Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

The build up to Ulsters gloriously successful 2016/2017 campaign starts here!

Allow summer optimism to get the better of you or discuss why we are in crisis right here on this thread- before weary resignation over the quality of forwards we have sinks in once again.

Girvan Dempsey - touch wood - appears to be a good one. But at 41, he'd need to be making some moves if he ever had ambitions to be head coach. It doesn't, though, seem to be in his plans.

A few - between the lines - observations or questions about what Geoff has written.

It would appear - reading between the lines - that with Anscombe's behaviour, it was more serious than over-drinking.  I wouldn't expect Geoff to confirm or deny anything but just that link up to Jackson and Olding seems curious given the allegations to date seem have been quite different in tone to the usual that I hear about Anscombe - drunk too often.

The other thing that catches my attention is the Pienaer bit.  If as alluded to, so many players and a few of the better ones felt and feel that the conditions at Ulster Rugby are intolerable and if Piatau wants out if he could get out...then why does the ultra smooth Professional that is Pienaer -a player I'm sure is conscious of the need to be always in an environment that gives him an opportunity to win things - why has he been always so comfortable and satisfied with the environment - so much so that he is genuinely upset that he has been forced to move on?

Is it the Nightlife/entertainment possibilities/general lifestyle that annoys/disappoints these other players?

SecretFly wrote:A few - between the lines - observations or questions about what Geoff has written.

It would appear - reading between the lines - that with Anscombe's behaviour, it was more serious than over-drinking.  I wouldn't expect Geoff to confirm or deny anything but just that link up to Jackson and Olding seems curious given the allegations to date seem have been quite different in tone to the usual that I hear about Anscombe - drunk too often.

The other thing that catches my attention is the Pienaer bit.  If as alluded to, so many players and a few of the better ones felt and feel that the conditions at Ulster Rugby are intolerable and if Piatau wants out if he could get out...then why does the ultra smooth Professional that is Pienaer -a player I'm sure is conscious of the need to be always in an environment that gives him an opportunity to win things - why has he been always so comfortable and satisfied with the environment - so much so that he is genuinely upset that he has been forced to move on?

Is it the Nightlife/entertainment possibilities/general lifestyle that annoys/disappoints these other players?

Pienaars has set up home in Ulster. He and his family have settled here for the long-term. So the Ulster set-up might rankle him, but he's probably brushing that aside in the interests of his family.

SecretFly wrote:
Is it the Nightlife/entertainment possibilities/general lifestyle that annoys/disappoints these other players?

Belfast is a far cry from the bright lights of Coventry!

Northern Ireland is where Ruan and his family want to live permanently; so ideally it is the team he wants to play for above all others.
He has enjoyed his time here and is tremendously loyal but I suspect, although he would never say it, he is deeply upset with the way things are going.

Thinks only really started to fall apart when dumb and dumber were left in charge on their own - Kiss has failed to rein it in given the shackles he has on him re decision making.

As to Anscombes activities lets just say we are only talking drink but at public occasions, where he represented the club and sometimes a level of rowdiness that  might have interested officers of the law.

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Is it the Nightlife/entertainment possibilities/general lifestyle that annoys/disappoints these other players?

Belfast is a far cry from the bright lights of Coventry!

Thought so. I think Bordello spending money should in future be added to player contracts.... and a few decent Bordellos erected to spend such expenses in.

geoff999rugby wrote:Northern Ireland is where Ruan and his family want to live permanently; so ideally it is the team he wants to play for above all others.
He has enjoyed his time here and is tremendously loyal but I suspect, although he would never say it, he is deeply upset with the way things are going.

Thinks only really started to fall apart when dumb and dumber were left in charge on their own - Kiss has failed to rein it in given the shackles he has on him re decision making.

As to Anscombes activities lets just say we are only talking drink but at public occasions, where he represented the club and sometimes a level of rowdiness that  might have interested officers of the law.

Oh okay.  Gotcha.  Glad that was cleared up.  The Quiet Man stuff.

I have to say the fixture list worries me

After Zebre at home we have

Cardiff A, Clermont H, Clermont A, Connacht H, Leinster A, Scarlets A, Exeter A

Connacht is the only one I would have us favourites for and even them not by much.
Winning 2 would be good, 3 would be a real result.

geoff999rugby wrote:
As to Anscombes activities lets just say we are only talking drink but at public occasions, where he represented the club and sometimes a level of rowdiness that  might have interested officers of the law.

