Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

The build up to Ulsters gloriously successful 2016/2017 campaign starts here!

Allow summer optimism to get the better of you or discuss why we are in crisis right here on this thread- before weary resignation over the quality of forwards we have sinks in once again.

clivemcl wrote:
very much have a bad taste in my mouth regarding Ireland internationally.

Don't let the door hit you on the ar5e on the way out. You could always support England? Or Wales? Maybe New Zealand is the one for you. Great team!

Munchkin wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Nonsense. We have had SH's come through and none unseated P. Marshall. You're living in a fantasy world if you really believe we can create an international standard SH from nothing.

Look. The bloke is not leaving until next season. Surely you can unearth another IQ or project player with a full year to do so.

Ulster have the most NIQs of all the provinces and they have just signed another this morning. We'd all love to sign a clatter of big name players from abroad but it just doesn't work like that.

On the upside, you still have him for one more season. Make the most of it, the Pro12 will be poorer for losing players of this caliber. But you have all this season to try and unearth a gem.

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:In my opinion, Ruan has been instrumental in the development of several current and future Irish players (Jackson, McCloskey and Olding to name 3). The fact the he has been a part of this should be appreciated and allowed to continue. He is not blocking a future Ireland 9's development...

They might also view it as he having done his job with Jackson and it is now time for Jackson to be 'the man'.

Another consideration is that with Pienaar at Ulster, no other IQ player will go there. For example, Marmion might have gone to Ulster to build up a partnership with Jackson if Pienaar wasn't there.

Its a bit of a catch 22 situation - but it is very tough on Pienaar that he has to move away when he and his family are so happy in Ulster.

Jackson has been 'the man' for some time now. The idea that Pienaar was holding Jacksons hand is nonsense, even if he did mentor him.

The notion that Marmion would come to Ulster in the absence of Pienaar is fanciful. The evidence is to the contrary. Nucifora can't force players to come here. He can only force players out.....

I feel the IRFU have shown an incredible lack of loyalty to a servant who has served them well.

Who said he was holding his hand? More like from a shared responsibility to being fully responsible for the team.

As for Marmion not moving from Connacht - Robbie Henshaw moved to further his international ambitions by playing outside Sexton. As an exile as well, who has already moved from Cardiff to further his career, Marmion is far more likely to move to Ulster than some of the other homegrown scrumhalfs who have a very long association with their Province.

edit: IRFU's only loyalty is to the international team. Everyone and everything else is seconardy.

You did, in thinking that now Jackson can be 'the man'.

Leinster isn't Ulster. You're dreaming if you think Marmion would have come to Ulster. It's a pretty feeble attempt to excuse the IRFU, methinks.

Yep, the IRFU's loyalty is to the international team, but that doesn't have to mean they can't show loyalty to those who have served their cause. They have stabbed Pienaar in the back.

No I didn't. And I've explained what I meant. With no Pienaar, there can be no questions about who is in charge.

My point still remains that with Pienaar in situ, Ulster would find it very difficult to attract a top class, ambitious scrumhalf.

The IRFU has been operating this way for a long time now - you won't get to keep any top class NIQ players once they hit 30. Its happened with Munster with Paul Warwick, Mafi & Wian. Munster had to pick between Wian & BJ - we were not allowed keep both. BJ would also be gone about 3 years ago except for all the injuries to Archer.

Never mind the fact that the IRFU are plain wrong about Ulster home grown now potentially thriving in Pienaar absence. We have a man and a family here who genuinely have found their new home. So much was his love for this place he turned down crazy money and instead opted to stay. We have told a man he can no longer work here, and are forcing him and his children (born here) to move away to find work. That's not a nice thing to do in any case. But it must hurt even more when the reasoning behind it makes no sense.

If the IRFU and Nusifora have a secret planned and agreed IQ transfer in the waiting then great, otherwise they have plain and simple screwed over Ruan's family life and left UR up sh!t creek and for no good reason

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Ulster can't get a project now that Leinster have one at 9 so that rules that possibility out
They have tried developing Porter, Shanahan and have signed Angus Lloyd but that will take time
Yes there are upsides and downsides to the system but the logic being applied is self defeating

marty2086 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Ulster can't get a project now that Leinster have one at 9 so that rules that possibility out
They have tried developing Porter, Shanahan and have signed Angus Lloyd but that will take time
Yes there are upsides and downsides to the system but the logic being applied is self defeating

I'm not defending Nucifora. Just pointing out the rules and how they hurt/benefit ALL of the provinces.

Do I think the IRFU are being short sighted in not helping the provinces more? Yes. I do.

Would I like to see all 4 provinces cut adrift in the morning to make it on their own? With no plan? No way.

I am not welded to the idea of union control. If there was a plan to transition to autonomy for provinces AND it was a good one with interested parties and cash on the table I would be all for it.

It's not happening in the next 12 months though so I'll take the benefits of union protection and tolerate the downsides until there is a viable alternative.

LordDowlais wrote:On the upside, you still have him for one more season. Make the most of it, the Pro12 will be poorer for losing players of this caliber. But you have all this season to try and unearth a gem.

