The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

by Derbymanc Sat Jun 11, 2016 11:15 am

First topic message reminder :

Hopefully it will stop the arguments about Gib and we can tell Spain to pee off

by **Hero** Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:49 pm

Referendums reduce us to binary thinking...

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:53 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:55 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

Bloody hell, lad, that was over two years ago!

England and Jason Day set me on my way last summer- £1,000 on the former winning the Ashes at 9/2, a couple of hundred on the latter at 11/1.

Never looked back since. Except for now, as I blissfully recollect.

by Mind the windows Tino. Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:57 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

I smell a touch of something, I know that much.

If I'd have had a spare £2,000 at 20, I'd have been laying in my own vomit somewhere outside a night club, not betting on a referendum.

It's one of the most depressing things I've ever read.

by mikey_dragon Tue Jun 14, 2016 3:58 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The poorer regions in Wales certainly don't see any of this money? Taxes from England and Wales seem to be going outside the UK, rather than inside it. I think most Brexiters know we also need a change in government (for the love of god labour just elect a good leader) but to be fair to Cameron he has listened to what the populous wanted; he took all of the proposals to EU (where he has to get his permission to spend lunch money ffs) only to have them rejected by Brussels and Merkel. Might this government operate differently outside of the EU?

RDA. Google it.

Top result = http://www.rda.org.uk/ - ummmm.....

Regional Development Aid, try again.

And CAP, whilst you're at it, unless you're going to claim a land synonymous with sheep farming actually has no farming industry....

I seen it a but further down the list. I was trying to be funny - class idea this rda though, I think I'll donate.

Not claiming anything of the sort. Funny your view is at odds with the farmers here who will be voting out.

Then the farmers are idiots. Possibly the stupidest thing a farmer could ever do given that the EU bails out their failing industry every year.

Unless they're taking a massive punt on, funnily enough, LEAVE's BS £350m claim still being proportionately spent on farming subsidies.

They're born and raised in agriculture, and you think you know what's best for them? Take a day off...

There seems to be more uncertainty than there is inners and outers in the agricultural industry. I also had a quick read of this, which actually left me with more questions than answers: https://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/your-letters-on-the-eu-referendum-debate.htm - if they themselves are this uncertain there's no way a non-farmer could be so certain.

by Corporalhumblebucket Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:00 pm

Duty281 wrote:There are no benefits to the EU for the obvious reason - anything that they have done could have been achieved by our own government.

They've robbed us of our sovereign Parliament, but in return we get cleaner beaches - so amazing.

Well, I suppose we might as well start getting used to it. If the polls are to be believed we may well end up with an array of fruitcakes in government!

by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:01 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

Bloody hell, lad, that was over two years ago!

England and Jason Day set me on my way last summer- £1,000 on the former winning the Ashes at 9/2, a couple of hundred on the latter at 11/1.

Never looked back since. Except for now, as I blissfully recollect.

Seen so many go down the route of being gambler. Doesn't end well, makes me worry that you threw 1000 pounds on a bet when unemployed.

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:09 pm

No 7&1/2 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

Bloody hell, lad, that was over two years ago!

England and Jason Day set me on my way last summer- £1,000 on the former winning the Ashes at 9/2, a couple of hundred on the latter at 11/1.

Never looked back since. Except for now, as I blissfully recollect.

Seen so many go down the route of being gambler. Doesn't end well, makes me worry that you threw 1000 pounds on a bet when unemployed.

No, no, no, TopHat is referring to late 2013/early 2014 when I was unemployed and broke.

I was employed when I chucked a grand on England - otherwise I wouldn't have had said grand! - but I do appreciate your concern.

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:10 pm

Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

I smell a touch of something, I know that much.

If I'd have had a spare £2,000 at 20, I'd have been laying in my own vomit somewhere outside a night club, not betting on a referendum.

It's one of the most depressing things I've ever read.

But think of all the vomit-induced evenings I can have with £11,000.

by No 7&1/2 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:10 pm

Phew thank god for the EU.

by **superflyweight** Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:14 pm

Working for 6 months and you had a grand to p1ss away after a period of unemployment. Did you live on grass and rain water?

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:16 pm

superflyweight wrote:Working for 6 months and you had a grand to p1ss away after a period of unemployment. Did you live on grass and rain water?

Six months?

A year and five months (roughly), is closer to the truth.

by **superflyweight** Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:19 pm

I never claimed to be good at basic arithmetic or reading.

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The poorer regions in Wales certainly don't see any of this money? Taxes from England and Wales seem to be going outside the UK, rather than inside it. I think most Brexiters know we also need a change in government (for the love of god labour just elect a good leader) but to be fair to Cameron he has listened to what the populous wanted; he took all of the proposals to EU (where he has to get his permission to spend lunch money ffs) only to have them rejected by Brussels and Merkel. Might this government operate differently outside of the EU?

RDA. Google it.

Top result = http://www.rda.org.uk/ - ummmm.....

Regional Development Aid, try again.

And CAP, whilst you're at it, unless you're going to claim a land synonymous with sheep farming actually has no farming industry....

I seen it a but further down the list. I was trying to be funny - class idea this rda though, I think I'll donate.

Not claiming anything of the sort. Funny your view is at odds with the farmers here who will be voting out.

