New Zealand v Wales, 11 June

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NEW ZEALAND v WALES
11 June 2016
19:35 NZST (UTC+12)
Eden Park, Auckland

Live on [tbc]

Referee: Wayne Barnes (England)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

30 Played 30
27 Won 3
0 Drawn 0
3 Lost 27
916 Points 307

B. Recent Form

22 November 2014 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 16 – 34 to New Zealand

24 November 2012 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 10 – 33 to New Zealand

27 November 2010 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 25 – 37 to New Zealand

26 June 2010 - Waikato Stadium, Hamilton: 29 – 10 to New Zealand

19 June 2010 - Carisbrook, Dunedin: 42 – 9 to New Zealand

7 November 2009 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 12 – 19 to New Zealand

C. Teams

NEW ZEALAND

01. Joe Moody
02. Dane Coles
03. Owen Franks
04. Luke Romano
05. Brodie Retallick
06. Jerome Kaino
07. Sam Cane
08. Kieran Read – captain

09. Aaron Smith
10. Aaron Cruden
11. Julian Savea
12. Ryan Crotty
13. Malakai Fekitoa
14. Waisake Naholo
15. Ben Smith

16. Nathan Harris
17. Wyatt Crockett
18. Charlie Faumuina
19. Patrick Tuipulotu
20. Ardie Savea
21. TJ Perenara
22. Beauden Barrett
23. Seta Tamanivalu

WALES

01.Gethin Jenkins
02.Ken Owens
03.Samson Lee
04.Bradley Davies
05.Alun Wyn Jones
06.Ross Moriarty
07.Sam Warburton (captain)
08.Taulupe Faletau

09.Rhys Webb
10.Dan Biggar
11.Hallam Amos,
12.Jamie Roberts
13.Jonathan Davies
14.George North
15.Liam Williams.

16.Scott Baldwin
17.Rob Evans
18.Tomas Francis
19.Jake Ball
20.Ellis Jenkins
21.Gareth Davies
22.Gareth Anscombe
23.Scott Williams

If you read back you'll see I also said Wales put in a good effort and could consider themselves unlucky with some calls.

I'm also not saying England were dazzling but to imply they only won by kicking penalties is in my view a little disingenuous and not giving them due credit for the performance or the achievement.

They did score 3 tries and didn't need to pass the ball forwards to do so unlike some other more dazzling teams I could mention (  just to show I'm not taking this too seriously)

Wales were unlucky with some calls?

Which ones

Wales were rubbish, this was a young inexperienced New Zealand team, at the start of their development plan, against a Welsh team who have been settled since the last 2 World Cups.
5 tries to 2, and they just about doubled our points total, while we know they will improve over the next 2 games. We weren't disgraced in the manner many Welsh teams have been over here, but were not even close to New Zealands beginner level.

I'm not suggesting the Welsh boys didn't give their best, or saying the Kiwi players won't have sore bodies tomorrow, but frankly were not talented enough to compete and beat these teams.
Gatland has fallen into the trap of sleecting certain players because their available, regardless of form and fitness. I think Wales really need to rip up the plan and start again because were going backwards, the pro game in Wales is a total mess at the moment with fans and interest declining rapidly.

ebop wrote:Wales were unlucky with some calls?

Which ones

The clearly forward pass for the ABs 2nd try for one ... started 2m one side of the 10m line and was caught 2m on the other side ... admittedly it was cancelled out later by the disallowed AB try that didn't look forwards but that could have changed the pattern of the game earlier on ...

When jonny used to score 21 points in a game the Welsh used to call England a one man team. Now we only need Farrell. Suggest Eddie rests the other 22 players next week.

englandglory4ever wrote:When jonny used to score 21 points in a game the Welsh used to call England a one man team. Now we only need Farrell. Suggest Eddie rests the other 22 players next week.

What chuffing relevance does that have to this thread? Or was it meant for a different one?