It's a positive way of looking at things but if there's an Irish qualified gem out there who can play anywhere close to Pienaar's level then I'll eat my own cahones

I won't give up hope that the IRFU can see sense and not forcibly uproot Ruan and his family for the sake of a bit of box ticking.

There is hope for all you Ulster fans. Look, I was bitching and moaning about Ospreys having players Kahn Fatuali'i and Tito Tibaldi. They went off to pastures new, and look how Rhys Webb developed. Yes losing a player like RP is a hard pill to swallow, but you still have him for one more season. Make the most of him, you never know, it might be the making of a young Irish player at the province.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Yeah, when UR realised they had Pienaar at their disposal they just stopped signing any young scrum-halves for the academy. Why would they need to do that when they have Pienaar?

Yea, quite clearly UR are not a bunch of dumbasses. Even if we had secretly hoped for a contract renewal we would have been screwed when Pienaar ultimately retired. The notion that we weren't doing our best to unearth an IQ scrum-half is idiotic.

Nucifora and IRFU clearly believe one or all of the following:
- That UR havn't actually been planning a contingency IQ alternative to Ruan whether through academy or recruitment
- That one of our current scrum-halves is an international in waiting but for lack of game time
- That another IQ scrum-half from another province is champing at the bit for a move north once Pienaar leaves

Agree with Clive and Rory. They were pursuing Coetzee for something like two years before he signed. They managed to get in and gazump the NZRU when they were in contract negotiations with Piutau before any other clubs realised he might be available. We consistently find Irish qualified players in the lower leagues of Australia, New Zealand and England no-ones heard of and many of them go on to make their reputations at Ulster. Players like Sean Reidy, Tom Court and Dan Tuohy have gone on to play for Ireland after being unearthed by Ulster scouts who found them languishing in second tier rugby overseas.

Given all of that are we seriously meant to believe they've been sitting saying "Here, let's not bother looking to replace Pienaar at any point, even though its not our decision whether he stays or not". They do their best but you're lucky if there are one or two available Irish Qualified players for the position you need on the market at any one time. Every time we go to talk to players at Munster or Leinster who are festering in the reserves they tell us where to go. We're looking at people whose Australian granny had a pint of Guinness once or no-one at all. We got in Angus Lloyd at 9 this close season. He's a guy who failed to make the Leinster Academy and it would not surprise me if he was literally the only available Irish qualified scrum-half of any level of ability we could have signed this year. He might still turn out to not be very good. When we can't sign a back row or a scrum half, it's not for lack of trying or because we want to rely on NIQs. These players simply aren't out there.

But thats not saying anything new. We've had the debate- it seems pretty clear to me at least that if you're getting rid of NIQ players because of a succession plan you should be able to point to the player who will succeed them and if you can't do that, there's no upside to the decision.

No what really annoys me is that Pienaar showed a huge amount of loyalty in turning down Toulon when he could have won silverware and made a lot more money, and then the IRFU has turned around and told him to Foxtrot Oscar.

If you don't treat players with respect, why would anyone else want to come? Thats how we lost Marty Moore to Wasps as well. Bryn Cunningham at Ulster does everything he can to make players welcome and feel valued and send out the right message to guys because we know we can't compete on wages, and then Nucifora just turns around, goes over his head and does the exact opposite. We don't need to pay Nucifora all that money to make us look bad. The IRFU can find an Irish person for much less to make ourselves look bad.

The IRFU said quite clearly during the summer at their annual report publication that development of indigenous players was the way forward and that is where the money/investment is going to be for the next few years.

The objective now is to have three high quality players in every position playing with the provinces. And Nucifora's job is to enforce that and to develop a lot more movement around the provinces to get game time for players.

Piennaaaar had one extension and it's a fair assumption that at 33 when it finishes, he was unlikely to get another.   He's been a great player for the province, and obviously has enjoyed his time with the club.  Will he leave without a medal or cup to his name in his long tenure with Ulster?

I've seen it referenced a couple of times, what is the 'chill factor' that people mention is a possible barrier to players moving to Ulster?

Pot Hale wrote:The IRFU said quite clearly during the summer at their annual report publication that development of indigenous players was the way forward and that is where the money/investment is going to be for the next few years.

This is the frustrating thing. You can't develop players who do not exist. If they go on to follow this up by getting one of the top four Irish scrum halves to Ulster to get game time as a starter, fine- there's a logic to that. But the beneficiaries will be Paul Marshall, Dave Shanahan and Angus Lloyd. They're not going to develop into international players. Shanahan and Lloyd were free agents because they are too small to be realistic threats around the fringes and average in other respects. They are Munster/Leinster Academy rejects who had a choice between coming up here for one last shot at pro rugby or finding a real job. Are we really saying that Pienaar staying here is what will stop them starring for Ireland in coming years?

Pot Hale wrote:Piennaaaar had one extension and it's a fair assumption that at 33 when it finishes, he was unlikely to get another.   He's been a great player for the province, and obviously has enjoyed his time with the club.  Will he leave without a medal or cup to his name in his long tenure with Ulster?

It's a very valid question, but it's also twisting the knife and thats a bit unnecessary today. A bit déclassé given the circumstances.

Pot Hale wrote:I've seen it referenced a couple of times, what is the 'chill factor' that people mention is a possible barrier to players moving to Ulster?

