Wales - ????

Where do Wales go from here?

Losing to a 2nd string England in the fashion they have is a shocking result.

Ne Zealand, fact. Thread over now?

Might be a good wake up call for them. A together team will use that to fire themselves up with a trip over to the world champions.

TightHEAD wrote:Where do Wales go from here?

from bad to worse most probs.

With today's result. Do all you Welsh fans still think Gatland should be the Lions Coach next year?

Honestly I think were complete garbage at the moment. I'm angry watching them, we were poor in the 6 nations with a final game hammering of Italy papering over the cracks. I think Gatland is picking too many players regardless of form, and effort, their totally lacking energy, urgency and ideas.

For the first time since Gatland took charge I'd be fairly happy if he got the sack, I always tried to be realistic and accept that Gatland had us playing to our potential and was happy that we had him as coach. At the moment I think Wales are playing rubbish and he has run out of ideas, and taken Wales as far as he can. The harsh reality is he has total power and can simply shrug off bad results as if they don't matter, but he'd never get away with this cráp if he was coach of New Zealand.

I fully expect Wales to get wiped off the park in New Zealand, we've got no chance out there. Hopefully we can sack Gatland then and rebuild from scratch.

Who would you have instead?

Dai Young has done very well at Wasps but a lot of that's come from buying in anyone he wants.

yappysnap.

I really do not know who i would have? I just think that Gatland? yes he as been good for Wales since he took over the coaching of the squad.....I just believe that he as took Wales as far as he can.

Yes he won the Lions tour last time. That was then and not now. Wales seem to be going backward just lately.

Maybe their is too many players who is not being challenged for his place in the Welsh team, so tend to not even try to play at their best every time they are picked. I just do not know.

Cheers Wales for making it an easy decision not to watch the NZ tour. If they can't get past a second rate England side there's not a snowball's chance in hell they'll get a shred of joy down under. Shame as it's not every day you get to watch your side tour the champs but I simply cannot be asked to tune in to yet another abject stop-start excuse of a performance. There's absolutely no point devoting the time to watch this clueless, excruciatingly predictable Welsh side get whitewashed and humiliated. England seconds would have put a cricket score on today if they'd had a proper kicker.

Might as well watch the Euros. Sad statement that I'd rather watch the Welsh football team over the rugby but there you go.

Gatland is trying to pull off an ambush on New Zealand.

There just seems to be too much of a season's long whimper from Welsh players.... surely he's setting up something much more convincing at least once against New Zealand. He's virtual dictator - he calls the shots in Wales - he's had his time to plan and prepare, we all know how demanding he is on the fitness and stamina.

There's got to be more to Wales. There's just gotta.....

SecretFly wrote:Gatland is trying to pull off an ambush on New Zealand.

There just seems to be too much of a season's long whimper from Welsh players.... surely he's setting up something much more convincing at least once against New Zealand.  He's virtual dictator - he calls the shots in Wales - he's had his time to plan and prepare, we all know how demanding he is on the fitness and stamina.

There's got to be more to Wales.  There's just gotta.....

Why?
There isn't. Wales will not play to their potential again until Gatland has moved on. Very easy to understand and happens all the time. The coaches are stale and can get nothing more from this team. They don't see it and are not able to admit it. Gatland has never shown any ability to adapt and Howley and Mcbryde aren't good enough - never have been.

Problem is the WRU is just as stubborn and will do nothing until it's too late. Actually it's already too late.

Maybe Ireland and Wales could swap coaches for this tour. Whoever does better gets to coach the Lions and pick all the England players.....

majesticimperialman wrote:With today's result. Do all you Welsh fans still think Gatland should be the Lions Coach next year?

Still think?! There's not many, if any, Welsh fans who want Gats to be Lions coach at all. It would do is a massive favour of he wasn't. Someone else's turn, thanks.

majesticimperialman wrote:With today's result. Do all you Welsh fans still think Gatland should be the Lions Coach next year?

Before todays game did many of us want him to have it anyway?

I certainly didn't, if he is to stay with us until the next WC then I want him to commit all his time and effort to us not spend a year out wth the Lins.

For me the WRU have roughly 12-18 months to make a decision.

In that time IF and its a huge IF but IF we move on and progress under Gatland then he'll be kept on and take us through to the World Cup.

However if as many fear we carry on going backwards then they have to give any potential new coach a decent timescale to try and get us into a shape ready for a World Cup.