Shifty wrote:Wales were rubbish, this was a young inexperienced New Zealand team, at the start of their development plan, against a Welsh team who have been settled since the last 2 World Cups.  
5 tries to 2, and they just about doubled our points total, while we know they will improve over the next 2 games.  We weren't disgraced in the manner many Welsh teams have been over here, but were not even close to New Zealands beginner level.

I'm not suggesting the Welsh boys didn't give their best, or saying the Kiwi players won't have sore bodies tomorrow, but frankly were not talented enough to compete and beat these teams.  
Gatland has fallen into the trap of sleecting certain players because their available, regardless of form and fitness.  I think Wales really need to rip up the plan and start again because were going backwards, the pro game in Wales is a total mess at the moment with fans and interest declining rapidly.  

So young and inexperienced the boasted over 600 caps.

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:Wales were unlucky with some calls?

Which ones

The clearly forward pass for the ABs 2nd try for one ... started 2m one side of the 10m line and was caught 2m on the other side ... admittedly it was cancelled out later by the disallowed AB try that didn't look forwards but that could have changed the pattern of the game earlier on ...

It´s the old ¨direction out of the hands vs flight of the ball¨ debate. Wales' second try could have been ruled out for the same infringement if you want to be really pedantic.

goneagain wrote:

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:Wales were unlucky with some calls?

Which ones

The clearly forward pass for the ABs 2nd try for one ... started 2m one side of the 10m line and was caught 2m on the other side ... admittedly it was cancelled out later by the disallowed AB try that didn't look forwards but that could have changed the pattern of the game earlier on ...

It´s the old ¨direction out of the hands vs flight of the ball¨ debate. Wales' second try could have been ruled out for the same infringement if you want to be really pedantic.

Interesting that one as George Ayoub had no problem with it (out of the back of the hands). Barnes overruled him.

Couple of observations

Wales:

I thought Wales played fantstic and did give it a real crack.
My stand out players were Webb, Jenkins and Faletau.
Gareth Anscombe is not an International player, and especially fullback and is no better than when he left Auckland a couple of years ago.
Quite a few Welsh supporters in the crowd, left the locals somewhat bemused when at about half an hour before kickoff they started cheering like mad when the Welsh forwards ran out to do their warm up.
Wonder if the tactic of screeming at the referee for penalties during the first five minutes of a game to test him out really works, I know there are some coaches at lower levels of the game that swear by it, but really at International level?
Bottom line the Welsh defence again was fantastic however do you not come to a point in a game when your defence can be your focal mindset. by that I mean you concentrate so much on defence that any priority to win turnover ball etc gets a little bit lost?
The welsh defence did force Cruden to kick more often in general play than Im sure he'd of preferred.


All Blacks.

Thought competed well at lineout, kick offs etc, but still missed Sam Whitelock moving bodies at the breakdown. Ardie Savea must now be really pushing Sam Cane for the open side place.
Moving forward the most interesting point for me was at the 81st minute. Reserve hooker Harriss scored a try down the blind side from a pass from his fellow reserve tighthead prop, who in turn had received it from reserve loosehead prop Crockett, the reserve front rowers must be creative, dominate and finish like any other of the 23 players and do so to absolutely kill that last period of the game, a time when most games are won or lost. I like what I saw.
This team does have the potential to improve.

All in all a good night out at Eden Park.

aucklandlaurie wrote: Couple of observations

Wales:

I thought Wales played  fantstic and did give it a real crack.
My stand out players were Webb, Jenkins and Faletau.
Gareth Anscombe is not an International player, and especially fullback and is no better than when he left Auckland a couple of years ago.
Quite a few Welsh supporters in the crowd, left the locals somewhat bemused when at about half an hour before kickoff they started cheering like mad when the Welsh forwards ran out to do their warm up.
Wonder if the tactic of screeming at the referee for penalties during the first five minutes of a game to test him out really works, I know there are some coaches at lower levels of the game that swear by it, but really at International level?
Bottom line the Welsh defence again was fantastic however do you not come to a point in a game when your defence can be your focal mindset. by that I mean you concentrate so much on defence that any priority to win turnover ball etc gets a little bit lost?
The welsh defence did force Cruden to kick more often in general play than Im sure he'd of preferred.


