Wales vs New Zealand 25 June 2016

First topic message reminder :

New Zealand v Wales, 18 June

Post by George Carlin on Wed 15 Jun 2016, 2:16 am
       
NEW ZEALAND v WALES
25 June 2016
19:35 NZST (UTC+12)
Forsyth Barr Stadium, Dunedin

Live on [tbc]

Referee:  Jérôme Garcès
Touch judges: Jaco Peyper, Andrew Lees
Television match official: George Ayoub

A. Head to Head

32 Played 32
29 Won 3
0 Drawn 0
3 Lost 29
991 Points 350

B. Recent Form

18 June 2016 - Westpac Stadium, Wellington: 36-22 to New Zealand

11 June 2016 - Eden Park, Auckland: 39-21 to New Zealand

22 November 2014 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 16 – 34 to New Zealand

24 November 2012 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 10 – 33 to New Zealand

27 November 2010 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 25 – 37 to New Zealand

26 June 2010 - Waikato Stadium, Hamilton: 29 – 10 to New Zealand

19 June 2010 - Carisbrook, Dunedin: 42 – 9 to New Zealand

7 November 2009 - Millennium Stadium, Cardiff: 12 – 19 to New Zealand

C. Teams

NEW ZEALAND

Israel Dagg; Ben Smith, George Moala, Ryan Crotty, Julian Savea,  Beauden Barrett, Aaron Smith; Joe Moody, Dane Coles, Charlie Faumuina, Brodie Retallick, Sam Whitelock, Elliot Dixon, Sam Cane, Kieran Read (capt).

Replacements: Codie Taylor, Wyatt Crockett, Ofa Tu'ungafasi,  Luke Romano,  Liam Squire, Tawera Kerr-Barlow,  Lima Sopoaga, Waisake Naholo.

WALES

Rhys Patchell, Liam Williams, Jonathan Davies, Jamie Roberts, Hallam Amos, Dan Biggar, Rhys Webb, Rob Evans, Ken Owens, Tomas Francis, Luke Charteris, Alun Wyn Jones, Ross Moriarty, Sam Warburton (capt), Taulupe Faletau.

Replacements: Scott Baldwin, Aaron Jarvis, Samson Lee,  Jake Ball, Ellis Jenkins, Gareth Davies, Rhys Priestland, Scott Williams.

3 games in a row against the ABs is simply too much for any NH team these days specially in June after a long-ish season. We should limit the tours to 2 games really with possibly a game against a PI in between.

nathan wrote:

mikey_dragon wrote:

offload wrote:I know the AB counter attack is brilliant, but if you miss so many tackles and kick like amateurs, any team can look brilliant.  The AB back three must think all their Christmases have come at once playing this lot.

I know our execution isn't good enough and we're second best in the collisions by some margin, but Wales look like they're under old orders. Their ball-play and energy that was evident from the first two tests just isn't there.

That's not an excuse for their poor kicking though which is what is putting themselves under more pressure. They need to make touch and slow the game down

What do you mean? I was simply alluding to something that I believe is the reason for Wales going backwards by this final test.

I think Liam Williams has been great on the tour.

I mean if that's the case that they are knackered they need to manage the game better, ensure kicks make touch and slow the game down.

I can't see any of the NH teams winning this weekend as they'll all be knackered

whocares wrote:3 games in a row against the ABs is simply too much for any NH team these days specially in June after a long-ish season. We should limit the tours to 2 games really with possibly a game against a PI in between.

Wales had an extra game against the Chiefs too, plus the England/Wales game

nathan wrote:

whocares wrote:3 games in a row against the ABs is simply too much for any NH team these days specially in June after a long-ish season. We should limit the tours to 2 games really with possibly a game against a PI in between.

Wales had an extra game against the Chiefs too, plus the England/Wales game

So it's their own fault then?

I agree with Hammer that LW has done well - probably the only positive that Wales can take from the tour. Unless Gatland resigns after this latest drubbing....

HammerofThunor wrote:I think Liam Williams has been great on the tour.

He is a fantastic player, I am not sure if Halfpenny will walk back into the 15 spot with him playing there.