Many of my friends in Belfast who are from the South had very inaccurate expectations of what living here is actually like. They were expecting open bigotry and roadside checkpoints and they found nice cafes and cheap booze. They all love it now they are here but many were apprehensive before they came.

It's hard to get past the Troubles-era stereotypes that exist in the South. It's easier to talk to players overseas who don't have that image of the city.

LordDowlais wrote:There is hope for all you Ulster fans. Look, I was bitching and moaning about Ospreys having players Kahn Fatuali'i and Tito Tibaldi. They went off to pastures new, and look how Rhys Webb developed. Yes losing a player like RP is a hard pill to swallow, but you still have him for one more season. Make the most of him, you never know, it might be the making of a young Irish player at the province.

Graciousness? Empathy? Reason? On 606v2?

LD, you just don't get this place at all...

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:Piennaaaar had one extension and it's a fair assumption that at 33 when it finishes, he was unlikely to get another.   He's been a great player for the province, and obviously has enjoyed his time with the club.  Will he leave without a medal or cup to his name in his long tenure with Ulster?

It's a very valid question, but it's also twisting the knife and thats a bit unnecessary today. A bit déclassé given the circumstances.

Ah here, we're not at a funeral, Notch.   The news is not particularly surprising or shocking.   But if you're looking for a 24-hour moratorium to absorb the news and contemplate the future, so be it.

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've seen it referenced a couple of times, what is the 'chill factor' that people mention is a possible barrier to players moving to Ulster?

Many of my friends in Belfast who are from the South had very inaccurate expectations of what living here is actually like. They were expecting open bigotry and roadside checkpoints and they found nice cafes and cheap booze. They all love it now they are here but many were apprehensive before they came.

It's hard to get past the Troubles-era stereotypes that exist in the South. It's easier to talk to players overseas who don't have that image of the city.

Ah, so the perceived "chill" relates to the general environment, as opposed to the club. I misunderstood the phrase.

I think things are starting to change in respect to Southerners' reticence to come north. Sure, at the minute it's just those who don't want to fall through the cracks at one of the other provinces, but that doesn't have to mean they are poor. Toner aside, I'm not sure I'd take any of Leinster's current second rows over O'Connor, who they rejected. He was growing into a bit of an enforcer for us last season, and was an important part of the set-up.

Pot Hale wrote:

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've seen it referenced a couple of times, what is the 'chill factor' that people mention is a possible barrier to players moving to Ulster?

Many of my friends in Belfast who are from the South had very inaccurate expectations of what living here is actually like. They were expecting open bigotry and roadside checkpoints and they found nice cafes and cheap booze. They all love it now they are here but many were apprehensive before they came.

It's hard to get past the Troubles-era stereotypes that exist in the South. It's easier to talk to players overseas who don't have that image of the city.

Ah, so the perceived "chill" relates to the general environment, as opposed to the club.  I misunderstood the phrase.

Yes - while many are happy to brush their hands together and say "thank goodness that's over - now everything's normal, right?" about the Troubles, you can't really just hit "undo" on 30-odd years of murder and mayhem. It's not as if it never happened, as much as we might wish it to be.

I think Leinster made a big mistake regarding Alan O'Connor, but its still telling he came here because Leinster didn't want to know about him.

As for this whole farce, while it is an unforgivably stupid decision on the behalf of the IRFU to not give him at least one years extension at least it SHOULD allow us to sign a second top class back rower with the money it frees up. Surely, surely, that would be allowed given we have Roger Wilson probably retiring, Chris Henry now past his best at test level and Diack deemed not good enough- plus the fact we have been turned down by back rowers from the other provinces time and time again. Surely they will allow us to sign another back row. They must.

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've seen it referenced a couple of times, what is the 'chill factor' that people mention is a possible barrier to players moving to Ulster?

Many of my friends in Belfast who are from the South had very inaccurate expectations of what living here is actually like. They were expecting open bigotry and roadside checkpoints and they found nice cafes and cheap booze. They all love it now they are here but many were apprehensive before they came.

It's hard to get past the Troubles-era stereotypes that exist in the South. It's easier to talk to players overseas who don't have that image of the city.

Ah, so the perceived "chill" relates to the general environment, as opposed to the club.  I misunderstood the phrase.

Yes - while many are happy to brush their hands together and say "thank goodness that's over - now everything's normal, right?" about the Troubles, you can't really just hit "undo" on 30-odd years of murder and mayhem.  It's not as if it never happened, as much as we might wish it to be.

Even chatting to Munster fans who have come up for just one game I've heard them say that they had friends/relatives who were around during the Troubles warning against them making the trip. And thats just for one night for goodness sake.

clivemcl wrote:

If the IRFU and Nusifora have a secret planned and agreed IQ transfer in the waiting then great, otherwise they have plain and simple screwed over Ruan's family life and left UR up sh!t creek and for no good reason

Screwing players over is nothing new to the IRFU. In an article in the Rugby Paper, Tony Buckley describes how the IRFU withdrew a contract offer which was particularly hard at the time as his wife was very ill and they had a couple of kids (think she had cancer). They had to up sticks and move to England in the middle of all of that.

The IRFU have always been heartless and ruthless (with the exception of possibly Paul O'Connell and Brian O'Driscoll who they have looked out for).