All Blacks.

Thought competed well at lineout, kick offs etc, but still missed Sam Whitelock moving bodies at the breakdown. Ardie Savea must now be really pushing Sam Cane for the open side place.
Moving forward the most interesting point for me was at the 81st minute. Reserve hooker Harriss scored a try down the blind side from a pass from his fellow reserve tighthead prop, who in turn had received it from reserve loosehead prop Crockett, the reserve front rowers must be creative, dominate and finish like any other of the 23 players and do so to absolutely kill that last period of the game, a time when most games are won or lost. I like what I saw.
This team does have the potential to improve.

All in all a good night out at Eden Park.

I'm glad you enjoyed the day out, I hope Wales can give you some kind of a game for the last 2 test matches.

LondonTiger wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:When jonny used to score 21 points in a game the Welsh used to call England a one man team. Now we only need Farrell. Suggest Eddie rests the other 22 players next week.

What chuffing relevance does that have to this thread? Or was it meant for a different one?

Watching his posting on a few threads i think he's had a few too many beverages

AL wrote:Moving forward the most interesting point for me was at the 81st minute. Reserve hooker Harriss scored a try down the blind side from a pass from his fellow reserve tighthead prop, who in turn had received it from reserve loosehead prop Crockett, the reserve front rowers must be creative, dominate and finish like any other of the 23 players and do so to absolutely kill that last period of the game, a time when most games are won or lost. I like what I saw.
This team does have the potential to improve.

This is key for me, the quality of the replacements is just a step above other teams. And the forwards handling is bette then most backs.

LondonTiger wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:When jonny used to score 21 points in a game the Welsh used to call England a one man team. Now we only need Farrell. Suggest Eddie rests the other 22 players next week.

What chuffing relevance does that have to this thread? Or was it meant for a different one?

I think maybe he was referring to ebop's comments along the lines of 'stodgy' England only won by kicking penalties ... but could be wrong.

yappysnap wrote:

LondonTiger wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:When jonny used to score 21 points in a game the Welsh used to call England a one man team. Now we only need Farrell. Suggest Eddie rests the other 22 players next week.

What chuffing relevance does that have to this thread? Or was it meant for a different one?

Watching his posting on a few threads i think he's had a few too many beverages

You'll never get anything helpful from EG4E, he's consumed with Welsh hatred.

Far from it offcuts. I thought the Welsh played with a huge amount of passion and intensity. They scored good tries. Especially the first one. Trouble is they just aren't the same level as the nzers. Man for man nz were 10% to 20% more powerful. No contest in the end but you can't fault the players for effort.

Some thoughts on the game.

1. Barnes: Not too fussed about the forward pass call. I think it was clearly wrong, but he took ownership of the call. He saw it on the big screen. Referees don't always get it right, but they need to have confidence in their decisions.

2. I was uncertain of the result prior to kick off. By the 30 minute mark I was starting to feel more relaxed, even though the AB's were struggling with some aspects of their game and Wales were ahead. One of the key reasons was the Welsh forwards were starting to blow.

3. I grew up with great Welsh attacking backlines. It was good to see some real verve with ball in hand. It's a shame North's tour is over. He was looking good.

4. Conundrums for the AB's in the out wide. Saveas come in for criticism this year (lack of fitness and form in super rugby) and Noholo has only recently returned from injury. Both struggled a bit on Saturday. I'm sure Savea will come right, and Naholo needs to improve his decision making (I think he possibly had the worst performance of any of the AB's). I'm not sure having two big strike wingers is the best option strategically. We seem to work better when one winger is essentially a second full back.

5. Good to see Gerthin Jenkins playing well. Didn't appear to be many collapsed scrums. Which is good.

6. Not surprised the Welsh lineout malfunctioned in the second half. I thought before the game the AB's would target this as they have more targets in the lineout. I expect it to continue, especially if Whitelock comes back.

