsh eligible

I'm sure NZ and SA were devastated they left

Welly wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:I have very little issue with a lot of players Welly. There isn't one rule I dislike, just some of the individual examples and not all those I listed there I have a problem with.

I agree with the fact the rule should be changed TBH and i have had issues with a few players being picked before.


 But there are odd instances for example
 Roko is British enough to fight for this country in a major warzone but not to play rugby for England? (This more more aimed at GF)

 For me I'm fine with that. Others not so much.

 Personally I would have a system of
 If moved when Younger than 18 they can play straight away for country where they moved to.
 IF 18 - 20 when moved the age of residency should be 3 years and they cannot play age grade international rugby for said country.
 After 20 when move it should be 6 years residency wait (misses at least 1 RWC), and shows a large commitment to rugby in that country.
(would also have a separate ruling for those who like Roko came to a country to join a armed forces and wasn't a pro athelte before hand).
And scrap the grandparents rule.

 Would be fine with that TBH.

I have said previously on this thread...that Roko is an exception because hes in the army and prepared to take bullets for this country....no one could argue with that.

Ive also said there are individual cases that cause variation in the rules that need to be managed on an individual basis...but in the majority it can be fixed quite quickly.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England don't do that either LD though do they.

Well the latest England squad would suggest otherwise.

Born in England (25):

Mullan, Genge, George, LCD, Cole, Hill, Sinkler, Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Haskell, Clifford, Care, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Daly, Joseph, Nowell, Slade, Watson, Goode, Brown


English Parent:

Harrison


English Grand Parent:

Te'o


Residency (with age moved):

Mako Vunipola 16, Billy Vunipola 12, Marland Yarde 11, Dylan Hartley 17

I don't think any NH country can claim to be squeaky clean. The only country in world rugby I feel can hold their head up high is Argentina. The rest have either got questionable selection in their team right now or have had so in the past.

Most celtic nations have relied on English raised players over the last decade or so. England & France have taken their fair share of residency based players and SANZAR raised ones. and Italy, hell Italy read the Jack Charlton book of player qualification and raised the bar a few notches.

SA has taken the odd Zimbo, AUS the odd kiwi, Fijian, Argentinian and NZ have taken the odd PI player.

Why can't we all be like Argentina huh!

BamBam wrote:I do like how Gareth Anscombe has conveniently been overlooked in the granny debate

Yep he was overlooked because of his Welsh mother.

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England don't do that either LD though do they.

Well the latest England squad would suggest otherwise.

Born in England (25):

Mullan, Genge, George, LCD, Cole, Hill, Sinkler, Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Haskell, Clifford, Care, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Daly, Joseph, Nowell, Slade, Watson, Goode, Brown


English Parent:

Harrison


English Grand Parent:

Te'o


Residency (with age moved):

Mako Vunipola 16, Billy Vunipola 12, Marland Yarde 11, Dylan Hartley 17

With such an explosive entry into the game, it does suggest Maro is born not of this earth no?

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England don't do that either LD though do they.

Well the latest England squad would suggest otherwise.

Born in England (25):

Mullan, Genge, George, LCD, Cole, Hill, Sinkler, Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Haskell, Clifford, Care, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Daly, Joseph, Nowell, Slade, Watson, Goode, Brown


English Parent:

Harrison


English Grand Parent:

Te'o


Residency (with age moved):

Mako Vunipola 16, Billy Vunipola 12, Marland Yarde 11, Dylan Hartley 17

Isn't Te'os mum English?

fa0019 wrote:I don't think any NH country can claim to be squeaky clean. The only country in world rugby I feel can hold their head up high is Argentina. The rest have either got questionable selection in their team right now or have had so in the past.

Most celtic nations have relied on English raised players over the last decade or so. England & France have taken their fair share of residency based players and SANZAR raised ones. and Italy, hell Italy read the Jack Charlton book of player qualification and raised the bar a few notches.

SA has taken the odd Zimbo, AUS the odd kiwi, Fijian, Argentinian and NZ have taken the odd PI player.

Why can't we all be like Argentina huh!

Argentina did not have a pro club scene, but do have a large pool of players. They therefore do not attract foreign pros, and only tend to have limited numbers of player with foreign links. Its not that surprising.

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England don't do that either LD though do they.

Well the latest England squad would suggest otherwise.

No 7&1/2 wrote:You normalyl complain about the poor quality of imports to the Welsh clubs, you still stand by that?

Yes I would stand by that, but every now and again we get a good un. Hadley Parkes I would say being the most recent, or Rynard Landman.

Really? Who?

fa0019 wrote:I don't think any NH country can claim to be squeaky clean.

I am not claiming the WRU of being squeaky clean, I am saying we are not as bad as our 6N partners.

And Hartley has an English parent. Thanks for going through that LT.

LordDowlais wrote:

BamBam wrote:I do like how Gareth Anscombe has conveniently been overlooked in the granny debate

Yep he was overlooked because of his Welsh mother.

Just like Teo's English mother then

No 7&1/2 wrote:Really? Who?