Agreed LW has been very good.

We are fortunate that the AB's are making so many mistakes.

eirebilly wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:I think Liam Williams has been great on the tour.

He is a fantastic player, I am not sure if Halfpenny will walk back into the 15 spot with him playing there.

I thought a while ago that there is no way I would play Halfpenny over Williams if Biggar was kicking. Without his goal kicking there is no question IMO.

For me in this series, only Williams, Faletau, North and perhaps Webb have shown enough class to compete. Plenty have tried hard, but not enough skill.

Embarrassing.

Can't see how the 7 could have won that ball legally for the last try. Not that is matters.....

Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow. That was not a vintage nz side. Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

The ABs are a different class and Gatland did as well as he could. He'll be bringing more red shirts to NZ next year and the results will be no different.

Have to agree with the above, Liam williams the best Welsh player of the series for me. Fantastic player

If Gatland brings them you may be right

englandglory4ever wrote:Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow.  That was not a vintage nz side.  Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

This AB vintage would rip the current pedestrian England vintage a new a*rsehole

Wales gave it a nudge in the first two tests

Well played Wales those guys were out on their feet after playing solid rugby since the World cup.

Its a hard call for any team in the World to come to New Zealand and try and beat the All Blacks. well behaved off the field too, its a pleasure to have them.

ebop wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow.  That was not a vintage nz side.  Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

This AB vintage would rip the current pedestrian England vintage a new a*rsehole

Wales gave it a nudge in the first two tests

Yes of course they would as we all know the ABs are unbeatable 

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow.  That was not a vintage nz side.  Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

This AB vintage would rip the current pedestrian England vintage a new a*rsehole

Wales gave it a nudge in the first two tests

Yes of course they would as we know all know the ABs are unbeatable 

Yeah but we all know England 'want' to be the best

Talk is cheap mate

The AB's made quite a few mistakes and took their foot off the gas a bit after 65 mins.
I think Roberts is probably past his sell by date now and JD has always been a bit slow - need to find alternatives there.
If this is the best that Gatland can do - and it probably is - then he should probably resign now - and he certainly shouldn't be anywhere near the Lions next year.
Get Schmidt, Baxter, Townsend involved, coaches that will try something a bit different, maybe Cotter too as the 'bad cop' in the team. Can't see RFU letting Jones near the Lions just yet.

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow.  That was not a vintage nz side.  Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

This AB vintage would rip the current pedestrian England vintage a new a*rsehole

Wales gave it a nudge in the first two tests

Yes of course they would as we know all know the ABs are unbeatable 

Yeah but we all know England 'want' to be the best

Talk is cheap mate

What is it with your fixation around that - what the hell is wrong with wanting to be the best?   Is it that nobody has the right to want to have the ambition to be the best in their sport as that would mean having to be better than the untouchable ABs?  I really struggle to understand your problem with this.  Saying you're the best I could understand, but saying you want to be best - really?  Should they say actually we only want to be number 2 as we realise nobody else should be allowed to compete with the rugby gods.

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow.  That was not a vintage nz side.  Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

This AB vintage would rip the current pedestrian England vintage a new a*rsehole

Wales gave it a nudge in the first two tests

Yes of course they would as we know all know the ABs are unbeatable 

Yeah but we all know England 'want' to be the best

Talk is cheap mate

What is it with your fixation around that - what the hell is wrong with wanting to be the best?   Is it that nobody has the right to want to have the ambition to be the best in their sport as that would mean having to be better than the untouchable ABs?  I really struggle to understand your problem with this.  Saying you're the best I could understand, but saying you want to be best - really?  Should they say actually we only want to be number 2 as we realise nobody else should be allowed to compete with the rugby gods.

Because it's funny

I want I want I want

To be fair, I only brought it up because englandglory said some unnecessary things about Wales whom I thought have been great tourists and gave it a nudge.

Do you reckon the ABs would smoke England?

