Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

The build up to Ulsters gloriously successful 2016/2017 campaign starts here!

Allow summer optimism to get the better of you or discuss why we are in crisis right here on this thread- before weary resignation over the quality of forwards we have sinks in once again.

Few pointers to my mind:

International career over
Home is Bristol not Belfast
Henderson will be a full time Lock next year so not guaranteed a place
Bigger contract
Clarke is a tube

Nothing to do with Nucifora this one. Not looked a happy bunny for some time to be honest.

Does make we wonder if a Project Lock could be on the way which would mean no project LH as we sure as hell need an 8.
Henderson, AOC, Browne and Diack is hardly enough for next year

You left out Treadwell geoff, unless theres something you're not telling us?

Also beside Wilson we have 3 other guys on contract who can play 8. Is that just to put out a team for the Ulster A?

Seems like a waste of money

Treadwell is nowhere near the standard required - not as good as hoped.
Bit of a lump - needs a lot of work.

Reidy is a passable 8 but not great - Rea and Dow are prospects not being given a chance.
We are seriously short at 8 for next year - even worse than this.

Are Dow and Rea not getting a chance down to Kiss, Clarke or both?

Disappointing about Treadwell as he looked good at Quins and I know some of their fans were sorry to him go

Tuohy is a good player but realistically Ulster have freed up a wage. Tuohy hasn't played much in the last 3 years and likely would not have played much again for Ulster. The English championship is much easier on the body so he can prolong his career there.

profitius wrote:Tuohy is a good player but realistically Ulster have freed up a wage. Tuohy hasn't played much in the last 3 years and likely would not have played much again for Ulster. The English championship is much easier on the body so he can prolong his career there.

Most players have a relegation release option. He might never get to the Championship though if he struggles with injury the Prem isn't a great choice. Bristol spend well but it'll be a miserable six months before they get relegated.

Don't get me wrong Treadwell may come good but he is nowhere near ready - no further on than Donnan or Thompson.

As for giving players a go - it seems an Ulster disease not to try youngsters out not just this coaching set up.

If it was any other province Donnan, Thompson, Rea and Dow  would have half a dozen matches under their belt from this year and last.

We would rather play 35 year olds who are finished or play players in their mid twenties who are never going to be good enough - Mulholland and Joyce for example.
Or waste of spaces like Windsor. While I am at it why is Murphy at the club.

If Ah You, Herbst and Lutton had not been injured Kane would have got nowhere near the 1st XV  and would probably have gone the way of Bealham.

Even saw it on here - the reluctance to play Herron and some saying Pienaer should be 10.
You never find out which players are good enough unless you throw them in at the deep end.
Some sink some swim but playing prospect makes more sense that has beens and never will bes

Utter incompetence and utter madness.

Don't see how it can be claimed Tuohy has not played in the last 3 years.
Up to last Christmas he was a regular for the preceding 2 1/2 years

13-14 17 starts 4 times came on as sub
14-15 16 starts
15-16 7 starts 1 time came on as sub

Basically out for 10 months including a close season

Really? We're comparing my suggestion of Pienaar over Herron with the likes of Wilson and Ross over Dow?

I agree with your overall feeling about blooding players Geoff - but my argument (as previously outlined) was that the Zebre was a 'must-win' for morale and not the time for it.

But one thing we can agree on, regardless of opposition is that Dow surely can't be a bad bet compared with playing Wilson. The mind boggles.

So who do we have as a prospect in the row? Is Franco leaving at end of season? Are we allowed to replace an yet another NIQ with another NIQ in the same position?

I didn't think Tuohy was set to leave right away, as this clip strongly suggests:

ClarkeInterview

No suggestion of a project player coming in to replace him.

I really don't get the whole not giving the likes of Dow a chance when Wilson is clearly finished and has been for some time. Geoff mentioned Kane there but how many more of our players got breakthroughs simply because of injuries, I believe Alan O'Connor was one when he first broke through some of the backs most likely too, maybe others I cannot think off.
Also I think in fairness Clive Pienaar would have played anyways just at 9 instead so technically Geoff is comparing Herron to Paul Marshall and we have very much seen the height of Marshalls ability

clivemcl wrote:  Really? We're comparing my suggestion of Pienaar over Herron with the likes of Wilson and Ross over Dow?