It's 'okay' to be heartless and ruthless when you act in the best interests of Irish Rugby. When those decisions are made in defiance of the best interests of Irish Rugby, you just have to laugh at the incompetence of it all!

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've seen it referenced a couple of times, what is the 'chill factor' that people mention is a possible barrier to players moving to Ulster?

Many of my friends in Belfast who are from the South had very inaccurate expectations of what living here is actually like. They were expecting open bigotry and roadside checkpoints and they found nice cafes and cheap booze. They all love it now they are here but many were apprehensive before they came.

It's hard to get past the Troubles-era stereotypes that exist in the South. It's easier to talk to players overseas who don't have that image of the city.

Ah, so the perceived "chill" relates to the general environment, as opposed to the club.  I misunderstood the phrase.

Yes - while many are happy to brush their hands together and say "thank goodness that's over - now everything's normal, right?" about the Troubles, you can't really just hit "undo" on 30-odd years of murder and mayhem.  It's not as if it never happened, as much as we might wish it to be.

You do have to bear in mind that it is a different country with a somewhat different culture, shops, currency, laws, and a somewhat bizarre proliferation of flags and coloured bunting that I still find disconcerting after 30 odd years even though I now probably spend a third of my time there with family living there.

LordDowlais wrote:There is hope for all you Ulster fans. Look, I was bitching and moaning about Ospreys having players Kahn Fatuali'i and Tito Tibaldi.

That's the opposite of how Ulster fans have adopted Ruan Pienaar.

Lord Dowlais wrote:They went off to pastures new, and look how Rhys Webb developed.

I imagine Webb learnt a lot from Fotuali'i.

Pot Hale wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've seen it referenced a couple of times, what is the 'chill factor' that people mention is a possible barrier to players moving to Ulster?

Many of my friends in Belfast who are from the South had very inaccurate expectations of what living here is actually like. They were expecting open bigotry and roadside checkpoints and they found nice cafes and cheap booze. They all love it now they are here but many were apprehensive before they came.

It's hard to get past the Troubles-era stereotypes that exist in the South. It's easier to talk to players overseas who don't have that image of the city.

Ah, so the perceived "chill" relates to the general environment, as opposed to the club.  I misunderstood the phrase.

Yes - while many are happy to brush their hands together and say "thank goodness that's over - now everything's normal, right?" about the Troubles, you can't really just hit "undo" on 30-odd years of murder and mayhem.  It's not as if it never happened, as much as we might wish it to be.

You do have to bear in mind that it is a different country with a somewhat different culture, shops, currency, laws, and a somewhat bizarre proliferation of flags and coloured bunting that I still find disconcerting after 20 years even though I now probably spend a third of my time there with family living there.

Spend all that time here and still don't know its not a flag, its a fleg

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Don Alfonso wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:

Notch wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:I've seen it referenced a couple of times, what is the 'chill factor' that people mention is a possible barrier to players moving to Ulster?

Many of my friends in Belfast who are from the South had very inaccurate expectations of what living here is actually like. They were expecting open bigotry and roadside checkpoints and they found nice cafes and cheap booze. They all love it now they are here but many were apprehensive before they came.

It's hard to get past the Troubles-era stereotypes that exist in the South. It's easier to talk to players overseas who don't have that image of the city.

Ah, so the perceived "chill" relates to the general environment, as opposed to the club.  I misunderstood the phrase.

Yes - while many are happy to brush their hands together and say "thank goodness that's over - now everything's normal, right?" about the Troubles, you can't really just hit "undo" on 30-odd years of murder and mayhem.  It's not as if it never happened, as much as we might wish it to be.

You do have to bear in mind that it is a different country with a somewhat different culture, shops, currency, laws, and a somewhat bizarre proliferation of flags and coloured bunting that I still find disconcerting after 20 years even though I now probably spend a third of my time there with family living there.

Spend all that time here and still don't know its not a flag, its a fleg

Yes, my rellies remind me of this regularly...

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Leaving aside the argument over Pienaar I have a more specific question. You mention the union controlled set up has also got upsides. What are these upsides? I am neither pro or against it I would just like to see what the upsides are for Ulster because I started to think about it and came up blank now that could be that I'm an idiot but it would be nice to have them if anyone happens to ask me in the future.

Notch wrote:I think Leinster made a big mistake regarding Alan O'Connor, but its still telling he came here because Leinster didn't want to know about him.

As for this whole farce, while it is an unforgivably stupid decision on the behalf of the IRFU to not give him at least one years extension at least it SHOULD allow us to sign a second top class back rower with the money it frees up. Surely, surely, that would be allowed given we have Roger Wilson probably retiring, Chris Henry now past his best at test level and Diack deemed not good enough- plus the fact we have been turned down by back rowers from the other provinces time and time again. Surely they will allow us to sign another back row. They must.

At present we have four NIQ (Pienaar, Van der Merwe, Coetzee and Piutau), and two projects (Herbst and Ludik), although we should really only have the one project. Herbst and Ludik will be Irish qualified at the end of season, and Pienaar away, so that gives us one project and one NIQ available. Maybe two NIQ if we let Van der Merwe go.