7. One area both sides will look to improve in the second test is their work at the breakdown. NZ will look to protect their ball more and Wales will look to be more competitive (I suspect they concentrate at the tackle).

8. Cruden's kicking wasn't as poor as many suspected it would be.

I'm left wondering how rusty were both sides (esp the AB's), will exposure help Wales adjust to the intensity of the AB's game/ How will each team adjust from last weekend.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If you told me you were going to do something, and did it, and I said you'd gone back on your word, even though I didn't know whether you'd done it or not, would that be right?

Not if you had no evidence either way to show whether I had or hadn't done it.

You had no evidence either way to show whether or not Wales had stayed true to their promise of taking more risks with ball in hand (which they did), but you were happy to assume they hadn't.

englandglory4ever wrote:Far from it offcuts. I thought the Welsh played with a huge amount of passion and intensity. They scored good tries. Especially the first one. Trouble is they just aren't the same level as the nzers. Man for man nz were 10% to 20% more powerful. No contest in the end but you can't fault the players for effort.

When we played narrow NZ dominated the collisions, even by strength or gang-tackling our players. I think we should play more like NZ and look to attack from turnover ball rather than kick it, and throw it around a bit more. That worked better for Wales.

We kicked too much, and it was poor kicking too. (When have we not kicked too much?) But it was all the more frustrating on Saturday when we'd been getting success from keeping the ball in hand.

I'm not sure about kicking too much, but I don't really like seeing teams kick the ball when it's on to counter, because the opposition are disorganised having conceded the turnover. ABs do it all the time - it goes from one side of the pitch and then to the other. They make a lot of ground from it.

This has actually turned out worse than I feared. This was a settled, experienced and ready Wales team going down to face a team who had just lost a lot of experience and were introducing new faces.

Alright we threw the ball around a bit (2 years too late for that to raise any sort of praise from me im afraid) but still got smashed to bits in the last 20minutes and ended up losing by 20pts. This tour has been doomed from the moment we selected a full strength side to play Englands 2nds. Even this selection against the chiefs brings us nothing new to learn. Devoid of ideas and I fear that the coaching team has gone completely stale. We've moved on along from the time Gatland has arrived, but after 8years we should be doing more than defending "well" (20 odd missed tackles doesnt constitute good defending imo) and heaping praise on chucking the ball about willy nilly.

I thought we were going to get spanked every game, I fear this hidden version of a spanking has given us a false confidence in where we are

Cmon guys you havent lost 60-0 yet.

The keyword there being 'yet'

Comfort wrote:After 8years we should be doing more than defending "well" (20 odd missed tackles doesnt constitute good defending imo) and heaping praise on chucking the ball about willy nilly.

I think that's unfair. I worried before the match that we might force things, but generally our sense of when to play was good. The problem is we reverted to type, and visibly started to tire, just as the All Blacks clicked in to gear.

This is evidently all the Pro12's fault.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Comfort wrote:After 8years we should be doing more than defending "well" (20 odd missed tackles doesnt constitute good defending imo) and heaping praise on chucking the ball about willy nilly.

I think that's unfair. I worried before the match that we might force things, but generally our sense of when to play was quite good. The problem is we reverted to type, and visibly started to tire, just as the All Blacks clicked in to gear.

This is evidently all the Pro12's fault.

I was probably a little unfair there!!

It was a lot better than we've been with ball in hand for many a year (apart from against Italy in dead rubbers). Again though, I refuse to give praise for something thats 2 years too late, still better late than never and who knows maybe by the next world cup we'll be able to draw a man and pass without cutting out our own overlaps....

Blwydi pro 12

There was one try we blew because Jon Davies threw a looping miss pass when we had men over.

I do feel its a skill we've become especially effective at as a nation. Give us room to pass and an overlap and you can pretty much guarantee we'll either

1) throw a mispass
2) throw the ball in to touch
3) find contact, somehow

Only now are we seeing that having Shane in the team bought Gatland a fair few years worth of people not noticing how bad our backline has become as a unit.

Yeah JD2 still can't pass, which is why he shouldn't be at 13, he's second choice 12 for me.