No matter which way they decide Howley and McBryde must go now, dont even let them get on the plane tomorrow.

offload wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Gatland is trying to pull off an ambush on New Zealand.

There just seems to be too much of a season's long whimper from Welsh players.... surely he's setting up something much more convincing at least once against New Zealand.  He's virtual dictator - he calls the shots in Wales - he's had his time to plan and prepare, we all know how demanding he is on the fitness and stamina.

There's got to be more to Wales.  There's just gotta.....

Why?  
There isn't.  Wales will not play to their potential again until Gatland has moved on.  Very easy to understand and happens all the time.  The coaches are stale and can get nothing more from this team.  They don't see it and are not able to admit it.  Gatland has never shown any ability to adapt and Howley and Mcbryde aren't good enough - never have been.

Problem is the WRU is just as stubborn and will do nothing until it's too late.  Actually it's already too late.

Dodger signed him up till after the 2019 RWC. Great eh?

A 3-0 whitewash was predicted by many anyway but if its on the wrong end of 3 heavy scorelines and very little offered back from us well that way well force their hand.

However it wouldn't surprise me if we have 3 gallant defeats which will paper over all the cracks and all will be seen as fine again.

bedfordwelsh wrote:For me the WRU have roughly 12-18 months to make a decision.

In that time IF and its a huge IF but IF we move on and progress under Gatland then he'll be kept on and take us through to the World Cup.

However if as many fear we carry on going backwards then they have to give any potential new coach a decent timescale to try and get us into a shape ready for a World Cup.

No matter which way they decide Howley and McBryde must go now, dont even let them get on the plane tomorrow.

Can't rock the gravy boat, mun.

Evening boys -
To me, the calls to fire, hang, geld, and dismember Gatland is a wee bit of an over-reaction. In the RWC Wales were terrific considering the injuries. This past Six Nations means fairly little considering every team was tired or in transition. Like everyone else, Wales were up and down. England just barely hung on to beat........Wales. If the match was 10 minutes longer who knows the outcome.

So finally one crap loss in a match with little meaning except making money, and the Principality is ready to excommunicate their finest coach in recent memory. Gatland had a poor stretch before. I would ride it out for more than one match before looking elsewhere.

If the match was 10 minutes longer who knows the outcome.

Yeah but then England would have been back to 15 on the pitch and the defensive sets re-aligned.

As for today - which Welshman was going to bust a get then get injured and miss the tour and quite a few of the English had nowt to lose.

Wouldn't take too much from that result.

Wales normally start slow in the game then get faster as the game goes on. Today they started fast in the first half then slowed down. Why?

No matter what excuse Wales wan't to come up with. If they play like that against NZ. It will be a very bad tour for Wales. very bad tour indeed.

doctor_grey wrote:Evening boys -
To me, the calls to fire, hang, geld, and dismember Gatland is a wee bit of an over-reaction.  In the RWC Wales were terrific considering the injuries.  This past Six Nations means fairly little considering every team was tired or in transition.  Like everyone else, Wales were up and down.  England just barely hung on to beat........Wales.  If the match was 10 minutes longer who knows the outcome.  

So finally one crap loss in a match with little meaning except making money, and the Principality is ready to excommunicate their finest coach in recent memory.  Gatland had a poor stretch before.  I would ride it out for more than one match before looking elsewhere.  

Doc,
So it's a wee bit of an over-reaction, and then we should ride it out for more than one match? How many more?

It's a long time since Wales played well and we were certainly not "terrific" in the WC. Scraped past an imploding England, couldn't score against 13 Aussies and outplayed by SA. Truth is the Welsh team has been treading water for several years - no visible signs of any development. It's not one crap loss at all.

So what will happen, nothing. The Gatland apologists rally around and we have another humiliating summer tour. We will keep doing the same old stuff and get the same old results. It would be different if we didn't have the players, but we still have a lot of experienced international talent playing well. The current coaching team is failing to make the most of them. We are crying out for a change.

TrailApe wrote:

If the match was 10 minutes longer who knows the outcome.

Yeah but then England would have been back to 15 on the pitch and the defensive sets re-aligned.

As for today - which Welshman was going to bust a get then get injured and miss the tour and quite a few of the English had nowt to lose.

Wouldn't take too much from that result.

You couldn't be more wrong. If you seriously think that one Welsh player today wasn't trying you are deluded. That was as good as this team can deliver under this coaching team.

bedfordwelsh wrote:A 3-0 whitewash was predicted by many anyway but if its on the wrong end of 3 heavy scorelines and very little offered back from us well that way well force their hand.

