Ulster 2016/2017

First topic message reminder :

The build up to Ulsters gloriously successful 2016/2017 campaign starts here!

Allow summer optimism to get the better of you or discuss why we are in crisis right here on this thread- before weary resignation over the quality of forwards we have sinks in once again.

It is interesting part of that clip of Curtis has NFL type rugby posts!

Looks decent but Ulster have Olding, Nelson, Herron and McPhillips with Bingham also being looked at. Surely a Saffer with a number two or three lower than 10 on the shirt is really what's required?

Ulster team and replacements to play Cardiff Blues, Saturday 3rd December, BT Sport Cardiff Arms Park (kick-off 5.15pm):
(15-9): C Piutau, T Bowe, L Marshall, S McCloskey, C Gilroy, B Herron, R Pienaar;
(1-8): K McCall, R Herring (capt), W Herbst, P Browne, F van der Merwe, I Henderson, C Henry, S Reidy;
Replacements (16-23): J Andrew, A Warwick, R Ah You, K Treadwell, C Ross, P Marshall, L Ludik, D Cave.

Think Id have liked to have seen Ludik at 15 with Piutau on the bench to see how that backline goes without him

Where's AOC this weather?

Our best centre pairing and, on paper, a very strong backrow.

Ludik is the best 15 in that side. He should have started, methinks, with Piutau on the wing.

Not confident of a win.

I think both Ludik and Piutau have played there best games this season on the wing. Ludik for me has been exceptional prior to injury. I hope this is just a case of easing him back in. Because surely he has been better than Bowe of late.

Maybe Nucifora will let us keep Ruan as a back row next year I mean he seems to be the one cleaning out our rucks anyways

What are you doing right now Ulster? They should not be back in this game at all, sloppy

Ludik you popped up just when we needed you to kid

Ulster were poor enough, but a win is a win. If say there were a few Cardiff boys who wernt playing at 100%

Not a great performance by Ulster, but very happy to get the 5 points. All the better when you think that's our first game in 4 weeks, and it was away.

Cardiff were very poor, although they had some bug in the camp. Not the type planted by Aussies o0

That TJ needs a boot up the arse.

We will need to massively improve on this seasons performance to come away with a win next week.

Not seen the game yet, but by the sounds of it we wernt great but Cardiff were worse.
2players yellowed and we still score 5 away from home. Hopefully corner has been turned

The officials were woeful, the Henderson yellow was baffling as there were about 20 other tackles with arms or hands over the shoulder and not so much as a penalty. The number of times the ref called use it at a ruck and didnt penalise the scrum half when they didnt use it was embarrassing and the number of other offences right under their noses is worrying

I counted Marty and he actually gave Cardiff over ten seconds after calling 'use it' at least twice.
My favourite was the knock on from the Cardiff maul where the touch judge indicated it had been knocked back despite it being a clear knockon. The TMO then corrected them immediately as it was so obvious.
The keystone officials.

Pete330v2 wrote:I counted Marty and he actually gave Cardiff over ten seconds after calling 'use it' at least twice.
My favourite was the knock on from the Cardiff maul where the touch judge indicated it had been knocked back despite it being a clear knockon. The TMO then corrected them immediately as it was so obvious.
The keystone officials.

There were a few like that, when Henderson was off when their maul went down close to the line Henry kicked the ball from an offside position and the same touch judge gave a knock on by Bowe when it had clearly been knocked on by the Cardiff player first.

Gethin Jenkins also seemed to take a few scrums down in front of him and nothing given

The officials weren't great but Cardiff supporters will undoubtedly be thinking the same. They didn't spoil the game or change the result and unlike Peyper weren't risking player welfare.

Ulster had Henderson and McCloskey, Cardiff didn't have Williams and that was a major difference in the teams, but in truth it was Pienaar who again showed his class and why having him inside young 10s like Herron is great for development. Thought Herron's kicking from hand was very good and his tackling improved - he is definitely worth investing in.