Then the farmers are idiots. Possibly the stupidest thing a farmer could ever do given that the EU bails out their failing industry every year.

Unless they're taking a massive punt on, funnily enough, LEAVE's BS £350m claim still being proportionately spent on farming subsidies.

They're born and raised in agriculture, and you think you know what's best for them? Take a day off...

There seems to be more uncertainty than there is inners and outers in the agricultural industry. I also had a quick read of this, which actually left me with more questions than answers: https://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/your-letters-on-the-eu-referendum-debate.htm - if they themselves are this uncertain there's no way a non-farmer could be so certain.

So more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact) and the Farmers Union (for this reason) backs remain......but I'm expected to believe you/the farmers you are talking about have a fooking scoobies what they're doing/talking about in wanting to LEAVE??

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:21 pm

Duty281 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

I smell a touch of something, I know that much.

If I'd have had a spare £2,000 at 20, I'd have been laying in my own vomit somewhere outside a night club, not betting on a referendum.

It's one of the most depressing things I've ever read.

But think of all the vomit-induced evenings I can have with £11,000.

That depends on where you choose to go. I'd stay local, as £11k will probably be worth about $5 or 3 Euros after a Leave vote. Still, it'll bring some cheer to the exporters, and hopefully make up for the tariffs!

I'm not a gambling man. Best win was about £200 on the Grand National two years ago.

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:22 pm

Point still stands. That's fooking ridiculous unless you sucking sucking benefits up through a straw, getting bailed out by your parents or going from unemployed to a bloody trading floor whizz.

Or you are just lying.

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:30 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

I smell a touch of something, I know that much.

If I'd have had a spare £2,000 at 20, I'd have been laying in my own vomit somewhere outside a night club, not betting on a referendum.

It's one of the most depressing things I've ever read.

But think of all the vomit-induced evenings I can have with £11,000.

That depends on where you choose to go. I'd stay local, as £11k will probably be worth about $5 or 3 Euros after a Leave vote. Still, it'll bring some cheer to the exporters, and hopefully make up for the tariffs!

I'm not a gambling man. Best win was about £200 on the Grand National two years ago.

If you like horses, Mecca's Angel is presently 7/4 for the 15:40 at Ascot.

Oh damn, now I've gone and jinxed it.

by mikey_dragon Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:37 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The poorer regions in Wales certainly don't see any of this money? Taxes from England and Wales seem to be going outside the UK, rather than inside it. I think most Brexiters know we also need a change in government (for the love of god labour just elect a good leader) but to be fair to Cameron he has listened to what the populous wanted; he took all of the proposals to EU (where he has to get his permission to spend lunch money ffs) only to have them rejected by Brussels and Merkel. Might this government operate differently outside of the EU?

RDA. Google it.

Top result = http://www.rda.org.uk/ - ummmm.....

Regional Development Aid, try again.

And CAP, whilst you're at it, unless you're going to claim a land synonymous with sheep farming actually has no farming industry....

I seen it a but further down the list. I was trying to be funny - class idea this rda though, I think I'll donate.

Not claiming anything of the sort. Funny your view is at odds with the farmers here who will be voting out.

Then the farmers are idiots. Possibly the stupidest thing a farmer could ever do given that the EU bails out their failing industry every year.

Unless they're taking a massive punt on, funnily enough, LEAVE's BS £350m claim still being proportionately spent on farming subsidies.

They're born and raised in agriculture, and you think you know what's best for them? Take a day off...

There seems to be more uncertainty than there is inners and outers in the agricultural industry. I also had a quick read of this, which actually left me with more questions than answers: https://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/your-letters-on-the-eu-referendum-debate.htm - if they themselves are this uncertain there's no way a non-farmer could be so certain.

So more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact) and the Farmers Union (for this reason) backs remain......but I'm expected to believe you/the farmers you are talking about have a fooking scoobies what they're doing/talking about in wanting to LEAVE??

Where did you get this information from? I'm hoping you'll provide me with a source that can provide certainty, much unlike the last guy. Doesn't a lot more EU bail-out money go to countries elsewhere? Surely I don't need to point out which countries...
You didn't read the link then. Shame, it could have provided you with their perspective on the matter, the ones of both sides of the fence. No I'm not a farmer and my reasons for backing leave have nothing to do with agriculture. And yes I do believe that any farmer knows what is best for them, not some random remainer on the net!

by **superflyweight** Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:37 pm

Duty281 wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Mind the windows Tino. wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Well I got on Leave while the going was good (£2,000 at 9/2).

IQ in the top 2% of the country, £2,000 to chuck around on Referendums!

I want to be just like you when I grow up.

Not bad for a kid who was always complaining about being unemployed.....

I smell a touch of the Champagne_Socialists......

I smell a touch of something, I know that much.

If I'd have had a spare £2,000 at 20, I'd have been laying in my own vomit somewhere outside a night club, not betting on a referendum.

It's one of the most depressing things I've ever read.

But think of all the vomit-induced evenings I can have with £11,000.

That depends on where you choose to go. I'd stay local, as £11k will probably be worth about $5 or 3 Euros after a Leave vote. Still, it'll bring some cheer to the exporters, and hopefully make up for the tariffs!

