South Africa v Ireland, 11 June

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SOUTH AFRICA v IRELAND
11 June 2016
17:00 SAST (UTC+02)
DHL Newlands, Cape Town

Live on Sky Sports

Referee: Mathieu Raynal (France)
Touch judges: [tbc]
Television match official: [tbc]

A. Head to Head

22 Played 22
16 Won 5
1 Drawn 1
5 Lost 16
422 Points 277

B. Recent Form

8 November 2014 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 29 – 15 to Ireland

10 November 2012 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 12 – 16 to South Africa

6 November 2010 - Aviva Stadium, Dublin: 21 – 23 to South Africa

28 November 2009 - Croke Park, Dublin: 15 – 10 to Ireland

11 November 2006 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 32 – 15 to Ireland

13 November 2004 - Lansdowne Road, Dublin: 17 – 12 to Ireland

19 June 2004 - Newlands, Cape Town: 26 – 17 to South Africa

C. Teams

SOUTH AFRICA 

15 Willie le Roux, 14 JP Pietersen, 13 Lionel Mapoe, 12 Damian de Allende, 11 Lwazi Mvovo, 10 Pat Lambie, 9 Faf de Klerk, 8 Duane Vermeulen, 7 Siya Kolisi, 6 Francois Louw, 5 Lood de Jager, 4 Eben Etzebeth, 3 Frans Malherbe, 2 Adriaan Strauss (captain), 1 Tendai Mtawarira

Substitutes: 16 Bongi Mbonambi 17 Trevor Nyakane 18 Julian Redelinghuys 19 Pieter-Steph du Toit 20 Warren Whiteley 21 Rudy Paige 22 Elton Jantjies 23 Jesse Kriel

IRELAND

J Payne; A Trimble, R Henshaw, L Marshall, K Earls; P Jackson, C Murray; J McGrath, R Best, M Ross; I Henderson, D Toner; CJ Stander, J Murphy, J Heaslip

Replacements: S Cronin, F Bealham, T Furlong, U Dillane, R Ruddock, K Marmion, I Madigan, C Gilroy.

Pot Hale wrote:
South Africa are going to come gunning at the breakdown and up front.  If Morne Steyn is likely to be in the side, can Ireland expect a torrid afternoon at the scrum with SA looking for penalties anywhere within 60m range of the posts given his range and altitude?

Steyn is not necessarily going into the XV but at altitude is mightn't be the worst pick

If I was Joe I'd use Jackson, Murray and Marshalls kicking abilities and play a territorial game and move Henderson to 6 with Dillane into the second row and really go for the Boks lineout

GunsGerms wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I honestly do believe that Irelands best chance of a win will be in the first match, catching SA cold. Ireland are in decline and the loss of Sexton is huge. As good as I think Jackson (if he gets a match) is, he is going to need some time playing Internationally to feel comfortable. Schmidt really missed the bus in not giving him game time in the 6N and showed an inability to build squad depth. Only injuries forced him to make changes.

Ireland are in decline? Haha.

We have easily the greatest ever coach in our history breaking records all the time.

How is he the greatest ever coach Ireland have had? Ireland scraped over the line in two 6N on points, had a shocking RWC (don't say injuries caused this as a great coach anticipates injuries and has a squad prepared not just a starting 15) and a poor 6N. I do believe he is a very good coach but as I have said on numerous occasions, he is too re-active and not pro-active in his selections. The best players in their best positions have been overlooked for his trusted players who were badly out of form. Injuries to key players forced his hand to select the form players in their best positions last weekend, this was not a master stroke from him it was necessity.

As for decline, although I do not believe in the ranking system it does reflect to a certain extent just how far Ireland have slipped, I believe the performances (last weekend excluded) have been predictable and dire.

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
South Africa are going to come gunning at the breakdown and up front.  If Morne Steyn is likely to be in the side, can Ireland expect a torrid afternoon at the scrum with SA looking for penalties anywhere within 60m range of the posts given his range and altitude?

Steyn is not necessarily going into the XV but at altitude is mightn't be the worst pick

If I was Joe I'd use Jackson, Murray and Marshalls kicking abilities and play a territorial game and move Henderson to 6 with Dillane into the second row and really go for the Boks lineout

That's a very good approach marty, pretty much how I see things. Toner will again be very important in the line out. If he can produce another stormer like last weekend then SA will be rocked.

eirebilly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I honestly do believe that Irelands best chance of a win will be in the first match, catching SA cold. Ireland are in decline and the loss of Sexton is huge. As good as I think Jackson (if he gets a match) is, he is going to need some time playing Internationally to feel comfortable. Schmidt really missed the bus in not giving him game time in the 6N and showed an inability to build squad depth. Only injuries forced him to make changes.

