England 45-man EPS

First topic message reminder :

Post updated for Eddie Jones' training squad.

From EnglandRugby.com

• Final EPS to be announced on 30 September
  
• Nathan Hughes included for first time
  

England Head Coach Eddie Jones has announced a provisional 45-man elite player squad (EPS) for England’s pre-season training camp in August.

The squad will meet at the Lensbury Hotel from 6-8 August and take part in training, planning meetings and individual reviews in preparation for the Old Mutual Wealth Series against South Africa, Fiji, Argentina and Australia later in the year.

Jones has named a number of uncapped players to attend the camp. Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers) and Nathan Hughes (Wasps) are included for the first time while Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks), Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins) and Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors) have all previously spent time with England.

Following their series win in South Africa with England Saxons, Dan Robson (Wasps), Mike Haley (Sale Sharks) and Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby) will join the camp, as will Joe Marchant (Harlequins) and Will Evans (Leicester Tigers), who were part of the England team who won the World Rugby U20 Championship in June.

MOST DOMINANT TEAM IN THE WORLD
England will announce a final 45-man EPS on 30 September for the Old Mutual Wealth Series starting against South Africa at Twickenham Stadium on Saturday 12 November.

“This camp sets the scene for November,” said Jones. “It’s important to catch-up with the players prior to the start of the season and continue to put our plans in place.

“We’ll use this time to reset and review each player’s goals so they’re clear on what is expected of them between now and when we meet up again in October. It also gives us an opportunity to meet and assess some new players and ensure they are familiar with the England setup.

“The long-term strategy for England is to develop a side who can be the most dominant team in world rugby, so we’ve chosen a number of new faces to attend this camp on the form they have shown recently or the potential we see in them.

“There will always be opportunities for anyone playing consistently well in the Premiership at the start of the season to force their way into the EPS - the door is always open. Naturally players not included in this pre-season camp will be disappointed, but consistent high-level performances can change this."

HUGE CHALLENGE
England sealed a 3-0 whitewash of Australia in June and are now the second-ranked team in world rugby, however, Jones is expecting a "huge challenge" from their next opponents at Twickenham - South Africa.

“England has not beaten South Africa since 2006 and we’ve lost our last five games against the Springboks at Twickenham," said Jones. "Not a single player who will attend the pre-season camp has played in a side that has ever beaten South Africa.

“While we acknowledge that we’re moving in the right direction we also recognise that defeat is never far away. It’s important the players all keep trying to improve and push themselves to reach new standards in their game. We cannot afford to have any complacency in our approach to this Test.”

45 man provisional EPS for England’s August training camp

Forwards

Josh Beaumont (Sale Sharks)

Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)

Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs)

Jack Clifford (Harlequins)

Will Evans (Leicester Tigers)

Charlie Ewels (Bath Rugby)

Jamie George (Saracens)

Ellis Genge (Leicester Tigers)

Teimana Harrison (Northampton Saints)

Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)

James Haskell (Wasps)

Paul Hill (Northampton Saints)  

Nathan Hughes (Wasps)

Maro Itoje (Saracens)

George Kruis (Saracens)

Joe Launchbury (Wasps)

Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)

Joe Marler (Harlequins)

Matt Mullan (Wasps)

Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)

Kyle Sinckler (Harlequins)

Billy Vunipola (Saracens)

Mako Vunipola (Saracens)

Mike Williams (Leicester Tigers)

Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Backs

Mike Brown (Harlequins)

Danny Care (Harlequins)

Elliot Daly (Wasps)

Owen Farrell (Saracens)

George Ford (Bath Rugby)

Alex Goode (Saracens)

Mike Haley (Sale Sharks)

Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)

Joe Marchant (Harlequins)

Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)

Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)

Dan Robson (Wasps)

Semesa Rokoduguni (Bath Rugby)

Joe Simpson (Wasps)

Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs)

Ben Te’o (Worcester Warriors)

Manu Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)

Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby)

Marland Yarde (Harlequins)

Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)

Original post:

Both are pretty even, I think LT's assessment is pretty much on the money. The biggest issue is both can have drops and form and both have times where their basics really aren't good enough.

englandglory4ever wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Well - yes I guess Slade could be interchangeable with Farrell with little drop off and you'd still have similar skill sets.
That being the case Slade would make an ideal bench option.  (Again if showing old form before injury).