I can't see the IRFU allowing us another backrow player with Coetzee already there. They might consider a much needed fullback though and, if Van der Merwe goes, maybe a fullback and a wing or centre.

If he knew this was going to happen, Pienaar should have taken the big contact at Toulon a couple of years ago.
What message does this send out to other NIQ players, what will happen when Piutau's contract is up, and he can make more overseas, maybe he'll have bought into Ulster like Pienaar has and will want to stay, but having seen how Pienaars loyalty actually made him worse off, he'll take the money while he can. Same for Coetzee.

I don't think the other provinces see it the same way, as they don't currently have big international players anymore, mostly projects or decent internationals, but not the same bracket where they would get into any team.

Imagine if Leinster were not allowed to extend Isa's contact a few years before he retired, after everything he gave Leinster he's told thanks and goodbye, I don't think Leinster fans would have been happy. Or if the IRFU had said Doug Howlett couldn't resign around 2011?

Kingshu wrote:If he knew this was going to happen, Pienaar should have taken the big contact at Toulon a couple of years ago.
What message does this send out to other NIQ players, what will happen when Piutau's contract is up, and he can make more overseas, maybe he'll have bought into Ulster like Pienaar has and will want to stay, but having seen how Pienaars loyalty actually made him worse off, he'll take the money while he can. Same for Coetzee.

I don't think the other provinces see it the same way, as they don't currently have big international players anymore, mostly projects or decent internationals, but not the same bracket where they would get into any team.

Imagine if Leinster were not allowed to extend Isa's contact a few years before he retired, after everything he gave Leinster he's told thanks and goodbye, I don't think Leinster fans would have been happy. Or if the IRFU had said Doug Howlett couldn't resign around 2011?

A lot from the other Provinces strongly disagree with forcing Pienaar out. Social media are not loving Nucifora.

Completely agree with the rest of your post. Not encouraging for NIQ's or any coach thinking of coming here.

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:I think Leinster made a big mistake regarding Alan O'Connor, but its still telling he came here because Leinster didn't want to know about him.

As for this whole farce, while it is an unforgivably stupid decision on the behalf of the IRFU to not give him at least one years extension at least it SHOULD allow us to sign a second top class back rower with the money it frees up. Surely, surely, that would be allowed given we have Roger Wilson probably retiring, Chris Henry now past his best at test level and Diack deemed not good enough- plus the fact we have been turned down by back rowers from the other provinces time and time again. Surely they will allow us to sign another back row. They must.

At present we have four NIQ (Pienaar, Van der Merwe, Coetzee and Piutau), and two projects (Herbst and Ludik), although we should really only have the one project. Herbst and Ludik will be Irish qualified at the end of season, and Pienaar away, so that gives us one project and one NIQ available. Maybe two NIQ if we let Van der Merwe go.

I can't see the IRFU allowing us another backrow player with Coetzee already there. They might consider a much needed fullback though and, if Van der Merwe goes, maybe a fullback and a wing or centre.

So they would not allow us to strengthen our very weak forward pack with only two really decent internationals, but allow us to sign more NIQ players for our back line despite the fact we have Irish internationals in every position from 10 to 15?

Do you want a job in Dublin per chance?

Notch wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Notch wrote:I think Leinster made a big mistake regarding Alan O'Connor, but its still telling he came here because Leinster didn't want to know about him.

As for this whole farce, while it is an unforgivably stupid decision on the behalf of the IRFU to not give him at least one years extension at least it SHOULD allow us to sign a second top class back rower with the money it frees up. Surely, surely, that would be allowed given we have Roger Wilson probably retiring, Chris Henry now past his best at test level and Diack deemed not good enough- plus the fact we have been turned down by back rowers from the other provinces time and time again. Surely they will allow us to sign another back row. They must.

At present we have four NIQ (Pienaar, Van der Merwe, Coetzee and Piutau), and two projects (Herbst and Ludik), although we should really only have the one project. Herbst and Ludik will be Irish qualified at the end of season, and Pienaar away, so that gives us one project and one NIQ available. Maybe two NIQ if we let Van der Merwe go.

I can't see the IRFU allowing us another backrow player with Coetzee already there. They might consider a much needed fullback though and, if Van der Merwe goes, maybe a fullback and a wing or centre.

So they would not allow us to strengthen our very weak forward pack with only two really decent internationals, but allow us to sign more NIQ players for our back line despite the fact we have Irish internationals in every position from 10 to 15?

Do you want a job in Dublin per chance?

I'm after Nucifora's job

neilthom7 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Leaving aside the argument over Pienaar I have a more specific question. You mention the union controlled set up has also got upsides.  What are these upsides? I am neither pro or against it I would just like to see what the upsides are for Ulster because I started to think about it and came up blank now that could be that I'm an idiot but it would be nice to have them if anyone happens to ask me in the future.

They funded the wave of signings that brought Pienaar in in the first place. They invested a huge amount of money for us to become more financially self-reliant (we're not yet self-reliant) and part of that was giving us money towards a lot of NIQ players. The upside is we are heavily financially subsidised without having to rely on the generosity of wealthy individuals or the accumulation of unsustainable amounts of debt.

We used that money well to build up our fan base and make the most of what we have on and off the pitch, so credit to Ulster for taking the opportunity they gave us. But we couldn't have done it without the injection if IRFU funding in the first place, as well as the money from the NIE to redevelop Ravenhill.