Ireland are in decline? Haha.

We have easily the greatest ever coach in our history breaking records all the time.

How is he the greatest ever coach Ireland have had? Ireland scraped over the line in two 6N on points, had a shocking RWC (don't say injuries caused this as a great coach anticipates injuries and has a squad prepared not just a starting 15) and a poor 6N.

What you on about billser?

Only the two 6N on points? We've only won a handful in our history and never back to back. Shocking RWC? We reached as far as we've ever done.

I believe we will beat NZ this year and hopefully wrap up a series win in SA and become the 3rd team in history to do it.

Unfortunately I believe this will be his parting shot to his critics and we'll appreciate once he's gone how great he is.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:

GunsGerms wrote:

eirebilly wrote:I honestly do believe that Irelands best chance of a win will be in the first match, catching SA cold. Ireland are in decline and the loss of Sexton is huge. As good as I think Jackson (if he gets a match) is, he is going to need some time playing Internationally to feel comfortable. Schmidt really missed the bus in not giving him game time in the 6N and showed an inability to build squad depth. Only injuries forced him to make changes.

Ireland are in decline? Haha.

We have easily the greatest ever coach in our history breaking records all the time.

How is he the greatest ever coach Ireland have had? Ireland scraped over the line in two 6N on points, had a shocking RWC (don't say injuries caused this as a great coach anticipates injuries and has a squad prepared not just a starting 15) and a poor 6N.

What you on about billser?

Only the two 6N on points? We've only won a handful in our history and never back to back. Shocking RWC? We reached as far as we've ever done.

I believe we will beat NZ this year and hopefully wrap up a series win in SA and become the 3rd team in history to do it.

Unfortunately I believe this will be his parting shot to his critics and we'll appreciate once he's gone how great he is.

Certainly the first home nations side. I think AUS (2), FRA (1), NZ (1) and the Lions (4) have series wins though.

I heard the highlanders want him mind for next season.

rodders, under Kidney Ireland won a GS, went a year undefeated and beat Australia in a RWC in New Zealand, that was some achievement was it not? Ok they went downhill rapidly after that but still an excellent achievement.

As I said, I do not believe that Schmidt is a bad coach, I find him to be a very good coach but I have issues with his selection policy and his tactics. During the recent 6N, I saw a marked improvement in the tactics but for me, he was selecting the wrong players in the wrong positions to do this.

I am sick of being painted a Schmidt hater for simply pointing out what I believe are some flaws in his approach whereas at the same time praising him for what he has achieved. Its the Payne situation over again, I say that he is a better 15 than 13, get accused of being a Payne hater when that was far from reality. Look how he played at 15 on the weekend, a lot of positive attacking play came from him at 15 so I may not have been too wrong in that assumption.

People need to read what is being said rather than jump to conclusions based on the fact that I am a Munster fan.

eirebilly wrote:rodders, under Kidney Ireland won a GS, went a year undefeated and beat Australia in a RWC in New Zealand, that was some achievement was it not? Ok they went downhill rapidly after that but still an excellent achievement.

Exactly the key point. The consistency we've achieved under Schmidt, with different groups of players, is like nothing in our history - not even close.

Have a look at Kidney's record without BOD and POC on the field.

Back to the present....

Hmmm. Are either of the Kearneys ready to be flown out yet to ensure the series victory?

eirebilly wrote:rodders, under Kidney Ireland won a GS, went a year undefeated and beat Australia in a RWC in New Zealand, that was some achievement was it not? Ok they went downhill rapidly after that but still an excellent achievement.

As I said, I do not believe that Schmidt is a bad coach, I find him to be a very good coach but I have issues with his selection policy and his tactics. During the recent 6N, I saw a marked improvement in the tactics but for me, he was selecting the wrong players in the wrong positions to do this.

I am sick of being painted a Schmidt hater for simply pointing out what I believe are some flaws in his approach whereas at the same time praising him for what he has achieved. Its the Payne situation over again, I say that he is a better 15 than 13, get accused of being a Payne hater when that was far from reality. Look how he played at 15 on the weekend, a lot of positive attacking play came from him at 15 so I may not have been too wrong in that assumption.

