The EU Referendum - Thursday 23 June (with voting poll)

First topic message reminder :

Hopefully it will stop the arguments about Gib and we can tell Spain to pee off

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:CAP was set up before LIDL & ALDI etc existed.

Next?

So was the UK...before both.

Explain why subsidies are needed....you'll find the reason when you tot up your grocery list next time.

Doubt it.  I shop at Waitrose....

Of course..................... never doubted it. Aldi/Lidl surplus sold on for a profit

Also that link reports 4% of nhs staff are Euro migrants, that's 1/25 members of staff or approx 48,000. They also couldn't find nationality info about 11% of staff.

The nhs will survive, it's gone through worse - however it is very perilously placed at the moment with many challenges. Do we need to effect ability to recruit staff, alienate current staff and risk future funding purely because extra money (how much is disputed) has been offered to it now, along with numerous other groups?

funnyExiledScot wrote:

The Sandal Bomber wrote:Fes. Could I have that link please? In particular those workers rights that are expected to be scrapped in the event of Brexit.

Sure. The article that Hero has posted is the FT article, but I was referring to the Open Europe paper endorsed by Duty (you can reach the full report by PDF at the link below):

http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/

It's actually a pretty honest and frank report, and I'm not questioning the integrity of the numbers (am in no position to do so). It's basically saying that if you significantly de-regulate you can forecast just about enough gains to offset the losses caused by Brexit. Of course you have to be comfortable with the proposed deregulation in order to endorse this position.

The losses can only be offset if the changes required to bring about those gains are actually made. Can't imagine many political parties (even a right wing thunderb*astard version of the Tory party led by Johnson and Gove campaigning on the basis that they are going to scrap redundancy pay). So the gains are theoretical and have very little change of ever coming into existence.

SecretFly wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:CAP was set up before LIDL & ALDI etc existed.

Next?

So was the UK...before both.

Explain why subsidies are needed....you'll find the reason when you tot up your grocery list next time.

Doubt it.  I shop at Waitrose....

Of course..................... never doubted it.  Aldi/Lidl surplus sold on for a profit

That's Capitalism in a nutshell...posh tw*ts buying Aldi's leftovers at three times the price and feeling smug about it for some reason.

The Sandal Bomber wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

The Sandal Bomber wrote:Fes. Could I have that link please? In particular those workers rights that are expected to be scrapped in the event of Brexit.

Sure. The article that Hero has posted is the FT article, but I was referring to the Open Europe paper endorsed by Duty (you can reach the full report by PDF at the link below):

http://openeurope.org.uk/intelligence/britain-and-the-eu/what-if-there-were-a-brexit/

It's actually a pretty honest and frank report, and I'm not questioning the integrity of the numbers (am in no position to do so). It's basically saying that if you significantly de-regulate you can forecast just about enough gains to offset the losses caused by Brexit. Of course you have to be comfortable with the proposed deregulation in order to endorse this position.

Thank you I'll read that tonight at work. Has anyone from the leave camp actually endorsed this yet?

No idea, don't think Duty is officially part of Leave! I stated that Brexit would be bad for the economy, the majority view, and he referenced the Open Europe paper as a rebuttal. It's not a bad paper, but for those who accuse Labour of scaremongering when they suggest that workers' rights will be eroded if we Leave, it demonstrates they this will very much be on the cards to balance the books.

Yes it does. So in effect we can balance the books by doing things we probably won't be able to do. That clears that up then. Thank you duty. You're a true patriot.

Which political figures have stated they will remove workers' rights if the UK leave?

Couple of things:

1) What time do the announcements start to filter in? By that I mean which consituencies have voted for what.. i.e. 97% remain 3% leave? Annoyingly we haven't got a BREXIT exit poll, although I believe some of those dastardly city boys are privately employing people of their own so they can get ahead of the curve regarding buying/selling £ depending which way the vote goes.

2) I will literally streak down Oxford St naked if the pollsters have made a huge cockup...

Imagine the scene, little Duty has his cans of Fanta, crisps and other snacks all laid out by mummy for the long night ahead. He has his UKIP PJs on and his Farage buttplug firmly inserted, ready for the excitement of the results drip feeding out. Over the course of the early hours though there are murmerings and then press releases that remain is at 55-45 in the lead... then it stretches to 60-40 and then 65-35. Little Duty throws his final packet of Disco crisps against the wall and stomps upstairs. Later on he gets a text from a friend if he fancies going to the shop to buy sweets and has to say no as he spent 3 months worth of pay up to blow it on betting leave the silly little boy!

