South Africa v Ireland, 11 June

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SOUTH AFRICA v IRELAND
11 June 2016
17:00 SAST (UTC+02)
DHL Newlands, Cape Town

Live on Sky Sports

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

22 Played 22
16 Won 5
1 Drawn 1
5 Lost 16
422 Points 277

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 29 – 15 to Ireland

10 November 2012 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 12 – 16 to South Africa

6 November 2010 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 21 – 23 to South Africa

28 November 2009 - Croke Park, Dublin: 15 – 10 to Ireland

11 November 2006 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 32 – 15 to Ireland

13 November 2004 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 17 – 12 to Ireland

19 June 2004 - Newlands, Cape Town: 26 – 17 to South Africa

C. Teams

SOUTH AFRICA 

15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi 17 Trevor Nyakane 18 Julian Redelinghuys 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit 20 Warren Whiteley 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies 23 Jesse Kriel

IRELAND

J Payne; A Trimble, R Henshaw, L Marshall, K Earls; P Jackson, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, M Ross; I Henderson, D Toner; CJ Stander, J Murphy, J Heaslip

Replacements: S Cronin, F Bealham, T Furlong, U Dillane, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, C Gilroy.

There are varying circumstances as to what I percieve a traitor to be.

When a player is lured/paid/enticed/whatever else you can think of to represent another country in sport then you can call him whatever you like, traitor, turncoat same difference.

When a person leaves his home nation and then develops a skill due to the training, facilities or any other input his adopted nation has provided him then there is no issue.

There is a significant difference between buying identified or recognised talent to compete with.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Throwing the word traitor around is a bit strong! Not like anyone is whiter than white in the regards to picking players born overseas.

Say Maro Itoje decided to play for France because Toulon offered him double his salary...

Biltong wrote:Yeah, we seem to have a lot of these traitors these days, every dog with a pound to spare is milking the system.

Nothing we can do about it, our politics and economy encourages it.

Those who benefit from it smiles and claims them as their own, so we (well I) just speak my mind.

Simples

I don't claim him as ours.  He's South African.  All his family are South African. They'll be attending.

My opinions on the residency thing are I think clear enough at this point.  I don't like the concept.  World Rugby has to deal with it to reduce the impact of it as much as possible.  Of course that will mean that World Rugby will have to fight this apparent world ideal that every man should be able to work anywhere on the planet and represent anything he wants as a human right.  So the fight to stall the path of Professional rugby will be a constant one and a tough one.

Meanwhile, my allegiance is to the shirt that represents me.  The Ireland shirt.  And all and every player that wears it has my respect.  Stander, Strauss or Payne are not going to be isolated or placed in a different category when putting their bodies on the line in my name.  So they'll be defended against all comers.  In that sense - as people, as individuals - they do now belong to us.  And, within reason, I'll cover their backs in debates

There are plenty of players who do that sort of thing. It's only sport, they're not traitors! I doubt SA fans follow that same theory through and boo people like the Beast (sorry can never spell the name).

eirebilly wrote:
If I was ever any good at anything that would enable me to represent Holland, I still would not do it as I am Irish. I just don't get how people can do that myself.

So you are telling me that if you were a professional sportsman, and that was your livelyhood, you would refuse to represent Holland, even if it meant earning comfortable living doing something you love, if Ireland weren't interested in your services? You would accept a lower income, or even change career to something you enjoyed less?

In truth it is no different to anyone migrating to another country, for work and lifestyle. The reality is when you get paid to do something it is your profession and people need to do what they need to do to provide for them and their family.

I think there will be more of buying established players from SA especially white players with the quotas. The change from 3 to 5 years can't come soon enough for SA.

No 7&1/2 wrote:There are plenty of players who do that sort of thing. It's only sport, they're not traitors! I doubt SA fans follow that same theory through and boo people like the Beast (sorry can never spell the name).

