Viewing figures

SecretFly wrote:
You own the bucket of tripe, Phil.  I just dip my toes into it now and again when forced to use your peculiar logic.

Put it this way - you don't decide who owns what.  A League already exists whereby Union owned teams play 'Privately' owned teams.  Now, in your bucket of tripe, that means the League belongs to the Private 'Regions' - and the Union owned sides are merely guests....uninvited ones.

Let's stick to the truth - and put aside your attempts at always creating a 'Them' and 'Us'.  You keep using the same themes and structures.  

So, in your theory its 'US' (Wales, Scotland, England and Ireland) against THEM (Big bad France).  But the truth is you don't want Ireland or Scotland and certainly not Italy to be anywhere near your real version of Them and US.  

US = England and Wales
THEM = Ireland, Scotland, France and Italy.

Cute.

The truth is Wales is Wales - it isn't English rugby, it's Welsh rugby - and if the English Private owners model is working in England, that's not Wales.  So stop trying to link yourself up to something successful by simply trying on this 'US' trick.  The trick doesn't work.  Nobody is falling for it.  The problems of viability exist in Wales.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Its not the market rate, its assistance. The market rate would be paying for players who get selected for Wales rather than a core group

Wrong. Wholly wrong.

It is the market rate for services delivered under - here's a clue - the contract entitled Rugby Services Agreement. It's the same thing the English are now renewing their contract on.

It's about far more than just paying for players who get selected for Wales.

You couldn't be more wrong.

Sin é wrote:
I'd say its the amateur game that keeps the game alive in Wales. Most players could move to England or France and still represent Wales. It work out a whole lot cheaper for the WRU.

Take the Bristol outhalf Sheedy. He is Welsh/Irish, but went to school in England and is playing at an English club. What input will the Welsh Regions have into his development?

marty2086 wrote:
Those on NDCs are paid above the market rate. the Welsh subsidise them for the regions to keep them in Wales. A going market rate would be to pay them for when they are unavailable to the regions

marty2086 wrote:

Ffs change happens all the time, it doesn't mean it isn't growing it means it can be better.

The AP made changes and are looking into making more you saying its failing?

As Martin Anayi said they want to make more of one of the leagues biggest assets, to do that they'll need to change

Maybe you need to stop applying your blinkered childlike logic to it all

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Those on NDCs are paid above the market rate. the Welsh subsidise them for the regions to keep them in Wales. A going market rate would be to pay them for when they are unavailable to the regions

Oh dear Christ, that's bad.

The NDC is just £2m. That's all. Divided up by all of those players. That figure alone should tell you that your post is wholly inaccurate.

I do agree with your final sentence, though. That would be a much better solution - just as the French do. A set fee plus €1300 a day for when they are unavailable.

marty2086 wrote:
You say my post is inaccurate then agree with part of it?

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
You say my post is inaccurate then agree with part of it?

It's wholly inaccurate for how the set up is at the moment. Today's schooling for Martyn is on market rate.

Can I get some kind of payment from the Northern Ireland tax payer for this weekly schooling you get?

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
You say my post is inaccurate then agree with part of it?

It's wholly inaccurate for how the set up is at the moment. Today's schooling for Martyn is on market rate.

Can I get some kind of payment from the Northern Ireland tax payer for this weekly schooling you get?

The keys in the word wholly, you can't say wholly inaccurate then agree with part of its an oxymoron. Maybe you should just get a refund on your education

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
You say my post is inaccurate then agree with part of it?

It's wholly inaccurate for how the set up is at the moment. Today's schooling for Martyn is on market rate.

Can I get some kind of payment from the Northern Ireland tax payer for this weekly schooling you get?

The keys in the word wholly, you can't say wholly inaccurate then agree with part of its an oxymoron. Maybe you should just get a refund on your education

It's wholly inaccurate for the present setup.

Again, another basic thing explained to you. Yet another.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
The Welsh tv deal would have feiced up any potential exclusive deal with both Sky & BT Sport for the UK market. Why pay for games when they are all on Free to Air.

I'd say Blazered Gerald was offering an explanation rather than an excuse  The truth can hurt sometimes.

By the way, considering your concern for Irish rugby propping up Munster, I presume you have even more concern for the Irish taxpayer propping up Welsh Rugby (with tax exemptions on income earned through broadcasting and sponsorship deals)!