We should castigate the IRFU when they get it wrong it surely even the most blinkered of us can see without them we'd be just like the Welsh regions. Pienaar for 7 years isn't as good as Pienaar for 8/9 years, beats the hell out of Pienaar for 0 years.

Notch wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Leaving aside the argument over Pienaar I have a more specific question. You mention the union controlled set up has also got upsides.  What are these upsides? I am neither pro or against it I would just like to see what the upsides are for Ulster because I started to think about it and came up blank now that could be that I'm an idiot but it would be nice to have them if anyone happens to ask me in the future.

They funded the wave of signings that brought Pienaar in in the first place. They invested a huge amount of money for us to become more financially self-reliant (we're not yet self-reliant) and part of that was giving us money towards a lot of NIQ players. The upside is we are heavily financially subsidised without having to rely on the generosity of wealthy individuals or the accumulation of unsustainable amounts of debt.

We used that money well to build up our fan base and make the most of what we have on and off the pitch, so credit to Ulster for taking the opportunity they gave us. But we couldn't have done it without the injection if IRFU funding in the first place, as well as the money from the NIE to redevelop Ravenhill.

We should castigate the IRFU when they get it wrong it surely even the most blinkered of us can see without them we'd be just like the Welsh regions. Pienaar for 7 years isn't as good as Pienaar for 8/9 years, beats the hell out of Pienaar for 0 years.

Cheers Notch just couldn't think of it. It has to say a lot about the pro 12 and european cup that contantly finishing in the top 4 in pro 12 and doing reasonably in europe doesn't pay enough along with the full stadia etc to keep a province fully self sufficient even when the stadium was paid for by the government. How can they constantly be on tv in bbc, sky, bt etc and not have decent amounts of money coming in when you see what they pay out to some sports? The people at the top of these organisations have a lot to answer for. Still that is an argument for a different day

Kingshu wrote:If he knew this was going to happen, Pienaar should have taken the big contact at Toulon a couple of years ago.
What message does this send out to other NIQ players, what will happen when Piutau's contract is up, and he can make more overseas, maybe he'll have bought into Ulster like Pienaar has and will want to stay, but having seen how Pienaars loyalty actually made him worse off, he'll take the money while he can. Same for Coetzee.

I don't think the other provinces see it the same way, as they don't currently have big international players anymore, mostly projects or decent internationals, but not the same bracket where they would get into any team.

Imagine if Leinster were not allowed to extend Isa's contact a few years before he retired, after everything he gave Leinster he's told thanks and goodbye, I don't think Leinster fans would have been happy. Or if the IRFU had said Doug Howlett couldn't resign around 2011?

Leinster were allowed extend Isa's contract in 2012 JUST before he was 30. In EXACTLY the same way as Ulster were allowed to extend Pienaar's contract Just before he was 30. Leinster were denied an extension for Nathan Hines as he was over 30. (He was a big loss)

Exactly. The other provinces have not been allowed to sign big names for some time now. When did you see a player at the level of Piutau or Coetzee signed by Munster or Leinster? Enjoy it while you can.

neilthom7 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Leaving aside the argument over Pienaar I have a more specific question. You mention the union controlled set up has also got upsides.  What are these upsides? I am neither pro or against it I would just like to see what the upsides are for Ulster because I started to think about it and came up blank now that could be that I'm an idiot but it would be nice to have them if anyone happens to ask me in the future.

What? Apart from the fact that all 4 provinces would cease to exist in the morning without IRFU money what have the IRFU ever done for us?

Many provincial fans are like teenagers wanting to be let do what they want while they are living in their parents house having all their bills paid.

Has Ulster Rugby done enough to promote the game outside of the usual strongholds with a view to drawing more youngsters towards the game?

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Kingshu wrote:If he knew this was going to happen, Pienaar should have taken the big contact at Toulon a couple of years ago.
What message does this send out to other NIQ players, what will happen when Piutau's contract is up, and he can make more overseas, maybe he'll have bought into Ulster like Pienaar has and will want to stay, but having seen how Pienaars loyalty actually made him worse off, he'll take the money while he can. Same for Coetzee.

I don't think the other provinces see it the same way, as they don't currently have big international players anymore, mostly projects or decent internationals, but not the same bracket where they would get into any team.

Imagine if Leinster were not allowed to extend Isa's contact a few years before he retired, after everything he gave Leinster he's told thanks and goodbye, I don't think Leinster fans would have been happy. Or if the IRFU had said Doug Howlett couldn't resign around 2011?

Leinster were allowed extend Isa's contract in 2012 JUST before he was 30. In EXACTLY the same way as Ulster were allowed to extend Pienaar's contract Just before he was 30. Leinster were denied an extension for Nathan Hines as he was over 30. (He was a big loss)

Exactly. The other provinces have not been allowed to sign big names for some time now. When did you see a player at the level of Piutau or Coetzee signed by Munster or Leinster? Enjoy it while you can.

Leinster were also allowed to resign him in 2015 when he was in his 30's.

Nathan Hines is slightly different as he hadn't been at Leinster for years.