Beast is a little different. Schooled in Zim... a nothing country rugby wise. Academy rugby in SA. If anything I think Zim fans would love the fact one of their boys got springbok colours.

Like Tim Visser.. you can't really blame top class players for going from a tier 4-5 country to a tier 1 country. When was the last time Zim faced the boks? When was the last time Holland faced Scotland?

I'd put it on a par with Clyde Rathbone myself.

It's always different when it happens the other way.

No 7&1/2 wrote:It's always different when it happens the other way.

You think its the same or even ballpark?

fa0019 wrote:

All we have is his word which is put under serious question given Meyer capped equally sized chaps at flanker inc. the 2 he will face on Saturday. Hell, Meyer capped Brussow at 180cm and almost called up Deon Fourie too... all 175cm of him.

Did anyone in South Africa call him a liar?  He knows it's a modern world.  He gave his interpretation of what happened.  he knows that's going to get to the people he's referring to.  Any of them say that he's a damn liar yet?

Maybe they will - maybe he is curling the past to suit his narrative.  But have any of the people involved protested his version yet?

I actually had an argument with Clyde Rathbone about the "converting to another country"

It turned out quite nasty, it was on the australian forum.

He wrote an article regarding loyalty, I commented he was one to talk.

Anyway we never spoke again.

Yup, the same. So it's ok for Visser? What about Nathan Hughes? But not a South African like Stander. SA are too important. The residency qualifying is too short but these guys aren't traitors.

Biltong wrote:I actually had an argument with Clyde Rathbone about the "converting to another country"

It turned out quite nasty, it was on the australian forum.

He wrote an article regarding loyalty, I commented he was one to talk.

Anyway we never spoke again.

He was loyal... to his wallet.

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

All we have is his word which is put under serious question given Meyer capped equally sized chaps at flanker inc. the 2 he will face on Saturday. Hell, Meyer capped Brussow at 180cm and almost called up Deon Fourie too... all 175cm of him.

Did anyone in South Africa call him a liar?  He knows it's a modern world.  He gave his interpretation of what happened.  he knows that's going to get to the people he's referring to.  Any of them say that he's a damn liar yet?

Maybe they will - maybe he is curling the past to suit his narrative.  But have any of the people involved protested his version yet?

I don't think it matters to be honest.

He left SA to pursue a rugby career in Ireland, information via the media very soon cane out that he has committed to Ireland.

Those are the only facts that matter.

fa0019 wrote:

Biltong wrote:I actually had an argument with Clyde Rathbone about the "converting to another country"

It turned out quite nasty, it was on the australian forum.

He wrote an article regarding loyalty, I commented he was one to talk.

Anyway we never spoke again.

He was loyal... to his wallet.

That was my opinion as well, it still is.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup, the same. So it's ok for Visser? What about Nathan Hughes? But not a South African like Stander. SA are too important. The residency qualifying is too short but these guys aren't traitors.

If you don't like the word traitor, substitute it for turncoat or whatever other word you deem more appropriate.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup, the same. So it's ok for Visser? What about Nathan Hughes? But not a South African like Stander. SA are too important. The residency qualifying is too short but these guys aren't traitors.

I think its understandable if a player comes from a non rugby nation yes... be it china, Honduras, Holland, Zimbabwe or the Gabon. These players such as Visser & Mtawarira played rugby for the country which developed their rugby from academy onwards. There was no conflict because their countries are non rugby playing nations.

They weren't going from country 3 to country 7 in the world. They weren't offered 50 pieces of silver.

Language is important Biltong. You boo the Beast and call him traitor often I take it?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Language is important Biltong. You boo the Beast and call him traitor often I take it?

Why would South Africans boo Mtawarira?

Do the Irish boo Stander?

Standard practice is to boo the chap who left, not the one that joined.

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Yup, the same. So it's ok for Visser? What about Nathan Hughes? But not a South African like Stander. SA are too important. The residency qualifying is too short but these guys aren't traitors.