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/eureferendum/11732668/david-cameron-working-time-directive-eu-referendum.html

Here's the current spread of doctors working in the UK based upon where they qualified, this was last updated in April.

PMQ country	No. of doctors	%
United Kingdom	173,275	63.3%
India	25,055	9.2%
Pakistan	10,295	3.8%
South Africa	5,137	1.9%
Nigeria	4,425	1.6%
Ireland	4,153	1.5%
Italy	3,706	1.4%
Greece	3,683	1.3%
Egypt	3,489	1.3%
Germany	3,189	1.2%
Sri Lanka	2,473	0.9%
Romania	2,463	0.9%
Iraq	2,406	0.9%
Poland	2,164	0.8%
Australia	2,003	0.7%
Sudan	1,748	0.6%
Spain	1,703	0.6%
Hungary	1,510	0.6%
Czech Republic	1,269	0.5%
Bulgaria	995	0.4%
Total	255,141	93.4%

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:Which political figures have stated they will remove workers' rights if the UK leave?

Cameron?

If the UK leaves the EU, it not clear that there will be a bonfire of employment legislation. Much would depend on the UK’s subsequent relationship with the EU, which would need to be negotiated. If the UK became part of the European Economic Area, it might continue to be bound by EU Directives covering employment and social issues.

Even if Brexit left the UK free to dismantle employment rights, a Conservative government wishing to be re-elected might see little political advantage in removing rights to parental leave or allowing employers to discriminate against people because of their religion or sexual orientation. It is highly likely, however, that the EU’s working-time regulations, which is a particular bug-bear for the Conservative Party, and the regulations for agency workers would be amended or repealed.

It is also conceivable that rights relating to transferred staff and the right to information and consultation when changes are made to your job would be weakened. Were the Conservative Party to remain in power and shift further to the right, however, there would be little to prevent a far more substantial attack on employment rights.

Workers have gained much from the UK’s membership of the EU and there are clear benefits to society from limiting working time, outlawing discrimination and providing entitlements to parental leave. Many of those who wish to end EU influence over UK employment legislation have one aim in mind – to take employment rights away from workers. If the UK leaves the EU, they are likely to have their way.

TopHat24/7 wrote:pathetic

What's pathetic is you ignoring what I'm saying, which fully supports my first comment on the matter yesterday morning. I've acknowledged what you said and you couldn't answer my questions.

https://fullfact.org/europe/wales-getting-best-deal-out-eu/

No official figure exists for the overall investment that Wales receives from the EU, since funding is calculated on a UK-basis and Wales benefits from a number of multinational programmes which are difficult to quantify by country.

And

Still, the true figure could be outside this range since there's no exhaustive list available of the funding that Wales receives from the EU...

But measuring the relative financial costs and benefits of the EU to Wales is still subject to estimations and assumptions on both sides. It's difficult, for instance, to assign funding precisely at a regional level. Asking whether Wales is a net beneficiary from Europe as a general question which extends beyond financial gains can't be answered well from these estimates alone.

It was good to be made aware that EU money had benefitted some parts, but not as much as was made out, hence why people living in Wales were asking questions. See the article above and also the following from WOL post from Julius:

But there are claims that all this money (£1.9 billion between 2007 and 2013) has failed to lift communities out of deprivation .

And, it's true, there is still plenty of deprivation to be seen...

This backs up my first comment, it doesn't seem to be benefitting Wales. Stay brigadiers seem to be using the lies I've alluded to here to scare the people of Wales into staying, despite them admitting there is no official figure to show how much more Wales gains than it puts in, it was based on an assumption, and I'll be honest it is likely. However the same source also states as fact the UK as whole receives less than it distributes to the EU.

Right your source: https://fullfact.org/europe/does-eu-spend-40-its-budget-farm-subsidies/ - thanks for that, it wasn't difficult was it? I'll answer my own questions I asked you then. So this includes tobacco and cotton (which I very was unaware of) - you're still surprised that a large chunk of the EU budget goes to agriculture? Throughout Europe might I add, not just Wales which is what had been alluded to.
I've acknowledged your points on agriculture, despite being unsure why my original comments kept being dragged onto that. Can you acknowledge what I'm saying? I backed it up with sources from the sources I was given by remainers.

TopHat24/7 wrote:No other single compenent of EU spending accounts for a slug in excess of 40%. If you think different, YOU do the f*cking research next time.

Although there is no official figure to state this I still suspect that agriculture in Wales receives far less bailout money than goes to Greece and other EU countries - and at least you get some GDP from agriculture!

http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/432765/EU-demands-6billion-from-Britain-for-new-bailout

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2015/jun/29/where-did-the-greek-bailout-money-go

Hero wrote:I work for a company that provide these tests for overseas doctors, they're about as rigorous a test as being able to pat your head and rub your tummy.