In fairness several Ulster players in recent times have done the same, or worse, without being shown the door.

Like I said though, for me the big question is... how is the whole notion of Pienaar and Muller coaching ever going to fit in with the IRFU's backing of Doak and Clarke and their agenda regarding indigenous coaches?

If Ulster are doing so well financially/commercially - is there ever a likelihood they might tell Dublin to keep out, and cover the Irish contracts themselves?

Surely it has to come to a head somewhere down the line. How many head coaches have to 'fail' before the rest of the coaching team get's looked at?

Oh that's right... IRFU aren't interested in province success (not up in the North at least).

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
As to Anscombes activities lets just say we are only talking drink but at public occasions, where he represented the club and sometimes a level of rowdiness that  might have interested officers of the law.

In fairness several Ulster players in recent times have done the same, or worse, without being shown the door.

Given what I know, since Wilson and Best were shown the door, I don't think any player has come close

Much as we would like it Muller will never leave South Africa unless his personal circumstances change

Ulster are the most successful of the provinces financially but as Logan admitted they still get 15% of their income from Dublin

I think the idea of having home grown coaches is good but there has to be a quality level under which is unacceptable - Doak and Clarke fail that test

geoff999rugby wrote:

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
As to Anscombes activities lets just say we are only talking drink but at public occasions, where he represented the club and sometimes a level of rowdiness that  might have interested officers of the law.

In fairness several Ulster players in recent times have done the same, or worse, without being shown the door.

Given what I know, since Wilson and Best were shown the door, I don't think any player has come close

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/kyriacou-suspended-for-week-1.491059

http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/news/northern-ireland/ulster-rugby-star-roger-wilson-given-threeyear-road-ban-after-second-drinkdrive-offence-31365742.html

clivemcl wrote:Like I said though, for me the big question is... how is the whole notion of Pienaar and Muller coaching ever going to fit in with the IRFU's backing of Doak and Clarke and their agenda regarding indigenous coaches?

If Ulster are doing so well financially/commercially - is there ever a likelihood they might tell Dublin to keep out, and cover the Irish contracts themselves?

Surely it has to come to a head somewhere down the line. How many head coaches have to 'fail' before the rest of the coaching team get's looked at?

Oh that's right... IRFU aren't interested in province success (not up in the North at least).

So we'll be looking for a Third Anthem at games in a few years?

The auld Republican one. The wishy washy Uniting one. And the new Anti IRFU Division of Labour one.

The Welsh ain't gonna be happy. They hate our longwinded opening ceremonies in Lansdowne during the 6N.

Totally forgot that Kyriacou ever existed!

Guys I believe Anscombe's repeat offending was significantly worse than either Wilson or Kyriacou - he just didn't get caught

geoff999rugby wrote:Guys I believe Anscombe's repeat offending was significantly worse than either Wilson or Kyriacou - he just didn't get caught

Hmmmm now that does get the imagination going Geoff. If I were a journo I'd have a story to make up right there

In other news the Bangor Bulldozer has been passed fit for duty. Hands off Schmidt, he's ours.

While I'm delighted to have you back, Geoff, I'm depressed as hell now.

Don Alfonso wrote:While I'm delighted to have you back, Geoff, I'm depressed as hell now.

I second that

If Anscombes behave wasn't good for the clubs image how exactly is Doaks and Clarkes?

If their behaviour is having an adverse affect on the players and preparation, does it not amount to unprofessional behaviour?

The idea of Irish coaches is a nice idea but if someone like Pienaar would like to be part of the setup how is that somehow less because he isn't Irish, that kind of loyalty and the knowledge he would bring cannot be underestimated

Davidson and McLaughlin for Doak and Clarke?

It really feels like we missed our chance to push on. Now the dark days of 2008/2009 beckon again...

One thing that's disappointing me most is that Piutau isn't impressed. They have led us to believe it times past that our foreigners have loved the place and that it is their good recommendations that bring more big names. I'm sure the same talking happens in reverse. If Piutau thinks the setup is a joke, you can be sure there are players back in New Zealand who have heard.