I think its understandable if a player comes from a non rugby nation yes... be it china, Honduras, Holland, Zimbabwe or the Gabon. These players such as Visser & Mtawarira played rugby for the country which developed their rugby from academy onwards. There was no conflict because their countries are non rugby playing nations.

They weren't going from country 3 to country 7 in the world. They weren't offered 50 pieces of silver.

I'm not overly fussed if a player decides to or not but it's down to individual. They're still turnign their back on one country to try with another.

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Language is important Biltong. You boo the Beast and call him traitor often I take it?

Why would South Africans boo Mtawarira?

Do the Irish boo Stander?

Standard practice is to boo the chap who left, not the one that joined.

Yes, the language of hypocrisy. my point.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Language is important Biltong. You boo the Beast and call him traitor often I take it?

The history and development of the two players are vastly different.

I would have preferred he Beast never represented SA.

Don't get hung up on the lamguage.

I stated my Case and how i feel, if you don't like how I see that, sorry, it isn't going to change the way I feel about this issue.

Were not debating whether a pass was forward or not, it is my personal feeling regards to this. You can like it or not.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
If I was ever any good at anything that would enable me to represent Holland, I still would not do it as I am Irish. I just don't get how people can do that myself.

So you are telling me that if you were a professional sportsman, and that was your livelyhood, you would refuse to represent Holland, even if it meant earning comfortable living doing something you love, if Ireland weren't interested in your services? You would accept a lower income, or even change career to something you enjoyed less?

In truth it is no different to anyone migrating to another country, for work and lifestyle. The reality is when you get paid to do something it is your profession and people need to do what they need to do to provide for them and their family.

Actually I would. Easy to say since I am not in that position but I am fierce loyal to Ireland.

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

All we have is his word which is put under serious question given Meyer capped equally sized chaps at flanker inc. the 2 he will face on Saturday. Hell, Meyer capped Brussow at 180cm and almost called up Deon Fourie too... all 175cm of him.

Did anyone in South Africa call him a liar?  He knows it's a modern world.  He gave his interpretation of what happened.  he knows that's going to get to the people he's referring to.  Any of them say that he's a damn liar yet?

Maybe they will - maybe he is curling the past to suit his narrative.  But have any of the people involved protested his version yet?

I don't think it matters to be honest.

He left SA to pursue a rugby career in Ireland, information via the media very soon cane out that he has committed to Ireland.

Those are the only facts that matter.

It matters to me.  The versions.  They matter to me.  You say he'll be called a traitor in his own Nation.  Fine - that's their right.  He says he wanted to play for his Nation but was told it would not be a goer as he was too small - not that he had too little talent, that he was too small, didn't fit the physicality picture.  

Now fa says he find that version of Stander's hard to believe as guys of his size have been in the South African team.  Well maybe Stander too realised he was getting a load of guff when that was what was put before him as an excuse.  Maybe that's what Stander is pointing out.  He was being told he wasn't good enough and size was the excuse used?  He was being told to 'f**k off'?

Yeah, it does matter.  Crowds can still boo.  Crowds can still deem him a traitor (their right to do so as I've said) - but they should also be informed of the versions - all of them - and maybe he'll be interviewed in South Africa so that more people can hear his version.  They still have the right to think what they like - but closing their ears to an alternative version of the 'truth' they've been fed should be challenged.

Ha, good to know that you're willing to accept movement once you've made your mind up Biltong!

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
If I was ever any good at anything that would enable me to represent Holland, I still would not do it as I am Irish. I just don't get how people can do that myself.

So you are telling me that if you were a professional sportsman, and that was your livelyhood, you would refuse to represent Holland, even if it meant earning comfortable living doing something you love, if Ireland weren't interested in your services? You would accept a lower income, or even change career to something you enjoyed less?

In truth it is no different to anyone migrating to another country, for work and lifestyle. The reality is when you get paid to do something it is your profession and people need to do what they need to do to provide for them and their family.