Comfort wrote:This has actually turned out worse than I feared. This was a settled, experienced and ready Wales team going down to face a team who had just lost a lot of experience and were introducing new faces.

Alright we threw the ball around a bit (2 years too late for that to raise any sort of praise from me im afraid) but still got smashed to bits in the last 20minutes and ended up losing by 20pts. This tour has been doomed from the moment we selected a full strength side to play Englands 2nds. Even this selection against the chiefs brings us nothing new to learn. Devoid of ideas and I fear that the coaching team has gone completely stale. We've moved on along from the time Gatland has arrived, but after 8years we should be doing more than defending "well" (20 odd missed tackles doesnt constitute good defending imo) and heaping praise on chucking the ball about willy nilly.

I thought we were going to get spanked every game, I fear this hidden version of a spanking has given us a false confidence in where we are  

A lot of this post is rather stupid. Firstly, your presumption that experience equals superiority. Why? That's not always the case and when NZ don't have a single crap player in their entire country your experience isn't going to count for much. Secondly, just how inexperienced do you think this NZ team is? Are you aware of how many caps their team has? Are you aware they've played on numerous occasions without Carter and McCaw? It seems like your answer to these questions would be "I don't know."

Yes we played that way, you're correct there. It was necessary. Too late? Well we've played that way before. Too late releasing Gatball restrictions is perhaps more accurate. Why do you think we were doomed from that game against England? The intentions were correct, but it didn't quite work out for Wales. Also I estimate that both England and Wales were missing 6-8 players, so you're showing your ignorance again there. The team for the match against the Chiefs is a scratch team and I would also agree with you on this point. Our defence hasn't been that good, or as good as it once was, for a number of years. Maybe Edwards, like Howley and McBryde long before him has reached his sell-by date. Either that or the direction in which team Wales is heading is at odds with a tight, defensive game, the type Edwards specialises in coaching. He was left out of the last Lions tour by his boss, I think that was also a sign.

That's your opinion, and it's probable. Going by your posts it sounds like you should maybe stop supporting Wales in rugby. I hear we're doing alright in football (for now), so maybe try that. I know I will be on Thursday .

mikey_dragon wrote:

Comfort wrote:This has actually turned out worse than I feared. This was a settled, experienced and ready Wales team going down to face a team who had just lost a lot of experience and were introducing new faces.

Alright we threw the ball around a bit (2 years too late for that to raise any sort of praise from me im afraid) but still got smashed to bits in the last 20minutes and ended up losing by 20pts. This tour has been doomed from the moment we selected a full strength side to play Englands 2nds. Even this selection against the chiefs brings us nothing new to learn. Devoid of ideas and I fear that the coaching team has gone completely stale. We've moved on along from the time Gatland has arrived, but after 8years we should be doing more than defending "well" (20 odd missed tackles doesnt constitute good defending imo) and heaping praise on chucking the ball about willy nilly.

I thought we were going to get spanked every game, I fear this hidden version of a spanking has given us a false confidence in where we are  

A lot of this post is rather stupid. Firstly, your presumption that experience equals superiority. Why? That's not always the case and when NZ don't have a single crap player in their entire country your experience isn't going to count for much. Secondly, just how inexperienced do you think this NZ team is? Are you aware of how many caps their team has? Are you aware they've played on numerous occasions without Carter and McCaw? It seems like your answer to these questions would be "I don't know."

Yes we played that way, you're correct there. It was necessary. Too late? Well we've played that way before. Too late releasing Gatball restrictions is perhaps more accurate. Why do you think we were doomed from that game against England? The intentions were correct, but it didn't quite work out for Wales. Also I estimate that both England and Wales were missing 6-8 players, so you're showing your ignorance again there. The team for the match against the Chiefs is a scratch team and I would also agree with you on this point. Our defence hasn't been that good, or as good as it once was, for a number of years. Maybe Edwards, like Howley and McBryde long before him has reached his sell-by date. Either that or the direction in which team Wales is heading is at odds with a tight, defensive game, the type Edwards specialises in coaching. He was left out of the last Lions tour by his boss, I think that was also a sign.