It's gone very quiet in here despite the unexpected away win in Wales. Should we not be buzzing about how fantastic we are again
After that win it simply shows how central Pienaar is to everything we do and how headless we'll be without him.

Also, I only just noticed that Anton Peikrishvili who we had for a sleepover only played 2 games for The Blues before receiving a red card and a ban for biting. Did we not feed him or something?

Think we are all trying to figure out whats going on with the Tuohy move and preparing ourselves for the walloping coming our way on Saturday

I heard Clarke stole Antons lunch money

There was me thinking everyone was wondering how to convince Doak and Clarke to follow Dan with equally immediate effect

No we've resigned ourselves we are stuck with them both for life

Pete330v2 wrote:
After that win it simply shows how central Pienaar is to everything we do and how headless we'll be without him.

Has Pienaar negotiated a deal elsewhere yet for next season?

Maybe there is some hope with Marmion and McGrath etc. coming on well the IRFU will compromise on this one, or has the ship sailed already?

Oh I do ever so love a good O'Brian novel! Keep going, rodders. Get to the storm quick though. I love the storms.

marty2086 wrote:No we've resigned ourselves we are stuck with them both for life

You see people in this country used to be good of getting rid of people they don't like surely we could find a couple of guys to help us out

rodders wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:
After that win it simply shows how central Pienaar is to everything we do and how headless we'll be without him.

Has Pienaar negotiated a deal elsewhere yet for next season?

Maybe there is some hope with Marmion and McGrath etc. coming on well the IRFU will compromise on this one, or has the ship sailed already?

I'm still convinced there will be a u-turn Rodders. It's so illogical and downright stupid to let Ruan go and if the IRFU fail to see that then we'll know the lunatics have taken over the asylum.

Pete330v2 wrote:It's gone very quiet in here despite the unexpected away win in Wales. Should we not be buzzing about how fantastic we are again  

In truth - Cardiff were pretty dire. Their tackling was actually shameful at some points and they couldn't catch the ball for love nor money.

Ulster should be annoyed they let them back into it for a while.

rapidsnowman wrote:

Pete330v2 wrote:It's gone very quiet in here despite the unexpected away win in Wales. Should we not be buzzing about how fantastic we are again  

In truth - Cardiff were pretty dire. Their tackling was actually shameful at some points and they couldn't catch the ball for love nor money.

Ulster should be annoyed they let them back into it for a while.

Cardiff were utter tom-kite. We should have put a cricket score on them but in fairness they did liven up a little in the second half. Ulster lack that ruthless streak to really put teams to the sword when they are perfectly capable of doing so. We lack really strong leadership on or off the pitch that we haven't seen since Muller left.

So, mood is at a low. Perhaps lower than it has been for many years. Big European game coming up against the Top14 leaders. Most consider we have no chance of getting out of the group anyway. Some are just hoping we show a bit of better form and don't face an embarrassing loss on home turf.

That said, we are Ulster fans, and as such we are one impressive scalp away from suddenly expecting silverware again.

As unlikely as it may well be, a surprise win against Clermont could cataclysmically change the attitude and mood of this season, and who knows what that might spur on. Dare we hope for a Christmas miracle?

Won't surprise me, I think we'll stuff them.

In-ten-sity.

Stoke up the engine and, even if the parts aren't fully in sync, just keep pushing forward with an intensity.  It's when you stop for a breather and allow rugby to take over that these swish sexy sides from France and England take over.

Munster players only recently (through Stander) admitted that they are only now finding that depth of competitiveness within them that Foley had been looking for all the time.  They only found that hotness/almost a hate with his passing.

Irish Provinces have been taking a breather these last few years in terms of 'fight'.  Time to climb aboard again and mimic the Irish team.  Every player challenged to do his bit - no passengers.  Everyone makes the physical commitment to get stuck in for 80.

We will probably fight, just like we did in Glasgow. May even win the game. I want consistency. Not the occasional spirited fight by a pack that seemingly chooses when it wants to compete, and when it wants to go through the motions.

Ulster don't have a winning culture.