Actually I would. Easy to say since I am not in that position but I am fierce loyal to Ireland.

Even if say you had Gareth Bale like talent (i.e. one of the world's best) and Ireland were of a San Marino level team in whatever sport you played? That is understandable in my book.

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
If I was ever any good at anything that would enable me to represent Holland, I still would not do it as I am Irish. I just don't get how people can do that myself.

So you are telling me that if you were a professional sportsman, and that was your livelyhood, you would refuse to represent Holland, even if it meant earning comfortable living doing something you love, if Ireland weren't interested in your services? You would accept a lower income, or even change career to something you enjoyed less?

In truth it is no different to anyone migrating to another country, for work and lifestyle. The reality is when you get paid to do something it is your profession and people need to do what they need to do to provide for them and their family.

Actually I would. Easy to say since I am not in that position but I am fierce loyal to Ireland.

You're only a feicer, billy. You traitorous git...you wanted Payne to oust poor Rob - the man that recites the 1916 Rising each and every night before prayers!

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
If I was ever any good at anything that would enable me to represent Holland, I still would not do it as I am Irish. I just don't get how people can do that myself.

So you are telling me that if you were a professional sportsman, and that was your livelyhood, you would refuse to represent Holland, even if it meant earning comfortable living doing something you love, if Ireland weren't interested in your services? You would accept a lower income, or even change career to something you enjoyed less?

In truth it is no different to anyone migrating to another country, for work and lifestyle. The reality is when you get paid to do something it is your profession and people need to do what they need to do to provide for them and their family.

Actually I would. Easy to say since I am not in that position but I am fierce loyal to Ireland.

But yet you migrated to ply your trade and skills elsewhere, which I'm not judging, but I don't see how this is different to a pro rugby player doing the same?

fa0019 wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:Language is important Biltong. You boo the Beast and call him traitor often I take it?

Why would South Africans boo Mtawarira?

Do the Irish boo Stander?

Standard practice is to boo the chap who left, not the one that joined.

But you can see that is a double standard. It is hypocrisy.

I don't like the fact Ireland have so many foreign players in the side now. I believe it weakens the sense of identity and devalues the shirt. Hopefully the 5 year residency rule is passed. I think it will go a long way in discouraging what we are witnessing now with Ireland.

SecretFly wrote:

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

All we have is his word which is put under serious question given Meyer capped equally sized chaps at flanker inc. the 2 he will face on Saturday. Hell, Meyer capped Brussow at 180cm and almost called up Deon Fourie too... all 175cm of him.

Did anyone in South Africa call him a liar?  He knows it's a modern world.  He gave his interpretation of what happened.  he knows that's going to get to the people he's referring to.  Any of them say that he's a damn liar yet?

Maybe they will - maybe he is curling the past to suit his narrative.  But have any of the people involved protested his version yet?

I don't think it matters to be honest.

He left SA to pursue a rugby career in Ireland, information via the media very soon cane out that he has committed to Ireland.

Those are the only facts that matter.

It matters to me.  The versions.  They matter to me.  You say he'll be called a traitor in his own Nation.  Fine - that's their right.  He says he wanted to play for his Nation but was told it would not be a goer as he was too small - not that he had too little talent, that he was too small, didn't fit the physicality picture.  

Now fa says he find that version of Stander's hard to believe as guys of his size have been in the South African team.  Well maybe Stander too realised he was getting a load of guff when that was what was put before him as an excuse.  Maybe that's what Stander is pointing out.  He was being told he wasn't good enough and size was the excuse used?  He was being told to 'f**k off'?

Yeah, it does matter.  Crowds can still boo.  Crowds can still deem him a traitor (their right to do so as I've said) - but they should also be informed of the versions - all of them - and maybe he'll be interviewed in South Africa so that more people can hear his version.  They still have the right to think what they like - but closing their ears to an alternative version of the 'truth' they've been fed should be challenged.