People need to read what is being said rather than jump to conclusions based on the fact that I am a Munster fan.

I think at times he has been too conservative and stuck to what he knows, but let's be realistic under Joe we are the best we have been in my memory. I think he has been our best coach and probably more importantly there's no other coach in world rugby I would be willing to swap him for

toml wrote:

eirebilly wrote:rodders, under Kidney Ireland won a GS, went a year undefeated and beat Australia in a RWC in New Zealand, that was some achievement was it not? Ok they went downhill rapidly after that but still an excellent achievement.

As I said, I do not believe that Schmidt is a bad coach, I find him to be a very good coach but I have issues with his selection policy and his tactics. During the recent 6N, I saw a marked improvement in the tactics but for me, he was selecting the wrong players in the wrong positions to do this.

I am sick of being painted a Schmidt hater for simply pointing out what I believe are some flaws in his approach whereas at the same time praising him for what he has achieved. Its the Payne situation over again, I say that he is a better 15 than 13, get accused of being a Payne hater when that was far from reality. Look how he played at 15 on the weekend, a lot of positive attacking play came from him at 15 so I may not have been too wrong in that assumption.

People need to read what is being said rather than jump to conclusions based on the fact that I am a Munster fan.

I think at times he has been too conservative and stuck to what he knows, but let's be realistic under Joe we are the best we have been in my memory. I think he has been our best coach and probably more importantly there's no other coach in world rugby I would be willing to swap him for

I concur.

Maybe I am being too conservative though

Plus...as I said before. He wasn't exactly letting the 'correct' players do their own thing. He was clearly seen orchestrating positions on the field right to the death. This is a coach coach. He works for a living.

So some of them may not be his 'favourites' but he's still the conductor.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:rodders, under Kidney Ireland won a GS, went a year undefeated and beat Australia in a RWC in New Zealand, that was some achievement was it not? Ok they went downhill rapidly after that but still an excellent achievement.

Exactly the key point. The consistency we've achieved under Schmidt, with different groups of players, is like nothing in our history - not even close.

Have a look at Kidney's record without BOD and POC on the field.

Without doing any serious homework but since the 2015 6N (RWC warmups, RWC and this 6N) I have the feeling that Irelands winning percentage would be 50% or under. The only teams of note they beat were Wales in a warmup, a terrible French team in the RWC and drew with Wales this 6N. I do not believe that is acceptable for an Irish team with so much talent, do you?

eirebilly wrote:

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:rodders, under Kidney Ireland won a GS, went a year undefeated and beat Australia in a RWC in New Zealand, that was some achievement was it not? Ok they went downhill rapidly after that but still an excellent achievement.

Exactly the key point. The consistency we've achieved under Schmidt, with different groups of players, is like nothing in our history - not even close.

Have a look at Kidney's record without BOD and POC on the field.

Without doing any serious homework but since the 2015 6N (RWC warmups, RWC and this 6N) I have the feeling that Irelands winning percentage would be 50% or under. The only teams of note they beat were Wales in a warmup, a terrible French team in the RWC and drew with Wales this 6N. I do not believe that is acceptable for an Irish team with so much talent, do you?

You don't think beating SA in SA is of note?

You know I meant before this series rodders... I was responding to my comment about Ireland being in decline which was made before the victory in SA.

eirebilly wrote: The only teams of note they beat were Wales in a warmup, a terrible French team in the RWC and drew with Wales this 6N. I do not believe that is acceptable for an Irish team with so much talent, do you?

We have another Golden Generation on our hands, billy?

Well let's not fret then, someone other than Schmidt will probably be coaching them soon enough if those reports prove true.

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote: The only teams of note they beat were Wales in a warmup, a terrible French team in the RWC and drew with Wales this 6N. I do not believe that is acceptable for an Irish team with so much talent, do you?

We have another Golden Generation on our hands, billy?

Well let's not fret then, someone other than Schmidt will probably be coaching them soon enough if those reports prove true.

Again, I do not want Schmidt to leave... I am backing up my point about Ireland's decline and countering peoples views that Schmidt is the best coach ever because although I feel he is a very good coach, I dislike his selection policy. Far too re-active for my liking.

I also did not say that Ireland have a golden generation but there is a lot of talent around to put in better performance than the last 12months.

eirebilly wrote:You know I meant before this series rodders... I was responding to my comment about Ireland being in decline which was made before the victory in SA.

I thought you were responding to my comment about Ireland's consistency under Schmidt.