That said, we shouldn't be relying on foreigners. We have always believed we've needed them until we build endogenously. Problem is, that doesn't seem to be happening - not in the forwards anyway.

And yet some young players who didn't make the cut have gone on to thrive elsewhere. You seriously have to ask questions about why Dow wasn't given a shot given his u21 international caps etc, and the injuries we have. He certainly won't get looked at with Hendo and Henry back (and then Coetzee).

Amazed how much of a free pass Kiss is getting - as DoR the buck stops with him - not Doak, Clarke, Nucifora or the IRFU.

Bryn Cunningham has been a disaster too.

I guess whenever you told your fan base that going a season without a proper coach would be 'worth it' - it's gona be quite difficult to admit you were wrong. If UR were to decide Kiss wasn't good enough, they can only blame him for the time he was here. The blame for the previous coach-less season is on Logan.

clivemcl wrote: The blame for the previous coach-less season is on Logan.

The problem is we were better when we were coach-less.

Doak and Clarke get a pass that Anscombe doesn't for 2 reasons:

1. There unprofessional behaviour is internal, his was external
2. Their Irish

Being poor internally and sounding professional externally is ok
Being well run but behaving badly to the outside world is not acceptable

Its the world we live in

rodders wrote:Amazed how much of a free pass Kiss is getting - as DoR the buck stops with him - not Doak, Clarke, Nucifora or the IRFU.

Bryn Cunningham has been a disaster too.

Kiss doesn't get a free pass but he has been forced to keep Doak and Clarke by IRFU and their employee Nucifora
We can only really judge Kiss if he was allowed to pick his own team - he isn't
Having said that how much has he complained about the current set up ??? - I don't know.

A poor run up to Christmas may bring it to a head - I almost hope it happens because we cant continue as we are

How has Cunningham been a disaster ??

clivemcl wrote: The blame for the previous coach-less season is on Logan.

If you are referring to last year that simply isn't right.

IRFU, backup by Muller, said Anscombe had to go - Logan wanted to keep him.
IRFU forced Kiss on us, although to be fair we were happy with him as an individual.
The situation where we had no head coach last year was forced on us by the IRFU, it was not of Logans making

clivemcl wrote:with Hendo and Henry back (and then Coetzee).

Just to make a point - the Ulster first choice backrow will NOT be Hendo, Coetzee, Henry.
There are no plans to play Coetzee at 8 - he will be 6 with Hendo in the row - where Joe wants him to develop
Also bear in mind no replacement for de Merwe next year - Henderson is, long term, a Lock as far as Dublin are concerned.
The first choice backrow is Coetzee, Reidy, Henry

To be honest Reidy is the ONLY backrower who has played to the required standard this year - everyone else has been below what is required.

To be fair, Coetzee, Reidy and Henry (if he re-finds form) is actually a VERY good backrow.
Its what is immediately under neath that is so lacking.
I personally can't wait to see our first choice pack in January. We may see a few fantastic performances. But we won't win silverware - because squads win silverware - not first XVs.

Too true but even then how many of our pack would make the Saracens pack

Best would just edge out George I reckon
Henderson wouldn't edge our Kruis
Until we see Coetzee cant call him and Wray

The other 5 wouldn't get close.
Could do something similar, depressingly, with Wasps as well

We are miles behind where we need to be.
Look at the team against Beagles compared to the 2012 final team.
Best in both, in every other forward position the 2012 players was better, and often, by a wide margin

Our reserves are not good enough but neither are our first XV pack

More disappointing news but should come as no surprise.
Whilst Tommy Bowe will improve and do a decent job his leg will never be 100%
That's is from a physio

geoff999rugby wrote:More disappointing news but should come as no surprise.
Whilst Tommy Bowe will improve and do a decent job his leg will never be 100%
That's is from a physio

I'd been told the same Geoff and it's so disappointing. I'd love to see the guy go out on a high. Mind you it's not looking like anyone is going to provide us with many highs in the near future. It's a shame that the horse actually has to bolt before anyone closes the stable door these days

Less of the doom and gloom, the Christmas market will be here soon.

I still fancy us to make the pro12 play offs.

We could but that only shows, to me, how far the Pro 12 is slipping.
I do worry about our post Zebre fixture list it is tough and unless we shake ourselves up big time it could put us into a tailspin.