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow.  That was not a vintage nz side.  Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

This AB vintage would rip the current pedestrian England vintage a new a*rsehole

Wales gave it a nudge in the first two tests

Yes of course they would as we know all know the ABs are unbeatable 

Yeah but we all know England 'want' to be the best

Talk is cheap mate

What is it with your fixation around that - what the hell is wrong with wanting to be the best?   Is it that nobody has the right to want to have the ambition to be the best in their sport as that would mean having to be better than the untouchable ABs?  I really struggle to understand your problem with this.  Saying you're the best I could understand, but saying you want to be best - really?  Should they say actually we only want to be number 2 as we realise nobody else should be allowed to compete with the rugby gods.

Well to be fair he was just responding to some arrogant tw@t having another pop at Wales. It's still a bit strange  that some englanders are over obsessed with Wales' rugby team. I know you all like to go on about some Welsh being obsessed with your football team, which is true, but it's hypocritical too.

No he's said the same on other threads so it seems for some reason he's got a bee in his bonnet about it so we'll call it quits there I think.

To be honest I think 'most' English posters today have just been disappointed that Wales didn't play as well as we know they can for whatever reasons as we (well I know I) would have loved to see a win for them.  You may have noticed many have said how impressed we've been with LW on this tour too.

No heaf, mikey_dragon is right

Heaf wrote:No he's said the same on other threads so it seems for some reason he's got a bee in his bonnet about it so we'll call it quits there I think.

To be honest I think 'most' English posters today have just been disappointed that Wales didn't play as well as we know they can for whatever reasons as we (well I know I) would have loved to see a win for them.  You may have noticed many have said how impressed we've been with LW on this tour too.

Ah well we're disappointed too and I think it just confirms that we do need new staff that can bring fresh ideas. We're happy to see England do well though, NH team turning over a SH superpower is always good.

Yes I think you have the players but the coaches aren't getting the best from them at the moment for some reason.

Feels like Wales have the players but perhaps new leadership is needed.

They did look very tired here though, not sure if they've been worked too hard.

Outside the main 20-25 players I don't think we have the players either, certainly not with experience at this level.

ebop wrote:

Heaf wrote:

ebop wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow.  That was not a vintage nz side.  Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

This AB vintage would rip the current pedestrian England vintage a new a*rsehole

Wales gave it a nudge in the first two tests

Yes of course they would as we know all know the ABs are unbeatable 

Yeah but we all know England 'want' to be the best

Talk is cheap mate

I agree. Why do you do so much of it then?

New Zealand are clearly the best team in the world. However England are a far better team currently than Wales so I can see no reason to think NZ would thrash them or to call them pedestrian.

As for England wanting to be the best of course they do. Why should they not? If I was you Ebop, I would worry about the declining standard of New Zealand junior rugby. The first few under 20 world cups were dominated by New Zealand and that has translated into their current dominance at the full test level. England have been the best over the last few U20s world cups (two wins, a second and finalists later today). With the Baby Blacks crashing early out in embarrassing fashion this year it does not bode well for the future.

Enjoy it while you still can.

Being the best at U20 level doesn't necessarily ensure you'll go on to be dominant on senior level, but it does allow you to cherry pick some good players and transition them into the senior team. Anyone who thinks the All Black conveyor belt is slowing down is deluded, just take a look at their super rugby teams.

mikey_dragon wrote:Being the best at U20 level doesn't necessarily ensure you'll go on to be dominant on senior level, but it does allow you to cherry pick some good players and transition them into the senior team. Anyone who thinks the All Black conveyor belt is slowing down is deluded, just take a look at their super rugby teams.

Shut up Mikey, there are some things we want people to think...

mikey_dragon wrote:Being the best at U20 level doesn't necessarily ensure you'll go on to be dominant on senior level, but it does allow you to cherry pick some good players and transition them into the senior team. Anyone who thinks the All Black conveyor belt is slowing down is deluded, just take a look at their super rugby teams.

The super rugby teams of today are the young players of a few years ago when NZ were clearly the best at that level. Today quite obviously they are not.

Who is the arrogant ebop bloke? Who the hell does he think he is? We all know and accept nz are #1 and the rest of us are trying to catch them. That team that played today would have the arses handed to them by England. The pure arrogance to think that a nz B team can beat the #2 side in the world is beyond belief. Wales were awful today in almost every facet of the game. They have no pace in the centre and were found out big time. Wales need to wake up to that and find a way to get better. I wanted them to be so much better than that. There's nothing I'd like better than to see any side in the world bar none wipe the smirking grins off that bunch of a holes.