That's your opinion, and it's probable. Going by your posts it sounds like you should maybe stop supporting Wales in rugby. I hear we're doing alright in football (for now), so maybe try that. I know I will be on Thursday .

Stupid in your opinion young squire! The NZ team we faced had over 600 caps in its ranks, I'm well aware they're the current world champions and have been the best team in the world for the last 6-8years without question. This is an acid test against a side we havent beaten in what, 58 years (I'm sure you an correct me on that figure...) so victory wasn't necessaraily what I was hoping for (realistically). Im under no illusion what a challenge this was. I wanted to see more than we delivered, gallant failure again with no real progress in playing style in the last few years. We've become stale, I blame that fact on the coaching team first and foremost. There's no hiding from that.

The selection against Englandput us in a lose/lose situation, win and we've beaten a scratch england team, lose and we had our 1sts humped by a scratch england side and we travel down to face the best team in the world on the back of having our greatest rugby rivalry spank us without their strongest lineup..... 6-8 changes each yes, but theres were fringe/young players coming in with something to prove, ours were guarenteed squad players or subs who knew their place on tour was comfortably booked already.

Just because my opinion differs from yours, it doesnt mean its stupid. Perspective is a fine thing, and once we've finished being humped by the chiefs this morning you may just realise I may actually just have an idea of what im talking about (although of course, we could all confidently put ourselves forward to coach team wales in this country )

And yes, I support Wales in football too, COLEMAN IS MUSTARD.

Comfort, yes there was parts of that which I felt were stupid and I've alluded to them specifically. You're letting angry ranting get in the way of being subjective/objective, whatever you want to be.

Ah there we go, not so inexperienced then like you seemed to be suggesting . I'm not sure how many years, but we've never played them every single year so I think it's easier to just count the tests... I agree that there is a coaching issue and I'm not entirely sure where to point the finger, but it does seem to be the backroom staff. Gatland does well, IMO. He gets rusty, injured players from Welsh regions who on the most part are poorly coached (in comparison to NZ, Eng, Ire) and aren't at the required level for playing international rugby. I think this is why Wales are often rusty and struggle when the team makes wholesale changes.

Wales were missing Charteris, Francis, B.Davies, JD2, Halfpenny, Owens, G.Davies plus losing Lydiate early to injury. Now those are all first choice squad members. On the bench we had the likes of Rh, Jones, Turnbull, King and Priestland... Off the top of my head England were without Marler, Kruis, Vunpola bros, Itoje, Farrell and probably a couple more that I've missed, hence me saying 6-8. Now look at their 23 for the first test against Aus and tell me where the wholesale changes are? They're not really there except the Sarries boys are starting with the starting players for the Wales game shifted to the bench. Two similar squads for the May fixture in question, but for me it highlights lack of strength in depth and poor domestic rugby in Wales. A win for us would have been ideal as it could have built momentum, but that's what happened for England and not us. Our defence is shocking too btw.

Your opinion is sound, I just highlighted the bits I thought were blatantly stupid, which we've now discussed. Wales rugby just isn't particularly good at any level this summer, it's why I've been watching Bale and Ramsay beat the likes of Slovakia. On to England again next .

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If you told me you were going to do something, and did it, and I said you'd gone back on your word, even though I didn't know whether you'd done it or not, would that be right?

Not if you had no evidence either way to show whether I had or hadn't done it.

You had no evidence either way to show whether or not Wales had stayed true to their promise of taking more risks with ball in hand (which they did), but you were happy to assume they hadn't.

Do you have a learning disability which prevents you reading all but the first line of a comment?

Knowsit17 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If you told me you were going to do something, and did it, and I said you'd gone back on your word, even though I didn't know whether you'd done it or not, would that be right?

Not if you had no evidence either way to show whether I had or hadn't done it.

You had no evidence either way to show whether or not Wales had stayed true to their promise of taking more risks with ball in hand (which they did), but you were happy to assume they hadn't.