Its not that the other provinces haven't been allowed to sign big names, its the budgets cannot afford them or they go to France instead. Hopefully the Pro 12 can catch up and we all see these signings again.

Pot Hale wrote:Has Ulster Rugby done enough to promote the game outside of the usual strongholds with a view to drawing more youngsters towards the game?  

Its an ongoing process, I know they set a target of getting every primary school kid in NI to the Nevin Spence centre but no idea how far along they are with that process. They have taken training sessions to Derry, Cavan etc to bring the teams closer to fans who dont normally get the opportunity.
They have also opened gyms in different areas to encourage people to get fit and play rugby, theres one in West Belfast which is far from a rugby hotbed

Kingshu wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Kingshu wrote:If he knew this was going to happen, Pienaar should have taken the big contact at Toulon a couple of years ago.
What message does this send out to other NIQ players, what will happen when Piutau's contract is up, and he can make more overseas, maybe he'll have bought into Ulster like Pienaar has and will want to stay, but having seen how Pienaars loyalty actually made him worse off, he'll take the money while he can. Same for Coetzee.

I don't think the other provinces see it the same way, as they don't currently have big international players anymore, mostly projects or decent internationals, but not the same bracket where they would get into any team.

Imagine if Leinster were not allowed to extend Isa's contact a few years before he retired, after everything he gave Leinster he's told thanks and goodbye, I don't think Leinster fans would have been happy. Or if the IRFU had said Doug Howlett couldn't resign around 2011?

Leinster were allowed extend Isa's contract in 2012 JUST before he was 30. In EXACTLY the same way as Ulster were allowed to extend Pienaar's contract Just before he was 30. Leinster were denied an extension for Nathan Hines as he was over 30. (He was a big loss)

Exactly. The other provinces have not been allowed to sign big names for some time now. When did you see a player at the level of Piutau or Coetzee signed by Munster or Leinster? Enjoy it while you can.

Leinster were also allowed to resign take a punt on him in 2015 when he was in his 30's 2 years after he retired due to injury.

Nathan Hines is slightly different as he hadn't been at Leinster for years.

Its not that the other provinces haven't been allowed to sign big names, its the budgets cannot afford them or they go to France instead. Hopefully the Pro 12 can catch up and we all see these signings again.

Do you genuinely believe that second last sentence or are you extracting the wee wee?

Leinster could easily drum up a few bob for a Piutau. They are not allowed because they don't want to let their young players get pushed around to other provinces against their will.

St John The Enforcer wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Leaving aside the argument over Pienaar I have a more specific question. You mention the union controlled set up has also got upsides.  What are these upsides? I am neither pro or against it I would just like to see what the upsides are for Ulster because I started to think about it and came up blank now that could be that I'm an idiot but it would be nice to have them if anyone happens to ask me in the future.

What? Apart from the fact that all 4 provinces would cease to exist in the morning without IRFU money what have the IRFU ever done for us?

Many provincial fans are like teenagers wanting to be let do what they want while they are living in their parents house having all their bills paid.

Thanks for that but Notch already answered my question much better. also I was genuinely asking so there is absolutely no need for the attitude

neilthom7 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

neilthom7 wrote:

St John The Enforcer wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:A succession plan is a great idea in theory but the fact is, we haven't actioned any succession and not just at Ulster. Besides, there isn't any reason why we would when we have a world class scrum-half on our books

You have just answered your own question there. Why would you bother yer holes developing a young scrum half or finding a project like JGP when you have a comfort blanket of one of the best Scrum halves for a 7 year period. QED.

Yes it's hard on you but you either buy into the union controlled set up or you don't. There are also up sides.....

Leaving aside the argument over Pienaar I have a more specific question. You mention the union controlled set up has also got upsides.  What are these upsides? I am neither pro or against it I would just like to see what the upsides are for Ulster because I started to think about it and came up blank now that could be that I'm an idiot but it would be nice to have them if anyone happens to ask me in the future.

What? Apart from the fact that all 4 provinces would cease to exist in the morning without IRFU money what have the IRFU ever done for us?

Many provincial fans are like teenagers wanting to be let do what they want while they are living in their parents house having all their bills paid.

Thanks for that but Notch already answered my question much better. also I was genuinely asking so there is absolutely no need for the attitude

Well pardon me for being unable to distinguish between "genuinely asking" and "pretending to be stupid to wind people up" Sensitive bunch here obviously. I'll leave yiz to it.

Look instead of saying "Jayz Ulster fans, you think thats bad? Sure Leinster/Munster/Connacht are after signing three kids standing on each others shoulders to play at lock because of the cold, heartless IRFU. Yis don't know how lucky you are" maybe we should all expect a little more common sense from the IRFU and a little less rigidly sticking to their own rules even though it means everybody loses out regardless of what team is affected this time? It will definitely affect other provinces just as much.

I genuinely dream of the day where the IRFUs ambition to have 95+% of players in the system eligible for Ireland, but you don't just get there by getting rid of the best NIQ players and replacing them with no-hopers. If there's a solid case to be made that a player is blocking a genuinely decent players development by all means. Since Nucifora came in these rules have been enforced in ways which are nonsensical. The man is a complete lemon. There's a balance to be struck. It's better for the national team to have something like 85% Irish players and be at the top of the European game than a 100% Irish players and be mediocre also rans. At least then we'll be accustomed to winning things.