I know you don't agree but I don't consider the RWC warm-ups as competitive games, otherwise you could argue we were only marginally better than Bayonne's 3rd string at a period under EOS.

We have had to deal with the retirement of 2 of our greatest ever players, and most recently our captain so you could argue this 6N was a transitional period under a new captain in Best and/or us having a RWC hangover.

I don't think the 6N was good enough but I'll wait until the end of the year to decide if it is a blip or decline but based on the weekend I think we are in a good place and possibly even on an upward curve under Joe, Farrell and Easterbuy.

Relax eirebilly, Joe will be gone off to New Zealand soon enough and we won't have to worry about his conservative style and declining performances for much longer.

rodders wrote:

eirebilly wrote:You know I meant before this series rodders... I was responding to my comment about Ireland being in decline which was made before the victory in SA.

I thought you were responding to my comment about Ireland's consistency under Schmidt.

I know you don't agree but I don't consider the RWC warm-ups as competitive games, otherwise you could argue we were only marginally better than Bayonne's 3rd string at a period under EOS.

We have had to deal with the retirement of 2 of our greatest ever players, and most recently our captain so you could argue this 6N was a transitional period under a new captain in Best and/or us having a RWC hangover.

I don't think the 6N was good enough but I'll wait until the end of the year to decide if it is a blip or decline but based on the weekend I think we are in a good place and possibly even on an upward curve under Joe, Farrell and Easterbuy.

For Ireland to really improve, I feel that Schmidt must now pick the best players in their correct positions consistently. If he returns to the same mould of picking his favourites (regardless of form) then I feel Ireland will struggle under him.

Last weekends win, forced or not, was a breath of fresh air.

eirebilly wrote:

For Ireland to really improve, I feel that Schmidt must now pick the best players in their correct positions consistently. If he returns to the same mould of picking his favourites (regardless of form) then I feel Ireland will struggle under him.

Last weekends win, forced or not, was a breath of fresh air.

Will he have a Fan committee drawn up to tell him what the best players are and what their correct positions are?

I've often criticised Schmidt in the past and, bizarrely enough, it's usually for the job he does...coaching - not simply his player choices.

I've often said that if Kearney is running headlong into trouble match after match after match...someone has to tell him it's not good, that he needs to modify his approach, that he needs to be sharper at evasion than at finding the closest guy to charge into.
I've also said Murray shouldn't have to be dropped to quicken his delivery, he should be simply told it needs to be quicker more often.  That's a coach's role - to modify behaviour to suit his plans.
Only then, if a player can't modify, do you get around to this bunk about the player choice - which is the 'right' player and which is the 'wrong' player.  

Schmidt, if he were a fan here, mouthing off on 606 like the rest of us; he'd have his own opinions.  And he might agree with rodders sometime, he might agree with billy sometime, he might even disagree with me very rarely - but he's making HIS choices for HIS OWN reasons.  Why can't people get that?

How many times has it been proven to us that Provincial Pro12 standards of excellence aren't necessarily the same as International standards.  But that's the criteria people want him to use - right?  

If all players were fit in all Provinces, and if he had indeed used that criteria - the recent evidence is that Schmidt's 'favourite' players played a damn good game against many of the players that were involved in the game last weekend.  One of those players being Sexton himself, who had a damn fine game and made the 10 position look like a walk in the park.  He and others would have been on the field billy, had Schmidt had a full hand and adopted your kind of policy about best players in correct positions.

SecretFly wrote:
I've also said Murray shouldn't have to be dropped to quicken his delivery, he should be simply told it needs to be quicker more often.  That's a coach's role - to modify behaviour to suit his plans.

How ironic then, the one time we wanted young Murray to slow the ball down for a couple of phases to close out a game he's far to quick to deliver it (to the opposition)....

He listened to my criticisms too closely

He took them to heart too much.  He wanted to prove that bastrede on f**king 606 wrong, innit!

Murray...good work.  But you can slow down when need be too - my commands aren't written in stone - yet.

You and billy would make a good coaching team once Schmidt leaves fly

I'd do the coaching, billy would do the player picking.

So I'd end up blaming him in interviews

Good point, Fly. Eddie Jones has picked pretty much the same players that Lancaster picked, but what he has been telling them to do has made the difference.

I understand what you are saying Fly and I believe you are correct for certain players. Rob Kearney, however, has not been in good form for a long time. I actually think that he may be at the end of the road as I think its age that has got him, not more time spent training. TOH is the new kid on the block and is going to be a star for Ireland.