Do you have a learning disability which prevents you reading all but the first line of a comment?

I object to people assuming that someone hasn't done what they said they'd do, and criticising them for not doing it (even though they actually did), without doing them the courtesy of finding out.

Ad hominem attacks really aren't clever.  

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

Knowsit17 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If you told me you were going to do something, and did it, and I said you'd gone back on your word, even though I didn't know whether you'd done it or not, would that be right?

Not if you had no evidence either way to show whether I had or hadn't done it.

You had no evidence either way to show whether or not Wales had stayed true to their promise of taking more risks with ball in hand (which they did), but you were happy to assume they hadn't.

Do you have a learning disability which prevents you reading all but the first line of a comment?

I object to people assuming that someone - anyone - hasn't done what they said they'd do, without doing them the courtesy of finding out.

Ad hominem attacks really aren't clever.  

Neither is cherry picking the bits you respond too. Suggests you just don't have an answer to the rest of the statement.

P.s. Wales are an abysmal side. How anyone musters the energy to watch this shambles, let alone waste the money it takes travelling half the world to watch them, I don't know.

I'm not saying they didn't revert to type, tire, fall off tackles. I'm not saying they were brilliant. What I'm saying is that they were true to their word and did play more rugby. And you decided to claim they went back on their word, despite not having watched the match. I'm focusing on that bit only because that's the bit I have an issue with.

Cheer up lads its just a summer tour down-under, doesn't really matter.......does it?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not saying they didn't revert to type, tire, fall off tackles. I'm not saying they were brilliant. What I'm saying is that they were true to their word and did play more rugby. And you decided to claim they went back on their word, despite not having watched the match. I'm focusing on that bit only because that's the bit I have an issue with.

Fair enough. Sincere apologies for the harsh words.

It's specifically because Wales reverted to type that I'm not being very forgiving. It's such a defining characteristic of this Welsh side to play well in bursts and then suddenly drop the intensity at a certain point that I'd rather they didn't talk about adventure and risks if they're just going to produce that for 40-60 minutes and then revert to match-losing mode. There's absolutely nothing different there from past occasions.

Take the SA test two years ago. Wales surrendered leads of 17-0 and 30-17 to lose by a point. They were good for those leads but once they had them they reverted to type, with poor defence and silly errors unravelling all the good work. What was the difference this time? Only that they didn't score as much and got blitzed more in the final quarter.

Gatland is damaging his reputation by staying with Wales, imho he needs to leave asap.

Reverting to type by not being able to keep NZ at arms length for 80 min. Harsh! Even when England beat them by a record in 2012 NZ still have that burst.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Reverting to type by not being able to keep NZ at arms length for 80 min. Harsh! Even when England beat them by a record in 2012 NZ still have that burst.

I have no recollection of that.

Knowsit17 wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I'm not saying they didn't revert to type, tire, fall off tackles. I'm not saying they were brilliant. What I'm saying is that they were true to their word and did play more rugby. And you decided to claim they went back on their word, despite not having watched the match. I'm focusing on that bit only because that's the bit I have an issue with.

Fair enough. Sincere apologies for the harsh words.

It's specifically because Wales reverted to type that I'm not being very forgiving. It's such a defining characteristic of this Welsh side to play well in bursts and then suddenly drop the intensity at a certain point that I'd rather they didn't talk about adventure and risks if they're just going to produce that for 40-60 minutes and then revert to match-losing mode. There's absolutely nothing different there from past occasions.

Take the SA test two years ago. Wales surrendered leads of 17-0 and 30-17 to lose by a point. They were good for those leads but once they had them they reverted to type, with poor defence and silly errors unravelling all the good work. What was the difference this time? Only that they didn't score as much and got blitzed more in the final quarter.

I'm a pedant, that's all. And I agree we seem to be abysmal at holding on to leads against the best sides.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I'm a pedant towards welsh posters, that's all.

About time you admitted as well.

Capital W in 'Welsh', Mikey.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Capital W in 'Welsh', Mikey.

I was quoting you though...