But can Slade kick like Farrell? Farrell's kicking was a major factor in England's 3 v 0 white washing of Australia. He missed 3 or 4 kicks across all 3 games.

Farrell was the standout kicker in the big three-test series. He got 23 out of 26 kicks, a rate of 88%.
Foley got 10 out of 16, or 63%.
Jackson got 14 out of 18, or 78%.
Jantjes got 10 out of 14, or 71%. (Combrinck and Lambie also took kicks at goals, getting 1/1 and 1/2 respectively).
Cruden got 8 out of 11, or 73%.
Barrett got 10 out of 12, or 83%.
Biggar got 9 out of 11, or 82%.

I think Farrell somehow is also turning into one of the key leaders in the England team.

lostinwales wrote:I think Farrell somehow is also turning into one of the key leaders in the England team.

And Haskells best friend

Yea you have to feel a little sorry for Faz, Haskell seems to love taking the mick out of him I think he makes it pretty easy though! Maybe not quite at Ben Youngs level yet though.

Daily Telegraph - click text for story wrote:There was once a time when George Ford used to do Owen Farrell’s French homework before the pair could go off kicking a rugby ball after school.

This could be an indication of Owen's persuasiveness and leadership. However as Ford is 18 months younger than Owen, also shows something else.

LondonTiger wrote:

Daily Telegraph - click text for story wrote:There was once a time when George Ford used to do Owen Farrell’s French homework before the pair could go off kicking a rugby ball after school.

This could be an indication of Owen's persuasiveness and leadership. However as Ford is 18 months younger than Owen, also shows something else.

err Ford is smart?

That would be the generous supposition

Following signing of the new agreement between PRL and RFU, EPS will be 45 (may mean no Saxons EPS) and training squad will be 36.

Interesting, training as a larger group will be more inclusive and give those in current Saxons group a real chance of impressing the bosses against the incumbents.

Are there any other details about the new agreement? Or is it pretty much the same but with different numbers?

Details, well link to plus my highlights package, over on club section.

So, 45 basically top 3 in every position (give or take some variation in a few positions)
I am sure I have missed some chaps or got them in wrong positions

1. Mako.V, Marler, Mullan
2. Hartley, George, LCD
3. Cole, Hill, Sinkler
4. Kruis, Lawes, Barrow
5. Itoje, Launchbury, Attwood (Saxons incumbent)
6. Robshaw, T.Harrison, Ewers
7. Haskell, Clifford, Kvesic
8. Billy V, N.Hughes, Don Armond
9. Youngs, Care, Robson
10. Ford, Farrell, Cips
11. Nowell, Yarde, Rockodunguni
12. Slade, M.Tuilagi, O.Devoto
13.Joseph, E.Daley, Sam Hill,
14. Watson, Wade, Alex Lewington
15. Brown, Goode, Mike Haley

Unlucky to miss out -
Genge (Mullan has impressed recently)
Tommy Taylor (may swap with LCD),
Alec Hepburn
Underhill (depending on qualification issue)
B.Morgan (Could swap with Armond)
Mitch Lees

Looks pretty spot on bar Barrow.

And forgot Ben Teo being drafted in there - May be in for Devoto.

Barrow was a bit of a guess - thought he looked good for club and I know Charlie Ewels was in the Saxons but don't remember him standing out, but given a bit more first team action for Bath could develop into something special.
To be honest I wouldn't have Attwood in there either, but as yet there are still plenty of guys that have been injured that could come in depending on form - Barrow, Slater, Kitchener, Mitch Lees, One of the Falcons locks (cant remember his name).
I've given up on Charlie Matthews at Quins.

Harry Mallinder?

Well this is where it gets tricky GF.
I think Harry has real ability (as a 12 that can cover 10). But I have also seen him disappear in games for Saints! Perfectly normal for a guy developing his game at a young age, and he was outstanding in the U20s.
Would he be in front of Slade or a fit Manu? unlikely......but he could have Devoto's spot.