You're claiming the BBC Wales deal, that was already in place, screwed up an exclusive deal with Sky? Blazered Gerald had £4m in one hand and €900,000 in the other. That's the only truth that talks.

I'm clearly no expert on Irish taxation but could you tell me what taxation would be paid in the UK on income to a not for profit company? Thanks.

marty2086 wrote:
Not what you said champ, 'your post is wholly inaccurate'

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
Not what you said champ, 'your post is wholly inaccurate'

It is, for the present set up.

Again.

Sin é wrote:
So, the deal for the FTA BBC (the one negotiated by Roger Lewis) would not have an affect on either BT Sport or Sky bidding for UK media rights?      

Sin é wrote:
Are they not business? Businesses are For Profit organisations. Why do you think the Champs Cup is holed up in Switzerland - the availability of trained rugby personnel, legal people and easy access?

PS - would you mind providing the link about the Welsh/BBC media deal which I have asked you for previously?

marty2086 wrote:

Like I said backtracking and redefining

A bit like redefining what failing is, apparently a league that's generating money from different revenues streams and growing its audience is failing all because there is talk of change to increase the audience and revenue streams beyond the current rate

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

Like I said backtracking and redefining

A bit like redefining what failing is, apparently a league that's generating money from different revenues streams and growing its audience is failing all because there is talk of change to increase the audience and revenue streams beyond the current rate

Mate, explaining basic English to you is not 'backtracking and redefining'. It is 'providing an education at below Key Stage 3 level'.

Where's the growth in the PrO'12, Martyn? Please show it to me so that we can define it and measure it.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Are they not business? Businesses are For Profit organisations. Why do you think the Champs Cup is holed up in Switzerland - the availability of trained rugby personnel, legal people and easy access?

PS - would you mind providing the link about the Welsh/BBC media deal which I have asked you for previously?

Er, you can have 'not for profit businesses', my friend. Were you unaware?

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Are they not business? Businesses are For Profit organisations. Why do you think the Champs Cup is holed up in Switzerland - the availability of trained rugby personnel, legal people and easy access?

PS - would you mind providing the link about the Welsh/BBC media deal which I have asked you for previously?

Er, you can have 'not for profit businesses', my friend. Were you unaware?

Like a Charity?

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Are they not business? Businesses are For Profit organisations. Why do you think the Champs Cup is holed up in Switzerland - the availability of trained rugby personnel, legal people and easy access?

PS - would you mind providing the link about the Welsh/BBC media deal which I have asked you for previously?

Er, you can have 'not for profit businesses', my friend. Were you unaware?

What link would you like?

And please do answer the taxation question.

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Are they not business? Businesses are For Profit organisations. Why do you think the Champs Cup is holed up in Switzerland - the availability of trained rugby personnel, legal people and easy access?

PS - would you mind providing the link about the Welsh/BBC media deal which I have asked you for previously?

Er, you can have 'not for profit businesses', my friend. Were you unaware?

Like a Charity?

Like a credit union

Sin é wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:
Are they not business? Businesses are For Profit organisations. Why do you think the Champs Cup is holed up in Switzerland - the availability of trained rugby personnel, legal people and easy access?

PS - would you mind providing the link about the Welsh/BBC media deal which I have asked you for previously?

Er, you can have 'not for profit businesses', my friend. Were you unaware?

Like a Charity?

Like a credit union

Saracens et all are nothing like credit unions  

Credit Unions are membership organisations which I think you need to be to avail of non profit (rather than Not for Profit) status.

marty2086 wrote:
No you said the post was wholly inaccurate, maybe its not what you meant but its not what you said. Don't try insulting my intelligence because you can't accurately say you want

You know what growth is, increased tv revenue and increased attendances which have added something like 500k fans over a season which is more than the AP have added though they are still taking in about 500k more fans over a season

Sin é wrote:

I'd like a link to the statement/newspaper about about BBC Wales paying 4m for media rights to PRO12 games.

Not for Profit Sporting Organisations get a tax exemption in Ireland (ROI). That is why World Rugby, British & Irish Lions, Celtic Rugby Ltd are registered and trade from here.

