England 45-man EPS

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com

• Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  
• Nathan Hughes included for first time
  

England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Does no one think Hughes will be brought in to do the Haskell role?

Hes physical, huge, good at the breakdown, a lineout option. He could be given instruction to fill that role.

He must be amongst the favourites, . Is it a blip for Harrison or is he out altogether? Are any other of the young guns ready? Does he start Clifford?

The only certainty is that Haskell won't be there

What is really annoying is that we have a long time to wait before finding out

We said that about Haskell aswell though...

I think that he will come into the EPS when qualified. Provided he shows the form of previous seasons. (I thought he went a bit quiet at the end of the season for Wasps).

I also suspect the fringe tourists will maintain them spots - I don't expect Clifford or Harrison to be dropped down to Saxons - Harrison I am sure will be given another chance at some point.

Itoje could make a more permanent move to the back row - although I much prefer him as a lock that can cover back row as I believe its his better position and gives you in-game flexibility.

I think Clifford is a finisher for the moment. But maybe as Jones evolves his style...maybe Clifford will come more to the fore.

I don't think you've seen the last of Harrison either. Maybe he was a bit shell shocked in his cameo...but hes played very well in the Prem and will learn from that experience.

Future back row of Billy V, Hughes and Clifford would be quite formidable. Rather all action.........would require the tight 5 to step up on breakdown work and give those guys plenty of on ball time.

Its quite the opposite of the Aussie - 3 fetchers

GeordieFalcon wrote:Its quite the opposite of the Aussie - 3 fetchers

Problem is thinking its a trend or just a way of getting your best players on the pitch.

Of the first choice Oz back row I don't think Fardy is quite in the fetcher mode. As a combo it only really worked because Pocock is generally so exceptional. Hooper is brilliant at what he does but then he spends more time on the wing than Croft did for us and he doesn't really offer anything in the tight.

No Fardy isn't a fetcher, but when he's replaced by McMahon it is

What are the next games in the AI

GeordieFalcon wrote:No Fardy isn't a fetcher, but when he's replaced by McMahon it is

Fardy went into the 2nd row

Insane that he had so much work to do covering for the rest of the back row and working hard in the lineout yet was often picked on as one of the poorer performers in the Wallabies team.

Few Questions:

Doesnt Haskell already do the Haskell role?

45 EPS? Isnt it (32-3 senior rest saxons 64? )

Eligability aside if Underhill were offered a Wales cap would he take it, or wait to be back in England next year?

No 7&1/2 wrote:Ineligible for England in the sense of him playing outside of the Prem you mean?

Yeah, didn't explain that well.

So we're all going on the basis that Underhill will play for Ospreys until he finishes at uni then "come home", and the RFU and PRL should accept this as an exceptional circumstance and allow Jones to use Underhill in this interim period.

But what if Underhill, although he's stated a preference for England, decides that after he finishes studying he wants to stay with the Ospreys? Maybe he forms a tight relationship with some of the playing or coaching staff, or a personal relationship outside of rugby that means he wishes to stay in Wales? I assume if he finishes studying and signs a new contract with the Ospreys, any exceptional circumstances he had been granted will quickly evaporate.

So if he's not sure about where his long-term future is, would he accept caps and commit to a country that will only allow him to play in the future if he moves from where he is currently based?

It depends what's stronger, his desire to play for England or his desire to play International rugby. Because if he wants to go on Lions tours and World Cups but also wants to live in Wales, the only option he'd have is to play for Wales.

Gooseberry: see my previous post.

He's English and wants to play for England. However, subject to his long-term plans, if he stops to think where he's going to live and play in 10 years time, he could possibly be illadvised to rush into this decision.

robbo277 wrote:Maybe he forms a tight relationship with some of the playing or coaching staff, or a personal relationship outside of rugby that means he wishes to stay in Wales? I assume if he finishes studying and signs a new contract with the Ospreys, any exceptional circumstances he had been granted will quickly evaporate.