I'm not a gambling man. Best win was about £200 on the Grand National two years ago.

If you like horses, Mecca's Angel is presently 7/4 for the 15:40 at Ascot.

Oh damn, now I've gone and jinxed it.

Can't imagine many Leave voters praying to Mecca.

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:49 pm

See, told you I jinxed it! Very Happy

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:52 pm

Back on topic, another swing to Leave:

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 40% (-1)
Leave: 47% (+4)
(via TNS, online)

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:54 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The poorer regions in Wales certainly don't see any of this money? Taxes from England and Wales seem to be going outside the UK, rather than inside it. I think most Brexiters know we also need a change in government (for the love of god labour just elect a good leader) but to be fair to Cameron he has listened to what the populous wanted; he took all of the proposals to EU (where he has to get his permission to spend lunch money ffs) only to have them rejected by Brussels and Merkel. Might this government operate differently outside of the EU?

RDA. Google it.

Top result = http://www.rda.org.uk/ - ummmm.....

Regional Development Aid, try again.

And CAP, whilst you're at it, unless you're going to claim a land synonymous with sheep farming actually has no farming industry....

I seen it a but further down the list. I was trying to be funny - class idea this rda though, I think I'll donate.

Not claiming anything of the sort. Funny your view is at odds with the farmers here who will be voting out.

Then the farmers are idiots. Possibly the stupidest thing a farmer could ever do given that the EU bails out their failing industry every year.

Unless they're taking a massive punt on, funnily enough, LEAVE's BS £350m claim still being proportionately spent on farming subsidies.

They're born and raised in agriculture, and you think you know what's best for them? Take a day off...

There seems to be more uncertainty than there is inners and outers in the agricultural industry. I also had a quick read of this, which actually left me with more questions than answers: https://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/your-letters-on-the-eu-referendum-debate.htm - if they themselves are this uncertain there's no way a non-farmer could be so certain.

So more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact) and the Farmers Union (for this reason) backs remain......but I'm expected to believe you/the farmers you are talking about have a fooking scoobies what they're doing/talking about in wanting to LEAVE??

Where did you get this information from? I'm hoping you'll provide me with a source that can provide certainty, much unlike the last guy. Doesn't a lot more EU bail-out money go to countries elsewhere? Surely I don't need to point out which countries...
You didn't read the link then. Shame, it could have provided you with their perspective on the matter, the ones of both sides of the fence. No I'm not a farmer and my reasons for backing leave have nothing to do with agriculture. And yes I do believe that any farmer knows what is best for them, not some random remainer on the net!

Why is everyone else always doig the running around for you ref sources for well known things??

CAP making up the bulk of the EU buget spend as been one of the biggest grumbles ref the EU for 30 years!! It was the reason for Thatcher negotiating our rebate.

And I'm not talking as a random remainer. I'm saying the same of the national farmers union FFS. And stating the bleeding obvious. But yes, of course, stupidity can never be acknowledged as a reason/excuse.

by **ShahenshahG** Tue Jun 14, 2016 4:57 pm

He's just winding you up. No one can be that stupid

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:06 pm

The Sandal Bomber wrote:He's just winding you up. No one can be that stupid

Well, he is a LEAVER......

by **ShahenshahG** Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:27 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
The Sandal Bomber wrote:He's just winding you up. No one can be that stupid

Well, he is a LEAVER......

I don't think so, no school could bear the ignominy of being left by him so I suspect he was expelled from the G W Bush School of Like Minds and Evil Pretzels.

by LordDowlais Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:48 pm

What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 5:57 pm

LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

by SecretFly Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:01 pm

Village idiots?

Villages have been banned by the EU haven't they?

Oh no, sorry, forgive me - it's that villages with no idiots are banned because they no longer qualify for the status.

It's a bit like that Valley argument on another thread a while back. EU policy - a valley ain't a valley unless it has a name.

by mikey_dragon Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:05 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The poorer regions in Wales certainly don't see any of this money? Taxes from England and Wales seem to be going outside the UK, rather than inside it. I think most Brexiters know we also need a change in government (for the love of god labour just elect a good leader) but to be fair to Cameron he has listened to what the populous wanted; he took all of the proposals to EU (where he has to get his permission to spend lunch money ffs) only to have them rejected by Brussels and Merkel. Might this government operate differently outside of the EU?

RDA. Google it.

Top result = http://www.rda.org.uk/ - ummmm.....

Regional Development Aid, try again.

And CAP, whilst you're at it, unless you're going to claim a land synonymous with sheep farming actually has no farming industry....

I seen it a but further down the list. I was trying to be funny - class idea this rda though, I think I'll donate.

Not claiming anything of the sort. Funny your view is at odds with the farmers here who will be voting out.

Then the farmers are idiots. Possibly the stupidest thing a farmer could ever do given that the EU bails out their failing industry every year.

Unless they're taking a massive punt on, funnily enough, LEAVE's BS £350m claim still being proportionately spent on farming subsidies.

They're born and raised in agriculture, and you think you know what's best for them? Take a day off...

There seems to be more uncertainty than there is inners and outers in the agricultural industry. I also had a quick read of this, which actually left me with more questions than answers: https://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/your-letters-on-the-eu-referendum-debate.htm - if they themselves are this uncertain there's no way a non-farmer could be so certain.