You literally know zilch about it. Typical Remain brigadier.

Hero wrote:And combined with the current issues between the BMA and Jeremy Hunt then the removal of the ETD will see British trained doctors leaving the UK in unprecedented numbers.

The article states that British trained doctors leave anyway, there's a continuous flow of this.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:You're about as balanced as Johnny Vegas and Kate Moss on a see-saw.

Ah, but it wasn't always this way, my darling. It's not like supporting a football team, where blind loyalty must take precedent.

I've known for years - 5 of them now - that the EU does us far more harm than good, and I'm delighted we've got a referendum, and I'm ecstatic that we're going to win. And, in the process, such a result will free our friends on the continent in due course.

GCSE politics?

A-Level Law (makes it 4 and a half years ago, in truth)

Coxy001 wrote:Couple of things:

1) What time do the announcements start to filter in? By that I mean which consituencies have voted for what.. i.e. 97% remain 3% leave? Annoyingly we haven't got a BREXIT exit poll, although I believe some of those dastardly city boys are privately employing people of their own so they can get ahead of the curve regarding buying/selling £ depending which way the vote goes.

2) I will literally streak down Oxford St naked if the pollsters have made a huge cockup...

Imagine the scene, little Duty has his cans of Fanta, crisps and other snacks all laid out by mummy for the long night ahead. He has his UKIP PJs on and his Farage buttplug firmly inserted, ready for the excitement of the results drip feeding out. Over the course of the early hours though there are murmerings and then press releases that remain is at 55-45 in the lead... then it stretches to 60-40 and then 65-35. Little Duty throws his final packet of Disco crisps against the wall and stomps upstairs. Later on he gets a text from a friend if he fancies going to the shop to buy sweets and has to say no as he spent 3 months worth of pay up to blow it on betting leave the silly little boy!

Counts are done by local areas (I'm going to mine, so no cans of Fanta for me), then sent to regional places. No idea how they will be announced/what order.

Duty281 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:You're about as balanced as Johnny Vegas and Kate Moss on a see-saw.

Ah, but it wasn't always this way, my darling. It's not like supporting a football team, where blind loyalty must take precedent.

I've known for years - 5 of them now - that the EU does us far more harm than good, and I'm delighted we've got a referendum, and I'm ecstatic that we're going to win. And, in the process, such a result will free our friends on the continent in due course.

GCSE politics?

A-Level Law (makes it 4 and a half years ago, in truth)

I see your A Level law, and I raise you a law degree, LPC and 10 years PQE

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hero wrote:I work for a company that provide these tests for overseas doctors, they're about as rigorous a test as being able to pat your head and rub your tummy.

You literally know zilch about it. Typical Remain brigadier.

Hero wrote:And combined with the current issues between the BMA and Jeremy Hunt then the removal of the ETD will see British trained doctors leaving the UK in unprecedented numbers.

The article states that British trained doctors leave anyway, there's a continuous flow of this.

I've actually worked 10 years for one of the few companies in the UK that provides dedicated training for overseas doctors, so I'd hope I know a teensy bit more than zilch. The PLAB exam is the current format of exam for overseas doctors, currently the GMC are looking to overhaul it by 2019 due to it not being rigorous enough.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:You're about as balanced as Johnny Vegas and Kate Moss on a see-saw.

Ah, but it wasn't always this way, my darling. It's not like supporting a football team, where blind loyalty must take precedent.

I've known for years - 5 of them now - that the EU does us far more harm than good, and I'm delighted we've got a referendum, and I'm ecstatic that we're going to win. And, in the process, such a result will free our friends on the continent in due course.

GCSE politics?

Got a D in it in all probability. Nothing above a C would explain why he spent years unemployed.

Just wondering how he'd handle remain pulling through and winning... Followed on by Farage resigning from UKIP and the party drifting away in to the wilderness. Mental breakdown beckons.

Well I think being £1000 down would probably be the first concern, unless he takes my advice and invests in a disappointment hedge next week!

I actually did study Politics at A Level. Very interesting and enjoyable but definitely in the camp of "easy" A Levels when compared to what Gove would call "proper subjects".

£2,000 - not £1,000!

Duty281 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:You're about as balanced as Johnny Vegas and Kate Moss on a see-saw.

Ah, but it wasn't always this way, my darling. It's not like supporting a football team, where blind loyalty must take precedent.