Well someone needs to educate the lad he cannot fall for some dame over yonder.  Women do all sorts of terrible things.  Weaken his resolve, weaken the legs...........
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vxkMV-jj4vs

GeordieFalcon wrote:What are the next games in the AI

12 November - South Africa
19 November - Fiji
25 November - Argentina
3 December - Australia

No easy games there! Not a lot of opportunity for EJ to experiment either!
He will definitely want to get rid of the Hex that SA have over England at the moment.
And Argentina 'if they send a full strength side' will be a real challenge.
Oz will come with intent too.

Realistically Fiji is an easier one, with our pack back functioning again.

But would you rest people between to tough tests or keep the momentum going

Keep momentum going tbh, I think we should be playing our 1st team in every game, just like AB's do. If we need a tour to make changes etc then the summer tour while the Lions is on will be a good time.

yappysnap wrote:Keep momentum going tbh, I think we should be playing our 1st team in every game, just like AB's do. If we need a tour to make changes etc then the summer tour while the Lions is on will be a good time.

Agree with this, we only have to cast our eyes over to roundball and that Slovakia game to see the potential effect of too many changes on a team. England underperformed against Slovakia and then never recovered when they played Iceland.

You can make some tweaks, sure, but the core of the team and the gameplan should be much the same. Drops in form, injuries and suspensions will give us a chance to naturally rotate - as well as the Lions tour (and in truth, the post-Lions autumn series) allowing us to trial a host of new faces.

EJ wont want to let his IRB ranking slip.....that's the risk if you experiment.
The England tour during Lions will be a much weakened side, but are still full test matches and can impact on rank.

robbo277 there were more issues to Hodgson's England than just resting players vs Slovakia.

Hart's form was poor throughout, Kane couldn't hit a barn door, Rooney's performances weren't great, Sterling poor, Wilshere more often than not gave the ball to the other team. The defence was shaky.

England in any sport need to believe in the squad. England football didn't trust some of their players in better form like Rashford and Vardy.

Against Fiji, some 2nd choices need to start.

Players like George, Clifford,Hughes,Lawes if they are fit.

Rugby is a squad game because injuries happen and you need to be prepared. Need to trust players to perform.

Beshocked - do you start the 2nd choice players and have more established guys on the bench? Or do you go all out and have your 3rd choice or projects on the bench?

Do we finally get to see a Ben Teo have a pop - and Harrison get another chance?
Or do we start Daly for a change and rest Joseph?
Does Burrell get another chance or is he done - if Manu is fit does he get a pop.

There is experimentation and then there is experimentation - do we tweak or go all out?

I've got tickets for Fiji I hope it's not all 3rd choice!

Propdavid london it's about balance surely.

Depends which position needs looking at.

2nd row looks pretty comfortable. Don't think anyone would worry if any of Kruis,Itoje,Lawes or Launchbury starts but of course injuries happen.

Marler or Mako - good LH choices but if one is injured it changes thing.

Teo and Harrison aren't players I would currently consider.

Needs to be some continuity but also trying out others.

beshocked wrote:robbo277 there were more issues to Hodgson's England than just resting players vs Slovakia.

Hart's form was poor throughout, Kane couldn't hit a barn door, Rooney's performances weren't great, Sterling poor, Wilshere more often than not gave the ball to the other team. The defence was shaky.

England in any sport need to believe in the squad. England football didn't trust some of their players in better form like Rashford and Vardy.

Against Fiji, some 2nd choices need to start.

Players like George, Clifford,Hughes,Lawes if they are fit.

Rugby is a squad game because injuries happen and you need to be prepared. Need to trust players to perform.

We should have had momentum after the second half against Wales. But despite dominating possession, territory and chances against Slovakia, we failed to score (and we can't blame it on Rooney or Kane, as they were both rested).

Then when we went to play against Iceland and needed a goal (with 70 minutes to score one), we had no momentum, no confidence or belief.

What if we rest Hartley and Cole and the scrum struggles? What if we try a fetcher in the back row and we fail to clear out opposition jacklers? What if we go for a bosher at 12 and we can't get out our half because our tactical kicking game falls apart? The players who did play will start to doubt the players around them and the systems they are playing in. They might try to overplay their hands in the subsequent games.

I wouldn't say that they are as mentally fragile as the football team (who must be scarred by the years of failure), but I don't know why we would risk losing our momentum halfway through an important home series? Even if we pick a team strong enough to beat Fiji and they do beat Fiji, if the performance dips we might struggle to raise it again for later tests.