You can see the Bill here:

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/taxsource/1997/en/act/pub/0039/tb/sec0235-1-tb.html

Phil, tax reasons is why Euro & PRO12 money goes through the WRU (a Not for Profit organisation) rather than direct to the Regions.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
No you said the post was wholly inaccurate, maybe its not what you meant but its not what you said. Don't try insulting my intelligence because you can't accurately say you want

You know what growth is, increased tv revenue and increased attendances which have added something like 500k fans over a season which is more than the AP have added though they are still taking in about 500k more fans over a season

I can't really insult your intelligence, can I?

I've missed the link to this 500k figure. I've genuinely missed the claims of growth. I'm sure that somebody will point to a £10m a year (or so) broadcast revenue as a growth achievement but they couldn't really hold a straight face if they tried it.

marty2086 wrote:
You regularly try to boost your own ego

Theres an amazing thing called Google, give it a whirl. Given what the league was earning in tv revenue not that long ago its a significant increase. Given the Welsh and Italian threatening to pull out we can say we are lucky to be getting that

SecretFly wrote:We've been here before.  Would Sky be on board if the Welsh were having their own little four Regional League?

Aren't you being a little 'amateurishly colloquial' in thinking a Broadcaster must be of origin in the Irish Nation in order for the IRFU to have influenced its desire to get involved?  Not like you to fall for the old school definition of who brings what to a table.

SecretFly wrote:Tell me, Phil.  Don't build up the suspense.  You're the numbers and figures man.  Don't be shy.

Sky aren't there for the Welsh sides to be phoning in their Pro12 performances and not getting to Europe.

You yourself admitted...em, gloated actually... that the Pro12 holds no interest for Welsh rugby fans.

Sky are in it for that?  They need a new team of guys at the top, the present bunch have gone stale if an uncaring Welsh market is their target audience.

SecretFly wrote:Ha! Ha!  Very funny.  But not working.  You try it every time.

Now back to the comments????

Sky are in it for the Welsh Regions?

SecretFly wrote:That's a sequence of numbers, Phil.  Talk in English.  

Sky are in it for the Welsh Regions?

SecretFly wrote:Oh I've seen it many a time, Phil.  Following you is quite easy...a lot of repeating.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I'd like a link to the statement/newspaper about about BBC Wales paying 4m for media rights to PRO12 games.

Not for Profit Sporting Organisations get a tax exemption in Ireland (ROI). That is why World Rugby, British & Irish Lions, Celtic Rugby Ltd are registered and trade from here.

You can see the Bill here:

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/taxsource/1997/en/act/pub/0039/tb/sec0235-1-tb.html

Phil, tax reasons is why Euro & PRO12 money goes through the WRU (a Not for Profit organisation) rather than direct to the Regions.

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/731137767422459904

Companies only pay tax on a profit. You may be confusing yourself, again, with VAT. Cardiff and the WRU went to the High Court about that in the 1990s.

Sin é wrote:
So you think the Regions will never make a profit? Some English clubs do actually manage to do that (like Leicester, Exeter, Northampton for example). I'd imagine Wasps are as well, though I don't know for sure.

I'm not confusing it with VAT. If that is the case, why are all those sporting organisations based in Dublin? Why did the Champs Cup go to Switzerland?

So you are basing that on a tweet from Simon Thomas who doesn't know what BBC NI are contributing? Great.

You also fail to acknowlege the knock-on affect FTA tv in Wales will have on what Sky will pay.

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:
You regularly try to boost your own ego

Theres an amazing thing called Google, give it a whirl. Given what the league was earning in tv revenue not that long ago its a significant increase. Given the Welsh and Italian threatening to pull out we can say we are lucky to be getting that

No, Martyn, I frequently have to show you where you're going wrong. That's not boosting my ego. It's tiresome nonsense compounded by the volume of drivel you write.

The Italians, let's not forget, bring more to the PrO'12 table than do the Irish broadcasters.

It seems that everybody who is 'naughty' contributes but the good stout men of the IRFU and SRU can't get decent TV deals. Funny that.

PhilBB wrote:

Sin é wrote:

I'd like a link to the statement/newspaper about about BBC Wales paying 4m for media rights to PRO12 games.

Not for Profit Sporting Organisations get a tax exemption in Ireland (ROI). That is why World Rugby, British & Irish Lions, Celtic Rugby Ltd are registered and trade from here.