I've known for years - 5 of them now - that the EU does us far more harm than good, and I'm delighted we've got a referendum, and I'm ecstatic that we're going to win. And, in the process, such a result will free our friends on the continent in due course.

GCSE politics?

Got a D in it in all probability. Nothing above a C would explain why he spent years unemployed.

Just wondering how he'd handle remain pulling through and winning... Followed on by Farage resigning from UKIP and the party drifting away in to the wilderness. Mental breakdown beckons.

Well I think being £1000 down would probably be the first concern, unless he takes my advice and invests in a disappointment hedge next week!

I actually did study Politics at A Level. Very interesting and enjoyable but definitely in the camp of "easy" A Levels when compared to what Gove would call "proper subjects".

£2,000 - not £1,000!

Well in the context of numerical accuracy in this referendum, what's the difference??

Duty281 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:You're about as balanced as Johnny Vegas and Kate Moss on a see-saw.

Ah, but it wasn't always this way, my darling. It's not like supporting a football team, where blind loyalty must take precedent.

I've known for years - 5 of them now - that the EU does us far more harm than good, and I'm delighted we've got a referendum, and I'm ecstatic that we're going to win. And, in the process, such a result will free our friends on the continent in due course.

GCSE politics?

A-Level Law (makes it 4 and a half years ago, in truth)

Oi - stop laughing at the back.

Hero wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hero wrote:I work for a company that provide these tests for overseas doctors, they're about as rigorous a test as being able to pat your head and rub your tummy.

You literally know zilch about it. Typical Remain brigadier.

Hero wrote:And combined with the current issues between the BMA and Jeremy Hunt then the removal of the ETD will see British trained doctors leaving the UK in unprecedented numbers.

The article states that British trained doctors leave anyway, there's a continuous flow of this.

I've actually worked 10 years for one of the few companies in the UK that provides dedicated training for overseas doctors, so I'd hope I know a teensy bit more than zilch. The PLAB exam is the current format of exam for overseas doctors, currently the GMC are looking to overhaul it by 2019 due to it not being rigorous enough.

Yeah probably a bit more than zilch, but nowhere near enough to know what you're claim, or your claims be relevant to the current staffing and training policies in the NHS.

Oh dear: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

So there's the money Boris is clamouring on about and this:

The ban would save £300million a year, according to medical travel facilitator Medigo, freeing up much needed cash to boost Britain’s desperately overstretched health service.

Vote Leave chairwoman and Labour MP Gisela Stuart said: “The UK has been getting short-changed by the EU for years. We hand over £350million to Brussels every week but get less than half of that back - with strings attached.

"On top of that, health tourism from the EU has cost us billions. This money could have been much better spent - it could have been invested to improve care for NHS patients.

"If we vote Leave we will be able to stop handing over so much money to the EU and we would be able to spend our money on priorities here in the UK like abolishing prescription charges and investing in the NHS."

Research conducted by Medigo broke down the cost of NHS treatment to find Britain was spending £9.3m on Irish health tourists, £4.8m on French and £3.6m Belgian.Another £3million a year was spent treating Spanish residents.

In March figures from the Department of Health revealed Britain was forking out £2billion a year in medical treatment due to health tourism, so the savings may be even higher.

More at: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673724/NHS-Brexit-health-tourism-save-300-million

superflyweight wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Duty281 wrote:

Hero wrote:You're about as balanced as Johnny Vegas and Kate Moss on a see-saw.

Ah, but it wasn't always this way, my darling. It's not like supporting a football team, where blind loyalty must take precedent.

I've known for years - 5 of them now - that the EU does us far more harm than good, and I'm delighted we've got a referendum, and I'm ecstatic that we're going to win. And, in the process, such a result will free our friends on the continent in due course.

GCSE politics?

A-Level Law (makes it 4 and a half years ago, in truth)

Oi - stop laughing at the back.  

Arf arf...

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hero wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hero wrote:I work for a company that provide these tests for overseas doctors, they're about as rigorous a test as being able to pat your head and rub your tummy.

You literally know zilch about it. Typical Remain brigadier.

Hero wrote:And combined with the current issues between the BMA and Jeremy Hunt then the removal of the ETD will see British trained doctors leaving the UK in unprecedented numbers.

The article states that British trained doctors leave anyway, there's a continuous flow of this.

I've actually worked 10 years for one of the few companies in the UK that provides dedicated training for overseas doctors, so I'd hope I know a teensy bit more than zilch. The PLAB exam is the current format of exam for overseas doctors, currently the GMC are looking to overhaul it by 2019 due to it not being rigorous enough.