The players you mention are getting experience in and around the squad and off the bench, and will get their chances either when incumbents get injured, suspended, suffer a fall in form or get called up to the Lions.

yappysnap wrote:Keep momentum going tbh, I think we should be playing our 1st team in every game, just like AB's do. If we need a tour to make changes etc then the summer tour while the Lions is on will be a good time.

The ABs are also very smart at rotating players into their winning sides to allow development of depth and key players to be rested one at a time. Of course that's easier to do when you can rotate Nonu/Smith for SBW or rest Read by moving Kaino to 8 and playing 6.McCaw 7.Cane.

That's the kind of depth a side needs to have consistency at the top though.

Sending out a second string would be foolish but George, Hill and Daly need to be tried from the start of a game and their counterparts will need resting. Clifford as a possibility at 8 given how dependent we are on Billy could be important too. Watson at 15 similarly, Slade as a possibility in the midfield.

One other interesting combination to see would be Itoje and Launchbury together at lock. Currently not viable as neither run the line-out well enough but Itoje is improving all the time as a jumper and agianst Fiji, at Twickenham, with his club hooker (George) would be a good chance to see it. Especially if Clifford was at 8 as another jumper.

Not all should happen in the same game but they are the sort of possibilities that I hope Eddie will be wanting to test.

In reality we should be able to beat Fiji with the same team that beat Wales in the one off pre tour match this year.

But we don't want to break that rhythm that the players have, especially if worst case and we lose to the Bok. Unless there's a serious drop off from a player then no one should be getting dropped, all should be coming out te following week to hand it to Fiji and set themselves back on course.

Even if we do win our first game of be looking keep the team the same, we have plenty of bench slots for the possibles.

Well, hopefully after a bit of a break those players that were obviously knackered at the end of the tour will be nice, fresh and available for selection - I expect a full strength side for SA and Australia. 1 or 2 tweaks for Argentina (if they send a full strength RC team then we need our full side to handle them) and then a bit more experimentation for Fiji.

Team for Fiji could be something like -
Marler, George, Hill, Lawes, Launchbury, Robshaw, Harrison, Hughes, Youngs, Ford, Yarde, Farrell, Daly, Nowell, Watson

Team for SA/OZ
Mako, Hartley, Cole, Kruis, Itoje, Robshaw, Clifford, Billy V, Care, Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Brown

propdavid_london wrote:Well, hopefully after a bit of a break those players that were obviously knackered at the end of the tour will be nice, fresh and available for selection - I expect a full strength side for SA and Australia.  1 or 2 tweaks for Argentina (if they send a full strength RC team then we need our full side to handle them) and then a bit more experimentation for Fiji.  

Team for Fiji could be something like -
Marler, George, Hill, Lawes, Launchbury, Robshaw, Harrison, Hughes, Youngs, Ford, Yarde, Farrell, Daly, Nowell, Watson

Team for SA/OZ
Mako, Hartley, Cole, Kruis, Itoje, Robshaw, Clifford, Billy V, Care, Ford, Nowell, Farrell, Joseph, Watson, Brown

I see what you are doing with the scrum halves there...

Having mixed and matched the SHs in the 6Ns (YBY 3 starts DC 2?) but stuck with one down under it will be interesting to see if Jones has settled on a number one SH, or if the Australia tour was a horses for courses selection as he alleged was the case during the 6Ns.

And if Robson gets a try.

lost: Well, yes its a continuation of the rotation - although I do feel that Care was pipping Youngs in performance over summer. EJ obviously didn't think that as Youngs started 2 and Care 1.
I would like to see Robson come into the equation a bit more too. I think he has a lot of offer and a better pass than both the incumbents.
Competition is good.

LondonTiger wrote:Having mixed and matched the SHs in the 6Ns (YBY 3 starts DC 2?) but stuck with one down under it will be interesting to see if Jones has settled on a number one SH, or if the Australia tour was a horses for courses selection as he alleged was the case during the 6Ns.