I agree with your overall feeling about blooding players Geoff - but my argument (as previously outlined) was that the Zebre was a 'must-win' for morale and not the time for it.

But it is not just Pienaer over Herron but also Marshall over Pienaer.
You are falling into the same trap as Ulster rugby, it never the right time you can always find an excuse to play safe.
We need a backup 10 - Nelson injury we don't know the outcome of, Pienaer is away, we will not be allowed to sign a NIQ 10, so Herron it is.
The biggest mistake we can make is giving Herron next to no game time because of a series of 'must win games' and as a consequence he goes backwards playing AIB rugby.
We have to gamble for the future, it is what the other provinces would do and they are right.

clivemcl wrote:So who do we have as a prospect in the row? Is Franco leaving at end of season? Are we allowed to replace an yet another NIQ with another NIQ in the same position?  

Basically front line row next year - Henderson, AOC, Browne
Young players - Donnan, Treadwell, Thompson
Backup - Diack

My initial understanding was our Project players next year will be LH and 8 with an IQ SH so no Lock.

Lets find out if Rea, Down, Donnan, Simpson etc can make the same, or better, impact that Kane did - what have we got to lose.
The alternative is to continue to sign honest triers like Browne, Black and Ross who, with due respect, are going to win us nothing.

Munchkin wrote:I didn't think Tuohy was set to leave right away, as this clip strongly suggests:

ClarkeInterview

No suggestion of a project player coming in to replace him.

My take from that interview is Tuohy has been told what Stevenson was told last year:

'You have no long term future at the club and we will do the decent thing and help facilitate a move elsewhere'

geoff999rugby wrote:

Munchkin wrote:I didn't think Tuohy was set to leave right away, as this clip strongly suggests:

ClarkeInterview

No suggestion of a project player coming in to replace him.

My take from that interview is Tuohy has been told what Stevenson was told last year:

'You have no long term future at the club and we will do the decent thing and help facilitate a move elsewhere'

It's possible geoff, but I really didn't get that from the interview. The closest to it was probably where Clarke said that they will do the best for him at this time, or said something close to that. In fact, I thought Clarke appeared disappointed.

With 18 months left to go on his contract, it would seem unwise for Ulster Rugby to let him go right now. Why would they invest so much on getting him back to playing, and push him out once he starts playing?, and especially with Van der Merwe away next season.

Yea, you would be inclined to think he wasn't being offered a long enough contract, and Bristol offered longer and more job security. But that doesn't seem right. With 18 months left, I can't imagine UR have made any commitments or otherwise regarding the likelihood of him extending.

No, it looks to me like a combination of a player getting an opportunity to play back home (a la iHumph), and a player who has become disenchanted with the club and it's setup.

geoff999rugby wrote:Don't get me wrong Treadwell may come good but he is nowhere near ready - no further on than Donnan or Thompson.

As for giving players a go - it seems an Ulster disease not to try youngsters out not just this coaching set up.

If it was any other province Donnan, Thompson, Rea and Dow  would have half a dozen matches under their belt from this year and last.

We would rather play 35 year olds who are finished or play players in their mid twenties who are never going to be good enough - Mulholland and Joyce for example.
Or waste of spaces like Windsor. While I am at it why is Murphy at the club.

If Ah You, Herbst and Lutton had not been injured Kane would have got nowhere near the 1st XV  and would probably have gone the way of Bealham.

Even saw it on here - the reluctance to play Herron and some saying Pienaer should be 10.
You never find out which players are good enough unless you throw them in at the deep end.
Some sink some swim but playing prospect makes more sense that has beens and never will bes

Utter incompetence and utter madness.