Yeah probably a bit more than zilch, but nowhere near enough to know what you're claim, or your claims be relevant to the current staffing and training policies in the NHS.

Oh dear: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

So there's the money Boris is clamouring on about and this:

The ban would save £300million a year, according to medical travel facilitator Medigo, freeing up much needed cash to boost Britain’s desperately overstretched health service.

Vote Leave chairwoman and Labour MP Gisela Stuart said: “The UK has been getting short-changed by the EU for years. We hand over £350million to Brussels every week but get less than half of that back - with strings attached.

"On top of that, health tourism from the EU has cost us billions. This money could have been much better spent - it could have been invested to improve care for NHS patients.

"If we vote Leave we will be able to stop handing over so much money to the EU and we would be able to spend our money on priorities here in the UK like abolishing prescription charges and investing in the NHS."

Research conducted by Medigo broke down the cost of NHS treatment to find Britain was spending £9.3m on Irish health tourists, £4.8m on French and £3.6m Belgian.Another £3million a year was spent treating Spanish residents.

In March figures from the Department of Health revealed Britain was forking out £2billion a year in medical treatment due to health tourism, so the savings may be even higher.

More at: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673724/NHS-Brexit-health-tourism-save-300-million

Well I can add the abolishing of prescription charges in England (no charges already in Scotland) to the list of Brexit promises. That's a new one of me, and will cost a fortune.

On the issue of health tourism, here's a peace from Duty's newspaper of choice that better explains these numbers:

http://www.theguardian.com/politics/reality-check/2013/oct/22/health-tourists-costing-nhs-2bn

The way I see it at the moment is as follows:

I have been given a democratic opportunity through this referendum to either support or not support Britain's inclusion in the EU.

Because of the loss of sovereignty of Britain to the EU and lack of democracy within the EU, and because it looks like in future there will be even further loss of sovereignty from Britain to the EU, I cannot support Britain's continued inclusion in the EU.

This leaves me two choices: either to spoil my ballot paper or to vote out.

Now I may be a fool, but I don't like being taken for a fool.

Also I don't respond well to threats. I find Cameron and Osborne are threatening me. They are threatening to cut pensions of the old if I vote out. They are threatening to slash public spending if I vote out. Barrack Obama threatens a trade war between the US and Britain if I vote out. The EC and other EU countries are threatening a trade war if I vote out. They are threatening to allow free passport to terrorists onto our shores if I vote out. They are threatening the possibility of real acts of war if I vote out.

I am sorry but there is no democracy if I am given a vote and then have a gun pointed to my head. They are effectively using the tactics of war against me. I can either resist or will forever have to submit to their threats.

My politicians haven't been able to help me shake off the feeling that the EU is an undemocratic Socialist-Big Capital type of enterprise, not dissimilar to the former Soviet Union, not dissimilar to the former Yugoslavia, not dissimilar to the former Ottoman Empire. These undemocratic superstructures fall apart sooner or later as will the EU if it continues in this vein.

I am for democratic reform of the EU. I am for a return of sovereignty from the undemocratic core of the EU to the nation states. But the EU is not that now and unlikely ever to be that under present circumstances. It is a question of whether England continues to be an independent state or whether everything is lost to an undemocratic superstructure.

Hence I shall either spoil my ballot paper or vote out.

Nore Staat wrote:Also I don't respond well to threats.  I find Cameron and Osborne are threatening me.  They are threatening to cut pensions of the old if I vote out.  They are threatening to slash public spending if I vote out.  Barrack Obama threatens a trade war between the US and Britain if I vote out.  The EC and other EU countries are threatening a trade war if I vote out.  They are threatening to allow free passport to terrorists onto our shores if I vote out.  They are threatening the possibility of real acts of war if I vote out.

I am sorry but there is no democracy if I am given a vote and then have a gun pointed to my head.  They are effectively using the tactics of war against me.  I can either resist or will forever have to submit to their threats.

What on Earth are you talking about??

Nore Staat wrote:The way I see it at the moment is as follows:

I have been given a democratic opportunity through this referendum to either support or not support Britain's inclusion in the EU.

Because of the loss of sovereignty of Britain to the EU and lack of democracy within the EU, and because it looks like in future there will be even further loss of sovereignty from Britain to the EU, I cannot support Britain's continued inclusion in the EU.

This leaves me two choices: either to spoil my ballot paper or to vote out.

Now I may be a fool, but I don't like being taken for a fool.