Having said that - except Saracens, Wasps, and maybe Bath the Aviva isn't great either.

Leicester 4th is a joke - you could call their defence a sieve but that would be an insult to sieves everywhere !

"I do worry about our post Zebre fixture list"

Geoff, I worry about the Zebre game the way we're going

geoff999rugby wrote:
Having said that - except Saracens, Wasps, and maybe Bath the Aviva isn't great either.

I think Exeter are pretty good.

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Having said that - except Saracens, Wasps, and maybe Bath the Aviva isn't great either.

I think Exeter are pretty good.

They've been poor this season especially compared to last season but they are missing the likes of Nowell and Chudley and Steenson and Slade have missed a few games too

geoff999rugby wrote:We could but that only shows, to me, how far the Pro 12 is slipping.
I do worry about our post Zebre fixture list it is tough and unless we shake ourselves up big time it could put us into a tailspin.

Having said that - except Saracens, Wasps, and maybe Bath the Aviva isn't great either.

Leicester 4th is a joke - you could call their defence a sieve but that would be an insult to sieves everywhere !

Top14 isn't great either, Clermont are top and anytime Ive seen them they look beatable and conceded more tries than most teams in the league

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Having said that - except Saracens, Wasps, and maybe Bath the Aviva isn't great either.

I think Exeter are pretty good.

They've been poor this season especially compared to last season but they are missing the likes of Nowell and Chudley and Steenson and Slade have missed a few games too

Agreed Exeter look disjointed this year - line out is a shambles and backs have no flow.
Backrow not what it was - although hampered by significant injuries

geoff999rugby wrote:
Being poor internally and sounding professional externally is ok

That's the problem, it only stays that way for so long. Others on here have heard rumours, you have heard the stories too and shared them and like some say the likes of Piutau are probably sharing their tales. Im sure the press have it all too, what if it happens again it becomes a recurring problem and if the poor form continues it then becomes a symptom of Ulsters problems and part of a story which will likely get reported

Is there any news on who we have available for the match on Friday? I had heard McCloskey, Henry and big Rodders are still unavailable. Anyone got any updates?

Henry is hoping to be back with Ludik, no mention of Ah You but McCloskey needs another week

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38069028?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

marty2086 wrote:Henry is hoping to be back with Ludik, no mention of Ah You but McCloskey needs another week

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38069028?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Wasn't AhYou a head injury? I'd have thought he would be ready for a return. It'd be great to see Chad back in harness.

marty2086 wrote:Henry is hoping to be back with Ludik, no mention of Ah You but McCloskey needs another week

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/football/38069028?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=facebook

Didn't know Henry and Ludik were a thing.

Funny old world

marty2086 wrote:

rodders wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:
Having said that - except Saracens, Wasps, and maybe Bath the Aviva isn't great either.

I think Exeter are pretty good.

They've been poor this season especially compared to last season but they are missing the likes of Nowell and Chudley and Steenson and Slade have missed a few games too

Horrendous injuries in the backrow have meant they've deployed two 8's instead of two of the three industrious flankers they normally select. The drop in work rate round the park has hit them hard and their openside Salvi looks cream crackered trying to cover.

Expect them to improve now injured players are returning and next season they've picked up Kvesic which is a good signing for the backrow.

Does the delayed team announcement suggest Joe isn't too sure of match day squad yet? Or at lease some may have niggling injuries so he's not decided on who is being released yet?

Pete330v2 wrote:Is there any news on who we have available for the match on Friday? I had heard McCloskey, Henry and big Rodders are still unavailable. Anyone got any updates?

I can confirm I'm available for selection Pete.

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Is there any news on who we have available for the match on Friday? I had heard McCloskey, Henry and big Rodders are still unavailable. Anyone got any updates?

I can confirm I'm available for selection Pete.

Les may well need you at this rate Rodders

Pete330v2 wrote:

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:Is there any news on who we have available for the match on Friday? I had heard McCloskey, Henry and big Rodders are still unavailable. Anyone got any updates?

I can confirm I'm available for selection Pete.

Les may well need you at this rate Rodders

Yikes that would be a crisis.

Rodders is a better Tighthead than everyone expects and used to play 10 at Campbell College - how can he be left out?