However it wouldn't surprise me if we have 3 gallant defeats which will paper over all the cracks and all will be seen as fine again.

I can see the headlines now;
"Brave Wales"
"Courageous Wales"
"Unlucky, but tired Wales"

followed closely by;

"Gatland ponders the Autumn Internationals.... in Wales, for Wales, by Wales"
"Top 10 Welsh rugby player hairdoos in Wales".

Only in Wales eh?

doctor_grey wrote:Evening boys -
To me, the calls to fire, hang, geld, and dismember Gatland is a wee bit of an over-reaction.  In the RWC Wales were terrific considering the injuries.  This past Six Nations means fairly little considering every team was tired or in transition.  Like everyone else, Wales were up and down.  England just barely hung on to beat........Wales.  If the match was 10 minutes longer who knows the outcome.  

So finally one crap loss in a match with little meaning except making money, and the Principality is ready to excommunicate their finest coach in recent memory.  Gatland had a poor stretch before.  I would ride it out for more than one match before looking elsewhere.  

Then it would be soccer, mun.
As for the RWC; can't forget that Wales couldn't bag a try against 13 man Australia.

majesticimperialman wrote:Wales normally start slow in the game then get faster as the game goes on. Today they started fast in the first half then slowed down. Why?

No matter what excuse Wales wan't to come up with. If they play like that against NZ. It will be a very bad tour for Wales. very bad tour indeed.

It is possible fitness was an issue, frankly all the Welsh regions have been awful and their season finished 3 weeks ago which might of taken a little of the boys fitness away, though regardless that second half was truly pathetic.

majesticimperialman wrote:yappysnap.

I really do not know who i would have? I just think that Gatland? yes he as been good for Wales since he took over the coaching of the squad.....I just believe that he as took Wales as far as he can.

Yes he won the Lions tour last time. That was then and not now. Wales seem to be going backward just lately.

Maybe their is too many players who is not being challenged for his place in the Welsh team, so tend to not even try to play at their best every time they are picked. I just do not know.

There are plenty of players to challenge certain positions. Well most really. The problem is cement head not picking them, not players not being challenged.

To suggest players don't try to play at their best for their country is very ignorant though.

yappysnap wrote:Who would you have instead?

Dai Young has done very well at Wasps but a lot of that's come from buying in anyone he wants.

Dave Rennie from Auckland would be the best candidate.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:A 3-0 whitewash was predicted by many anyway but if its on the wrong end of 3 heavy scorelines and very little offered back from us well that way well force their hand.

However it wouldn't surprise me if we have 3 gallant defeats which will paper over all the cracks and all will be seen as fine again.

I can see the headlines now;
"Brave Wales"
"Courageous Wales"
"Unlucky, but tired Wales"

followed closely by;

"Gatland ponders the Autumn Internationals.... in Wales, for Wales, by Wales"
"Top 10 Welsh rugby player hairdoos in Wales".

Only in Wales eh?

Dave,

Unfortunately it sounds all to true and predictable. All will be fine again and the muppet Howells will still think he's a top notch sports journo.

Cardiff Dave wrote:

bedfordwelsh wrote:A 3-0 whitewash was predicted by many anyway but if its on the wrong end of 3 heavy scorelines and very little offered back from us well that way well force their hand.

However it wouldn't surprise me if we have 3 gallant defeats which will paper over all the cracks and all will be seen as fine again.

I can see the headlines now;
"Brave Wales"
"Courageous Wales"
"Unlucky, but tired Wales"

followed closely by;

"Gatland ponders the Autumn Internationals.... in Wales, for Wales, by Wales"
"Top 10 Welsh rugby player hairdoos in Wales".

Only in Wales eh?

And also links to:

"Treherbert man sets shellsuit on fire trying to smoke cat"
"Top 10 places to buy a [insert anything here. Anything at all. There's a new one every day] in Wales"
"Barrack Obama mentioned Wales... We must write a full page spread about it"
"Catherine Zeta Jones went to a Supermarket"

I have to say its looking grim for Wales. It smacks of a stodgy coaching team that is doing the same old, same old and expecting things to change. Its like continuing to swing a golf club in the same bad way and expect every shot to be perfect. Wales need to find a current world class coach with international experience. That loss on Saturday showed that as confident as they were in getting the win against several second string England players they haven't actually got the game/skill to do it.