Also I don't respond well to threats.  I find Cameron and Osborne are threatening me.  They are threatening to cut pensions of the old if I vote out.  They are threatening to slash public spending if I vote out.  Barrack Obama threatens a trade war between the US and Britain if I vote out.  The EC and other EU countries are threatening a trade war if I vote out.  They are threatening to allow free passport to terrorists onto our shores if I vote out.  They are threatening the possibility of real acts of war if I vote out.

I am sorry but there is no democracy if I am given a vote and then have a gun pointed to my head.  They are effectively using the tactics of war against me.  I can either resist or will forever have to submit to their threats.

My politicians haven't been able to help me shake off the feeling that the EU is an undemocratic Socialist-Big Capital type of enterprise, not dissimilar to the former Soviet Union, not dissimilar to the former Yugoslavia, not dissimilar to the former Ottoman Empire.  These undemocratic superstructures fall apart sooner or later as will the EU if it continues in this vein.

I am for democratic reform of the EU.  I am for a return of sovereignty from the undemocratic core of the EU to the nation states.  But the EU is not that now and unlikely ever to be that under present circumstances.  It is a question of whether England continues to be an independent state or whether everything is lost to an undemocratic superstructure.

Hence I shall either spoil my ballot paper or vote out.

?

The 2 billion isn't health tourism it's treating tourists who become unwell.

In or out the nhs needs to be better at reclaiming this money from these tourists insurance companies or their own government.

Even the eye watering sum of 2 billion pounds is a drop in the ocean for the nhs, nhs England's budget this year is approx 105 billion. And that doesn't include the percentage of public spending in ni, Wales, Scotland.

Health tourism is thought to cost a lot less.

You sound like dolphin losing his nut over football. But you've given your reasons that's fair enough. Just could you provide context...in particular which laws make you believe that our sovereignty is being impugned. I thought duty was a high school leaver at 16?

So - seriously.  Have any of you changed each other's opinions since this debate began????

Somebody that started out Leave and has now gone to Remain or vice versa?

I saw whatshismname a few days ago - Gordon Brown - and he was doing his Middle-of-the-Circle Statesman routine.  And he was doing his point by point thing - like a boxer in a ring really, jabbing and dancing.

But the room was full of people with Remain placards of one sort or another; and all of them nodding knowingly as he made his points.  Preaching to the converted isn't the best trick to swing undecided voters.  What was the point of wasting his energy talking to people who already agreed with him?

You might say 'well it was televised idiot!' Yeah it was - and the idiots (Leave voters) would have spent most of the time laughing at the guy preaching passionately to his own people.

Ent wrote:The 2 billion isn't health tourism it's treating tourists who become unwell.

In or out the nhs needs to be better at reclaiming this money from these tourists insurance companies or their own government.

Even the eye watering sum of 2 billion pounds is a drop in the ocean for the nhs, nhs England's budget this year is approx 105 billion. And that doesn't include the percentage of public spending in ni, Wales, Scotland.

Health tourism is thought to cost a lot less.

Exactly right. Classic Express journalism.

SecretFly wrote:So - seriously.  Have any of you changed each other's opinions since this debate began????

Somebody that started out Leave and has now gone to Remain or vice versa?

I saw whatshismname a few days ago - Gordon Brown - and he was doing his Middle-of-the-Circle Statesman routine.  And he was doing his point by point thing - like a boxer in a ring really, jabbing and dancing.

But the room was full of people with Remain placards of one sort or another; and all of them nodding knowingly as he made his points.  Preaching to the converted isn't the best trick to swing undecided voters.  What was the point of wasting his energy talking to people who already agreed with him?

You might say 'well it was televised idiot!' Yeah it was - and the idiots (Leave voters) would have spent most of the time laughing at the guy preaching passionately to his own people.

It was widely reported in the media, so you didn't have to be there or watch it on TV, you could also read his speech summarised in numerous mediums across the media spectrum.

You can mock Gordon Brown all you like, but I wish we had more politicians like him. Serious, considered, intelligent and widely respected. He was, as it turns out, a pretty awful Prime Minister, but regardless of his politics at least he had an intellect you could respect. The current bunch just seem so lightweight by comparison. He also played a big role in convincing people to vote "No" in the Scottish referendum, so I am not surprised to see him here trying to convince people to make the right decision once again.

superflyweight wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:... It is a question of whether England continues to be an independent state or whether everything is lost to an undemocratic superstructure.

Hence I shall either spoil my ballot paper or vote out.

?

I should have used Britain, but the response has been Britain will fall apart if I vote out. Since I am a democrat - I will accept Britain falling apart if that is the democratic wish. So I can only make a claim for England as I was born English.