I would take that as valid fly had he not signed midway through his first season with the bulls. Had he not turned down approaches by the boks before he left.

Saying .. I gave the 3rd best team in the world 6 months and they didn't take me....  its a bit weak. I mean the boks didn't choose him for the 3 match series with England in 2012 (the first tests of the year) They didn't take Arno Botha either who broke through the same year too and in fact was probably viewed as a little superior (the guy has a 98% tackle completion rate, he's the best in SA by far).. he got capped in 2013 (probably when Stander would have got the call... given he and Botha were very similar type players.

This reminds me of the EU referendum debate.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
If I was ever any good at anything that would enable me to represent Holland, I still would not do it as I am Irish. I just don't get how people can do that myself.

So you are telling me that if you were a professional sportsman, and that was your livelyhood, you would refuse to represent Holland, even if it meant earning comfortable living doing something you love, if Ireland weren't interested in your services? You would accept a lower income, or even change career to something you enjoyed less?

In truth it is no different to anyone migrating to another country, for work and lifestyle. The reality is when you get paid to do something it is your profession and people need to do what they need to do to provide for them and their family.

Actually I would. Easy to say since I am not in that position but I am fierce loyal to Ireland.

But yet you migrated to ply your trade and skills elsewhere, which I'm not judging, but I don't see how this is different to a pro rugby player doing the same?

Most Argentinian players play all over Europe as pro players, they don't represent their host nations though

He wasn't going to grow, fa He'd done his growing. They said he hadn't made the mark on the wall. Didn't matter how good he got, he'd still have to jump to pass the test.

Munchkin wrote:I believe it weakens the sense of identity and devalues the shirt..

That is exactly how I feel. I identify with "MY" team, and my team is represented with what we develop and nurture, not someone else.

For me test rugby is us vs them. I don't want them in my team

fa0019 wrote:

Most Argentinian players play all over Europe as pro players, they don't represent their host nations though

Yet.........

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Most Argentinian players play all over Europe as pro players, they don't represent their host nations though

Yet.........

you mean playing club rugby on foreign shores is at least in the same ballpark as playing for another country?

fa0019 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

fa0019 wrote:

Most Argentinian players play all over Europe as pro players, they don't represent their host nations though

Yet.........

you mean playing club rugby on foreign shores is at least in the same ballpark as playing for another country?

No. I simply mean 'yet'.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
If I was ever any good at anything that would enable me to represent Holland, I still would not do it as I am Irish. I just don't get how people can do that myself.

So you are telling me that if you were a professional sportsman, and that was your livelyhood, you would refuse to represent Holland, even if it meant earning comfortable living doing something you love, if Ireland weren't interested in your services? You would accept a lower income, or even change career to something you enjoyed less?

In truth it is no different to anyone migrating to another country, for work and lifestyle. The reality is when you get paid to do something it is your profession and people need to do what they need to do to provide for them and their family.

Actually I would. Easy to say since I am not in that position but I am fierce loyal to Ireland.

But yet you migrated to ply your trade and skills elsewhere, which I'm not judging, but I don't see how this is different to a pro rugby player doing the same?

No I migrated because my wife at the time was Dutch. Stayed because I liked the life style here. Still have a house in Ireland though (and now have to go to Southport in England sigh) but still very much a proud Irishman. Pretty much a carbon copy of Gibson's life only that langer lives in Amsterdam

Well I am looking forward to the weekend, it will be the first weekend where I will actively be watching rugby this year.

Biltong wrote:Yeah, we seem to have a lot of these traitors these days, every dog with a pound to spare is milking the system.

Nothing we can do about it, our politics and economy encourages it.

Those who benefit from it smiles and claims them as their own, so we (well I) just speak my mind.

Simples

To be honest, the frustration is certainly justified. The residency laws must be changed and I believe that there should be stricter policies to ensure players remain in their native country if they wish to represent the national team.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Biltong wrote:Yeah, we seem to have a lot of these traitors these days, every dog with a pound to spare is milking the system.