Does EJ want that 3rd place to be a development/project spot or does he want it to be the genuine 3rd choice option?

Think Farrell is the 1st choice at 12, and second choice 10

Slade would be the next man at both positions for me, Teo the 3rd 12

I'd then have Joseph, Daly, Tuilagi as the 3 13s in that order

Yes it does get tricky I agree.

I had one of my pals from Northampton staying with us at the weekend, hes a season ticket holder down there. He thinks Mallinder will actually be a 10. Was interested to hear that. I thought 12 would suit him better.

AS to Jones selections...I think he will play each case on its own. But in special cases where top talent Is coming through I suspect he'll fast track them in.

Interesting my pal also said there was a winger coming through Packham I think he said who looks electric.

Except I am sure I read somewhere that EJ saw Manu as a 12!

propdavid_london wrote:Except I am sure I read somewhere that EJ saw Manu as a 12!

Yeah I think I saw that too

Can't see him playing much 12 for Leicester with Toomua coming in, and the current model of a second fly half at 12 seems to be working a treat

http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-premiership-rugby-sign-new-professional-game-agreement/

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yes it does get tricky I agree.

I had one of my pals from Northampton staying with us at the weekend, hes a season ticket holder down there. He thinks Mallinder will actually be a 10. Was interested to hear that. I thought 12 would suit him better.

The Saints season ticket holders I know reckon Papa Jim views Ickle Harry as primarily a FB

No mention of exceptional circumstances clause!

propdavid_london wrote:Except I am sure I read somewhere that EJ saw Manu as a 12!

Yeah but then I'm pretty sure he said that Farrell was a fly half too

Really...a FB?

Well why not? Size, immense boot, very good runner....I could cope with him at 15.

propdavid_london wrote:http://www.englandrugby.com/news/rfu-premiership-rugby-sign-new-professional-game-agreement/

The important bit here is that its now a 45 man Senior EPS with squads of 36 for the international release periodsm, and the Saxons cut to just 20 (so same number in total, just more on the greater access level).

Harry Malinder as a 15 is an interesting one - that is a position that he could make his own!
Would have to surpass Foden at Saints though.
But with Brown and Goode both coming into criticism (some harsh and some valid) and the speculation that Watson may eventually transition to full back - there could be an opening for him in the EPS there.
My feeling is that he would need more prem time in that position though. As ever, he could be a victim of his own versatility.

Haley is IMO our best future at 15, Mallinder should be looking at 12.

Would have Haley and Hammersley ahead of Mallinder in terms of 15 potential.

Would like to see
45 EPS
1) Vunipola, Marler, Genge
2) Hartley, George, Taylor
3) Cole, Hill, Brookes
4) Kruis, Launchbury, Attwood
5) Itoje, Lawes, Williams
6) Robshaw, Clifford, Harrison
7) Haskell, Kvesic, Underhill/Evans (depending on if Underhill can be picked)
8) Vunipola, Beaumont, Hughes
9) Youngs, Care, Robson
10) Ford, Farrell, Cips
11) Nowell, Roko, Yarde
12) Manu, T'eo, Mallinder
13) JJ, Daly, Slade
14) Watson, May, Wade
15) Brown, Haley, Goode

mix between def 23 players, Strong squad players and developing youngsters like Underhill/Evans, Genge, Haley and Mallinder

Saxons 20
1) Hepburn
2) Taylor/Dickie, Walker
3) Sinkler, Stuart
4) Ewels
5) Barrow, Robinson
6) Ewers,
7) Evans/Fraser,
8) Chisholm
9) Simpson, Cook
10) Burns
11) M.Watson,
12) Devoto,
13) James, Thompkins
14) Lewington
15) Hammersley

I like it Welly...good shout!