Ps) Before the announcement of the referendum David Cameron went to Brussels in an attempt to get major powers repatriated to Westminster.  He failed.

Nore Staat wrote: They are threatening to cut pensions of the old if I vote out.  They are threatening to slash public spending if I vote out.  Barrack Obama threatens a trade war between the US and Britain if I vote out.  The EC and other EU countries are threatening a trade war if I vote out.  They are threatening to allow free passport to terrorists onto our shores if I vote out.  They are threatening the possibility of real acts of war if I vote out.

That's not really accurate is it. The Economists and money markets are pointing out that Britain will be poorer following a Brexit, which means that, to maintain the Government's finances, spending needs to be cut, or taxes raised. It really ought to be up to the Brexiters to explain how they'd make up the £30 billion shortfall.

Obama isn't threatening a trade war. Just saying Britian shouldn't expect any favours if it leaves the EU - especially as it will lose a lot of relevance on the world stage.

Other EU countries are saying pretty much the same think.

Who is allowing free passports to terrorists - is this another scare story?

Who is threatening war? Europe will be a less stable place with the UK out - which is why Russia favours out (and favoured a Scottish leave vote).

At the end of the day, the Scots saw economic sense and voted to remain part of the UK and the EU. Hopefully the UK as a whole will also see economic sense.

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hero wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

Hero wrote:I work for a company that provide these tests for overseas doctors, they're about as rigorous a test as being able to pat your head and rub your tummy.

You literally know zilch about it. Typical Remain brigadier.

Hero wrote:And combined with the current issues between the BMA and Jeremy Hunt then the removal of the ETD will see British trained doctors leaving the UK in unprecedented numbers.

The article states that British trained doctors leave anyway, there's a continuous flow of this.

I've actually worked 10 years for one of the few companies in the UK that provides dedicated training for overseas doctors, so I'd hope I know a teensy bit more than zilch. The PLAB exam is the current format of exam for overseas doctors, currently the GMC are looking to overhaul it by 2019 due to it not being rigorous enough.

Yeah probably a bit more than zilch, but nowhere near enough to know what you're claim, or your claims be relevant to the current staffing and training policies in the NHS.

Oh dear: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/666454/NHS-EU-killed-off-Brexit-Remain-Leave-referendum-Brussels-European-Union

So there's the money Boris is clamouring on about and this:

The ban would save £300million a year, according to medical travel facilitator Medigo, freeing up much needed cash to boost Britain’s desperately overstretched health service.

Vote Leave chairwoman and Labour MP Gisela Stuart said: “The UK has been getting short-changed by the EU for years. We hand over £350million to Brussels every week but get less than half of that back - with strings attached.

"On top of that, health tourism from the EU has cost us billions. This money could have been much better spent - it could have been invested to improve care for NHS patients.

"If we vote Leave we will be able to stop handing over so much money to the EU and we would be able to spend our money on priorities here in the UK like abolishing prescription charges and investing in the NHS."

Research conducted by Medigo broke down the cost of NHS treatment to find Britain was spending £9.3m on Irish health tourists, £4.8m on French and £3.6m Belgian.Another £3million a year was spent treating Spanish residents.

In March figures from the Department of Health revealed Britain was forking out £2billion a year in medical treatment due to health tourism, so the savings may be even higher.

More at: http://www.express.co.uk/news/uk/673724/NHS-Brexit-health-tourism-save-300-million

Health tourism is particularly hard to pinpoint to a figure as it's intentional traveling to the UK to make benefit of the NHS but a more accurate figure is that it costs us between £110-£280m a year.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Ent wrote:The 2 billion isn't health tourism it's treating tourists who become unwell.

In or out the nhs needs to be better at reclaiming this money from these tourists insurance companies or their own government.

Even the eye watering sum of 2 billion pounds is a drop in the ocean for the nhs, nhs England's budget this year is approx 105 billion. And that doesn't include the percentage of public spending in ni, Wales, Scotland.

Health tourism is thought to cost a lot less.

Exactly right. Classic Express journalism.

What hope has the nation got, this 350 million has been refuted, promised to everyone and is still being used as a reason to leave.

Nore Staat wrote:Ps) Before the announcement of the referendum David Cameron went to Brussels in an attempt to get major powers repatriated to Westminster.  He failed.

Apart from agreement that:
- Ever Closer Union doesn't apply (OK, it died a decade ago, but lets make it explicit).
- That the Euro zone cannot make policy which impacts on non Euro members (of course, it can impact non-EU members, so goodbye City of London in even of Brexit).
- EU immigrants can't claim benefits for a few years. I forget how many because most of them are here to work and the do the jobs the Brits don't want to do)

Is this Nore Staat a bit, well, "challenged"?