So more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact) and the Farmers Union (for this reason) backs remain......but I'm expected to believe you/the farmers you are talking about have a fooking scoobies what they're doing/talking about in wanting to LEAVE??

Where did you get this information from? I'm hoping you'll provide me with a source that can provide certainty, much unlike the last guy. Doesn't a lot more EU bail-out money go to countries elsewhere? Surely I don't need to point out which countries...
You didn't read the link then. Shame, it could have provided you with their perspective on the matter, the ones of both sides of the fence. No I'm not a farmer and my reasons for backing leave have nothing to do with agriculture. And yes I do believe that any farmer knows what is best for them, not some random remainer on the net!

Why is everyone else always doig the running around for you ref sources for well known things??

CAP making up the bulk of the EU buget spend as been one of the biggest grumbles ref the EU for 30 years!! It was the reason for Thatcher negotiating our rebate.

And I'm not talking as a random remainer. I'm saying the same of the national farmers union FFS. And stating the bleeding obvious. But yes, of course, stupidity can never be acknowledged as a reason/excuse.

Butty, like try and keep up with this. It wasn't me who brought agriculture into it, it was you and others. You're non-farmer who made a claim about what farmers want, get and need and said it was fact; you also said "more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact)". Shouldn't you back it up with irrefutable sources if this a fact? I've even given you a link from the farmers themselves which insinuates a degree of uncertainty among the pro's and con's of the FARMERS voting whether to remain or leave. I don't know that much about it personally and never claimed to, hence why I'm interested in knowing where your information comes from - so yeah a link to what you're claiming as fact would be good for us both. FYI - When I said that some farmers were voting out I was thinking back to the BBC news programme I had previously watched. I don't remember a date or time so don't ask for a source specifically on this. You're already aware that some want to vote leave anyway.

My first comment on this article from today is the basis for this discussion it seems. I hadn't considered agriculture. If you follow where it went with other posters you'll see I wasn't talking about agriculture, but more my experiences. My city, and Swansea for that matter, simply isn't getting this supposed EU money and both have been on their knees in the last 10 years. The less said about the poorer areas around there the better.

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:07 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

Except Brexiteers are not idiots:

a) They have the superior arguments (one reason for why a substantial Remain lead is now a narrow Leave one)
b) They're winning the vast majority of debates (another reason for why a substantial Remain lead is now a narrow Leave one)
c) They have a long-term view, not a short-term outlook.

by Guest Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:07 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

While the 'Remains' are making themselves look like tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

That was just for a bit of balance. Both sides look pretty dim, although the class clowns are in the Remain camp.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:10 pm

Duty281 wrote:Back on topic, another swing to Leave:

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 40% (-1)
Leave: 47% (+4)
(via TNS, online)

Mrs fES works for TNS. I'll tell you in the morning why this poll should be ignored!

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:12 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The poorer regions in Wales certainly don't see any of this money? Taxes from England and Wales seem to be going outside the UK, rather than inside it. I think most Brexiters know we also need a change in government (for the love of god labour just elect a good leader) but to be fair to Cameron he has listened to what the populous wanted; he took all of the proposals to EU (where he has to get his permission to spend lunch money ffs) only to have them rejected by Brussels and Merkel. Might this government operate differently outside of the EU?

RDA. Google it.

Top result = http://www.rda.org.uk/ - ummmm.....

Regional Development Aid, try again.

And CAP, whilst you're at it, unless you're going to claim a land synonymous with sheep farming actually has no farming industry....

I seen it a but further down the list. I was trying to be funny - class idea this rda though, I think I'll donate.

Not claiming anything of the sort. Funny your view is at odds with the farmers here who will be voting out.

Then the farmers are idiots. Possibly the stupidest thing a farmer could ever do given that the EU bails out their failing industry every year.

Unless they're taking a massive punt on, funnily enough, LEAVE's BS £350m claim still being proportionately spent on farming subsidies.

They're born and raised in agriculture, and you think you know what's best for them? Take a day off...

There seems to be more uncertainty than there is inners and outers in the agricultural industry. I also had a quick read of this, which actually left me with more questions than answers: https://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/your-letters-on-the-eu-referendum-debate.htm - if they themselves are this uncertain there's no way a non-farmer could be so certain.

So more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact) and the Farmers Union (for this reason) backs remain......but I'm expected to believe you/the farmers you are talking about have a fooking scoobies what they're doing/talking about in wanting to LEAVE??

Where did you get this information from? I'm hoping you'll provide me with a source that can provide certainty, much unlike the last guy. Doesn't a lot more EU bail-out money go to countries elsewhere? Surely I don't need to point out which countries...
You didn't read the link then. Shame, it could have provided you with their perspective on the matter, the ones of both sides of the fence. No I'm not a farmer and my reasons for backing leave have nothing to do with agriculture. And yes I do believe that any farmer knows what is best for them, not some random remainer on the net!

Why is everyone else always doig the running around for you ref sources for well known things??

CAP making up the bulk of the EU buget spend as been one of the biggest grumbles ref the EU for 30 years!! It was the reason for Thatcher negotiating our rebate.