Like the look of a lot of that Welly apart from a few -
Brookes needs to have an injury clear run or get his head straight - half the time it looks like he doesn't even want to be on the pitch
Mullan I think deserves to be in the EPS after great performance in Oz. Genge and Sinkler both need gametime.
Teo, we still no nothing about really - but if he hits form straight away then fine.......would prefer him in the Saxons to start with.
Attwood.....I wasn't sure about him but included him in my initial selection too!
Fraser in Saxons...really needs a prolonged period without injury.

Who's the Williams at lock Welly?

Welly wrote:
9) Youngs, Care, Robson
10) Ford, Farrell, Cips
11) Nowell, Roko, Yarde
12) Manu, T'eo, Mallinder
13) JJ, Daly, Slade
14) Watson, May, Wade
15) Brown, Haley, Goode

I would have thought that the Six Nations and Australia tour had shown that England need twelve who can pass and kick. Mallinder might be that player and also have the power to make busts but needs time. For the moment I think that means Farrell and Slade. I think playing Manu would be a serious step backwards.

Much as I love watching him I just do not see Wade stepping up. He is always going to be a defensive liability. Would May stick to Jones' systems? Who knows? If he can't he will be out.

I think playing Manu would be a serious step backwards.

A fit and on fire Manu is a serious player to have in the side if used in the right way - not just as a battering ram...

Much as I love watching him I just do not see Wade stepping up. He is always going to be a defensive liability.

He wasn't a liability on the recent Saxons tour of South Africa...

Did you watch the Saxons games? Wade's defence was much better than it's been previously - I'd go so far as to say notably better than most of the other players on the pitch. I have had my doubts but if he continues to play like that he deserves a chance.

I am not sure that Kvesic has done his chances any good, though. He looked good at the breakdown but unsure of himself in open play, even when carrying.

Eddie's said he will fast track a couple from the JRWC squad - probably between Mallinder, Evans, Williams and Marchant - so there is a reasonable chance Mallinder will be looked at. He also said he sees Hughes as a 6 - albeit with some coaching needs - so I would expect to see Hughes in at 6. Clifford is seen as a 7 or 8. Harrison played as a 7.

I'd see the back row options as being more along the lines of:

6. Robshaw, Ewers, Hughes
7.(Haskell), Underhill, Harrison, Evans/Kvesic
8. Vunipola, Clifford, Armond

Assuming Underhill is available. If not, then Beaumont might come in as another 8 option.

propdavid_london wrote:Like the look of a lot of that Welly apart from a few -
Brookes needs to have an injury clear run or get his head straight - half the time it looks like he doesn't even want to be on the pitch
Mullan I think deserves to be in the EPS after great performance in Oz.  Genge and Sinkler both need gametime.
Teo, we still no nothing about really - but if he hits form straight away then fine.......would prefer him in the Saxons to start with.
Attwood.....I wasn't sure about him but included him in my initial selection too!
Fraser in Saxons...really needs a prolonged period without injury.

RE Mullan What great performance in Oz he didn't play for more than 16 mins in a game.

T'eo is more what I think Jones might do.

Given the new 45 man EPS and 20 man Saxons squad, I'd use EPS for 'ready now' and Saxons to assess potential. I'd look for 4 of each position for specialist positions (Front row, HB, etc) and decent cover for less specialist (centre, etc):

EPS

LH - Marler, Mako, Mullen, Genge
Hooker - Hartley (c), George, Cowan-Dickie, Taylor
TH - Cole, Hill, Brookes, Thomas
SR - Itoje, Launchbury, Kruis, Lawes, Slater
Flanker - Haskell (Underhill), Robshaw, Clifford, Kvesic, Ewers
No 8 - Billy, Beaumont, Hughes

25 Forwards

SH - Youngs, Care, Robson, Simpson
FH - Farrell, Ford, Cipriani
C - Slade, Tuilagi, Joseph, Daly
W - Nowell, Yarde, May, Wade, Rokodunguni, Ashton
FB - Brown, Goode, Watson

20 Backs - 45 in total

Saxons
Auterac
Walker (U20)
Sinkler
Barrow
Attwood
Ewels
Evans (U20)
Harrison
Fraser
Morgan
Armand

Spencer
Mallinder (U20)
Marchant (U20)
Williams (U20)
Te'o
Tompkins
Haley
Lewington
Hill

No way Ashton will be in it IMO.