Ah it's technical fight, Munch; remembering-your-lines fight. It's a mood induced by doing processes at a higher tempo. But I just mean f**king street-fight hitting and balls. I think probably all Irish Provinces have been missing that ingredient in recent years. Time to impose our physicality again - and in Irish terms that's always been a more sinewy, raw emotional involvement than just the idea of bulking up and hitting hard at the right times.

Ulster can do street fighting very well. It's that sort of fight I was referring to when I mentioned Glasgow. It wasn't a technically brilliant performance from Ulster, but it was spirited. That's what I want to see from Ulster more consistently. Not some of the prancing around the park we have been witness to for the majority of games.

Ulster don't do games at a slow tempo. Well, they do but they don't do it well. We need to be playing at a high tempo to win games. Problem with that is the pack has to keep up ...

I don't blame the players. I blame the coaching staff and a lack of clear leadership. Sometimes the team looks a bit lost. When plan A isn't working, what ever plan A is, there isn't a plan B.

I tend to judge how a team plays over a series of games, rather than one-off performances. Ulster have been poor. I do have a little hope that things can turn around, but it's a fading hope.

We may well scrap and given them a game, and maybe even win but we will be well beaten in France.
We have no realistic chance of qualifying 0 not least because of that brain fart by Marshall denying us one of the few chances of a bonus point.

Where we are will defined by the two Pro12 games sandwiches between the European games
Leinster and Scarlets away.
Win both and the top 4 is ours
Win 1 it is a battle
Win none and probably the top 6 but not the top 4

With Herbst signing a new contract here are the other ones up for renewal

Ricky Lutton
Andy Warwick
John Andrew
Pete Browne
Alan O'Connor
Chris Henry
Clive Ross
Roger Wilson
Paul Marshall
Paddy Jackson
Sam Windsor
Pete Nelson - big doubt re injury
Andrew Trimble

The ones with strike are the ones I would not renew.
One things for certain need to sign Paddy asap - Saints have been sniffing around.
The others up for re signing I believe are a near certainty

As to NIQ they are going to be in very short supply next year - I reckon a couple of Projects at most.

Academy players in their last year.

Michael Lagan (Prop)
Craig Trenier (Prop)
Alex Thompson (Lock)
David Busby (Wing/FB)
Jack Owens (Wing/FB)

geoff I notice you say not to resign Lutton. Hes always looked to be a solid player, if there were coaching changes do you think he would be worth resigning because I can see him ending up at another province as a squad player if we don't resign him

Is Nelsons injury looking like a career ender? I noticed its over a year now since he got injured

Team for tomorrow

(15-9): C Piutau, T Bowe, L Marshall, S McCloskey, L Ludik, P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): K McCall, R Best (capt), W Herbst, P Browne, R Diack, I Henderson, C Henry, S Reidy;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, R Ah You, K Treadwell, C Ross, P Marshall, D Cave, J Stockdale.

Diack in the second row with Henderson in the backrow?

Are we doing this to piss off the IRFU now?

Lutton has Herbst, Ah You and Kane ahead of him now and we have high hopes of Simpson and Trenier.
Lutton is 30 and isn't getting anybetter

geoff999rugby wrote:Lutton has Herbst, Ah You and Kane ahead of him now and we have high hopes of Simpson and Trenier.
Lutton is 30 and isn't getting anybetter

Given the attritional nature of the position though is it not wise to keep him around?

Is Simpson not a LH rather than a TH though?

Increasingly these days props, at a young age, are not selected at LH or TH and are tried on both sides before focusing on one side.
You may well be right re Simpson but at the start of the year he was pencilled in as 4th choice TH, ahead of Kane.

The general rule of thumb appears to be 3 players you trust plus the kids

Currently that is
LH Warwick, McCall, Black
TH Herbst, Ah You, Kane, Lutton
Kids (other than Kane) - Simpson, Trenier, Cooper, Lagan

With Warwick ability to play TH effectively we would be keeping Lutton to be 5th choice TH

marty2086 wrote:Diack in the second row with Henderson in the backrow?

Are we doing this to piss off the IRFU now?

