England 45-man EPS

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com

• Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  
• Nathan Hughes included for first time
  

England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:

Guys that stood out for me on the Saxons tour were -
Ewers, Alec Hepburn, Dan Robson, Tommy Taylor, and Kvesic (in patches).

Wade was the guy for me. Defensive positioning and defending in general very good. Aways (as ever) a threat ball in hand. Not challenged at all in the air though.

Sadly conditions didn't allow him to showcase his real skills.

True, but it's not that that has kept him out but the doubt of his defence. Now granted he'll be tested more but surprisingly for me, given the other wing options over there, he looked most assured.

Its hopeful - I would love to see Wade come into the EPS and push for full international honours. But, I trust EJ to do it when its right.
Either when Wade has adequately proved that he can at least slow his man down till cover arrives to complete tackle (as with G.Ford). Or there is a serious drop in form for Nowell/Watson and the incumbents incl. Yard who seems to be rated by EJ.

Others that may come into the equation too - May, Rokko etc. There are a lot of guys competing for places, which is really nice to see.

Biggest issue for Wade is always going to be just how good the opposition kicking game can be at Int level.

But i'd love to see what Gustard could do with him over a month or so. I think Wasps would be pretty happy too.

Haskell out for up to 6 months now. Toe reconstruction

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36777767

lostinwales wrote:Haskell out for up to 6 months now. Toe reconstruction

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/36777767

Funnily enough, I was wondering about just that scenario, without knowing how serious his injury was.

Jones' first instinct was to try Harrison at seven but you'd think he won't be going that route for a first match against the Springboks.

There are a few options, but I suppose Jones might just consider the back five which played most of that final Test: Lawes alongside Kruis, with Itoje, Robshaw and Vunipola.

If he does stay with that selection, then it would suggest Jones won't be experimenting too much while the team is still winning.

The loss of Haskell is a massive blow. His level of play has been top class and he will be missed in the AIs. I cannot see EJ playing a specialist 7 for the first time against the Boks. Robshaw to 7 with Itoje to 6 as Rugby Fan states. That way the turnover ability is maintained and shared by a number of players. Ewers is an option at 6, but he will have to go some to force his way in.

4. Lawes, 5. Kruis, 6. Itoje, 7. Robshaw, 8. Vunipola

19. Clifford 20. Hughes/Ewers

That is what'll face the Springboks (hopefully, form and fitness permitting).

The lineout would be better with that back 5 too, which is a big plus against the Bok.

Cometh the hour, cometh Underhill

I should say, shame for Haskell, though. He has finally lived up to his potential. If someone else seizes the shirt, he may find it hard to get it back - though no-one else has really put their hand up.

Harrison and Kvesic were unconvincing, Clifford is clearly seen as a closer. I would laugh like a drain if Eddie puts Robshaw back at 7, but there's as much chance of that as there is of giving him the captaincy back. So I think Underhill will get his chance sooner rather than later

I said before Jones was appointed, that players who don't do what he wants very quickly fall out of favour. With a small playing group like Japan, that meant someone could find their way back into his good books by virtue of the new player also failing to deliver.

With England's playing resources, Jones could look elsewhere indefinitely in some cases, so we'll soon see whether he thinks it's important to help players who have a rough baptism, or whether he just decides it's curtains.

Harrison is the obvious test case here, especially because he's still young.

http://www.planetrugby.com/news/jones-wants-clarity-on-underhills-eligibility/

England head coach Eddie Jones is still seeking clarity on the availability of Ospreys flanker Sam Underhill to play for the Six Nations champions.

Underhill, who represented England at U18 level, has been on Jones' radar after several superb performances for the PRO12 outfit but the Rugby Football Union's (RFU) eligibility rules prevented the 19-year-old from playing during the Six Nations and England's triumphant tour of Australia.

According to RFU rules, a player who is not playing in England can only receive a Test call-up "in extraordinary circumstances".

When asked if the RFU had issued a clear directive on Underhill's eligibility, Jones replied: "yes and no".

"'Yes' is that I don't think that his position has changed, and the 'no' is that we still need to investigate. We'll just wait and see."

I think Jones is right to want a clear yes or no. Either this is a case of exceptional circumstances, or it isn't.When the rule was established, the RFU probably thought exceptional circumstances meant players falling like flies before a key match. It would be easier all round if the exceptional clause was just dropped,

Arguably, Underhill has sound reasons for being where he is but it's tricky if you start getting into motives. The Honey Badger went to Japan, but he had seemed to have everyone's blessing because his family needed expensive medical treatment. Yet, as several players pointed out, you don't need to have a family illness to want to provide for your family.