I was thinking of the likes of Ben Te'o. The wannabe Aussie but couldn't get in, but is now English. Although somebody on this thread has said he has an English mother.

God you're a parody

So LD, there's in fact no one in the England squad you have an issue with, it's just you made a mistake.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I don't think any NH country can claim to be squeaky clean.

I am not claiming the WRU of being squeaky clean, I am saying we are not as bad as our 6N partners.

I think you're being a little loose with the facts LD, your Henry/Hansen era was pretty special... although my own personal favourite was Budge Poutney.... i.e. born in Jersey, could represent any 4 so chose Scotland because his club coach was Geech.

from my count you have 10 players born outside of Wales in your squad.

Is there much difference between someone with a welsh granny from AUS and someone who moved there as a pro. Yes, but its pretty marginal. How many of us have foreign grannys but have little culture/language skills or have ever been there with any frequency? My gran was Italian, my da spoke fluent Italian as a child, spent a lot of time there but I'm about as Italian as a sausage roll.

Vunipolas, Hartleys, Faletaus, Tuilagi's they came over as kids and I agree anyone who fights for a given country has more right than the rest of us who haven't to represent them in sport.

http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/rugby/world-rugbys-residency-rules-prevented-ben-teo-playing-for-the-wallabies/news-story/150ef0ed312eab2616ae70a2631055da

Despite playing for Australia in RL World rugby decided Te'o was a Kiwi who had lost his right to qualify for the Wallabies because he moved to Ireland. Having an English mum means he can qualify for England.

Lots of references on line to his English mum

So a 'mercenary' but one with a right to play for England. He'd better be good...

fa0019 wrote:I think you're being a little loose with the facts LD, your Henry/Hansen era was pretty special

That era was a joke. A few Welsh players refused to represent Wales at any level over it. It was at a time where we lost about two generations worth of players to rugby league. I think, because of the fallout from that era, is why we are so reluctant to do it now.

Less reluctant and more no opportunity.

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think you're being a little loose with the facts LD, your Henry/Hansen era was pretty special

That era was a joke. A few Welsh players refused to represent Wales at any level over it. It was at a time where we lost about two generations worth of players to rugby league. I think, because of the fallout from that era, is why we are so reluctant to do it now.

2 generations worth of players.... you mean Quinnell for 2 years, Gibbs for 3, Davies, Moriarty and Young?

Davies aside I don't think it was as big as its made out. Your pack was dire so he was getting terrible service anyhow and I think that's why he went when he did.

Loved the Charvis affair. Born and raised in Solihull to parents from Solihull. Played for London Welsh when at uni.................

LordDowlais wrote:

fa0019 wrote:I think you're being a little loose with the facts LD, your Henry/Hansen era was pretty special

That era was a joke. A few Welsh players refused to represent Wales at any level over it. It was at a time where we lost about two generations worth of players to rugby league. I think, because of the fallout from that era, is why we are so reluctant to do it now.

2 generations worth of players.... you mean Quinnell for 2 years, Gibbs for 3, Davies, Moriarty and Young?

Davies aside I don't think it was as big as its made out. Your pack was dire so he was getting terrible service anyhow and I think that's why he went when he did.

Loved the Charvis affair. Born and raised in Solihull to parents from Solihull. Played for London Welsh when at uni.................

Welly wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:England don't do that either LD though do they.

Well the latest England squad would suggest otherwise.

Born in England (25):

Mullan, Genge, George, LCD, Cole, Hill, Sinkler, Itoje, Kruis, Launchbury, Lawes, Robshaw, Haskell, Clifford, Care, Youngs, Ford, Farrell, Daly, Joseph, Nowell, Slade, Watson, Goode, Brown


English Parent:

Harrison


English Grand Parent:

Te'o


Residency (with age moved):

Mako Vunipola 16, Billy Vunipola 12, Marland Yarde 11, Dylan Hartley 17

Isn't Te'os mum English?

Most people seem to think the dodgy players are those qualifying under the grandparent rule or having come here as professional rugby players. England have none of these.

If LD has an objection to players having come to England as children or relying on parentage then half the Welsh team should be playing for England subject of course to being good enough.

Expect some sort of bluster containing lots of FFS coming your way shortly Exiled and fa

fa0019 wrote:2 generations worth of players.... you mean Quinnell for 2 years, Gibbs for 3, Davies, Moriarty and Young?

Well that's a few for starters. Then you have players like Jonathan Griffiths, the Ford brothers, Tony Woods, Kevin Ellis, Alan Bateman, Barry Williams, Mark Jones, Dai Bishop, Adrian Hadley, Rowland Phillips... ah feck it. 

here is a list, take a look at how many went between 1987-1999:-

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Wales_national_rugby_league_team_players

Exiledinborders wrote:If LD has an objection to players having come to England as children or relying on parentage then half the Welsh team should be playing for England subject of course to being good enough.

Here we go, please point me in the direction of me saying that. In fact I can point you in the direction of saying that if a player has come through the system from a young age then it should not count.

But that will not suit what you want it to, will it ?

Well you just said you have issues with the England squad now. Which players did you mean?