I'm not so sure Gatland is to blame, it's more akin to the Welsh rugby structure. Our regions look amateur in most ways possible compared to english and Irish clubs. The England players are fresh from their clubs and looked pretty good with ball in hand - they showed no signs of easing off either. The Welsh players looked and played as if they've had a few weeks off. The top-down approach is past its sell-by date and Gatland can't work with it for much longer. We need a bottom-up approach. A good start would be to lift the current restrictions on the Welsh regions and carry on trying to bring our internationals back to them.

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm not so sure Gatland is to blame, it's more akin to the Welsh rugby structure. Our regions look amateur in most ways possible compared to english and Irish clubs. The England players are fresh from their clubs and looked pretty good with ball in hand - they showed no signs of easing off either. The Welsh players looked and played as if they've had a few weeks off. The top-down approach is past its sell-by date and Gatland can't work with it for much longer. We need a bottom-up approach. A good start would be to lift the current restrictions on the Welsh regions and carry on trying to bring our internationals back to them.

What restrictions are those Mikey? The only restrictions the regions have are debts and lack of funding, any suggestions as to how that will be lifted?

I do think the game they've developed is thus.

"We're tough to beat but if you work us out, you'll beat us everytime"

Its Gatland's strategy and to be fair its won him 3 6N titles and a Lions series to AUS and a respectable 4th and QF exit in 2 RWCs so its proven to be successful for NH rugby.

However I do wonder if a more balanced ball playing strategy would work as in not the old traditional.....

Phase 1 crash ball - Roberts
Phase 2 crash ball - First flanker
Phase 3 crash ball - another forward
Phase 4 - 10 looks up, no major net gains, kick away.

PS - if a player sees a gap in phase 1 or 2... forget about it. We're going back into the trenches.

Seagultaf wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:I'm not so sure Gatland is to blame, it's more akin to the Welsh rugby structure. Our regions look amateur in most ways possible compared to english and Irish clubs. The England players are fresh from their clubs and looked pretty good with ball in hand - they showed no signs of easing off either. The Welsh players looked and played as if they've had a few weeks off. The top-down approach is past its sell-by date and Gatland can't work with it for much longer. We need a bottom-up approach. A good start would be to lift the current restrictions on the Welsh regions and carry on trying to bring our internationals back to them.

What restrictions are those Mikey? The only restrictions the regions have are debts and lack of funding, any suggestions as to how that will be lifted?

Those are two restrictions. The other one being too many mediocre players flooding the teams. That can be addressed both by raising the NWQ limit and bringing back Welsh internationals as said. I don't have any suggestions to rectify it, I'm just making an observation. People seem to think it's a team Wales problem, it's a bottom-up problem as our teams are more amateur than others in Europe. And tbh with you I don't think it's a coincidence that England have by far the best club teams in Europe and the best international team in Europe this year.

Shifty wrote:

yappysnap wrote:Who would you have instead?

Dai Young has done very well at Wasps but a lot of that's come from buying in anyone he wants.

Dave Rennie from Auckland would be the best candidate.

Wish Dave Rennie did come from Auckland (we will just box on with Tana).

From an outsiders observations, just maybe this whole business of kiwis and Aussies taking prime coaching positions in the UK is as much a hindrance as a help to youre national teams kicking on just that little bit more.
Sure Jones, Cotter, Schmidt and Gatland can coach, but in the inferno of fighting/playing for your country would not the players dig in with their own self patriotic pride and consistently pull out just that little bit more for a coach who is one of their own.

If a non Maori coached the Maori All Blacks, the players wouldnt even get off the bus.

offload wrote:

doctor_grey wrote:Evening boys -
To me, the calls to fire, hang, geld, and dismember Gatland is a wee bit of an over-reaction.  In the RWC Wales were terrific considering the injuries.  This past Six Nations means fairly little considering every team was tired or in transition.  Like everyone else, Wales were up and down.  England just barely hung on to beat........Wales.  If the match was 10 minutes longer who knows the outcome.  

So finally one crap loss in a match with little meaning except making money, and the Principality is ready to excommunicate their finest coach in recent memory.  Gatland had a poor stretch before.  I would ride it out for more than one match before looking elsewhere.  

Doc,
So it's a wee bit of an over-reaction, and then we should ride it out for more than one match?  How many more?

At least until the next time you play England...............