I think it is a simple realisation that without Henderson in the back row we will be destroyed at the breakdown.
The drop in standard from de Merwe to Diack in the 2nd row is considerably less than the drop from Henderson to Diack at 6.
I suspect with Tuohy and de Merwe both away, Treadwell being disappointing, and limit on non IQ signings next year, Diack will be seen more and more in the row
Next year the Lock pecking order could be Henderson, AOC, Browne, Diack, Treadwell.
Some serious training required re lineout calling

Simpsons not exactly young in sporting terms, hes 26 though I know hes not been in the ranks for a long time

We do need to start pulling the trigger on some of the young guys sooner especially in the forwards, if we can't train them to get up to standards then maybe a bit of game time is the education and environment they need

marty2086 wrote:Team for tomorrow

(15-9): C Piutau, T Bowe, L Marshall, S McCloskey, L Ludik, P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): K McCall, R Best (capt), W Herbst, P Browne, R Diack, I Henderson, C Henry, S Reidy;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, R Ah You, K Treadwell, C Ross, P Marshall, D Cave, J Stockdale.

Ludik is a better FB than Piutau. Piutau is a better wing than Ludik. Diack at Lock .... Oh dear

Munchkin wrote:

marty2086 wrote:Team for tomorrow

(15-9): C Piutau, T Bowe, L Marshall, S McCloskey, L Ludik, P Jackson, R Pienaar;
(1-8): K McCall, R Best (capt), W Herbst, P Browne, R Diack, I Henderson, C Henry, S Reidy;
Replacements (16-23): R Herring, A Warwick, R Ah You, K Treadwell, C Ross, P Marshall, D Cave, J Stockdale.

Ludik is a better FB than Piutau. Piutau is a better wing than Ludik. Diack at Lock .... Oh dear

I really don't get it, the All Blacks knew that Charlie-boy was better employed on the wing and Ludik is best as FB. Head scratching time but still a good side to at least give the Frenchies a game of it.

Its a little worrying the game hasn't sold out. Is the air of disenfranchisement around Ulster that bad that one of the top clubs in town doesn't sell out?

Why would you let Paul Marshall go Geoff?

With Pienaar going surely its best to keep him, even if its just as 2nd/3rd choice?

Kingshu wrote:Why would you let Paul Marshall go Geoff?

With Pienaar going surely its best to keep him, even if its just as 2nd/3rd choice?

Paul Marshall has never been close to the required standard, may as well get one of the Connacht 3 in as starter and bring on young players as the others

toml wrote:

Kingshu wrote:Why would you let Paul Marshall go Geoff?

With Pienaar going surely its best to keep him, even if its just as 2nd/3rd choice?

Paul Marshall has never been close to the required standard, may as well get one of the Connacht 3 in as starter and bring on young players as the others

This is nonsense - Ireland caps aren't handed out if someone isn't "close to the required standard".
Marshall isn't in Pienaar's class (few are), but the difference between him and Marmion, Blade or Cooney is marginal. Ulster need to start securing better ball in the pack, and then they could potentially get by without Pienaar.

To me Blade and Marmion are a lot better than Marshall.

In an ideal world we could cope if our pack was on the front foot and Marshall could do a decent job.
Sadly that is not going to be the case - our player pool simply isn't good enough.

I would like to see something like Marmion/Blade, Heaney, Shanahan and then the two young kids who look the best local 9's we have every had in the professional era - not that there is a lot of competition.

Marshall is not a smart player and as he gets older the pace will decline and without that he is nowhere near good enough.

Marmion hasn't been as effective behind a de-powered Connacht scrum this season and hasn't looked comfortable at Test level - I'll reserve judgement until he's getting the service that Pienaar has been getting.

Marshall made a spectacular mistake against Bordeaux costing the losing bonus point, but equally last season he was the only one who had the presence of mind to drop-kick a third try conversion to facilitate getting a TBP.

His shortcoming is not that he is stupid but rather far too attack minded behind an iffy pack, and that is something I would also level against Marmion!