And I'm not talking as a random remainer. I'm saying the same of the national farmers union FFS. And stating the bleeding obvious. But yes, of course, stupidity can never be acknowledged as a reason/excuse.

Butty, like try and keep up with this. It wasn't me who brought agriculture into it, it was you and others. You're non-farmer who made a claim about what farmers want, get and need and said it was fact; you also said "more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact)". Shouldn't you back it up with irrefutable sources if this a fact? I've even given you a link from the farmers themselves which insinuates a degree of uncertainty among the pro's and con's of the FARMERS voting whether to remain or leave. I don't know that much about it personally and never claimed to, hence why I'm interested in knowing where your information comes from - so yeah a link to what you're claiming as fact would be good for us both. FYI - When I said that some farmers were voting out I was thinking back to the BBC news programme I had previously watched. I don't remember a date or time so don't ask for a source specifically on this. You're already aware that some want to vote leave anyway.

My first comment on this article from today is the basis for this discussion it seems. I hadn't considered agriculture. If you follow where it went with other posters you'll see I wasn't talking about agriculture, but more my experiences. My city, and Swansea for that matter, simply isn't getting this supposed EU money and both have been on their knees in the last 10 years. The less said about the poorer areas around there the better.

You said Wales gets no benefit from the EU. I queried whether your ignorance of RDA (Wales being a major benefactor) extended to an even more astonishing ignorance of either CAP or Wales even having a farming industry.

To which you respond "Yeah, but I know some farmers voting leave". I said they were probably not the brightest to be voting against the advice of their national union and staggered they didn't realise the EU PAID them for their rubbishness.

Then we went round in circles of you not understanding much at all and asking everyone to prove the bits you didn't know/understand.

Again, if you don't have a scoobies about something as major as CAP which has been a stick in Brexiteers craws for decades prior to them becoming a buzzword then YOU go out and do the damn research. This is an internet forum, not a night school for topping up your education.

by SecretFly Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:13 pm

funnyExiledScot wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Back on topic, another swing to Leave:

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 40% (-1)
Leave: 47% (+4)
(via TNS, online)

Mrs fES works for TNS. I'll tell you in the morning why this poll should be ignored!

...too many villages included in the poll?

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:15 pm

Duty281 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

Except Brexiteers are not idiots:

a) They have the superior arguments (one reason for why a substantial Remain lead is now a narrow Leave one) No. They don't. Every argument has been hopelessly exposed. Poll leads are more to do with appealing to the lowest common denomiator.
b) They're winning the vast majority of debates (another reason for why a substantial Remain lead is now a narrow Leave one) Winning because they speak simple to simple people.
c) They have a long-term view, not a short-term outlook.True. Because short term is a disaster so they HAVE to avoid it. I agree, that is indeed smart.

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:16 pm

Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

While the 'Remains' are making themselves look like tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

That was just for a bit of balance. Both sides look pretty dim, although the class clowns are in the Remain camp.

Eh? If anything LEAVE are the conspiracy theorists - their entire campaign is built on conspriacy theory!!

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:17 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Duty281 wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

Except Brexiteers are not idiots:

a) They have the superior arguments (one reason for why a substantial Remain lead is now a narrow Leave one) No. They don't. Every argument has been hopelessly exposed. Poll leads are more to do with appealing to the lowest common denomiator.
b) They're winning the vast majority of debates (another reason for why a substantial Remain lead is now a narrow Leave one) Winning because they speak simple to simple people.
c) They have a long-term view, not a short-term outlook.
True. Because short term is a disaster so they HAVE to avoid it. I agree, that is indeed smart.

Yep we're winning, despite all the nastiness that people like you bring.

Yahoo

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:21 pm

Did you expect me to question that LEAVE are producing the most consistent current poll leads??

by Guest Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:21 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

While the 'Remains' are making themselves look like tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

That was just for a bit of balance. Both sides look pretty dim, although the class clowns are in the Remain camp.

Eh? If anything LEAVE are the conspiracy theorists - their entire campaign is built on conspriacy theory!!

ah, so you're another who is unable, or unwilling, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

So, when do you think WW3 is going to kick off? Just that I would like to stock up my bunker with enough tinned beans before people start pressing buttons.

by TopHat24/7 Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:26 pm

Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

While the 'Remains' are making themselves look like tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

That was just for a bit of balance. Both sides look pretty dim, although the class clowns are in the Remain camp.

Eh? If anything LEAVE are the conspiracy theorists - their entire campaign is built on conspriacy theory!!

ah, so you're another who is unable, or unwilling, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

So, when do you think WW3 is going to kick off? Just that I would like to stock up my bunker with enough tinned beans before people start pressing buttons.

This is getting more confusing by the minute.....

LEAVE is based on a "everyone in the EU hates us and is against us and will try to do everything they can to scew us EXCEPT if we leave then they'll love us for our trade and welcome us back (economically) with open arms" conspiracy theory. Things like EU armies, migrant sex attacks, repeats of Orlando, Poish people stealing LITERALLY EVERYONE'S jobs etc etc

by **ShahenshahG** Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:26 pm

Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

While the 'Remains' are making themselves look like tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

That was just for a bit of balance. Both sides look pretty dim, although the class clowns are in the Remain camp.