Hero wrote:
Health tourism is particularly hard to pinpoint to a figure as it's intentional traveling to the UK to make benefit of the NHS but a more accurate figure is that it costs us between £110-£280m a year.

I thought it was intentional travelling FROM the UK - usually old people retiring to use Spain's healthcare system .

Ent wrote:

funnyExiledScot wrote:

Ent wrote:The 2 billion isn't health tourism it's treating tourists who become unwell.

In or out the nhs needs to be better at reclaiming this money from these tourists insurance companies or their own government.

Even the eye watering sum of 2 billion pounds is a drop in the ocean for the nhs, nhs England's budget this year is approx 105 billion. And that doesn't include the percentage of public spending in ni, Wales, Scotland.

Health tourism is thought to cost a lot less.

Exactly right. Classic Express journalism.

What hope has the nation got, this 350 million has been refuted, promised to everyone and is still being used as a reason to leave.

It's all going to the NHS so sod those Welsh shopping centres that need building or stuff like research.

As the referendum vote is about the future it is impossible to provide facts.

Economists who failed to foresee the 2008 financial crisis face scepticism about their forecastings of the consequences of leaving or remaining.

But of course leaders can influence the market by declaring trade wars. They are threatening a trade war in order to deny me my democratic choice in this referendum.

Coxy001 wrote:Is this Nore Staat a bit, well, "challenged"?

This is exactly the type of response which will make me more likely to vote out.

Nore Staat wrote:Ps) Before the announcement of the referendum David Cameron went to Brussels in an attempt to get major powers repatriated to Westminster.  He failed.

He went to negotiate several things and was successful in some of them. The ability to not pay immigrants benefits until certain criteria are met has gone through for one.

I find your line of thinking bizarre. If Britain loses sovereignty because of the eu and you vote out, you hand ultimate sovereignty to this government you think is threatening you with war and poverty.

I don't think any of the above just think your reasoning is really really illogical.

Nore Staat wrote:As the referendum vote is about the future it is impossible to provide facts.  

Economists who failed to foresee the 2008 financial crisis face scepticism about their forecastings of the consequences of leaving or remaining.

But of course leaders can influence the market by declaring trade wars.  They are threatening a trade war in order to deny me my democratic choice in this referendum.

Economists are not good at seeing "events". But if you tell them the event, they're reasonably good at predicting the outcome. And this one is pretty easy to predict.

That said - the currency markets tend to be more on the ball, and they're pretty clear - a Brexit is a 20-30% pay cut.

No one has threatened a trade war. So far they are being polite, though I would expect negotiations with the EU to be very difficult, as
1. Spain will block an agreement unless it gets something on Gibraltar
2. Other countries may like to delay any agreement till major foreign owned companies (banks and car companies especially) have relocated their operations to the Continent.

As for the USA - negotiating a trade deal with the UK (or perhaps England) is not a priority. For England, it will be a priority. That mean England will just have to accept the US terms as they stand.

Nore Staat wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:Is this Nore Staat a bit, well, "challenged"?

This is exactly the type of response which will make me more likely to vote out.

If being insulted by someone on the internet sways your vote on probably the biggest decision for the country in our lifetime then perhaps abstaining is best for you.

Hero wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:Is this Nore Staat a bit, well, "challenged"?

This is exactly the type of response which will make me more likely to vote out.

If being insulted by someone on the internet sways your vote on probably the biggest decision for the country in our lifetime then perhaps abstaining is best for you.

Steady on - I don't think we need to cut his b0llocks off.

I just want to know whatever a democratic trade war is, or whatever it is he's warbling on about.

funnyExiledScot wrote:

You can mock Gordon Brown . He was, as it turns out, a pretty awful Prime Minister, but regardless of his politics at least he had an intellect you could respect.

An awful Prime Minister (ie wrong ideas, wrong mind-set, wrong policies, wrong approach??) but wise and knowledgeable when telling you something you already agree with?

Yes, that was my initial point - about his handlers really, not so much about him. He has his opinions, fine - his handlers though should have him talking to a roomful of cynics/sceptics for best results...not to a roomful of nodding heads.

Hero wrote:

Nore Staat wrote:

Coxy001 wrote:Is this Nore Staat a bit, well, "challenged"?

This is exactly the type of response which will make me more likely to vote out.

If being insulted by someone on the internet sways your vote on probably the biggest decision for the country in our lifetime then perhaps abstaining is best for you.

Steady on - I don't think he should have to climb down vertical rock faces using ropes.