Hate to bring this up but if they decided Underhill was eligible and picked I wonder how the relationship between the RFU and the Ospreys would work, especially given the issues between the WRU and the PRL over access to the likes of North.

I understand and am happy with the PRL stance, just interested to see what happens when the situation is reversed

Presumably they would have access through the international window anyway as they won't have an agreement to pay any money to Ospreys for additional access.

If Underhill is so good then why hasn't an English club signed him up?

Didn't Gloucester try but he wanted to go to uni in Wales and just picked up his rugby at the local club?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Didn't Gloucester try but he wanted to go to uni in Wales and just picked up his rugby at the local club?

From reading on this site and elsewhere I believe he was on Gloucester's books but he wanted to do his degree at Cardiff. While there he started playing for Bridgend (? not sure) which happens to be a feeder club for the Ospreys, who liked the look of him very much..

Fair enough decision for a young guy realising there's more than rugby out there.

lostinwales wrote:Hate to bring this up but if they decided Underhill was eligible and picked I wonder how the relationship between the RFU and the Ospreys would work, especially given the issues between the WRU and the PRL over access to the likes of North.

I understand and am happy with the PRL stance, just interested to see what happens when the situation is reversed

The RFU will have access to Underhill for the International period, but England have a 4th AI this year, and will want him for the duration of the Six Nations (rather than sending him back each week). It will therefore depend whether the RFU get their chequebook out (as I doubt Underhill would have negotiated full release into his contract) - and this may be a true test of how heavily they're backing Eddie Jones.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Presumably they would have access through the international window anyway as they won't have an agreement to pay any money to Ospreys for additional access.

This is exactly why they told Morgan to move to England.

Its not just access outside the windows (which includes rest weekends during the 6 nations), the EPS gives the England management the ability to enforce the maximum number of games per season (although appareently this hasn't be used much) and gives primary control for medical issues to the England doctors rather than club ones.

If Underhill is staying with a Welsh club hes not going to be included the EPS and highly unlikley to be picked for England unless theres a real shortage, exceptional cases or not. He wont be available for all training camps, all games and all rest weekends and they wont have full control over him ...unless they have struck a specific deal in his contract with Ospreys...which we know isnt the case currently. It may be that they choose to do this to keep him at the club, its been made clear in the past to French based players theyd need additional release equivelant to EPS in their contracts to get selected.
I dont believe that there is a similar PRL type limitation stopping the Welsh regions from agreeing this sort of clause or just giving exemption anyway.

Its surprising their hasnt been more offers form Jeff clubs wanting to bring him of with the lure of senior England selection. Its unlikley that Ospreys would be able to match a determined premiership club on wages.

Jones is announcing 45-man elite playing squad in October.
http://www.talkingrugbyunion.co.uk/eddie-jones-targets-top-ranking-for-england-after-tour-de-france-visit/15834.htm
So there is a good amount of rugby to be played to give those not previously selected a chance to demonstrate form.

propdavid_london wrote:Jones is announcing 45-man elite playing squad in October. 

That's certainly better for the coach. Wonder how and when that change made it through, since the late announcement in 2014 was supposedly a one-off, owing to the special circumstance of the World Cup. Perhaps it was always intended to be permanent.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/33157.php#DFrco0oxIjJA76Bj.97

I wonder if the players that was in the England squad under Stuart Lancaster, that have since been dropped by Eddie Jones will get another chance of making the match day squad again.

The likes of Tom Wood, Ben Morgan, Brad Barrit, Tom Youngs, Manu Tualagi.

I do think it will be good for the players that are in the squad now to realise that there is some one just waiting for them to have a bad game, and they step in.

Will be very interesting to see how he brings through new players and how much consistency he provides with selections. Clearly a back row will come in but not sure who. A couple of selctions have been good or really good generally coming in gradually from the bench then a couple who faultered with starting places. Would he drop in an Underhill (or more likely Hughes?) straight away or would he want either Clifford or Itoje to start in the back row as they know the systems better and have that new guy on the bench?

majesticimperialman wrote:I wonder if the players that was in the England squad under Stuart Lancaster, that have since been dropped by Eddie Jones will get another chance of making the match day squad again.

The likes of Tom Wood, Ben Morgan, Brad Barrit, Tom Youngs, Manu  Tualagi.

I do think it will be good for the players that are in the squad now to realise that there is some one just waiting for them to have a bad game, and they step in.

If Manu gets back to full fitness and shows any form (and he showed promising form despite lacking fitness in his club games last season) he will be back. The others no. Ben Morgan has the best chance but that is slight. Tomx2 and Brad better options coming through now.

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Jones is announcing 45-man elite playing squad in October. 