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I think playing Manu would be a serious step backwards.

A fit and on fire Manu is a serious player to have in the side if used in the right way - not just as a battering ram...

He will need to learn to pass and kick. I have never seen any indication that he is anything other than a battering ram. Don't get me wrong he is an exceptionally good battering ram but I do not see that succeeding any more at the top level. Wales demonstrate with Roberts that a team with a limited twelve is a limited team that is easy to defend against.

The Telegraph is reporting that Underhill is ruled out by the new club deal.

However, the eight-year deal between the clubs and the RFU, which was announced on Sunday, includes a new definition of the exceptional circumstance clause, formalising it as purely an injury crisis.

“When we wrote the first agreement it was always injury related, we just never wrote it in as specific as that,” said Mark McCafferty, the Premiership Rugby chief executive. “We have clarified it only in the sense of writing what we had in mind eight years ago. If you get big injuries ahead of playing a tier-one country – maybe the next in line is inexperienced and almost to a point of safety issues. Under those circumstances that would definitely be exceptional and you might have to look elsewhere.”

I think this deal is largely positive, but I also think that clearing this up is very important and we can now put the clause to bed.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/rugby-union/2016/07/25/osprey-sam-underhill-ruled-out-for-england-by-new-club-deal/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter

some kindly club make sure we put in an unrefusable offer on Underhill in the future

Also that is what we needed for the exceptional circumstances clause

propdavid_london wrote:Harry Malinder as a 15 is an interesting one - that is a position that he could make his own!
Would have to surpass Foden at Saints though.  
But with Brown and Goode both coming into criticism (some harsh and some valid) and the speculation that Watson may eventually transition to full back - there could be an opening for him in the EPS there.  
My feeling is that he would need more prem time in that position though. As ever, he could be a victim of his own versatility.

Greenwood started out as a 15 before moving to centre, it's a good way to hone a lot of the basics of being a back, and to have time on the ball with less pressure.

I think he'd be wasted there in the long run though, at least for England. Farrell had shown that you can play a different position at the highest level if you have the skillset. I wouldn't be surprised to always see Mallinder with a 12 on his back For England.

Welly wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Like the look of a lot of that Welly apart from a few -
Brookes needs to have an injury clear run or get his head straight - half the time it looks like he doesn't even want to be on the pitch
Mullan I think deserves to be in the EPS after great performance in Oz.  Genge and Sinkler both need gametime.
Teo, we still no nothing about really - but if he hits form straight away then fine.......would prefer him in the Saxons to start with.
Attwood.....I wasn't sure about him but included him in my initial selection too!
Fraser in Saxons...really needs a prolonged period without injury.

RE Mullan What great performance in Oz he didn't play for more than 16 mins in a game.

T'eo is more what I think Jones might do.

Mullan and Hill both performed off the bench, showing no drop off and maintaining game intensity. For me, that merits inclusion in the next EPS.

Exiledinborders wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I think playing Manu would be a serious step backwards.

A fit and on fire Manu is a serious player to have in the side if used in the right way - not just as a battering ram...

He will need to learn to pass and kick. I have never seen any indication that he is anything other than a battering ram. Don't get me wrong he is an exceptionally good battering ram but I do not see that succeeding any more at the top level. Wales demonstrate with Roberts that a team with a limited twelve is a limited team that is easy to defend against.

Roberts brings other things - like the defensive organisation, but he's seldom a real threat unless close to the line because he's slow. On a good day he can tie up defenders for other attackers but he's not really an offensive threat. On the other hand the Tuilagi that used to play for England is a real threat. He had the best acceleration in the England squad and crucially scored tries. He hits gaps as well as people, its just that people are always there to run at and gaps are not. If he can get back to full form and fitness he's the one guy who will definitely force his way into the team.

yappysnap wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Harry Malinder as a 15 is an interesting one - that is a position that he could make his own!
Would have to surpass Foden at Saints though.  
But with Brown and Goode both coming into criticism (some harsh and some valid) and the speculation that Watson may eventually transition to full back - there could be an opening for him in the EPS there.  
My feeling is that he would need more prem time in that position though. As ever, he could be a victim of his own versatility.