If it is, as you imply, better coaching is required for certain players. Why hasn't/isn't the greatest coach on this earth recognising this and acting on it?

eirebilly wrote:
If it is, as you imply, better coaching is required for certain players. Why hasn't/isn't the greatest coach on this earth recognising this and acting on it?

None of us are perfect billy....except me. That's how the world is

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
If it is, as you imply, better coaching is required for certain players. Why hasn't/isn't the greatest coach on this earth recognising this and acting on it?

None of us are perfect billy....except me.  That's how the world is

Careful now Fly, some on here may see that as a criticism of Schmidt. You may also be labelled a Schmidt hater after that observation

eirebilly wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

eirebilly wrote:
If it is, as you imply, better coaching is required for certain players. Why hasn't/isn't the greatest coach on this earth recognising this and acting on it?

None of us are perfect billy....except me.  That's how the world is

Careful now Fly, some on here may see that as a criticism of Schmidt. You may also be labelled a Schmidt hater after that observation

I love humans billy, despite most of them being basterdes!    
Nothing wrong with being fallible and human.  

My reactions to all of this about Schmidt is my reactions to seeing it in too many places, not just in 606.  Nothing is directed at you personally.  You have a right to your opinions and you're a grand man .  

Schmidt sometimes gets things wrong, he sometimes doesn't push an attack game as much as I'd like, sometimes I think he substitutes too late in a game - the usual stuff that all coaches have to live with from nervous, passionate fans

But for me, as a coach and as a person, he doesn't deserve the 'campaign' feel that I sometimes get when I listen to the media from some sources - he doesn't deserve being blamed for the fate of past coaches or being dragged into that very Irish tribal thing where if you said something bad about my guy then I'm going to remember it and say something bad about your guy a few years later.

I've been reading other media and then looking at the comments sections - I'm just tired of that mood that I'm getting, billy, and that frustration bubbles into 606.

Let's all choose to smile, enjoy and hope instead.

I certainly try not to be bias Fly. I try to keep things in perspective and say what I feel, I get unfairly painted on this site by some lazy posters who do try and introduce provincial bias into comments made by me.

As I earlier said, the best thing Schmidt did on Saturday was continue to show faith in Jackson after the intercept try. Really felt that he would have dragged him off and get Madigan to see out the game but he chose to show faith in him and let him finish the game, that alone will give Jackson massive belief in himself.

marty2086 wrote:

Pot Hale wrote:
South Africa are going to come gunning at the breakdown and up front.  If Morne Steyn is likely to be in the side, can Ireland expect a torrid afternoon at the scrum with SA looking for penalties anywhere within 60m range of the posts given his range and altitude?

Steyn is not necessarily going into the XV but at altitude is mightn't be the worst pick

If I was Joe I'd use Jackson, Murray and Marshalls kicking abilities and play a territorial game and move Henderson to 6 with Dillane into the second row and really go for the Boks lineout

So having proven that a wide off-loading game defeated the Boks in Capetown, Ireland should change to a set-piece territorial game - is there a clue in there somewhere why Schmidt is so misunderstood?

I have just watched this game - I know that makes me Jonny come Lately but I did enjoy it.

A couple of observations ( I haven't red the whole thread so forgive me)

the red card - maybe a bit harsh but as the ref said he made no attempt to charge down and was slightly late. Cast iron yellow and always flirting with a red.

Irelands tactics won them the game, SAs tactics lost it. The number of times SA had men free out wide but didn't get the ball to them was simply unbelievable.

Ireland had the heat, the courage and the brains to win. Well done and well deserved.

I think we're going to lose the 2nd test though. I think we'll make a good go of it in the first half but will wilt in the second half due to altitude. Hope I'm wrong - but I think I'm right

SecretFly wrote:I think we're going to lose the 2nd test though.  I think we'll make a good go of it in the first half but will wilt in the second half due to altitude.  Hope I'm wrong - but I think I'm right

Fantastic, my wish to time travel back to before the eu referendum worked!

rodders wrote:

SecretFly wrote:I think we're going to lose the 2nd test though.  I think we'll make a good go of it in the first half but will wilt in the second half due to altitude.  Hope I'm wrong - but I think I'm right

Fantastic, my wish to time travel back to before the eu referendum worked!

You still need to find about 1.5 million votes in a few weeks time, rodders. Get campaigning! I'm going to sit it out this time, I've talked long enough to TopHat.