Wow

Someone has their hand on it

Back

Forth

And back and forth

Exiledinborders wrote:Enjoy it while you still can.

Ok, I will thank you

Swear to god some of you guys are tapped

Have the Welsh coaches run their course? It seems that things are a little stagnated and a bit of a coaching shake up might get things moving again. Wales seem a little predictable at present and they clearly have some good players so it's not lack of ability.

Is there some stand out Welsh coaches that could come in and freshen things like say Gustard has given the English defence some teeth. Could these new coaches be tested next summer with a view to more permanent positions should Gats get the Lions call again?

ebop wrote:

englandglory4ever wrote:Oh dear Wales that was dire. The defensive patterns are not world class. The centre pair of Roberts and Davies are donkey slow.  That was not a vintage nz side.  Wales were awful. Coaches need to take a long hard look at themselves. Embarrassing, and I'm English.

This AB vintage would rip the current pedestrian England vintage a new a*rsehole

Wales gave it a nudge in the first two tests

After those performances from England against Aussie and their trouncing of Wales I don't think that's entirely fair. They're not at NZ's level but they've not been at all pedestrian.

formerly known as Sam wrote:Have the Welsh coaches run their course? It seems that things are a little stagnated and a bit of a coaching shake up might get things moving again. Wales seem a little predictable at present and they clearly have some good players so it's not lack of ability.

Is there some stand out Welsh coaches that could come in and freshen things like say Gustard has given the English defence some teeth. Could these new coaches be tested next summer with a view to more permanent positions should Gats get the Lions call again?

I think that myself, Wales are terrible and clearly in decline. I think we need to replace McBryde, Howley, and Edwards and freshed things up.

Shifty wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Have the Welsh coaches run their course? It seems that things are a little stagnated and a bit of a coaching shake up might get things moving again. Wales seem a little predictable at present and they clearly have some good players so it's not lack of ability.

Is there some stand out Welsh coaches that could come in and freshen things like say Gustard has given the English defence some teeth. Could these new coaches be tested next summer with a view to more permanent positions should Gats get the Lions call again?

I think that myself, Wales are terrible and clearly in decline.  I think we need to replace McBryde, Howley, and Edwards and freshed things up.

We can all think what we want about the coaches but it doesn't matter one iota, they've all signed new deals until after 2019.

bedfordwelsh wrote:

Shifty wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:Have the Welsh coaches run their course? It seems that things are a little stagnated and a bit of a coaching shake up might get things moving again. Wales seem a little predictable at present and they clearly have some good players so it's not lack of ability.

Is there some stand out Welsh coaches that could come in and freshen things like say Gustard has given the English defence some teeth. Could these new coaches be tested next summer with a view to more permanent positions should Gats get the Lions call again?

I think that myself, Wales are terrible and clearly in decline.  I think we need to replace McBryde, Howley, and Edwards and freshed things up.

We can all think what we want about the coaches but it doesn't matter one iota, they've all signed new deals until after 2019.

I am not sure the problem is with coaching anyway. The problem is selection. The Welsh backs are just far too slow. That is not something that can be put right with coaching. I do not watch enough Pro12 to know if there are faster alternatives. Are there?

ebop wrote:

Because it's funny

I want I want I want

To be fair, I only brought it up because englandglory said some unnecessary things about Wales whom I thought have been great tourists and gave it a nudge.

Do you reckon the ABs would smoke England?

Well England representative sides have played 10 times this summer and won all 10 games. I'm pretty sure that is unprecedented. The u20's beat two South Hemisphere sides on their way to yet again (3 years out of the last 4) being crowned the best u20 side in the world (good news for a senior side built on previous u20's players). The Saxons went to South Africa, and won 2-0, and the senior side humiliated Australia at home (not something we've seen before). We are a young side, improving fast with lots of potential to improve further, with tremendous strength in depth and lots of talent coming through.