This is an honest question and have no idea the answer, but has the preference to not blood players not come from Kiss or been a long running Ulster issue predating Kiss's involvement with the club? I ask, as it just struck me that it seems alot more players have been blooded for ireland since Kiss left the national setup (though that may well be more down to the stage of the RWC cycle rather than coaching personnel).

wolfball wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Don't get me wrong Treadwell may come good but he is nowhere near ready - no further on than Donnan or Thompson.

As for giving players a go - it seems an Ulster disease not to try youngsters out not just this coaching set up.

If it was any other province Donnan, Thompson, Rea and Dow  would have half a dozen matches under their belt from this year and last.

We would rather play 35 year olds who are finished or play players in their mid twenties who are never going to be good enough - Mulholland and Joyce for example.
Or waste of spaces like Windsor. While I am at it why is Murphy at the club.

If Ah You, Herbst and Lutton had not been injured Kane would have got nowhere near the 1st XV  and would probably have gone the way of Bealham.

Even saw it on here - the reluctance to play Herron and some saying Pienaer should be 10.
You never find out which players are good enough unless you throw them in at the deep end.
Some sink some swim but playing prospect makes more sense that has beens and never will bes

Utter incompetence and utter madness.

This is an honest question and have no idea the answer, but has the preference to not blood players not come from Kiss or been a long running Ulster issue predating Kiss's involvement with the club? I ask, as it just struck me that it seems alot more players have been blooded for ireland since Kiss left the national setup (though that may well be more down to the stage of the RWC cycle rather than coaching personnel).

No, it's something that Ulster Rugby have been guilty of for many years. Long before Kiss. If anything, many more players have been blooded since the arrival of Kiss.

clivemcl wrote:Yea, you would be inclined to think he wasn't being offered a long enough contract, and Bristol offered longer and more job security. But that doesn't seem right. With 18 months left, I can't imagine UR have made any commitments or otherwise regarding the likelihood of him extending.

No, it looks to me like a combination of a player getting an opportunity to play back home (a la iHumph), and a player who has become disenchanted with the club and it's setup.

Could be a combination of things. It's just difficult to believe Tuohy would want to move if he was happy here.

The failure to blood young players from the academy has been a long standing issue throughout the professional era.

It has been even worse since the days of Matt Williams onwards

On the Tuohy thing been on the blower and looks like you guys are right basically not happy here, combined with an opportunity to go home.
Goes with what I said about him earlier about not looking happy for some time.
Apparently the difference between Tuohy as opposed to Stevenson and iHumph is we had no need of their services going forward, we still wanted to keep Tuohy.

Grates that the person primarily responsible for the environment comes forward to express regret.

With the fall off of Wilsons form we now have 2 big gaps in the squad, for next year, and, currently, a commitment to only sign 1 Project payer - if we find the right one.
Maybe we could try the youngsters - just a thought

Considering the number of players who have left Ulster due to Clarke, surely some of that is getting back to someone somewhere who is saying he needs to go?

Wild idea but could Ulster be trying to force Nuciforas hand over Pienaar and hoping he says they need a lock so they can get Pienaar for longer?

That is interesting but false, as I think you know

However I have heard we offered to only sign a Project 8 for next year and no other NIQ players so we went into the season with only
Coetzee, Piatau, Pienaer and a No 8 project and in addition we would not replace Piatau with another NIQ player the following year.
So in 2018-19 Coetzee and Pienaer would be the only NIQ players + 2 Projects (8 (2nd year),1 (1st year))

We were turned down by Nucifora.

I was suggesting it as it made more sense than letting a player go who's services we require, kinda like we criticised Nucifora for doing

So our injured medical joker went to Cardiff and played two games before getting banned for 6 weeks:

Anton

Imagine if that happened while he was with us.

Tommy Bowe is doing a Facebook Q&A on Pundit Arenas page at 4.30 if anyone wants to interrogate him

Can some on ask him why Clarke seems to be a total d!ck

Some possible good news.....maybe.
Was told that the IQ sh will be either marmion or blade.

toml wrote:Can some on ask him why Clarke seems to be a total d!ck

Will do and Ill let him know its on your behalf

Munchkin wrote:So our injured medical joker went to Cardiff and played two games before getting banned for 6 weeks:

Anton

Imagine if that happened while he was with us.