That's certainly better for the coach. Wonder how and when that change made it through, since the late announcement in 2014 was supposedly a one-off, owing to the special circumstance of the World Cup. Perhaps it was always intended to be permanent.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/33157.php#DFrco0oxIjJA76Bj.97

It's possible that it's part of the new RFU-Club agreement (replacing the EPS one) that was signed in April and takes effect next year. It's also possible that it clarifies the "exceptional circumstances" rule - but from Jones's comments that doesn't appear to be the case.

Memories are short: the exceptional circumstances rule was specifically included with one player in mind. At the time the deal took effect the RFU knew that Wilkinson was off to Toulon and needed a loophole so they could include him. He was exceptional, those were the circumstances and the PRL accepted that disagreeing would harm the game. Since then, the RFU has taken a much harder line on overseas players - nearly all of whom have been senior international caps who have gone to France for a payday.

Underhill is in a different boat: he wasn't a senior player when he left England, he moved in order to further his education rather than cash in, and he becomes eligible for Wales next year. Clearly it's not a done deal, but I suspect one of two things is happening - either the RFU are arguing that he's another exceptional case, or they're negotiating him out of his Ospreys contract so that he can play for an English club - maybe Bristol?. I suspect that both PRL and RFU would agree that it's in their interest to offer him a cap for England before he has the option to go for Wales, so I expect some sort of deal will be done.

Poorfour wrote:

Rugby Fan wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Jones is announcing 45-man elite playing squad in October. 

That's certainly better for the coach. Wonder how and when that change made it through, since the late announcement in 2014 was supposedly a one-off, owing to the special circumstance of the World Cup. Perhaps it was always intended to be permanent.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/news/33157.php#DFrco0oxIjJA76Bj.97

It's possible that it's part of the new RFU-Club agreement (replacing the EPS one) that was signed in April and takes effect next year. It's also possible that it clarifies the "exceptional circumstances" rule - but from Jones's comments that doesn't appear to be the case.

Memories are short: the exceptional circumstances rule was specifically included with one player in mind. At the time the deal took effect the RFU knew that Wilkinson was off to Toulon and needed a loophole so they could include him. He was exceptional, those were the circumstances and the PRL accepted that disagreeing would harm the game. Since then, the RFU has taken a much harder line on overseas players - nearly all of whom have been senior international caps who have gone to France for a payday.

Underhill is in a different boat: he wasn't a senior player when he left England, he moved in order to further his education rather than cash in, and he becomes eligible for Wales next year. Clearly it's not a done deal, but I suspect one of two things is happening - either the RFU are arguing that he's another exceptional case, or they're negotiating him out of his Ospreys contract so that he can play for an English club - maybe Bristol?. I suspect that both PRL and RFU would agree that it's in their interest to offer him a cap for England before he has the option to go for Wales, so I expect some sort of deal will be done.

Do you have definitive proof on the eligibility thing? From what was said here before it seems to be a very grey area. Of course he is playing in Wales but as a student, presumably with a home adress in England its not exactly clear that he is resident there

2018 for Underhill I think to qualify for Wales but there is the student clause which would i guess only come up for argument if he wanted to choose Wales.

'What is the position of students?
As far as students are concerned, particularly those that are not financially
independent, being resident, as a full time student, in another country, is
likely to be considered as a series of temporary absences from the parental
home. It is anticipated that in the majority of cases involving students the
parental home is likely to continue to constitute the student’s permanent
and primary home. Accordingly, attendance at college/university in such
circumstances is unlikely to break a Player’s consecutive period of
Residence. However, as in all matters of eligibility, the overriding
concern of the Regulations Committee in assessing any such case will be
to ensure that there remains a close, credible and established link with the
country in which the Player claims to have retained his primary and
permanent home. There could be circumstances in which a student living
in another country may be deemed to have interrupted his Residency
period.'

Too slow, which is a change.

No 7&1/2 wrote:Will be very interesting to see how he brings through new players and how much consistency he provides with selections. Clearly a back row will come in but not sure who. A couple of selctions have been good or really good generally coming in gradually from the bench then a couple who faultered with starting places. Would he drop in an Underhill (or more likely Hughes?) straight away or would he want either Clifford or Itoje to start in the back row as they know the systems better and have that new guy on the bench?

He seems to have clear ideas about how he wants to use certain players - e.g. Clifford has started from the bench even when Haskell was out in the 3rd test. His comments on Hughes seem to suggest that he values his carrying but needs him to improve elsewhere before he'll consider him (and then at 6). Underhill he has said he rates (long term) above all the other contenders at 7, so my expectation would be that if he is available and checks out in training he will be given a shot sooner rather than later, and probably a starting one.