This is pro rugby. Everyone is paid to do what they do. They have bills to pay. Not sure it's about pride and passion for the flag anymore. It's more about playing your best to keep the cheques hitting the doormat.

I agree with Doc.

I wouldn't read too much into this. I think both teams were going through the motions - just England tried a bit harder as there were a few players playing for a seat on the plane to Oz.

What I would be concerned with however, is Dan Biggar's recent attitude towards officials. His reaction on Sunday was, quite frankly, pathetic. He's done it a few times now and I believe that one or two of the other players need to tell him in no uncertain terms, to wind his neck in.

I didn't see the game but Biggar...................... don't know what he did....but the guy does always look like he's had perhaps one too many Red Bulls in the hours before a game. Seriously, he always looks just a little too keyed up.
There was a movie called Scanners many years ago now. Warning Biggar

SecretFly wrote:I didn't see the game but Biggar......................  don't know what he did....but the guy does always look like he's had perhaps one too many Red Bulls in the hours before a game.  Seriously, he always looks just a little too keyed up.  
There was a movie called Scanners many years ago now.  Warning Biggar

Got burnt by Bakkies taking the mick when doing a conversion in a baa baas match.

In the end though what works for some.

I mean JW had to wear incontinence pants for his entire career given his stance, yet it worked for him.

Biggar is yet to be banned for abusing officials and is nowhere near that point. I can understand his frustration given it was a clear knock-on, however Biggar would have probably got stick one way or another if he didn't complain, just like the time Finn Russell almost broke his neck and it was all Biggar's fault... Some of you should be more concerned about Hartley abusing officials, the guy who's actually been banned for it .

mikey_dragon wrote:Biggar is yet to be banned for abusing officials and is nowhere near that point. I can understand his frustration given it was a clear knock-on, however Biggar would have probably got stick one way or another if he didn't complain, just like the time Finn Russell almost broke his neck and it was all Biggar's fault... Some of you should be more concerned about Hartley abusing officials, the guy who's actually been banned for it .

No it wasn't, which was why the try was awarded. Even WalesOnline agrees.

Bigger behaves like a petulant child at times. His attitude would be much more suited to soccer, he's a prat.

Quick question... I know there is such a thing as a deliberate knock on... but was the fact it went backwards meaning it was no longer an offence... i.e. because it went back?

fa0019 wrote:Quick question... I know there is such a thing as a deliberate knock on... but was the fact it went backwards meaning it was no longer an offence... i.e. because it went back?

Correct.

There was no offence as the call went backwards, it's that simple.

Sgt_Pooly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Quick question... I know there is such a thing as a deliberate knock on... but was the fact it went backwards meaning it was no longer an offence... i.e. because it went back?

Correct.

There was no offence as the call went backwards, it's that simple.

If the ball had gone forward it would have been a penalty.

FWIW I remember Mikey picking up on another incident about a knock on. If he was referring to what I think he was - Biggar getting done for a knock on - then from the angle available on the TV coverage I'd agree that I thought the ball went backwards and it should not have been called.

Tbh nobody has seen the 'knock-on' close up and everyone is saying specifically what they feel like. Nobody can make out from the replay whether Cole knocked the ball marginally forwards or backwards but the English will recite what's in their favour while the Welsh will recite what's in theirs. Typical 606 bias culture.

Not that it makes even a remote bit of difference as total mediocrity is what cost Wales the game and not poor officiating.

Biggar should learn how to kick a phecking ball into touch before steaming off at others for their shortcomings.

Knowsit17 wrote:Tbh nobody has seen the 'knock-on' close up and everyone is saying specifically what they feel like. Nobody can make out from the replay whether Cole knocked the ball marginally forwards or backwards but the English will recite what's in their favour while the Welsh will recite what's in theirs. Typical 606 bias culture.

Not that it makes even a remote bit of difference as total mediocrity is what cost Wales the game and not poor officiating.

Biggar should learn how to kick a phecking ball into touch before steaming off at others for their shortcomings.

Hardly saying what we feel like.

The incident was reviewed and the ball was deemed to have gone backwards. I've seen a few posters suggest it went forwards but there's zero evidence for this.

I have yet to see this supposed review. Do you have a replay you can share? Complete with zoom-ins and acute angles to show precisely what direction the ball drifted in? Or is your conclusion that the ball went forwards just biased assumption, as I suspect.

The replays I saw on the day showed nothing decisive whatsoever. They were too far away and too obscure for anyone to draw a fair conclusion. Yet people say whatever they like all the same.