Eh? If anything LEAVE are the conspiracy theorists - their entire campaign is built on conspriacy theory!!

ah, so you're another who is unable, or unwilling, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

So, when do you think WW3 is going to kick off? Just that I would like to stock up my bunker with enough tinned beans before people start pressing buttons.

Where exactly did he say that ww3 is going to kick off you complete cretin? Is it too difficult for you to distinguish between the argument in hand and the position of the leaders?

by SecretFly Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:34 pm

Trump has said he plans to press the button 3rd June 2018.

So we've all got time to let our hair down and enjoy ourselves.

by SecretFly Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:37 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:

LEAVE is based on a "everyone in the EU hates us and is against us and will try to do everything they can to scew us EXCEPT if we leave then they'll love us for our trade and welcome us back (economically) with open arms" conspiracy theory.

Another name for it is 'greed'. Greed is irresistible. You know, like the gangster families? - hate each other but still do biz with each other.

by mikey_dragon Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:39 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
mikey_dragon wrote:The poorer regions in Wales certainly don't see any of this money? Taxes from England and Wales seem to be going outside the UK, rather than inside it. I think most Brexiters know we also need a change in government (for the love of god labour just elect a good leader) but to be fair to Cameron he has listened to what the populous wanted; he took all of the proposals to EU (where he has to get his permission to spend lunch money ffs) only to have them rejected by Brussels and Merkel. Might this government operate differently outside of the EU?

RDA. Google it.

Top result = http://www.rda.org.uk/ - ummmm.....

Regional Development Aid, try again.

And CAP, whilst you're at it, unless you're going to claim a land synonymous with sheep farming actually has no farming industry....

I seen it a but further down the list. I was trying to be funny - class idea this rda though, I think I'll donate.

Not claiming anything of the sort. Funny your view is at odds with the farmers here who will be voting out.

Then the farmers are idiots. Possibly the stupidest thing a farmer could ever do given that the EU bails out their failing industry every year.

Unless they're taking a massive punt on, funnily enough, LEAVE's BS £350m claim still being proportionately spent on farming subsidies.

They're born and raised in agriculture, and you think you know what's best for them? Take a day off...

There seems to be more uncertainty than there is inners and outers in the agricultural industry. I also had a quick read of this, which actually left me with more questions than answers: https://www.fwi.co.uk/farm-life/your-letters-on-the-eu-referendum-debate.htm - if they themselves are this uncertain there's no way a non-farmer could be so certain.

So more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact) and the Farmers Union (for this reason) backs remain......but I'm expected to believe you/the farmers you are talking about have a fooking scoobies what they're doing/talking about in wanting to LEAVE??

Where did you get this information from? I'm hoping you'll provide me with a source that can provide certainty, much unlike the last guy. Doesn't a lot more EU bail-out money go to countries elsewhere? Surely I don't need to point out which countries...
You didn't read the link then. Shame, it could have provided you with their perspective on the matter, the ones of both sides of the fence. No I'm not a farmer and my reasons for backing leave have nothing to do with agriculture. And yes I do believe that any farmer knows what is best for them, not some random remainer on the net!

Why is everyone else always doig the running around for you ref sources for well known things??

CAP making up the bulk of the EU buget spend as been one of the biggest grumbles ref the EU for 30 years!! It was the reason for Thatcher negotiating our rebate.

And I'm not talking as a random remainer. I'm saying the same of the national farmers union FFS. And stating the bleeding obvious. But yes, of course, stupidity can never be acknowledged as a reason/excuse.

Butty, like try and keep up with this. It wasn't me who brought agriculture into it, it was you and others. You're non-farmer who made a claim about what farmers want, get and need and said it was fact; you also said "more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU (this is a fact)". Shouldn't you back it up with irrefutable sources if this a fact? I've even given you a link from the farmers themselves which insinuates a degree of uncertainty among the pro's and con's of the FARMERS voting whether to remain or leave. I don't know that much about it personally and never claimed to, hence why I'm interested in knowing where your information comes from - so yeah a link to what you're claiming as fact would be good for us both. FYI - When I said that some farmers were voting out I was thinking back to the BBC news programme I had previously watched. I don't remember a date or time so don't ask for a source specifically on this. You're already aware that some want to vote leave anyway.

My first comment on this article from today is the basis for this discussion it seems. I hadn't considered agriculture. If you follow where it went with other posters you'll see I wasn't talking about agriculture, but more my experiences. My city, and Swansea for that matter, simply isn't getting this supposed EU money and both have been on their knees in the last 10 years. The less said about the poorer areas around there the better.

You said Wales gets no benefit from the EU. I queried whether your ignorance of RDA (Wales being a major benefactor) extended to an even more astonishing ignorance of either CAP or Wales even having a farming industry.

To which you respond "Yeah, but I know some farmers voting leave". I said they were probably not the brightest to be voting against the advice of their national union and staggered they didn't realise the EU PAID them for their rubbishness.

Then we went round in circles of you not understanding much at all and asking everyone to prove the bits you didn't know/understand.

Again, if you don't have a scoobies about something as major as CAP which has been a stick in Brexiteers craws for decades prior to them becoming a buzzword then YOU go out and do the damn research. This is an internet forum, not a night school for topping up your education.