Nothing we can do about it, our politics and economy encourages it.

Those who benefit from it smiles and claims them as their own, so we (well I) just speak my mind.

Simples

To be honest, the frustration is certainly justified. The residency laws must be changed and I believe that there should be stricter policies to ensure players remain in their native country if they wish to represent the national team.

As far as the residency rule, I take that with a bit of salt to be honest. If it happens it happens, I have my doubts.

SARU is not helping the issue by allowing overseas players to be selected though.

There's three things to note about CJ Stander

1) He was told he was too small to play back row for South Africa by a high-level coach
2) He was told his only chance of playing test rugby was moving to hooker by the same coach
3) Even had he taken that advice, he would be looking on now and seeing that the reserve hooker for the Boks this weekend is picked because of the colour of his skin.

Would any of us honestly be able to say we'd just accept that? Or would we do whatever it takes to play at the highest level?

Now let me say this- I do not support residency naturalisation after three years. I think it needs to be changed for the sake of World Rugby. But that is to protect nations like Fiji, Samoa etc. and minnows. In the case of South African rugby, I would never blame any player for deciding they should play for another nation.

1) There is a fixation on size which leaves some truly outstanding players unfairly neglected
2) Within South African sporting culture, the criticism is unbelievable and highly personal if the team under performs. The fans seem to turn on players in incredibly harsh ways if they commit the cardinal crime of having a bad game, but then demand absolute loyalty in return. I've observed this with South African players in Ulster who are absolutely amazed that even when the team performs badly the fans still turn up to support it and there is no abuse of players. Ruan Pienaar is a case in point- a sublimely gifted player who would walk into most test rugby sides is regularly lambasted on online forums and in the press in SA. Maybe a cultural difference but when I read South African rugby blogs I'm often shocked at the level of aggression in there comments addressed towards players. It's incredibly hostile and unforgiving.
3) Even if you put up with that and tick all the boxes, even if you work hard all your life and are genuinely the best of the best, the Sports Minister and the SA government don't care if you don't fulfil a racial quota. There used to be 23 places up for grabs. If you are the wrong ethnicity, soon there will only be 11 or 12 places if the SA government has it's way.

I would say to anyone who is in an abusive relationship that they have the right to get up and leave, and this is the rugby equivalent. A player who is neglected, whose potential is stifled in their home nation, has a right to explore their options. So while I believe the residency loophole should be ended post haste I also would like to congratulate CJ Stander on proving a lot of people back in South Africa wrong and hope he continues his excellent form. He's proud to pull on the Irish jersey not because he's Irish, but because after South African rugby treated him like it did Ireland was the country who invested in him and helped him reach his potential. Well, that being the case, I'm very proud to have him and I'm very proud to see him represent Ireland. There's no doubt whatsoever that he gives as much or more effort as anyone else when he pulls on the jersey and is as passionate as any other player.

Notch wrote:There's three things to note about CJ Stander

1) He was told he was too small to play back row for South Africa by a high-level coach
2) He was told his only chance of playing test rugby was moving to hooker by the same coach
3) Even had he taken that advice, he would be looking on now and seeing that the reserve hooker for the Boks this weekend is picked because of the colour of his skin.

Would any of us honestly be able to say we'd just accept that? Or would we do whatever it takes to play at the highest level?

Now let me say this- I do not support residency naturalisation after three years. I think it needs to be changed for the sake of World Rugby. But that is to protect nations like Fiji, Samoa etc. and minnows. In the case of South African rugby, I would never blame any player for deciding they should play for another nation.