At least he got on the pitch for Cardiff - never fit enough to do that for us.

Another example of Ulsters reluctance to play youngsters.
We would rather sign foreigners unfit to play than give youngsters a chance

carpet baboon wrote:Some possible good news.....maybe.
Was told that the IQ sh will be either marmion or blade.

To be honest it has to be otherwise we are up Poopie creek without a paddle

geoff999rugby wrote:

Munchkin wrote:So our injured medical joker went to Cardiff and played two games before getting banned for 6 weeks:

Anton

Imagine if that happened while he was with us.

At least he got on the pitch for Cardiff - never fit enough to do that for us.

Another example of Ulsters reluctance to play youngsters.
We would rather sign foreigners unfit to play than give youngsters a chance

Anton not getting game time worked out well for us, otherwise Kane might never have got his chance.

I always figured it had to be either Marmion or Blade for Nucifora to be so ruthless. These ducks surely were in a row for Nucifora. Whoever it is, must obviously have expressed their interest before Nucifora made the call on Pienaar.

If it is either of them, I would at least feel slightly better about the situation.

I watched one game where Blade played and thought he looked great - so whats the general feeling, which of the two has the higher ability ceiling? Or is it too early to tell with Blade?

I would go for Blade.

wolfball wrote:

geoff999rugby wrote:Don't get me wrong Treadwell may come good but he is nowhere near ready - no further on than Donnan or Thompson.

As for giving players a go - it seems an Ulster disease not to try youngsters out not just this coaching set up.

If it was any other province Donnan, Thompson, Rea and Dow  would have half a dozen matches under their belt from this year and last.

We would rather play 35 year olds who are finished or play players in their mid twenties who are never going to be good enough - Mulholland and Joyce for example.
Or waste of spaces like Windsor. While I am at it why is Murphy at the club.

If Ah You, Herbst and Lutton had not been injured Kane would have got nowhere near the 1st XV  and would probably have gone the way of Bealham.

Even saw it on here - the reluctance to play Herron and some saying Pienaer should be 10.
You never find out which players are good enough unless you throw them in at the deep end.
Some sink some swim but playing prospect makes more sense that has beens and never will bes

Utter incompetence and utter madness.

This is an honest question and have no idea the answer, but has the preference to not blood players not come from Kiss or been a long running Ulster issue predating Kiss's involvement with the club? I ask, as it just struck me that it seems alot more players have been blooded for ireland since Kiss left the national setup (though that may well be more down to the stage of the RWC cycle rather than coaching personnel).

I'd say Ulster are at a serious disadvantage not having a team in the top division of the AIL. Carberry was playing (& winning) with Clontarf last season. Johnny Holland had been battling it out for the last couple of seasons as well. Most of the academy players in Munster & Leinster are playing in the top division of the AIL - that is really great for hardening them up.

Sin é wrote:
I'd say Ulster are at a serious disadvantage not having a team in the top division of the AIL.

100% bang on.

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I'd say Ulster are at a serious disadvantage not having a team in the top division of the AIL.

100% bang on.

What do we do? Interfere and make all the best players play for one club so they can get up there in the AIL and compete?

I'm not overly well clued in on club level. Are the majority of Ulster players associated with any particular club? or are they spread around them all?

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I'd say Ulster are at a serious disadvantage not having a team in the top division of the AIL.

100% bang on.

Absolutely the drop is considerable

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I'd say Ulster are at a serious disadvantage not having a team in the top division of the AIL.

100% bang on.

What do we do? Interfere and make all the best players play for one club so they can get up there in the AIL and compete?

I'm not overly well clued in on club level. Are the majority of Ulster players associated with any particular club? or are they spread around them all?

Maybe get them playing for some of the Dublin clubs - which includes Lansdowne, Trinity, Old Belvedere, Clontart, UCD, Mary's and Terenure (Munster clubs are Young Munster, Cork Con & Garryowen).