I don't think Jones thinks about it that way. The one consistent thing about his benches is that they've tended to be players who can change a game in the last quarter. I think he wants Care testing tired defenders around the edge of rucks and making them second guess their decisions when their legs are tired. I don't think Youngs offers the same vision or threat in that regard, but is probably a more consistent starter. That's why I think that if Robson is going to break into the side, he'll probably do it by displacing Youngs from the starting shirt rather than Care from the bench.

If you look at the bench and fringe players, it's the same story with pretty much all of them: Hill, George, Genge, Sinckler, Lawes, Launchbury, Slade, Daly, Devoto and (eventually) Manu all bring something that offers a change in style and presents a further challenge for defences late in the game. Ditto whichever of Mako and Marler doesn't start.

I thought that more people would have issue with Ford-Farrell combination remaining for all matches.
Experimentation could just be what 13 you want to play outside Farrell - Joseph, Daily, Tuilagi
Although I forgot that Slade will hopefully get a shot (if form dictates).

Are we assuming that he'll stick with the 2nd fly half at 12 rather than going for a runner then

Well - yes I guess Slade could be interchangeable with Farrell with little drop off and you'd still have similar skill sets.
That being the case Slade would make an ideal bench option. (Again if showing old form before injury).

Its likely to be Ford/Farrell until injury or questions of form steps in. I think Joseph will prove hard to shift with that combo also, as his defensive work and all round contribution has been very good (and complementary), even if he doesn't get as many chances to show what he can do in attack these days.

Depending on luck and fate we could in a few months be playing with a 10/centre combo of Slade/Tuilagi/Daly (for example) and not necessarily be any weaker.

propdavid_london wrote:lost: Well, yes its a continuation of the rotation - although I do feel that Care was pipping Youngs in performance over summer.  EJ obviously didn't think that as Youngs started 2 and Care 1.
I would like to see Robson come into the equation a bit more too.  I think he has a lot of offer and a better pass than both the incumbents.
Competition is good.

Thought Youngs started all 3 tests in Aus

LT: You might be right, I thought Care started the 2nd test!

If I recall right it was more of a mix and match in the 6N, with the scrum half who came on 2nd generally looking better.

Just checked, in T2 Care came on at 65 minutes (72 in first and 53 in third)

lostinwales wrote:If I recall right it was more of a mix and match in the 6N, with the scrum half who came on 2nd generally looking better.

Youngs started 3, Care 2 in 6NS iirc.

The feedback that was spread seems to suggest that Jones originally felt Youngs was not fit enough for a Jones style game, but the slimmed down version gets to rucks and mauls quicker than Care, and gets the ball away quicker. Then add in the perceived better kicking game, with Care's perceived abilities against tired opponents and the die may now be cast.

Of course it can all change with a new season.

There was certainly more rotation of no.9s in the 6N.

Oops - a bit slow off the mark with my reply. So yes, it suggests that EJ prefers Youngs as a starter.

That view of course can change.

Jeez I cant believe none of you have mentioned Mickey Young for the 9 spot!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Jeez I cant believe none of you have mentioned Mickey Young for the 9 spot!

Currently 4th in line isn't he? Abrupt change in fortune since he dumped the Mickey and became Michael. So yeah a contender

I wouldn't have him as the falcons starter LT....

"The feedback that was spread seems to suggest that Jones originally felt Youngs was not fit enough for a Jones style game, but the slimmed down version gets to rucks and mauls quicker than Care, and gets the ball away quicker. Then add in the perceived better kicking game, with Care's perceived abilities against tired opponents and the die may now be cast. "

This could only be written by a Tigers fan. Care is much quicker and his pass is far superior to Youngs. His pass is quicker and more accurate and he gets the ball away without taking two or three steps. Youngs does have a better tactical kicking game than Care and I suspect that is the only reason he starts. Care provides energy and pace to the England game and is a key feature when England up the pace of play in the second half.

propdavid_london wrote:Well - yes I guess Slade could be interchangeable with Farrell with little drop off and you'd still have similar skill sets.
That being the case Slade would make an ideal bench option.  (Again if showing old form before injury).

But can Slade kick like Farrell? Farrell's kicking was a major factor in England's 3 v 0 white washing of Australia. He missed 3 or 4 kicks across all 3 games.