On eligibility, I am just going by what the papers have been saying today. As for student status, you'd imagine that Underhill's Ospreys contract would be enough for the WRU to claim that he was financially independent.

All of that suggests that Vunipola and Robshaw are fairly secure in their positions for the AIs if they maintain form and fitness, as I can't see him wanting to start against South Africa with an untried back row - he won't be wanting to make more than one substitution in the first half!

Yet the Harrison thing went south quickly and I still don't believe a thing Jones says in the press!

Poorfour wrote:Underhill is in a different boat: he wasn't a senior player when he left England, he moved in order to further his education rather than cash in, and he becomes eligible for Wales next year.

I thought residency was 3 years?

If The EPS announcement is to be in October, then I'll quietly walk back any statements I've made about who is in pole position for a spot.

No 7&1/2 wrote:I still don't believe a thing Jones says in the press!

Me neither, I believe he weighs up everything he says and there is always an ulterior motive. We will of course be proven correct should he either move Robshaw over to 7 or select Manu as a 13 at some point.

He's already had the jokey comment post 3rd test which I enjoyed about his 2 great 6.5s!

Rugby Fan wrote:If The EPS announcement is to be in October, then I'll quietly walk back any statements I've made about who is in pole position for a spot.

Andy Goode

Sgt_Pooly wrote:Haha....you're not far wrong Bam.

EJ has stated he doesn't rate Youngs set piece pre-England so I'd be surprised if he got back in contention. Hartley and George are clearly the best hookers available, the 3rd spot is relativity open, but I wouldn't expect Youngs to be one of those in the running, he's not good enough.

Lets be honest, he's said a lot of things before the world cup.

Regarding Youngs, it all depends on how his back is. I don't even know if he'll be starting pre season

I'd hazard a guess that Youngs will never play for an EJ England side unless a major injury crisis......thankfully.

We do need someone new to target now don't we? I suppose Brown is getting it a bit at the moment; my next call is people start at Ben Youngs, then Kruis.

Didn't realise they'd changed the rules regarding the EPS notice, it makes sense in terms of timing and also in terms of having one big squad of 45 as there are no November games for the Saxons. I suppose that would also give Jones the flexibility to include a couple of "eye on the future" places, Underhill or Mallinder maybe.

The key thing I think for Underhill isn't just when he qualifies it's where he wants to play. When I went to uni, I was in no doubt over my nationality. However, if he likes it in Wales and wants to stay playing for the Ospreys after he graduates, he'll be ineligible for England at that point. If he's unsure on his future and thinks he may want to stay in Wales, would he take 5 or so England caps now before locking himself out, or would he want to keep his options open?

Ineligible for England in the sense of him playing outside of the Prem you mean?

No 7&1/2 wrote:We do need someone new to target now don't we? I suppose Brown is getting it a bit at the moment; my next call is people start at Ben Youngs, then Kruis.

The criticism off Dan Cole has ebbed away for now, but I am sure it will return. Similar for ickle Georgie/TheBrand/Robshaw

LondonTiger wrote:

No 7&1/2 wrote:We do need someone new to target now don't we? I suppose Brown is getting it a bit at the moment; my next call is people start at Ben Youngs, then Kruis.

The criticism off Dan Cole has ebbed away for now, but I am sure it will return. Similar for ickle Georgie/TheBrand/Robshaw

Yeah, and those Vunipola brothers are a bit too fat
Hartley doesn't do anything outside of the set piece
When is that Itoje guy going to shut his mouth
Ford can't tackle
Farrell can't run
What does Joseph actually do and why doesn't he score tries anymore?
Nowell too slow can't defend
Watson doesn't score any tries...

We left out anyone yet?

LT - those players have all put in massive shifts, were rightly criticised when not on form. And now rightly are being praised.
Dan Cole had a poor WC, a solid 6N and an excellent tour. It was the same for most of those mentioned above.

Now that we know 'the brand' is out for 6mths EJ has to decide who will step into that No.7 shirt.

Re: Jones comments to the media. I think sometimes its also along the lines of 'go ahead prove to me I am wrong' to the players in question.

Wouldn't be at all shocked to see Robshaw at 7 in the autumn on that basis regardless of how he actually plays

Does no one think Hughes will be brought in to do the Haskell role?

Hes physical, huge, good at the breakdown, a lineout option. He could be given instruction to fill that role.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Does no one think Hughes will be brought in to do the Haskell role?

Hes physical, huge, good at the breakdown, a lineout option. He could be given instruction to fill that role.

Eddie has said he sees him as a 6, values his carrying but that he needs coaching in other areas. So I'd be surprised to see him played at 7.