Sin é wrote:

clivemcl wrote:

rodders wrote:

Sin é wrote:
I'd say Ulster are at a serious disadvantage not having a team in the top division of the AIL.

100% bang on.

What do we do? Interfere and make all the best players play for one club so they can get up there in the AIL and compete?

I'm not overly well clued in on club level. Are the majority of Ulster players associated with any particular club? or are they spread around them all?

Maybe get them playing for some of the Dublin clubs - which includes Lansdowne, Trinity, Old Belvedere, Clontart, UCD, Mary's and Terenure (Munster clubs are Young Munster, Cork Con & Garryowen).

Hilarious Sin é

It doesn't help that Ulster players are affiliated to clubs in the lower reaches of Division 2 and have no team in 1A, but the whole 'All Ireland' concept of the UBL leagues needs overhauled anyway. It is fine to have 1A and 1B on a country-wide basis but it is simply ridiculous to have teams below that traipsing around the country every Saturday. It actively turns players off from playing for their senior team because they can lose practically their whole weekend with a 700 mile round trip.
It also has to be borne in mind that Leinster have 7 and Munster 3 teams in the top division. There are no Connacht teams there and they have been churning out new players aplenty. Maybe that is because they are concentrated in Buccaneers and Galwegians? The top two leagues should be ring-fenced with say 8 Leinster, 6 Munster, 4 Ulster and 2 Connacht teams and that should be the repository for all provincial players.

Ulster is unique in that it doesn't allow schools players to play for their local clubs and that is because they refuse to tinker with the longest running rugby competition in the world - the Ulster School's Cup. Until they do the Ulster clubs do not have the strength in depth that Leinster, Munster and increasingly Connacht have, so it is not enough to concentrate the provincially contracted players in a few UBL teams, they need to prune harder if Ulster rugby is ever going to bloom.

Payne is going to be out for 3 months with a kidney injury, Joe had said that it was his back he injured against Australia and played on looks like this is what the problem is.

He's a tough SOB

Trimble also out for a couple of weeks with a tendon issue in his foot

Bloody hell. Is there anyone left. Should we be cleaning our boots in readiness?

marty2086 wrote:Payne is going to be out for 3 months with a kidney injury, Joe had said that it was his back he injured against Australia and played on looks like this is what the problem is.

He's a tough SOB

Can be serious territory to get injured in. Wish him well getting back to fitness.

Didn't Wilkinson lacerate his own kidneys tackling someone a while back?

Word elsewhere on the interwebz is that we have signed a young Saffer 10, Angus Curtis, into the academy. Don't know if he's IQ.

Don Alfonso wrote:Word elsewhere on the interwebz is that we have signed a young Saffer 10, Angus Curtis, into the academy. Don't know if he's IQ.

Apparently he's the son of David Curtis, so would be IQ. Just a rumour at the moment though.

Looks half decent, and probably better than any we have below Jackson:

I seem to remember scanning across the headings on one of the rugby sites (The 42 or Joe or one of them) and I seem to remember some commentator saying that he'd had a long talk with Nucifora about what the plans were and how they were coming along.  I didn't read the article but in the subheading was 'more exiles'.  This probably meant not less overseas IQ players but more of them being slipped in.

I'm not sure I'm in favour of that determined a specific policy, in fact I know I'm against it.  I don't mind looking abroad for a while in certain positions - but this creeping, creeping stuff could get out of hand if it's chased after as a primary source of future Internationals.  We don't want a fine selection of homegrowns getting p-issed off and missing a potential chance because foreign players are doing a few years at Province level then taking an International shirt. Well, at least I don't want that.

I believe it's already getting out of hand, Fly. Plastic Paddy's are in vogue

Aye Munch, even that lad Graham Norton now thinks he's Irish! They all want a slice of us................ except the Welsh....

That Angus lad is a decent cricketer by all accounts. Dual sport ireland international maybe?

SecretFly wrote:Aye Munch, even that lad Graham Norton now thinks he's Irish! They all want a slice of us................ except the Welsh....

The Welsh are so angry because they can't be Irish