You can see the Bill here:

https://www.charteredaccountants.ie/taxsource/1997/en/act/pub/0039/tb/sec0235-1-tb.html

Phil, tax reasons is why Euro & PRO12 money goes through the WRU (a Not for Profit organisation) rather than direct to the Regions.

https://twitter.com/simonrug/status/731137767422459904

Companies only pay tax on a profit. You may be confusing yourself, again, with VAT. Cardiff and the WRU went to the High Court about that in the 1990s.

marty2086 wrote:

No you like to think you do but often mistake opinion as fact, care to share the Italian figure with us. Does it not include the Italian domestic league as part of the deal?

Cant speak for the Scots but I know the Irish tv deal is hampered by RTE not bidding due cutting their budget and TV3 not showing an interest this time round. The Irish like to go to the games too, rather than sitting at home complaining about it all.

Then again you talk about how little interest there is in the Pro 12 in Wales yet BBC Wales seem happy to pay over the odds, not bad for something no one wants to watch.

Then again what do I know as apparently I need you to put me right on these things

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Oh I've seen it many a time, Phil.  Following you is quite easy...a lot of repeating.

So, now that you've understood it, why did you ask such a dumb question?

SecretFly wrote:
The question is would Sky be there if the Welsh were doing their own thing in a Welsh League?  Sky don't care where they dump the money.  They'll say it's for the Pro12 product but the Welsh don't finance the Pro12 and Sky aren't there because they're greedy for the rugby Welsh Regions are currently playing.  Plus.... does BBC Wales show any games with Irish, Scottish or Italian sides?  Or do they just televise Welsh derby games?  Wales generated 100% of BBC Wales interest?

PhilBB wrote:

Let's also not forget that, per population, fewer Irish attend matches than Welsh. So that little jibe doesn't work, either.

SecretFly wrote:
Per population?  Does that jibe work?  I think the Welsh might beat the English too on that one.  

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
The question is would Sky be there if the Welsh were doing their own thing in a Welsh League?  Sky don't care where they dump the money.  They'll say it's for the Pro12 product but the Welsh don't finance the Pro12 and Sky aren't there because they're greedy for the rugby Welsh Regions are currently playing.  Plus.... does BBC Wales show any games with Irish, Scottish or Italian sides?  Or do they just televise Welsh derby games?  Wales generated 100% of BBC Wales interest?

Ah, the old 'create a straw man argument' (the Welsh only league) and then argue against it tactic.

And your argument about the opposition works in reverse for other territorial TV deals. Have a think about that.

0/2

PhilBB wrote:

marty2086 wrote:

No you like to think you do but often mistake opinion as fact, care to share the Italian figure with us. Does it not include the Italian domestic league as part of the deal?

Cant speak for the Scots but I know the Irish tv deal is hampered by RTE not bidding due cutting their budget and TV3 not showing an interest this time round. The Irish like to go to the games too, rather than sitting at home complaining about it all.

Then again you talk about how little interest there is in the Pro 12 in Wales yet BBC Wales seem happy to pay over the odds, not bad for something no one wants to watch.

Then again what do I know as apparently I need you to put me right on these things

Oh dear. You're schooled on facts, Champ, not opinions.

When the Italians got their shareholding, their payment fell from €3m to just over €1m. More than TG4 pay.

Let's also not forget that, per population, fewer Irish attend matches than Welsh. So that little jibe doesn't work, either.

Welsh folk will normally be happy to watch any kind of rugby on TV, in good numbers. You shouldn't confuse numbers watching at home with those in the ground. The difference, of course, is that those numbers at home are normally fixed. It's those in the ground that are variable.

So, yes, you've been put right. Again. Again.

SecretFly wrote:
It's not me saying the IRFU fund the Pro12.  I'm telling you to your face, you're wrong in saying the Welsh do.  That's the reversal of argument I'm interested in.

PhilBB wrote:

SecretFly wrote:
Per population?  Does that jibe work?  I think the Welsh might beat the English too on that one.  

How is it a jibe? The population of South Wales is less than that of Leinster. You can't magic up crowds from no population.

So what the hell are you on about?

marty2086 wrote:
No you confuse your opinion with facts, the Italians participation payment fell, that's separate to their tv deal nice of you to put me right on that

So every Welsh and Irish fan are rugby fans? Easy guess would be there are more rugby fans in Wales than Ireland so I stand by what I said. Rugby being almost a minority sport in Ireland would contribute to a lower tv deal

BTW nice of you to post Simon Thomas' twitter feed showing he doesn't seem sure of the amounts and who's paying them. That your real alter ego?