I said from experience, and I've stated time and time again the reasons why. I've stated where Wales didn't get the EU money when it was needed, hence me wondering it was even true in the first place. Thus I still believe we aren't benefitting that much from the EU. A source I was provided with stated that it believed that Wales got more money than it puts into the EU but not in certain terms as it was difficult to distinguish among different reigons, but one thing that it could factually say was that the UK as a whole gets less. I can see that welsh farmers may benefit from the EU, and I can also see from what I've read from the FARMERS, who know more about it than both of us, the benefits to them of being outside of the EU - you can't seem to get with this. Also Wales isn't just stretch of land with farms you know? Focus is seemingly being frequently shifted to the farms!

https://fullfact.org/europe/wales-getting-best-deal-out-eu/ - the counter-argument to my first comment that I was provided with in case you missed it, however:

No official figure exists for the overall investment that Wales receives from the EU, since funding is calculated on a UK-basis and Wales benefits from a number of multinational programmes which are difficult to quantify by country.

And

Still, the true figure could be outside this range since there's no exhaustive list available of the funding that Wales receives from the EU...

But measuring the relative financial costs and benefits of the EU to Wales is still subject to estimations and assumptions on both sides. It's difficult, for instance, to assign funding precisely at a regional level. Asking whether Wales is a net beneficiary from Europe as a general question which extends beyond financial gains can't be answered well from these estimates alone.

Now stop expanding onto other things. Can you back up your claims that more money is spent bailing out national farming industries than ANYTHING ELSE in the EU? Are you referring to farming industries in Wales, or the UK, or Europe? Is more bail-out money like I suspect being sent to other countries in the EU, ones that are on their knees with high unemployment levels and a painfully low minimum wage? I suspect you're all avoiding this because you have highly suspect data. If EU money does keep propping up the agricultural industry in Wales then good. Is it going to make me change my vote? No. Does/has EU money ever benefitted the impoverished areas in Wales? The two I alluded to, no, and probably not places like Merthyr and countless others either.

by funnyExiledScot Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:
funnyExiledScot wrote:
Duty281 wrote:Back on topic, another swing to Leave:

EU referendum poll:
Remain: 40% (-1)
Leave: 47% (+4)
(via TNS, online)

Mrs fES works for TNS. I'll tell you in the morning why this poll should be ignored!

...too many villages included in the poll?

Nope. Mrs fES isn't a big fan of online polling, and I'll be due a lecture over dinner as to why they are unreliable. I'll relay the highlights later if I'm still awake.

Still, whilst I'd dispute the size of the Leave lead shown in the TNS poll above, I'm not going to deny the almost universal polling trend across all varieties of polling methodology. For reasons that entirely escape me, Leave have the momentum.

I've been thinking about what I'd do were I advising the Remain campaign. They've shown that we'd be worse off economically, at least in the short/medium term, and that doesn't appear to sway voters. Either they don't believe the Remain camp, or they don't care. They have highlighted the benefits of immigration to counter the negatives, and still undecided and Leave voters appear unmoved. They have arranged a whole plethora of experts and powerbrokers from across the globe to assure voters that Remain is the sensible choice, and again voters don't seem to care.

For what it's worth I still think the key to this for Remain is the economy. The Leave campaign's only response to this is to shout "scaremongering", and they have taken every opportunity during debates to avoid the subject in order to move to immigration. It's their Achilles heal. Remain need to get this back on the agenda somehow - but with the Red Tops going with Leave it's going to be hard to communicate the message in a simple manner to the key demographic that need to hear the message and, with that demographic, simplicity is key. I don't mean to say that in a patronising way, but it's true. The sort of message delivered by The Sun banner headline is the level of detail we're competing against, and having leading economics writing two page essays describing the economic shock the UK will suffer is just a waste of time at this stage. You're just preaching to converted.

by Duty281 Tue Jun 14, 2016 6:59 pm

Except our economy does not benefit from being in the EU.

This country had the 4th largest economy in the world in 1960 - this similar level has always been achieved with or without the EU. Our trade has certainly been harmed by being in the EU - no free trade with the USA, Canada or India, to name just a few.

Open Europe - the only truly independent economic organisation - get it right when they say that Leaving will make a negligible difference to our economy. The ones in the pocket of the EU, with dodgy track records - like the CBI or the IMF - will always pretend otherwise.

There are no benefits to being in the EU which Greece - once home to the greatest civilisation that our species has ever known - have found out to a devastating degree.

by **JuliusHMarx** Tue Jun 14, 2016 7:20 pm

mikey_dragon wrote:.....Does/has EU money ever benefitted the impoverished areas in Wales? The two I alluded to, no, and probably not places like Merthyr and countless others either.

Out of curiosity, I googled merthyr tydfil eu money and the first result was this - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/politics/asked-people-south-wales-valleys-11157022
"Town centre regeneration programmes in Aberdare, Ebbw Vale and Merthyr are among the things that have benefited" from EU money.

by Guest Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:38 pm

TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

While the 'Remains' are making themselves look like tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

That was just for a bit of balance. Both sides look pretty dim, although the class clowns are in the Remain camp.

Eh? If anything LEAVE are the conspiracy theorists - their entire campaign is built on conspriacy theory!!

ah, so you're another who is unable, or unwilling, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

So, when do you think WW3 is going to kick off? Just that I would like to stock up my bunker with enough tinned beans before people start pressing buttons.