NZ are obviously the best side in the world, but in a couple of years' time England will be considerably better than we are today. I think we already have a pack to hurt NZ (and the pack will certainly improve as it matures and as we feed in backrow talents like Evans, Underhill and Hughes), and by the time we next play NZ we should have players like Slade and Mallinder involved, which should move our back play up a level.

In the shorter term Gatland has an opportunity to try to repair his fraying reputation by using a lot of English players on tour next year. I think it is all very exciting, and rugby will benefit if someone challenges NZ dominance.

England have indeed won 10 games on the bounce and are the number
two in the world on merit.
Eddie Jones has taken what is basicly Lancasters squad and improved there
fitness levels,and co-opted short term coaching to improve skill levels.
NOW look back at SL`s record lost one game a season in the last 3 v
NH teams,[the equal of SCW`s 2003 side] beaten both Aus and NZ,drawn
with SA.
Humiliated Australia REALLY were you watching the same games as me
THE major factor this season is Farrells Goalkicking the number of
penalties he`s kicked is phenominal.
The Scrum is a joke in all 3 tests hardly one stayed up it was a case
of BOTH sides trying to milk freekicks/penalties.
With a decent Goal kicker Australia could have won all three,in
tries they outscored England in both first and final tests.
Cheika was hailed as a genius when Aus were winning BUT in
nearly every match they were playing 14 or 13 men most
of the time.
Without Cooper,Beale,Giteau,Mitchell,Ashley-cooper,Pocock they
have struggled.
In Phipps frankly it was embarrassing,dropping balls,slow or
hospital passes.
Certainly the Under20`s will come thru and strengthen the Squad
but DON`T make the mistake NZ will be weaker.
Nz develop players thru 7`s squad,Maori/Juniors,ITM,Super sides
unlike NH leagues they nearly all are NZ selectable.
ANY team can win a one of game it`s 23 v 23,NZ are a long way
from a settled team.
The pack bar at 7 is more or less sorted,the backs a lot of talent
but as yet unsettled goal kicking a weakness.
England have probably the most settled squad in the world today
Nz by 2017 will have a settled squad themselves.
You win matches by whatever means you can but SA will always
have a good setpiece,backrow,and a goal kicker.
The AI`s might mean losses as well as wins nothing is certain.

The usual anti-English shoite from emack.

Oh Cyril I`ve missed you it`s not anti-English it`s the truth but you
won`t admit it.
Since the RWC I`ve watched every 6 Ns match and enjoyed them,followed
the Premiership/Heineken Cup replacement tournament.
Nearly every 6 Ns match was decided by penalty shoot outs the laws
make playing the Ref mandatory.
The latest penalty /card seems to be competing for the ball in the air
with different citing s /decisions in every match.
You can`t knock England there winning by whatever means they
can.
Rather than take me on in sensible debate you try talking down to
me like I`m some kind of village idiot.
I REALLY love that my opinion is as valid as yours if England could
slow the game down they have every chance of beating NZ.
Especially the disjointed team of the last 3 games,they`ve only
played in patches.
WHEN they get it together this side will be RWC contenders again
BUT not yet.

emack2 wrote:
Humiliated Australia REALLY were you watching the same games as me

Yep, losing 3-0 at home to a NH side is humiliation for Australia as far as I can see.

I also thought the scrummaging in the third test was fine. England's scrum has come on massively under new coaching.

England will of course try to slow down NZ, as this is a key objective in rugby. Similarly, if NZ can't slow down England then England will probably win, as the pace England play at will continue to increase.

I think the Lions will be fascinating as a dress rehearsal for England vs NZ games to come. It will also be the first exposure to the All Blacks for many young English players, and therefore excellent experience.

More so if Eddie is the Lions coach.

DaveM wrote:I think the Lions will be fascinating as a dress rehearsal for England vs NZ games to come. It will also be the first exposure to the All Blacks for many young English players, and therefore excellent experience.

If Gatland is in charge it will give them experience of playing an even more limited game plan than the one from which they are trying to move on and losing. I do not think that is remotely helpful.

I hope Gatland is the manager and like last time the team is mostly Welsh. The less English involved the better.