Greenwood started out as a 15 before moving to centre, it's a good way to hone a lot of the basics of being a back, and to have time on the ball with less pressure.

I think he'd be wasted there in the long run though, at least for England. Farrell had shown that you can play a different position at the highest level if you have the skillset. I wouldn't be surprised to always see Mallinder with a 12 on his back For England.

Greenwood was a schoolboy 10 and was told he was a "carthorse who would never play for England"... better examples would be Cipriani, who played a couple of seasons at 15 for Wasps, and Goode, who started as a 10 but converted to 15 once it became clear that Farrell would be the long term Saracens 10.

Mallinder could be an option at 15 but as you say I don't think it's right for him in the long term and I am not convinced that he has the pace / change of direction to cover the defensive duties at the highest level.

A fully fit and firing Manu is a fantastic thing when he is on your side. Does anyone know what his status is? Will he be having a full pre-season with Tigers? My personal feeling is that he is likely to be in the EPS but should really focus on getting a consistent run of games and get form/confidence back.

The same can be said for a number of fringe players - Freddie Burns on form will be good competition for Ford and Farrell.
Slade has shown that he could do with a decent run of games to get form back.

Poorfour wrote:

yappysnap wrote:

propdavid_london wrote:Harry Malinder as a 15 is an interesting one - that is a position that he could make his own!
Would have to surpass Foden at Saints though.  
But with Brown and Goode both coming into criticism (some harsh and some valid) and the speculation that Watson may eventually transition to full back - there could be an opening for him in the EPS there.  
My feeling is that he would need more prem time in that position though. As ever, he could be a victim of his own versatility.

Greenwood started out as a 15 before moving to centre, it's a good way to hone a lot of the basics of being a back, and to have time on the ball with less pressure.

I think he'd be wasted there in the long run though, at least for England. Farrell had shown that you can play a different position at the highest level if you have the skillset. I wouldn't be surprised to always see Mallinder with a 12 on his back For England.

Greenwood was a schoolboy 10 and was told he was a "carthorse who would never play for England"... better examples would be Cipriani, who played a couple of seasons at 15 for Wasps, and Goode, who started as a 10 but converted to 15 once it became clear that Farrell would be the long term Saracens 10.

Mallinder could be an option at 15 but as you say I don't think it's right for him in the long term and I am not convinced that he has the pace / change of direction to cover the defensive duties at the highest level.

Agreed, for me he looks like a good option at 12, he is a big lad, he has a huge boot and a nice passing game, I'd put him in the extended squad. At the moment Farrell is clearly no.1 choice at 12 so I would have Slade in reserve and then Malinder, they are relatively similar players and all give a second goal kicking option.

I watched a lot of the U20s and he stood out.

Agree that Mallinder hasn't a real future at 15 or 10 really. He needs game time at 12, he could be a real star there.

In my opinion Mallinder should stick to becoming a 12. Not as if England have numerous top class 12s.

As for Manu, no point chatting about because he's not been fully fit for England in a long time, can't rely on him. England have done fine without him, if he's fit, great but not going to be upset if he's not fully fit yet again because that's the norm.

Exiledinborders wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:

I think playing Manu would be a serious step backwards.

A fit and on fire Manu is a serious player to have in the side if used in the right way - not just as a battering ram...

He will need to learn to pass and kick. I have never seen any indication that he is anything other than a battering ram. Don't get me wrong he is an exceptionally good battering ram but I do not see that succeeding any more at the top level. Wales demonstrate with Roberts that a team with a limited twelve is a limited team that is easy to defend against.

I disagree that he will need to learn to kick...especially if he has players all around him who can kick. Farrell, Ford, Daly, Mallinder etc etc.

His passing can improve but its not appalling. He offloads very well.

Its more about how well he is used. He's very good hitting gaps as well and is almost impossible to stop in those situations.
The biggest problem is we haven't seen him fully fit and match fit for so long. He may never make it back...or could come back stronger than ever.