This is getting more confusing by the minute.....

LEAVE is based on a "everyone in the EU hates us and is against us and will try to do everything they can to scew us EXCEPT if we leave then they'll love us for our trade and welcome us back (economically) with open arms" conspiracy theory. Things like EU armies, migrant sex attacks, repeats of Orlando, Poish people stealing LITERALLY EVERYONE'S jobs etc etc

That's one side of it. There are two sides, and both sides are behaving irresponsibly. That's my point. For something as important to everyone in the UK there needs to be responsible leadership detailing clearly the pros and cons for both sides. Not the hyperbolic drivel which attempts to play on the fears of the electorate and which appears to be counterproductive to the Remain campaign. Give the people clearly defined positive reasons as to why they should vote 'Remain' instead of playing on their fears and trying to bully their will into subjection. Neither is it helpful to hurl insults on those championing for Brexit. That's not really going to encourage those thinking of voting Brexit to change sides.

All the shouting, the bitching, the insulting on this thread is not going to win hearts for any side.

by Guest Tue Jun 14, 2016 8:55 pm

The Sandal Bomber wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
Munchkin wrote:
TopHat24/7 wrote:
LordDowlais wrote:What is it with you guys who want to remain ?

Why is it that you just resort to insults and belittling people ?

Just because people want to leave the EU it does not make them village idiots all of a sudden. Every debate I have watched and listened to on this subject always descends into the the remain campaign taking the p1ss out of whoever is debating for the leave campaign. But I guess that's what happens when you start losing a debate.

There has been NOTHING from the remain campaign to convince me we will be better off staying in the EU, but the people who are championing a brexit speak with passion and they believe what they are saying.

I have looked at the pro's and cons. I will be a lot better off out of the EU, my mind is made up, and I am excited by the prospect of being in a position where I have an influence on things that happen in MY country.

Have you taken the advice provided yet and sorted out the bills which are costing your business money whilst your Local Authority fobs you off with false EU claims??

Oh, and to answer your first question, it's not our fault that Brexiteers makes themselves look like 'village idiots'. Quickest route to not be spoken to like an idiot, is not speaking like an idiot. Just a wee tip there for you. Though I suspect it will be ignored, like the advice provided, ignorance costing you thousands even before you'v voted LEAVE.

While the 'Remains' are making themselves look like tin hatted conspiracy theorists.

That was just for a bit of balance. Both sides look pretty dim, although the class clowns are in the Remain camp.

Eh? If anything LEAVE are the conspiracy theorists - their entire campaign is built on conspriacy theory!!

ah, so you're another who is unable, or unwilling, to separate the wheat from the chaff.

So, when do you think WW3 is going to kick off? Just that I would like to stock up my bunker with enough tinned beans before people start pressing buttons.

Where exactly did he say that ww3 is going to kick off you complete cretin? Is it too difficult for you to distinguish between the argument in hand and the position of the leaders?

The problem with the debate is that it is being lead by cretins such as yourself. It's all bitching, fearmongering, hyperbole and insulting. Not much evidence of reasoning.

In answer to your question; Cameron never actually stated "WW3". He did say this:

“Can we be so sure peace and stability on our continent are assured beyond any shadow of doubt? Is that a risk worth taking?,” he said. “I would never be so rash to make that assumption.”

“pivotal moments in European history: Blenheim, Trafalgar, Waterloo, our country’s heroism in the Great War and, most of all, our lone stand in 1940”.

“What happens in our neighbourhood matters to Britain. That was true in 1914, 1940, 1989…. and it is true in 2016.”

The implication is clear. In a worse case scenario, the UK leaving Europe could lead to a 1914 or a 1940. Emotional blackmail.

Now, just to let you know, I'm for Remain, even if borderline. What I find disheartening is the lack of leadership in the Remain campaign, and the extremely poor quality of debate. Pretty much a mirror image of what's being served up on this thread.

by Volcanicash Tue Jun 14, 2016 9:21 pm

Rowley wrote:It does seem a bit have your cake and eat it when it comes to the leave campaign. Dyson and the JCB come out in support and they're only too happy to quote them. Governor of the Bank of England and countless others say it's folly and we say well they've got stuff wrong before. Does come across as only listening to the business experts who sat what you want to hear.

There is not a complete consensus amongst experts but you have to either listen to them all or none. Not listening to any experts on the subject seems misguided, so surely the fairest thing to do is go with the majority and even the leavers must surely acknowledge the majority of experts in the field consider remaining the better course of action.

Very possibly true if your someone who looks at political issues for 5 seconds while waiting for the next episode of Xfactor,(I don't mean you by the way) but for others who take the time to time to listen to the arguments of both sides they will tend to go with the one they believe has the stronger arguments. Economics is not my no. 1 issue however I feel confident that with the likes of JCB, Dyson, 300 plus business leaders and former heads of the bank of England and the cbi, I think we’ll be ok.

And in fairness if there was no economists on the leave side the remains would milk it for all its worth. And my personal view is if we have to take a hit, (which I believe could happen, I’m pragmatic) so be it. Democracy isn’t to be bargained with.

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