1) There is a fixation on size which leaves some truly outstanding players unfairly neglected
2) Within South African sporting culture, the criticism is unbelievable and highly personal if the team under performs. The fans seem to turn on players in incredibly harsh ways if they commit the cardinal crime of having a bad game, but then demand absolute loyalty in return. I've observed this with South African players in Ulster who are absolutely amazed that even when the team performs badly the fans still turn up to support it and there is no abuse of players. Ruan Pienaar is a case in point- a sublimely gifted player who would walk into most test rugby sides is regularly lambasted on online forums and in the press in SA. Maybe a cultural difference but when I read South African rugby blogs I'm often shocked at the level of aggression in there comments addressed towards players. It's incredibly hostile and unforgiving.
3) Even if you put up with that and tick all the boxes, even if you work hard all your life and are genuinely the best of the best, the Sports Minister and the SA government don't care if you don't fulfil a racial quota. There used to be 23 places up for grabs. If you are the wrong ethnicity, soon there will only be 11 or 12 places if the SA government has it's way.

I would say to anyone who is in an abusive relationship that they have the right to get up and leave, and this is the rugby equivalent. A player who is neglected, whose potential is stifled in their home nation, has a right to explore their options. So while I believe the residency loophole should be ended post haste I also would like to congratulate CJ Stander on proving a lot of people back in South Africa wrong and hope he continues his excellent form. He's proud to pull on the Irish jersey not because he's Irish, but because after South African rugby treated him like it did Ireland was the country who invested in him and helped him reach his potential. Well, that being the case, I'm very proud to have him and I'm very proud to see him represent Ireland. And the word traitor only has as much meaning as the thing you 'betray'.

Notch, I don't often disagree or criticise anything you say, but that sounds a bit like some righteous dribble. Every nation has an element of aggressive supporters who take no care in whether they respect players.

And yes I take note that you disagree with the residency issue.

But let us also remember your country benefits from all that you are saying.

Easy to be more righteous and forgiving when you sit on that side of the fence

So..., the list of Nations that has never used players born in another Country.

SecretFly wrote:So..., the list of Nations that has never used players born in another Country.

Born is not the issue, Andrew Mehrtens was born in SA, we never claimed him. He grew up n NZ and is a product of NZ rugby.

It will be interesting to see how Jackson goes this weekend against a really top team, players at 10 need that level of competition to get better and be ready for when they are number 1.

Biltong I don't often disagree with what you say, but when you yourself throw around highly abusive and emotive terms like 'traitor' does it not kind of prove my point for me? No matter how passionate you or I are about rugby, it's a hobby and something to enjoy in our spare time compared to your career and livelihood. We are in no position to judge anybody. We simply do not have that right. Rugby players owe us nothing, rugby itself owes us nothing- and if we don't like the way it goes we are completely free to find something else to do with our time. The world is full of interesting things to do and we will not be missed

In any event, as you have said, this is all about opinions and we'll have to agree to disagree. I will remain an advocate of making it much harder to qualify for nations on residency, and I will continue to agree with you that World Rugby needs to act to change these laws, but I will also remain an advocate for players and their choices to be respected. Ireland may benefit form project players but I do not believe it is right that we can select them. However, if they show they are passionate about playing for the shirt then I will support all who are selected until the day the rule is changed.

I first watched Stander playing for the Blue Bulls in Currie Cup rugby a few years ago, he was a very talented player back then, a lot like now. I wasn't sure why he couldn't get a look in with the boks. I don't think Ireland have brought up to the required level, but if you're told that you are too small when you're not even small then that's going to cut pretty deep...

Biltong wrote:

SecretFly wrote:So..., the list of Nations that has never used players born in another Country.

Born is not the issue, Andrew Mehrtens was born in SA, we never claimed him. He grew up n NZ and is a product of NZ rugby.

Nah, that's a get-out-of-jail argument that quite a few Nations could drop a holier-than-thou attitude on, Bilt. I'm getting that holier-than-thou attitude.

I am surprised at the reaction I get for the word traitor.


When you turn your back on your country for another what are you, an opportunist?

Turncoat?

Disloyal?

Which word is more acceptable in First world countries?'

Lucky?

Good on you for getting the heck outta there?