If you weaken the spine of a team, you weaken the team and make it harder to win games. At least now when we are challenging players want to play for the team but remember when we weren't the players got their heads turned easier, the sponsors don't want to know and the fans begin to find better things to do with their Friday nights

Well thats the other crucial point. It's not necessarily a positive sum game when younger, less experienced Irish players get game time over better foreign players. If performance drops, revenue drops and you are more likely to lose the better, more ambitious players.

I don't think that will happen with Ulster. I think we are good enough to weather this storm in the short term and I think our Academy is getting better, but we have a major headache inflicted by the restrictions on signing back row forwards and now we have another major headache at 9. Albeit one that has been ongoing since long before we signed Isaac Boss. We haven't produced a decent homegrown scrum-half since before Isaac Boss.

These are very solvable problems. The money is there, the players are interested and there is no promising indigenous talent who will be missing out. It's time we see some talent moving North to get exposure in our problem positions otherwise this IRFU posturing is all for nothing.

Also- what does it say about Irish players when guys like Coetzee and Piutau will move halfway across the world to play for Ulster despite being highly rated current internationals but someone like Jack Conan would rather sit on the bench behind Heaslip than move 2 hours up the road? Even on a loan deal? Ulster players the exact same. They would rather move to mediocre English clubs than go to another province even if it means dropping down to the Championship.

This is a bloody parochial country we live in.

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Munchkin wrote:

Sin é wrote:

eirebilly wrote:In my opinion, Ruan has been instrumental in the development of several current and future Irish players (Jackson, McCloskey and Olding to name 3). The fact the he has been a part of this should be appreciated and allowed to continue. He is not blocking a future Ireland 9's development...

They might also view it as he having done his job with Jackson and it is now time for Jackson to be 'the man'.

Another consideration is that with Pienaar at Ulster, no other IQ player will go there. For example, Marmion might have gone to Ulster to build up a partnership with Jackson if Pienaar wasn't there.

Its a bit of a catch 22 situation - but it is very tough on Pienaar that he has to move away when he and his family are so happy in Ulster.

Jackson has been 'the man' for some time now. The idea that Pienaar was holding Jacksons hand is nonsense, even if he did mentor him.

The notion that Marmion would come to Ulster in the absence of Pienaar is fanciful. The evidence is to the contrary. Nucifora can't force players to come here. He can only force players out.....

I feel the IRFU have shown an incredible lack of loyalty to a servant who has served them well.

Who said he was holding his hand? More like from a shared responsibility to being fully responsible for the team.

As for Marmion not moving from Connacht - Robbie Henshaw moved to further his international ambitions by playing outside Sexton. As an exile as well, who has already moved from Cardiff to further his career, Marmion is far more likely to move to Ulster than some of the other homegrown scrumhalfs who have a very long association with their Province.

edit: IRFU's only loyalty is to the international team. Everyone and everything else is seconardy.

You did, in thinking that now Jackson can be 'the man'.

Leinster isn't Ulster. You're dreaming if you think Marmion would have come to Ulster. It's a pretty feeble attempt to excuse the IRFU, methinks.

Yep, the IRFU's loyalty is to the international team, but that doesn't have to mean they can't show loyalty to those who have served their cause. They have stabbed Pienaar in the back.

No I didn't. And I've explained what I meant. With no Pienaar, there can be no questions about who is in charge.

My point still remains that with Pienaar in situ, Ulster would find it very difficult to attract a top class, ambitious scrumhalf.

The IRFU has been operating this way for a long time now - you won't get to keep any top class NIQ players once they hit 30. Its happened with Munster with Paul Warwick, Mafi & Wian. Munster had to pick between Wian & BJ - we were not allowed keep both. BJ would also be gone about 3 years ago except for all the injuries to Archer.

Pienaar himself said it was Jackson calling the shots. Nothing will change in that regard once Pienaar departs.

You can stand by your point all you want, it doesn't make it true, especially since there are no 'top class' SH in Ireland, bar Murray. Where else do you think they're going to come from?

I don't care how long they have been operating like this. Having a history of punishing loyalty doesn't make it right.

Look, I honestly support the succession planning, and the current NIQ. The thing I'm not happy with is forcing a player out when that player has given so much to Ulster and, by extension, the IRFU. A player who more than proved his own loyalty by turning down the big money in France to stay here. There's also the fact that forcing him out makes no sense because we really have nobody to replace him. There is no succession, and not for want of trying. This will needlessly hurt Ulster and the IRFU.

It also seems very hypocritical to me. Nucifora blathers on about blocking of indigenous players (nothing but an excuse), and yet he and the IRFU are more than happy to fill the squad with foreign projects or ship plastic paddies in who happen to have a half Irish granny.

I was going to the extreme with the drop in attendances etc but whats crazy is we have a head coach who played the position but its about the only one we haven't produced a decent player for.

How many Ulster players though have had the chance to move South over a Championship side? Porter, Faloon, McCrea, NOC etc have went to Connacht and back, Sam Arnolds gone to Munster though hes an exile, Conor Careys been signed by Connacht for this season. Those from Ulster who have left to go to the Championship usually aren't up to scratch at that point in time.